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Jammie Thomas May Face RIAA Trial Alone
Posted by
Soulskill
on Sat May 16, 2009 04:12 AM
from the suspicious-timing dept.
from the suspicious-timing dept.
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "With her trial coming up on June 15th, Jammie Thomas has received a motion by her lawyer to withdraw from the highly publicized case, Capitol Records v. Thomas. Ms. Thomas said in a written declaration (PDF) obtained from her by her lawyer that she was not opposed to the lawyer's withdrawal, and waived any hearing on the matter. The court papers submitted by the lawyer (PDF) also indicated that the RIAA was not opposed to the withdrawal — i.e. it graciously consented to Ms. Thomas having no legal representation — but was opposed to any continuance (i.e. the RIAA wants to make sure that Ms. Thomas does not have sufficient time to find other legal representation, or to prepare to handle the trial herself, or to enable new counsel to prepare to handle the trial). Nice of them."
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RIAA Victim Jammie Thomas Gets a New Lawyer 241 comments
newtley writes "Only days after Brian Toder, her previous legal representative, had decided discretion was the better part of valour, leaving her fend for herself against the RIAA, Jammie Thomas says another lawyer has come forward with an offer of pro bono help. He's K.A.D. Camara from Camara & Sibley in Houston, Texas, says Jammie. And, 'He's the youngest person in history to graduate from Harvard Law school with honors,' she points out. Nor will her retrial be delayed, as was expected. It'll now go forward in June 15, as slated. 'I'm so happy!' Jammie said."
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Hmm (Score:5, Interesting)
Bought off or warned off?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Well, on the one hand, he's apparently withdrawing so he can retire to his personal Caribbean island. On the other hand, he cites as the reason for his sudden retirement stress the death of his two dogs and favorite horse. So I'd say "both".
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Interesting)
I have to admit I'm sort of puzzled about this whole thing. I'm not a Lawyer, but I would happily offer to assist if I was; I've done loads of non-profit volunteer work. A lawyer friend in Nashville recently told me he would volunteer 80 hours to any RIAA case, if it was local.
They are HATED, and some of the people who hate them are Lawyers; there should be volunteers coming out of the woodwork.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
A lawyer friend in Nashville recently told me he would volunteer 80 hours to any RIAA case, if it was local.
Lawyer... friend? Told you, and you believed him?
The fact that nobody HAS stepped out of the woodwork yet suggests that, you know, nobody REALLY wants to get involved.
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Interesting)
They are HATED, and some of the people who hate them are Lawyers; there should be volunteers coming out of the woodwork.
I think the problem here may be that Jammie Thomas' case looks like a lost cause. As I recall the RIAA has said publicly that they'll have no problem proving actual infringement (they had Media Sentry actually download some files from Thomas' alleged share on Kazaa), there was a serious possibility that Thomas may have deliberately handed over a hard drive that wasn't the original one as well. And don't forget that the jury very obviously thought she was lying, they could have awarded only $750 a song damages, but they chose $9,250 a song.
While the RIAA is evil, Thomas isn't doing those who oppose the RIAA a favor by going to trial again. She's very likely to loose, and that'll set a precedent in the RIAA's favor.
It is pretty scummy of the RIAA to oppose a continuance though, but then again, we knew they were evil already so it's not surprising.
Parent
Bad case (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not terribly convinced Jammie Thomas is a great case to fight the RIAA with;
Have I misunderstood the paperwork? reading between the lines it appears her lawyer is withdrawing and he is concerned that he has information contradictory to the line of argument his client wants put forward, and as an officer of the court, money matters aside, he feels he cannot go on.
Re:Bad case (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not terribly convinced Jammie Thomas is a great case to fight the RIAA with;
Have I misunderstood the paperwork? reading between the lines it appears her lawyer is withdrawing and he is concerned that he has information contradictory to the line of argument his client wants put forward, and as an officer of the court, money matters aside, he feels he cannot go on.
I read it differently. The motion is filed for in camera review, because it contains information that would be of use to the plaintiff, so he wants to keep it limited to just the judge. It's quite common for a lawyer to have information that contradicts his "official" stance in the case, so such information by itself probably wouldn't constitute a reason to withdraw.
It appears that money *is* the primary factor here. Jammie Thomas owes him a lot of money, and even though she's promised to make payments, he doesn't want to allow her to dig herself in deeper. He tried once before to withdraw from the case, but the court refused him permission to do so. This may have had something to do with his rather lackluster performance during the previous trial...
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
It appears that money *is* the primary factor here. Jammie Thomas owes him a lot of money, and even though she's promised to make payments, he doesn't want to allow her to dig herself in deeper. He tried once before to withdraw from the case, but the court refused him permission to do so.
He's such a nice guy that he doesn't want to see her put herself into terrible debt, BUT he's not such a nice guy as to give her his services at an affordable rate?
Re:Bad case (Score:5, Informative)
He's a nice guy because so far he's done almost $130,000 worth of work on this case, for which he will never get paid for, as he mentions on page 3 this PDF file [beckermanlegal.com].
He also says this:
"In its previous Order the Court noted "that the Defendant has offered to continue
to make regular, monthly payments to Toder, which evinces a good faith effort, on her
part, to make good on her debt to him, and is also an indication that communications have
not, in fact, broken down between Toder, and his client, to such an extent as to warrant a
withdrawal." Order of August 31, 1997 (Dkt. No. 48). Please see Declaration of Brian
N. Toder filed concurrently (under seal) with the instant motion which demonstrate the
opposite.
So when he first tried to leave the case, it looks like the court said "No, she says she's gonna try to pay monthly sums, and you guys can work it out". Looks like she's not keeping her end of the bargain.
Parent
Re:HAHAHAHA (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't agree with the way things are working out for Thomas, but don't dare say this lawyer hasn't incurred a very real loss.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
He's such a nice guy that he doesn't want to see her put herself into terrible debt, BUT he's not such a nice guy as to give her his services at an affordable rate?
Who said anything about him being a nice guy? He doesn't want her to go deeper in debt to him, because he's not sure that he'll ever get paid...
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, I think you have, she can't afford to retain her lawyer. It is unlikely she is going to be able to pay $100,000 of lawyers fees.
where's the support from slashdot? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:where's the support from slashdot? (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe because no one particular feels like supporting someone who, apparently, is
"guilty as charged".
The facts of this case are very hard to dispute. If you read the comments of the jury, the outcome of the case is not in doubt.
I think people are far more likely to support someone who might, actually, not be guilty, or is having their rights trounced upon.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
4. Does she provide a verifiable accounting of the money received? Once her coffers overflow, good for her, but then my money might be better spent on another worthy cause.
So this is justice in America (Score:5, Insightful)
Is this the kind of justice we can expect in America? Having your life financially ruined by astronomical damages for copying songs?! How can any sane judge with any sense of justice even allow this to continue?
We all knew stories about backward country with religious zealot wielding harsh laws punishing poor oppressed victim for seemingly trivial offense, but this kind of cases are telling you the America is not that much different, it is just that corporates+money have replaced the religious zealots+dogma.
Lawyers are like arms dealers (Score:2, Insightful)
They play both sides, and cut their losses and run if things get sour.
Our NYCL makes out to be a good guy (and I'm sure he is personally), but don't get confused by the fact that he's defending "our side" of the battle against the RIAA. He won't do anything that isn't in his business interests either. Ethics don't come into it for lawyers.
So yes, this is the state of "justice" in America. It's a business.
(Worth noting that Europe is somewhat unique in the world in this area. While EU justice is far from
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't personally know Mr. Beckerman, but based on what I've I'd say that ethics enters into nearly everything he does.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So this is justice in America (Score:5, Informative)
Is this the kind of justice we can expect in America? Having your life financially ruined by astronomical damages for copying songs?! How can any sane judge with any sense of justice even allow this to continue?
This particular judge seems to be aware of the problem. On September 24, 2008, he wrote [blogspot.com]:
"The Court would be remiss if it did not take this opportunity to implore Congress to amend the Copyright Act to address liability and damages in peer to peer network cases.... The defendant is an individual, a consumer. She is not a business. She sought no profit from her acts..... [T]he damages awarded in this case are wholly disproportionate to the damages suffered by Plaintiffs."
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re:So this is justice in America (Score:5, Insightful)
I will.
The way it's supposed to work (in the US, anyway) is that when someone creates a work, it's owned by society. However, understanding that people need to eat, they're given an exclusive right to distribute what they create for a *limited* time, the idea being that it will encourage them to keep creating new works, but that the work will revert back to society where it will enrich the cultural pool. Problem is, the whole concept of "limited time" is now one of a mere technicality, as copyright terms extend well beyond the length of the author's lifetime. Apparently, as long as Congress doesn't define the term of copyright as "forever", it's not considered to be at odds with the intent of the Constitution. This is ridiculous.
Distributing a tune recorded by Britney Spears should probably be considered copyright infringement. All of her "work" is recent, and she probably should expect to have at least a few more years of copyright to profit from. Distributing a tune recorded by the Beatles most definitely should not. In the 45 or so years since their songs were recorded, not only have they recouped their production costs, but all four members became fabulously wealthy as a result. There is/was no further need to provide the financial incentive to create for them (especially since half are dead now), and continuing to grant copyright on their works has now become a very real theft (in the literal sense) from society.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Are you intending to argue that listening to music that was produced by someone else (at a cost to the producer) is an inherent natural right of human beings and therefore downloading it (without compensation to the producer) constitutes no moral or ethical injustice?
Yes. That basically sums up my opinion.
Real injustice is to restrict the poor from experiencing all the culture ever produced even though it is both technically and economically (the poor can afford to pay for the copying himself by using file sharing) possible. Of course, we don't want the creators to not get paid anything for their work, but keeping a pay per copy system is simply unproductive in a world where we can make copies so easily. It is nothing more than destructive luddite behavior.
If you're a programmer, have any juicy source code for me to look at?
You can take
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So don't copy songs if you cannot afford the damages. Copying songs is not necessary to one's life.
That's a separate issue. Even if nobody ever violated this law, the damages allowable under the law are still utterly ridiculous. Bad law is bad law, and bad law needs to be changed.
Donation site (Score:5, Insightful)
Why doesn't Ms. Thomas set up a legal fund donation page via PayPal, for example? I'd contribute some funds to this cause. It deserves attention.
Has she sought legal aid? Or the support of the ACLU, EFF or a law school? Her time is running short. This is an unfortunate situation because the likelihood of setting an important precedent very favourable to the RIAA is quite high, now.
Public defenders (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Only bad lawyers walk away from a guilty party just because of their guilt. Hell that's what corp. lawyers could paid in the millions for.
More than likely a financial, reputation, personal, or conflicting issue.
Re: (Score:2)
Believe it or not, ethical lawyers do exist. I've got some lawyer friends who won't take a case to defend a guilty party. It's got nothing to do with wanting a 100% win track record, and everything to do with feeling that it's wrong to get a guilty party off on a technicality.
Re:When your lawyer withdraws, you're probably gui (Score:5, Interesting)
When your lawyer won't even stick around to see you get torn apart in the courtroom, perhaps it's time to cut a deal.
I'm sure she tried hard to do that. But what the RIAA has no doubt done is to raise the settlement bar to a number she can't afford. Partly out of retribution. Partly out of a desire not to see the case settle at this juncture, because, in its present posture, the case is an embarrassment to the RIAA and a stern rebuke to their moronic legal theory. Partly because they know she's defenseless, having either no lawyer or having a lawyer who's there only involuntarily.
I know these guys. This is how they work. They smell blood.
Parent
Re:When your lawyer withdraws, you're probably gui (Score:5, Interesting)
Ray, I'm curious why you haven't said much at all as to why her lawyer might be withdrawing from the case. Aside from your customary, thinly-veiled swipes at the plaintiffs, I don't see anything addressing this. If her case is as strong as you have been implying consistently in your comments over the past months (and I think I've read every single one of them), it certainly seems odd that an attorney would bail on a slam-dunk case like this one. Surely there has to be another (more objective) explanation or two?
Thanks, /HJ
p.s. I'm not trying to be a troll, and I happen to dislike (and disagree with) the RIAA and their tactics as much as anyone else here. But it's equally hard for me to stomach an ostensibly neutral (in the sense of not being involved with this case), eminently qualified observer such as yourself constantly cheerleading for the defense, while giving no quarter whatsoever to the possibility that the opposing side's arguments might have at least some merit.
Parent
Re:When your lawyer withdraws, you're probably gui (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not trying to be a troll, and I happen to dislike (and disagree with) the RIAA and their tactics as much as anyone else here. But....
I suspect you are a troll, but...
1. He is leaving because he hasn't been paid.
2. I have never expressed any opinion about the underlying case; I am not familiar with the facts of this particular case.
Parent
Re:When your lawyer withdraws, you're probably gui (Score:5, Insightful)
So which is it?
Parent
Re:When your lawyer withdraws, you're probably gui (Score:5, Interesting)
the case is an embarrassment to the RIAA and a stern rebuke to their moronic legal theory
I have never expressed any opinion about the underlying case; I am not familiar with the facts of this particular case.
So which is it?
Fair question. Let me clarify.
I have never expressed any opinion about the underlying facts. I.e., I don't know what Ms. Thomas did or didn't do, or what was going on with her computer, etc.
I do know that (a) Jacobson's testimony, upon which plaintiffs' entire case rested, was bogus and inadmissible; (b) the plaintiffs' legal theory, which has now been rejected by the Court, was bogus; (c) plaintiffs have no evidence that defendant was a "distributor'; and (d) their statutory damages theory is unlikely to pass constitutional muster.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
I do know that (a) Jacobson's testimony, upon which plaintiffs' entire case rested, was bogus and inadmissible; (b) the plaintiffs' legal theory, which has now been rejected by the Court, was bogus; (c) plaintiffs have no evidence that defendant was a "distributor'; and (d) their statutory damages theory is unlikely to pass constitutional muster.
Given all that, we're back where we started. Strong case, high profile, "evil" opponent - the sort of case many lawyers take pro-bono anyway. When her attorney
Re:When your lawyer withdraws, you're probably gui (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You do know the difference between criminal and civil law, don't you?
Re:When your lawyer withdraws, you're probably gui (Score:5, Interesting)
Ray, I'm curious why you haven't said much at all as to why her lawyer might be withdrawing from the case. Aside from your customary, thinly-veiled swipes at the plaintiffs, I don't see anything addressing this. If her case is as strong as you have been implying consistently in your comments over the past months (and I think I've read every single one of them), it certainly seems odd that an attorney would bail on a slam-dunk case like this one. Surely there has to be another (more objective) explanation or two?
Not NYCL (and IANAL to boot), but I don't think this case is a "slam-dunk". Yes, the judge messed up big time with that jury instruction, and with a binding precedent that the plaintiff must show actual distribution (as opposed to "making available"), the RIAA's case doesn't look all the rosy. But there's still one issue that I don't believe has been resolved - do the downloads made by MediaSentry (under whatever name they're using this week) constitute unlawful distribution? Because that is the *only* distribution that the RIAA's goon squad can actually prove, and there's some case law that seems to say that the distribution has to be to the public, and distribution to agents of the copyright holder don't count.
Parent
Re:When your lawyer withdraws, you're probably gui (Score:4, Insightful)
MediaSentry is an unlicensed investigator. As such, any evidence they gained is inadmissable.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
MediaSentry is an unlicensed investigator. As such, any evidence they gained is inadmissable.
Tell it to da judge. The case against Jammie Thomas is based *solely* upon the "evidence" provided by MediaSentry. Yeah, they have a hard drive, with songs on it, but there's no proof that these were offered for upload except for MediaSentry's word.
I'm not sure if this was even argued by her attorney...
Re: (Score:2)
The settlement attempts failed. A trial date looms. Defendant's counsel has been working as the Court has ordered, having expended thus far $129,485 of uncompensated-for time that will never be recovered, coupled with the likelihood that a similar, additional amount will be incurred if ordered to continue representation of defendant who originally caused this firm by means of false representations.
Re:When your lawyer withdraws, you're probably gui (Score:5, Insightful)
Reading the Toder memorandum, it seems that Ja[m]mie's lawyer isn't getting paid.
That's what it's all about. Most lawyers, like most other people, don't like to work if they're not getting paid for it (unless that's what they agreed to do, which he didn't). Lawyers like anyone else have families to support and bills to be paid.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
or maybe she is guilty as hell, her lawyer knows it, and didn't want to fight a battle he would inevitably lose badly?
But no, as she is being prosecuted by the record companies, she MUST be innocent right?
Amazing though it sounds, a lot of people DO pirate music, some of them get caught, and a very few of them are stupid enough to try and feign innocence in that situation.
Re: (Score:2)
You sound like a RIAA lawyer and don't seem to realise what agent of the court implies. Lawyers are expected to ensure that the trial is fair above presenting their client's case in the best light. This work
Re:Put your opinion in a reply, not in summary (Score:5, Informative)
If you have some opinion on the topic, reply like everyone else.
Usually I just report facts. Occasionally I put in an opinion, clearly identifiable as such. The Slashdot editors would take it out, or reject the story altogether, if they found it inappropriate. If you find it inappropriate, sorry.
Parent
opinion in the summary (Score:2)
Is any of the following untrue; a) the lawyer wants to withdraw, b) persuaded Thomson to sign a declaration that she wouldn't object, c) the lawyer published such declaration, d) Thomson is now without legal counsel, e) the RIAA is opposed to continuance, f) Thomson has insufficient time in acquiring
Re: (Score:2)
I included enough to establish context. You left out the sarcastic ending, "nice of them". Had I simply quoted that last sentence, it wouldn't have been clear how it meshed with the rest.
I get the idea that I should have saved this criticism for a less-well-known submitter who isn't put on a podium by moderators. I really appreciate having NewYorkCountryLawyer as a contributor to Slashdot, but I wasn't going to play favorites when criticising a common practice in article summaries.
NewYorkCountryLawyer d
Re:opinion in the summary (Score:5, Informative)
I included enough to establish context. You left out the sarcastic ending, "nice of them". Had I simply quoted that last sentence, it wouldn't have been clear how it meshed with the rest. I get the idea that I should have saved this criticism for a less-well-known submitter who isn't put on a podium by moderators. I really appreciate having NewYorkCountryLawyer as a contributor to Slashdot, but I wasn't going to play favorites when criticising a common practice in article summaries. NewYorkCountryLawyer does have a point that I really should criticize the editors, as they are the ultimate gatekeepers. So in retrospect, I apologize for the criticism and hope to better target it in the future.
It doesn't matter how "well-known" I am, or in what regard I am held. If I was wrong I was wrong. Maybe it wasn't the apex of journalism to throw in my comment "Nice of them"; but it was hard for me to resist after explaining that the RIAA's position was:
1. OK for her to have no lawyer to help her.
2. Not OK for her to be able to (a) find a new lawyer, (b) give her new lawyer enough time to prepare, or (c) if she can't find a lawyer, for her to prepare.
3. ????
4. Profit!
After all, I have to have some fun, too.
Parent
Re:Put your opinion in a reply, not in summary (Score:4, Informative)
Please, I am not interested in reading someone's blog here
Slashdot IS a blog. Maybe you should go somewhere else?
Parent