For CS Majors, How Important Is the "Where?"

An anonymous reader writes "I'm a high school senior who is trying to pick a college to attend. I've been accepted by two comparably selective schools. One is a highly regarded tech school, and the other is a highly regarded liberal arts institution. I prefer the liberal arts college, but the computer science program is small, graduating about a dozen students a year. The course load is heavily theory based; programming languages are taught in later years. How much would the tech school vs. non tech school matter? Are CS majors from non-tech school considered inferior? What would an HR department think? What would you think if you were hiring?"

OH NOES!

Never ever go to a liberal arts college, they make you write PAPERS about POEMS some DEAD GUY wrote.

Liberal Arts Has Its Place

I think a Lib. Arts degree has great merit, but the submitter has a much better chance of getting a good education at a highly-rated technical school. You learn a lot just by being around other people who know more than you do.

In the L.A. school, you'll have to educate yourself. The tech school will let you bounce ideas off of other students as well as the more numerous professors.

This from a Liberal Arts major ....

Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place

From a person (senior graduating in about 30 days) at an engineering school that you have almost certainly heard of:

Give very, very serious thought to going to the liberal arts school. In my case, the school has forced enough computer science, math, bio, engineering, physics, etc. down my throat that I've actually soured somewhat on the idea of having anything to do with computer science after graduation. If it's a top ... say ... three or four engineering school, you have to have a very serious conversation with yourself about whether you are okay with staying up until 5:00AM to finish a problem set for a course you're not very interested in becoming a very common occurrence. Freshman and sophomore years in particular are always absolute killers at those places. I know quite a few people at the school I go to that confided in me that when they arrived they were extremely happy and healthy, and they now have very significant mental, cardiological, and neurological problems. I'm not kidding when I say "killer" -- you're literally shortening your lifespan.

I know it sounds weird, but if you do CS 24/7 (perhaps literally 20/7 for long stretches) there's going to be a time when you long for a course that will teach you about poetry, or history, or something completely unrelated to what you spend the rest of your time on. And there will be a good chance you're not going to be able to fit such a course in your schedule.

Also, keep in mind that many, many of the people at very good engineering schools are extremely socially maladapted. Sometimes staggeringly so. So you have to reconcile yourself with that, too.

Some people absolutely thrive at those sorts of colleges. But most, from what I've seen, just leave technically more proficient (though not much more so than if they went to a liberal arts school) and quite a bit more hollow.

Then again, if you do go to a technical school, I can tell you from quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that you're going to get preferential treatment in the hiring process with a huge name engineering school. I've personally had two interviewers confide in me post-selection that I was picked over (to me) obviously more qualified candidates because they didn't believe that someone from [X. State] could be better qualified than a person from [ABC] and that they had just assumed that I flubbed the interviews. So if you're truly unsure of your ability to make a name for yourself at a liberal arts college, you could at least leverage the branding power that the engineering school has.

If you do wind up at the engineering school, see if you can get attached to a research project as soon as possible. At most of the interesting places to work, saying "I have [x] papers published in [journal A], [journal B], and [journal C]" has way more sway -- even if the topics aren't related to the job -- than saying "I can do pointer arithmetic really fast in my head." If you decide to go to grad school, publications in your name make them start salivating when they see your application packet, because doing original research and writing about it is generally what grad school is about.

Christ, that was supposed to be a "I think liberal arts colleges are good" and turned into a novella. College really is what you a make of it, and you can do very well for yourself either place. Just make sure you find friends who are smarter than you and start hanging out with them. And then make sure you make friends who aren't technical majors at all, and hang out with them at least as often. To get perspective.

Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place

I'd say the 'where' is very important - but not for the usual reasons. Its possible to be just as successful either way -- but there's a reason you hear of more success stories from the big-name schools.

What it comes down to is standards. Its very difficult to maintain high standards in isolation. In a recognized/sought-after school you will usually face much more competition, more motivated and focused classmates. They are your competition for good grades (especially when graded on a curve) and at job fairs on campus. The result is that you get pushed harder (and you in turn are one of the people pushing your classmates to excell as well). Bottom line: if you want an A in Compilers in the big tech school you'll have to really know your shit inside out. If you want to get an A in the Liberal Arts school its a lot easier. At the end of it, you'll have much more airtight concepts if you've gone through the grind at the big school.

A long-term perk of the big school is that you'll make close friends from among this pool of competitors -- they help you keep your standards high even after school (as will your colleagues at work, etc. etc.)

Of course, all this advice is based on certain assumptions about your goals and career ambitions, and might not apply if the assumptions are invalid.

Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place

You learn a lot just by being around other people who know more than you do.

You're assuming that people at a liberal arts school don't know more than he does. It could be argued that by going to a LA school he is more likely will run into people who know things that he's not even aware he doesn't know.

depends...

do you want to go to school with a bunch of geeks or a bunch of hippies?

that is the dilemma you are facing. it's a double-edged sword.

Re:depends...

liberal art school... full of, well, girls. All of which have their heads filled with romance, poetry, and a total lack of understanding about anything real world. Go there :-)
 

Re:depends...

There's actually a serious point here.

I graduated with a CS degree from a Liberal Arts college. Perhaps at a tech school you are surrounded by people who know about the subjects you wish to learn about. The key to a Liberal Arts college is surrounding yourself with a variety of people. You're going to learn a lot more partying with a history or philosophy major than you are partying with another programmer.

Also, you are forced to take classes you wouldn't have wanted to, and *gasp* you'll actually learn about new things! Perhaps when you're 40, you'll decide that you don't want to be a programmer anymore. Instead, you want to become a writer, or open your own restaurant. You're going to have a wider variety of knowledge and contacts in a wider variety of fields if you went to a Liberal Arts college.

Admittedly, I've not tried for a job at Google or Sun. However, I've had no trouble finding good work, and interviewers are usually impressed by the college I graduated from.

Re:depends...

do you want to go to school with a bunch of geeks or a bunch of hippies?

that is the dilemma you are facing. it's a double-edged sword.

Either way the smell is going to be terrible.

The answer to this and most other decisions.

I'd choose the college with the most beautiful women.

However, in my country, right now, there's no chance of not finding a nice job with any kind of CS higher education.

Also, take into account the importance of your choice of college will fade after some years. At 45, your rank (?) won't really depend on your college but on your skill and abilities.

It's Not Gonna Matter

One is a highly regarded tech school, and the other is a highly regarded liberal arts institution.

A highly regarded school is a highly regarded school. On top of that, I interview people to work for my tech company and I don't care if you're from MIT or middle of nowhere college, it all depends on what comes out of your mouth during the interview. And I haven't met a company that's any different.

I think you need to ask yourself if you want to go to a school where they force you into requirements like taking one anthropology course or two upper division reading courses. You're other choice (the tech school) is having all your courses picked for you but never accidentally stumbling onto something you love or have never experienced.

Me, I opted for the liberal arts college and will never regret it. Sure, my coworkers who went to a tech school get to brag about how intensive their CS coursework was but I've learned what they know (if not more) a couple years into my job.

Do what you want to do, what you think will be fun and exciting. The place ain't gonna matter, what you put into it will and will be evident to anybody that talks to you.

Re:It's Not Gonna Matter

I interview people to work for my tech company and I don't care if you're from MIT or middle of nowhere college, it all depends on what comes out of your mouth during the interview. And I haven't met a company that's any different.

But would he even be selected for the interview if he's from middle-of-nowhere-college while most of the other candidates come from MIT, CALTECH or similar?

Re:It's Not Gonna Matter

As the GP mentioned, you only get to make a good impression once you have the interview. Getting to the interview is based first (and foremost) on networking (who you know). If you don't have connections, then you need to rely on your resume; fresh out of college, the school's reputation is one of the few hooks you have to land that interview. Companies tend to get many more applicants than they can reasonably interview, so some amount of cheap (however unfair) filtering is necessary.

Once you're in the interview, your resume serves largely to help the interviewer frame his questions.

That, and experience

Yes, at first, where you went may matter to some people. And some programs are going to be able to offer opportunities you might not get anywhere else.

But a healthy presence in open source projects to gain experience, as well as being active in your local tech community can go a long way. Having the degree is fine - having it with experience is even better.

HR departments don't care

First, HR departments don't care where your degree is from.

Once you understand that, you need to understand yourself and your goals. What do you want to do with your degree? Do you want to be a sysadmin (face it, you can go to Devry and do that job competently), programmer, manager, researcher? These are things that should influence your decision. If you want to work in a research department (say PARC or MSR), you will need postgraduate degrees, and the best thing in that case is to choose the tech school. Other than that, you would probably have more fun at the liberal arts college.

You should also think about what kind of college experience you want. Do you want to go to a large school with many opportunities to meet a very diverse set of people? Do you want to go to a small school and be more than just another face in the crowd? Do you want to be involved in fraternities? Which school will give you the school experience you want?

Where are the schools located? Do you want to live in a small college town? How about a big city? Do you want the college to be your primary connection to the world, or do you want to explore outside the gates? How much cold weather can you stand? How much crime can you stand? Which school has the best location for you?

There are a great many factors in choosing a school. Do not limit your choices because you heard that one program is better than another. If you really don't know what you want to do yet, don't make the choice on program reputation alone. If you know you want the best program, then maybe that is the best choice, but in the end the "better" program is not going to prepare you much better than the "worser" program.

Chose what you like better

I'd probably go for the liberal arts college. You'll meet some interesting people, have a good life for a while and probably get a better education if the groups are small anyway. You can always go to MIT for your masters. I'd also not discount the value of theory. I've always prefered hiring the math student with some programming knowledge over the CS student who took all the Java classes.

Employers Want Fast Learners & Good Communicat

First of all, I suspect you'll get a fair number of comments arguing against attending a liberal arts college. You're asking a Slashdot audience, so approach such comments with caution.

I've interviewed and hired some employees, and I have also interviewed dozens of students applying to one of America's most elite universities for admission (or much more often rejection). (I also had a similar decision to make at age 17.) Above all else I look for candidates who can learn quickly and who can communicate well. That second attribute is arguably less common among graduates from technical institutions, but communication starts with your resume (or a campus recruiting event, or whatever), not with the mere identity of your college, so I keep an open mind and would invite you to an interview if the signs are otherwise positive. I also look for inquisitiveness: are you a person who is inherently curious about the world? I look for other attributes, too, but those three are priorities.

But even before you get to an interview or apply for a job, do you know what you want to do when you grow up? A lot of prospective college students are not sure, and many or most change their minds. Some colleges provide more options than others if you do change your mind. I would recommend using college as a vehicle to explore your curiosities. That journey of exploration builds confidence, and confident, thoughtful people often interview better. If you are already sure about your path, great, go chase your dream. If you are not, then go explore what fascinates you to build your dream.

Good luck.

Advice from someone who hires programmers

Since you will be coming right out of school, you may not have much practical experience when it comes time to see a full-time job. This is to be expected, but there are a couple of things you can do to make yourself stand out:

1) Seek a good internship/coop that allows you to develop practical experience. Many of these are one or two-semester gigs (or one or two summers). When I was in school, I had a 3.5 yr coop which was basically a long-term relationship with a local employer. That was hugely valuable, as by the time I graduated I had a ton of experience (even leading small projects). I would have gotten a full-time offer had that department not been closed down shortly after I left.

2) Work on some interesting hobby projects. School projects are often an interesting spring board, but consider ways to apply what you are learning to scratching some itch.

Personally, I don't give the candidate's school a whole lot of weight. Maybe it gets my attention when looking at a sea of applicants, but I consider each applicant on his/her own merit as demonstrated by the resume, cover letter, and other submitted materials. The most crucial aspect of the whole process is actually the on-site interview. Everything else is just a screening mechanism.

What I look for most is what Joel Spolsky from Joel on Software refers to as "Smart and Gets Things Done." For me, that means someone who is interested in programming because they think it's cool and provides an outlet for creative problem solving, and someone who has demonstrated an ability to tackle problems in the past.

Therefore, I would recommend that you choose a college based on the total experience you will get. Consider everything college offers: learning about a lot of topics, meeting new people, exposure to new ideas, a new level of freedom and independence, moving to a new place to be exposed to new culture, etc... Many of the classes that had the most impact on me and were most memorable were far outside the CS curriculum. Consider what opportunities are available there with each school. Think about what it will be like to live in each of the cities the colleges are located in. Think about what there could be to explore and discover there. Choose the school that is best for you on all of those fronts - don't limit yourself to just choosing a CS program.

In a few years where you got your CS degree won't matter so much, but the memories and experiences you got while in school will last your entire lifetime. Many of those experience will be unrelated to what happened in the classroom.

I recommend the Tech college

Unless you have a minor that the arts college really attracts you to, I'd suggest the Tech college. Several reasons:

1) Some companies look for someone from a good tech college. If they are doing resume mining you can be sure they aren't looking for U of Nowhere. Also for example my current employer has half its staff from the same school. They see the school name and have an idea of what someone graduating from there should know.

2) If you get a more specialized interest as you go through school you'll be more likely to find courses/research supervisors for your interest. If you are in a small faculty you might get lucky. But if you are in a large one you'll almost certainly have someone in any niche you are thinking about.

3) You'll get a wider peer group from which to use for future job info, business partners etc. Plus in a small school you might date the one girl in your program and have it not work out. At a big school you can choose between several geek girls, or go to another department.

4) You also can be more selective with your friends/project team mates, you don't have much choice with a small program because either you will clump up with a couple people and do projects together, or some other group with form and force you into a group by default. You don't want to be forced to work with people you can't stand. It happens enough in the real world why experience more of it than you have too? ;)

Re:Where will you be in 20 years?

meanwhile in reality...

both the liberal arts and tech grads are stuck in cubicles, but the liberal arts grad can make wittier whips at the water tank and has an extra smirk when he sips his latte.

Re:Not very

Here,

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take some of them

Emphasis on Fun

I don't think that you've emphasized the *fun* part enough.

Don't get me wrong - half of college is about working your ass off, sleeping in the lab and submitting term papers 38 seconds before the deadline after having worked on them for three days straight (what smells like coffee and bacon?).

But the other half of it is meeting people and becoming an adult (if one is so fortunate as to be attending college immediately after high school in the conventional manner). If you have time, join any and every student organization that interests you - even if it doesn't fit your major. Talk to people. Make weekly attempts to eat the entire two pound burrito (goals are important). Wear sunscreen. Et cetera.

When you look back on college and don't chuckle out loud, then you didn't do it properly. You only get one chance.

True, Experience matters

I graduated from a smaller university that isn't really known for its computer science or any technical schools. I now work for a mobile phone game company and prior to that, I worked for Amazon. A friend of mine graduated from the same university with the same major and is now working for Lockheed Martin.

youll find your job. experience outdoes almost any college name.

At the bottom line, I agree with the parent, that experience is huge. On top of that, how well you interact with people and "market yourself" to potential employers matters a lot too (the friend who works for Lockheed got his initial position there from a very impressive conversation with a recruiter at a job fair where the recruiter wasn't even really looking for anyone new).

Great programmers have formal training

Or at least took the time to teach themselves algorithm analysis, data structures, some higher math, and some functional programming.

There's a lot of really good self-taught programmers out there, and they can write some pretty cool software. However, the truly elite programmers are the educated ones that can understand the principles that make it all work.

    The really good employers know this. You're not going to get the plum job at Google unless you know what a fixed-point function is and what it's good for. Fog Creek Software doesn't want to hire you unless you really understand pointers and recursion. There's really neat jobs at Sun Microsystems that need you to DEEPLY understand object-orientation and algorithm analysis.

The number of people that can learn that stuff on their own is vanishingly small. Even if you can learn it by yourself, there's nothing like going through a rigorous 4-year program where you have these topics stuffed down your throat and drilled into you until you know it backwards and forwards. A good CS degree practically guarantees that you'll have a suite of kick-ass high-level skills by the time you graduate.

Yes, a good programmer will teach his (or herself) on a lot of topics. However, for many things there's just no substitute for a good old education.

Re:Well...

Then he better get in line. Hardly any of them exist to begin with, and those that do are in high demand. This is especially true at tech schools, where even the ugliest mutt can pull off a group of 4 or 5 suitors.