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Escient (CDDB company) trying to monopolize market?

Posted by Hemos on Mon Mar 08, 1999 04:38 AM
from the bad-news-for-bonzo dept.
Media Music
Well, upon opening my inbox this morning, I found a delightful letter detailing the license agreement that Escient, the company that "owns" the CDDB format sent out to everyone. Click below if you want to read it, but it appears that they are making a play to get the monopoly of the disc database market. *sigh*.
Escient, the company that currently "owns" the CDDB protocol for online disc track lookup, has just contacted cd-player developers with a very disturbing license agreement. If you want to use the CDDB protocol in your player, you must agree to display their logo and use their services exclusively. Looks like they are trying to get a monopoly on the disc database market. Perhaps it is time for a free protocol? Here are exerpts from the license agreement. Not all of the typos are mine...

4. Grand Conditions and Terms

a. You agree to perform the following, which are conditions of the license grant to you:

i) You shall program and design the Player such that, by methods stated in the CDDB protocol:

(1) For a minimum of 2 seconds or during the time the Escient-CDDB Database or Internet Server is being accessed, whichever time is greater, each copy of the Player shall display the CDDB logo as specified by Escient from time to time;

(2) Such CDDB logo graphics will be provided by Escient. The display of the CDDB logo shall be of a size of at least 20 pixels high by 33 pixels wide. The display shall include the phrase "Accessing CDDBtm" or other similar phrase specified by Escient.

(3) Each copy of the Player shall include on its user interface a readily visible "CDDBtm Link" icon button that, when clicked, will launch the user's web browser and link to Escient(R) CDDBtm Web site at www.cddb.com;

(4) Each copy of the Player shall include on its user interface a reasonably legible mail icon (preferably a letter or mail box icon) that, which clicked, will cause the Player to email CD-related artist, title, track length and track name information that has been entered and/or corrected by the end user to CDDB at the address stated in the CDDB Protocol;

(5) Each copy of the Player when accessing the CDDB Server to obtain Data or when sending Data, shall do so directly, without first accessing any other site;

(6) The Player's functionality with regard to accessing the CDDB Server will fully conform to the specifications of the CDDB Protocol; and

(7) Each copy of the Player will include the Proprietary Legends in the "About Box" and "Help File" of the Player. The Help File on the Player will also provide to the end user an explanation of the CDDB functionality, as specified the CDDB Protocol.

(8) You agree to use the CDDB Database as the exclusive source for CD information whenever the access to such DATA is initiated by a process within your CD player application that reads CD TOC Data and retrieves Data via the Internet that is related to the CD. The term of your exclusive use of the CDDB Database will be for the term of this Agreement.

6. Negative Covenants and Restrictions

a. You further agree as follows:

i) You will not use or exploit the CDDB Database. Data derived from the CDDB Database, End User Data, or the CDDB Server, except as expressly permitted herein.

ii) The Player under this Agreement may permit the End User to aggregate Data only (a) in his or her personal computer (b) only in response to the CDs placed in his or her computer.

iii) You agree that your Player shall not have or enable functionality that uploads or permits the transmission of Data to anyone other than Escient. You agree not to upload, aggregate or collect Data derived from the CDDB Database or End User Data.

iv) You will not use the Data derived from the CDDB Database or End User Data to enable or direct the routing of linking of End Users to content or services accessed on the Internet that are related to particular CD titles, tracks, artists or music categories.

v) You may not use or permit the use of the trademarks, trade names or other designations of Escient except as specified herein, or as may be stated in Escient-supplied trademark use guidelines that Escient may issue from time to time.

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  • Ethics. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I'm not sure about the legality, but this seems VERY unethical. All the data was entered by end-users, under the guise of a freely distributable forum. Not to mention that the database originated with a free software program, XMCD.

    booch
  • I've done a lot of network programming, including a variety of protocols. I can honestly say that CDDB was the dumbest, nost bloated networking protocol I've worked with, yet it's still such a great idea. I think we need to develop an open alternative that provides similar functionality, yet is owned by no one. Think what it'd be like if someone owned the rights to the telnet protocol!
  • If this is true, then why do they mandate that you can't use the data (which is public information, much like telephone numbers) for any other purpose, can't retransmit, can't use a proxy, etc.

    Furthermore, they're mandating what every CDDB enabled CD Player must look like. The only way I use the CDDB is through a script, and so these restrictions are completely meaningless to me.

    Also, why do they mandate that the CD Player can't use any other source of information? I think this is the clause that worries the most people, because it raises the barrier to entry for any competitor so high, that Escient is creating a monopoly on the CD database market.

    Escient doesn't really own any part of the CDDB except perhaps the servers that it resides on. The data is public information, and the format, protocol originated in a GPLed program. I say we start a new project and shut these guys down.
  • Heh.. They must be from the Windoze world -- that's the first thing I started wondering about..

    Perhaps Mozilla's Open Directory or whatever should be put up to the task of having a new CD database.. You could 'integrate' it with the directory system and allow users to go to a page about the artist that made the CD or something..

    just a thought..
  • You're forgetting that people like you and me *created* that database *for* them, thinking that it was a free service. At best, they've exploited us. The least we can do is throw the shit back in their face. I'd love to see a completely free clone of the cddb, and I'd love to see it dwarf the now-payware one in popularity.

    - A.P.
    --


    "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad

  • really, it doesn't... what could they do, cut and paste all the stuff you entered into their database? ooh, big payback.

    - A.P.
    --


    "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad

  • This just goes to show that there are still stupid people out there. CDDB was great because it was free and open. I guess now someone will have to create a new CD database.
  • Posted by Xenophon Fenderson, the Carbon:

    I would be more than willing to donate some of my resources (server space and bandwidth) to a free CDDB-like service. I'd even be happy to help write a server and come up with a protocol. Something similar to POP3 or IMAP for the network interface (but not too chatty), and a regular old database on the back end, maybe MySQL or PostgresSQL (or even DBM). It'll probably take longer to install the database than it will take to code up a prototype daemon (which I'd do in Perl or Java, then rewrite in C). Heck, we could probably submit the protocol as an RFC, if we wanted to.

    My only problems are disk space and available bandwidth. I think I'm down to around 3/4-gig free on my file server, and I only have a 128Kbps ISDN into my network. But still...

    Any takers? I'm game. I'm certain we could hammer something out in a few days, maybe even have a working prototype by the end of the week.


    Rev. Dr. Xenophon Fenderson, the Carbon(d)ated, KSC, DEATH, SubGenius, mhm21x16
  • I was dubious about the Escient takeover from the start, particularly for the way it put the actual database off-limits. There's now no UK mirror, because the one using an academic server has been taken down. And slowly but surely, Escient is squeezing those who make use of its resources: resources that were freely donated.

    Time to fork the tree, folks.
  • It'd be good to put together a protocol that integrates the track-listings of CDDB and the fields of ID3, so that you can keep together your list of MP3 and CDs...
  • Same here.. I wrote some software to read data from their database, bit hard to put a logo up when its used tho!

    The copy of their demon software I have is GPL'd though, so we could use that as a starting base..

    I'd personally like to see some changes though, because the data format is pretty awful at the moment..

  • OK, straight question --

    The Id numbers on the CD's are unique right?

    Why do we need to map them to some unique ID
    number -- a database could easily use the ID
    as a key.
  • Basically, we need to look at the license provisions of previous licenses granted for software to use the CDDB database.

    If you have a CDDB program, and a license to use
    the CDDB data without the terms prohibiting archiving, redistribution etc. then you could probably use the software, archive data and retransmit it to a new CD database.

    In any case, what is needed is SWIFT action -- get a project underway, and get a simple format out of the door -- it needn;t make the service easy to use at first (give it a few weeks to sort that out -- it should allow users to submit CD details, and have an OpenContent license drawn up (or cloned) so that people know that their work wont be abused and exploited like escient are doing.)

    Maybe someone could get Rob to host one temporarily bolted onto the side of slashdot, using a separate MySQL database?
    (i.e. http://cd.slashdot.org)

    A CD database server placed here with an explanation as to why not to use CDDB should get a lot of attention in the FSC -- and that would make a very good start.

  • I'm not sure if they can do this or not. AFAIK, there's no way they can restrict a protocol. Once it's documented, anyone can write an implementation of it. (This probably wouldn't hold if they had a patent (ick), but I don't think they do.) It seems that they're trying to restrict access to their database. That database, however, is composed of entries voluntarily submitted by users of CDDB-aware CD players. Can they claim ownership of data collected from such a wide array of sources?

    For the people re-creating the database--please take a look at workman. The reason I don't use CDDB is that workman is far more flexible that the CDDB protocol allows. I can set separate authors for different tracks, which is a lot nicer than having a CD of songs performed by "Various Authors". I can also tell it about musical pieces that span multiple tracks, as is common with classical CDs. I can throw a classical CD in the drive, tell it to play the pieces in random order, and workman will do the Right Thing.



    --Phil (I don't develop workman, I just really, really like it.)
  • CD-LDAP? Cool, I like LDAP. Do you have a URL for the CD-LDAP Project (if there is one?)

    Need a mirror server?

    Skye
  • This service is really simple to implement. why can't someone write a RFC suggesting it? There could be a network of servers, etc..

    Or is it patented?
  • It's a large database of CD's on the internet. Stick your new CD in the computer, load a player (most are free/cheap) and it goes to the database and finds the artist/track names, and sometimes lyrics, based on the CD's serial number. It works great.

    Er, www.cddb.org. Go get a player, less your already using linux, then I think the cdplayer in X does it.
  • We're Escient, and we've purchased this wonderful user supported database of CD contents and other info and well...

    We'd like to kill it.

    We mean really rip it's heart out and leave it quivering on the floor as it gives out its death rasp.

    If you would like to help us, just agree to our new license.
  • OK, Steve, either you're a) lying, and don't work for Escient, b) mis- or uninformed about the restrictions this places on developers and users alike, or c) stupid.

    Since I have no reason to believe you don't work for who you say you do I'll have to discount a.

    Since it's obvious that Escient wants to have their database as the exclusive source of CD information on the net, and should have gone to great pains to educate their employees as to their intentions before turning this loose on the world, and you would have had to fail to read the relevant portions of the license extracted here before you posted you reply, I will have to discount b as well.

    Which leaves c.

    Now, I doubt you're really an imbecile, since I haven't seen you at our meetings.

    Please re-read the license, or at least the relevant portions that are here. We want to have the option of choice, the new license removes that from us. That's what we're all pissed off about.
  • Design into the system a mirroring system, and code to find the closest host (net time wise).

    But make sure you patent the algorithm, even just to make it free!

    Have servers be forward requests they don't know to higher up servers like what is done for DNS queries. Another thing to design into it is a language selection feature. This is for internationalization. One would be able to download titles in the language of their choice.

    I was initially thinking a HTML/CGI front end would have some advantages. Use existing running WWW servers, but dedicated servers would be fastest for processing requests.

    No, better use HTTP for access to the DB, because then you can use existing caches and proxies, *in addition* to that DNS like hierarchy.

    One thing to think about is making sure your data is unique. This is to cover your ass copyright wise in case they try to assert copyright. Adding new fields not included in their data, and the internationalization may both help with this.

    Well, afaik CDDB already uses most (if not all) available data. You'd have to devise a way to uniquely identify the disks (disc ID is not enough!) and transmit/store/access that data in a compact and fast way. Ok, if you add new fields, like language, make sure the whole thing doesn't get too complicated! Probably one new feature is the transmission of the lyrics... :-)

    From the beginning have a copyleft on the DB contents.

    Fine with me :-)

  • This CDDB thing really makes me angry. The database that is used by these people was built up by ordinary users of programs like QCD who wanted to help out other users of the system by entering CD details. The CDDB people are now trying to sell the product of that good will. It is cheeky at best, and downright immoral at worst.
    I second the call for a free CDDB-a-like which is protected from potential future exploitation by a GPL-like licence. I am happy to come up with an interface spec (email ianc@dai.ed.ac.uk) if anyone has a nice server and some programming time!
    Alternatively, would it be possible to use some kind of clean-room method to "re-discover" the CDDB interface protocol, and circumvent these idiots.

    --

  • I work for a record company. I've written to Escient and told them to remove all of our intellectual property from their database until they are prepared to compete based on the quality of their service rather than restrictive licensing techniques.

    I've also sent copies of my correspondence to other independent record labels, suggesting a similar course of action. The 800 pound gorilla in this game is RIAA-- if they lean on Escient, then Escient will crack. But we all hate RIAA, right??

    Intellectual property can be used for good as well as for evil, kids. Think about it.
  • If we design a new protocol, we better make it distributed. Like the IRC. This way there's no one person that needs to donate *all* the bandwidth needed for the project, and there could be local mirrors. So there needs to be a client (player) - server protocol, and also a server-to-server protocol for synchronization.
  • you know when you hit the track list on your cd player on your computer, and the names of the songs appear - along with the artist and album title? Well, none of that data is actually stored on the cd. All of that is gotten from a CDDB. There is a number (or some similar defining characteristic) on your cd that CDDB looks up for you and retrieves that info.
    Joseph Elwell.
  • I can't believe these fucking pricks. I say we should write scripts that send them fake/random data so as to destroy the usefulness/reliability of their database in protest. If we cause alot of trouble for them, maybe they'll reconsider these annoying restrictions.
    --
  • That's fair enough. The proxy only has to work on localhost which would remain on the user's personal computer. The command send from a player to the proxy could be 'tell me about the cd in /dev/cdrom now' which satisfies ii A and II b.

    As for iii, it's arguable that the data is not being transmitted - it remains within the one computer. The data certainly isn't upoaded, aggregated, or collected. Though that would seem to prevent caching.

    Paul.
  • Why? Take a good look at section 6, paragraph a, subparagraph 1, the first sentence:

    You will not use or exploit the CDDB database...

    Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but this essentially makes it illegal to access the database, right? After all, when one accesses the database, one is using it.
    Even if it's not quite that way, it makes a great reason for a boycott of CDDB. That'll shut these profiteering bastards up.

    Come to think of it, I've never even seen the need to use that database, anyway.
  • I knew the guy who was implementing a similar project, called DISCO [spies.com]. The author is a Mac guy, and may be the person of whom you're thinking. I don't know the current state of development, but the web page is still up.
  • So we should form a working group and submit the
    first drafts then :)

    -- Jochen
  • I wonder if they're going to have an ASCII-art logo... what if my cdplayer application isn't graphical?

    CDDB isn't that complex, and what its doing isn't that complex. I assume they don't have a patent on it, someone should just duplicate the service...

  • This is exactly the same problem I had with DIVX, except in that case the technology keeps you from using another DIVX provider if one is available, rather than this questionable license agreement.
  • Its not possible to "own" a format. They can, as some one else pointed out, have a trademark on name "CDDB," but unless the format entails use of some patented process (like the use of LZW in Compuserve's GIF format) the format itself can be used by anyone who can decode it.

    When last I looked, CDDB was a simple text format describing a CD's title and track info.

    Also, the trademarks cannot be too general and are granted for use of terms used in a specific industry or market. That's why you cannot call your new computer company "Apple Computer," or most variations that could cause confusion in the marketplace, but "Apple Bank" (here in NY) can operate without infringing on Apple Computer's mark.

    So, in a nutshell what these sleazy weasels are attempting is a simple land-grab.

    The OSS community should start "outting" outfits like ths with press releases that (in a politely worded fashion!) let the press know exactly what kind of liars and cheats these companies are and how they are attempting to steal the work and ideas of others.

    Its time to take back intellectual property from the intellectually disingenuous...

  • Unfortunately, That isn't the case. The CDDB evolved from an open source project I believe. They used to distribute just a flat file of all entered titles, and then moved on to developing the CDDB Protocol. Reverse engineering would be simple, you can do lookups with telnet. As a matter of fact, I have a perl script I wrote to do just that. They base the uniqe value for lookups on track length I believe. I have some C code to generate that for Windows (adopted from the example they (used to?) give out on their page. I seem to remember, that all the servers are run by volunteers as well. They may own the protocol, but i doubt they own the information. It wouldn't be terribly hard to write a script to rip down all the information and populate it into a "new" database.
  • First of all, you make us all look bad. My opinion is most people are upset their license prevents you from linking to "other" CD databases. Not that anything else is even close to cddb.

    Second, you could get yourself into legal trouble. Threats won't sway ANYONE.

    Thirdly, supposing the above were not true, would you be willing to "clean up" CDDB's database which you took part in breaking? I thought not...

  • All you idiots who are surprised at this should not have been mocking me when I was talking about freedom on the Qt thread. While that problem appears to have been solved (even if I still don't like the QPL), the fact remains that we should get guarantees of freedom before supporting a basic protocol or library.

    The GPL, LGPL, QPL, NPL, MPL, X, and BSD licenses are examples of licenses guaranteeing freedom. The GPL, additionally, is copyleft, so freedom is forced. If you don't understand the differences between these licenses, READ THEM instead of posting ignorant comments.

    A new free CDDB-like format should be developed, and a standard library under LGPL (or some other non-viral license) should be distributed making it extremely easy for current CD player authors to replace their current CDDB support with a new format.

    When will these companies realize that this "bait-and-switch" tactic just isn't going to work in the software community? We'll just go to something else. Of course, what would be nice is if we didn't start using their crap in the first place, unless freedom was guaranteed.

    Incidentally, isn't mandating exclusive-use agreements illegal under trust laws? I honestly don't know, so it would be helpful if someone with greater legal knowledge in this area could respond...

    Okay, so here are some defined goals as to what we need:

    1. A new CDDB-like format (hey, maybe even make it BETTER!) created under a free-use license. Let's call is BDDC for the moment.
    2. A BDDC library licensed under some non-viral license like LGPL or X or BSD.
    3. A conversion program to convert the CDDB databases to BDDC. I don't recall there being a license on CDDB when I last added track information, so that information is still © me, and everyone else who entered it.
    4. A PR machine to notify both the current CDDB servers (who are now going apeshit) and CD player manufacturers/authors of the new format and its guaranteed freedom. A task force to identify possible new CDDB server locations would be great.

    If anyone wants to discuss this with me personally, remove the SPAM from my email address (krose@Stheory.Plcs.Amit.Medu). Things like this really piss me off, and they should piss you off too.
    --
    Kyle R. Rose, MIT LCS
  • \{*GPL\}\subseteq copyleft, not viral.

    Not enough caffeine this morning. D'OH! Naturally this kind of mistake would occur when I was bitching at others to post correctly about licensing issues.
    --
    Kyle R. Rose, MIT LCS
  • Two lists have been created:

    freecddb-developer and freecddb-announce

    @bigred.lcs.mit.edu. Send mail to majordomo@bigred.lcs.mit.edu with "subscribe " in the body.
    --
    Kyle R. Rose, MIT LCS
  • ...as those are © the respective authors. They can own a copyright to the anthology of titles, but considering it was a community submission effort that created it, and there was no restrictive license during most of its lifetime, I really doubt it would stand up in court.

    I'm currently trying to coordinate a development effort for a new free protocol. Please send an email with "subscribe freecddb-developer " in the body to "majordomo@bigred.lcs.mit.edu" if you are interested in development. Do not send subscription requests to the list, as majordomo will bounce them. (In fact, majordomo seems to stupidly bounce any message containing \bsubscribe\b. Duh.)

    And no quips about majordomo being non-free, either... =)
    --
    Kyle R. Rose, MIT LCS
  • > What is CDDB, and what is it used for?

    CDDB is a database that programs can access over the internet to get the title of a cd, the track names and such using a serial number (or something related) that differs amung different cd titles. Programs like the Windows 98 PLUS cdrom player, or there is one called (spelling not included -- its close to it anyways) Quatrosum CD player do this. Music Match 3 (also for windows) will take the track names right before you copy the track to mp3 from the server. It just makes it easier for you to get the cd name and track names instead of having to enter them yourself.

    >How can a company "own" a format? Sure, a company can own a *trademark* (like IrDA) and charge for use of the trademark; but I've never heard of anyone "owning" a data format. This is bizarre.

    Maybe theyre talking about owning the system that it uses to gather whatever it uses to reference the cd names. Dunno.

    Myconid@sover.net
    Stan "Myconid" Brinkerhoff

  • Hey Casady,

    I say go for it. Design a protocol and write a simple app for your platform. How hard could it be? You could probably get pretty far in one afternoon. Other people will write the apps for other platforms, if the protocol's simple.

    James
    james@jmarshall.com

  • From what I've seen of the CDDB protocol and features, they are shite. Personally, we'd be better off as a community creating a brand new, well featured and free system for everyone to use, and let them screw with CDDB as much as they like. Just my two cents.
  • Check your facts [escient.com]. Escient did NOT invent this protocol. They bought it - it used to be free and open. The guys who invented it sold it, unfortunately, and now Escient wants to exercise some control.
  • I'm not familiar with the cddb data format... but it does seem that if a new format was developed, the new database could be populated quickly from the data stored on users' hard drives... if there's any cddb/escient specific data, you'd have to ignore that, but it seems to me that disk ID, name, tracks, and track names would be free for use. I mean, how could you tell the difference between a user re-entering the data for the new format, and simply retrieving it from their local database subset?

    How long 'til the music label folks sue to get a piece of this action? They probably own the rights to the band and song names, eh? >:(
  • From the web site: "DISCO is technology for sale." That might get us right back into the situation we're in.
  • Hey, I tried to send you mail but your address (bigboss@my(dot)dejanews.com) bounces.
  • Let's establish an Open CD Base then. It's
    unbelievable (although we saw ago that CDDB
    became comercialized, which was as bad as this,
    IMHO), since what do they think they got their
    data from? I entered dozends of CDs to their
    database before it became comercial. Will they
    pay me?

  • I have absolutely no problem with a company setting up (maybe expensive) servers to serve the data to people, but as long as they don't own the data, it should be allowed for everyone to grab the whole bunch of data and make his/her own CDDB server.

    Yes, such a huge collection of CD data is money. But it cannot be anybody's property.

    (Actually, I think it can, but only of artists or record companies, but not of somebody who just gets it from others.)

  • The last time I looked at this thing, it was about a million 1k files and it took something like an hour to de-archive! If you're going to port this information to a new system, do yourself a favor and put the info into a relational database -- heck, I'll write a script to upload the year-old-files into a mysql database if you want...

    --

  • Catch some of the earlier posts.. there is another guy who mentioned it first.. we should work together to form this thing.

    As for resources. I have a gig or two available (since the last known size I'm aware of on that database is 50Meg it's not a big problem). I also have 256K DSL I'm willing to use for this. I sugest we think up a way to distribute the load so that one server doesn't have to carry the entire burden.

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