MPAA Seeks $15 Million From The Pirate Bay

praps writes "Having tasted blood with its victory over TorrentSpy, the MPAA is now stepping up its attack on The Pirate Bay. The association is claiming damages of over $15 million, based on The Pirate Bay's distribution of four films and a TV series — Harry Potter, The Pink Panther, Syriana, Walk the Line and the first season of Prison Break. The Swedish court is unlikely to be as generous as the one in California, although the four Pirate Bay founders are already facing charges of being accessories to breaking copyright law." TorrentSpy, in the meantime, has declined to pay the settlement awarded to the MPAA on Wednesday. In addition to appealing the decision, they have filed for bankruptcy.

TorrentSpy

TorrentSpy's big problem was the destruction of evidence.
http://www.google.com/search?q=torrentspy+destruction+of+evidence [google.com]

Once they did that, the Judge essentially said "we can't have a real trial, you're guilty"

No legal precedent was set in the TorrentSpy case, because no legal analysis of any copyright claims happened.

Re:TorrentSpy

That's the law, but it's not how it will be upheld. I always get modded down for saying this, but "Since when has the law meant anything in court?". The MPAA and RIAA will just keep driving at this "precedent" they seem to have won, regardless of whether it's a real precedent or not.

Re:TorrentSpy

The **AA might be able to use this "precedent" to influence some ignorant politicians who aren't given all the facts, but there's no way in hell that type of nonsense will pass muster with a Judge.

This might surprise you, but most Judges actually read the cases (or summaries of the cases) cited in legal briefs.

I'm also not quite sure what you mean by "but it's not how it will be upheld," since all this trial has established is that tampering with evidence during discovery is bad... and that isn't exactly a new legal principle.

Re:TorrentSpy

Citations?

In most cases I've read I've been pleasantly surprised at how good judges are.

Re:TorrentSpy

With the way the economy is going, it might be funnier just to pay it.. 15M us is like what, $100 Euro? o_O

-ellie

(Yes, I realize the exchange rate is actually closer to 1.75:1 but reality isn't always funny without hyperbole.)

Re:TorrentSpy

But what they really did was destroy users access records to protect their visitors. That may make them guilty as far as the judge thinks, but it was actually their only means of protecting the identity of visitors. It was a very brave act on their part, if that's the case.

Re:TorrentSpy

But what they really did was destroy users access records to protect their visitors.

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9835333-7.html [news.com]

TorrentSpy operators intentionally modified or deleted directory headings naming copyrighted titles and forum posts that explained how to find specific copyrighted works; concealed IP addresses of users; and withheld the names and addresses of forum moderators, the court found. They had earlier been fined $30,000 for violations of discovery orders and were warned of severe sanctions if they continued to ignore the orders.

Yes, they were trying to protect their visitors.
But they were also sanitizing the forum and then they lied about various things under oath.

Heck, read the /. comments about it when it happened
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/19/1444229 [slashdot.org]

/I'm not really interested in rehashing any of those arguments

Ambiguities

I'm puzzled about whether the pirate bay guys are just attention seekers, or if they are actually willing to potentially screw up the rest of their lives for this cause.

They must have seen it coming and they've had a lot of time to back down.

Either way, big balls.

Re:Ambiguities

Well, they do not live in US jurisdiction. Big difference.

Re:Ambiguities

It's easier for them than someone in say the states. In the states you'd be screwed, it would be the end of your life, it would be the end of the story.

In Sweden they have both public support and political support from many serving politicians. As such any legal ruling against them has the potential to lead to a political shit storm to the point where political supporters of the ruling simply wont ever be elected ever again.

In many countries citizens like file sharing, they disagree with rulings against it and support of the RIAA/MPAA but simply don't care enough to do anything about it. In Sweden it's a big enough issue for people to both care and act.

Nations like Britain, the US and so forth have bigger worries from terrorism/wars in Iraq/Afghanistan to economic worries to general social problems and issues with their health care systems (or in the states, lack of).

Re:Ambiguities

I think you overstate the percentage of the voting public who give a shit. 99% of people I know have no idea what thepiratebay is, or what it does. I'd guess pretty much all of them would realise the site is breaking a law (or at least encouraging its users to do so) and wouldn't have much sympathy,
Yes, there are a lot of people on slashdot who get very defensive about their right to take copyrighted stuff, but try stopping someone in the street and asking the ten most important things that affect their votes. I'd reckon:

Crime
Income
Taxes
Transport
House Prices
Education
Health
Pensions
Terrorism
Inequality

I reckon the rights of people with broadband to download free rips of Hollywood movies might come in at number 70 or 90, but its sure isn't swinging most peoples vote.

Re:Ambiguities

A quick question:

does 'the next generation' of Swedish voters assume they will be working for free making movies for everyone? or do they want to continue a system where foreigners (Americans mostly) do all the work making stuff, where the swedes just get to take it all for free whilst sat on their ass?

Just asking.

Re:Ambiguities

The Anonymous Coward who wrote ...
In Sweden it has actually hit mainstream Politics, and there is a Political Party with legalizing P2p on its agenda.
The current activities of the PirateBay are fully legal in Sweden.

... makes an interesting point, but I hope that most people are aware that "mainstream politics," has less to do with the average U.S. citizen than it would in Sweden.

It is my view that although the pile of democratic nations in the world has been growing, when the ability of U.S. voters to influence their government is considered, the U.S. voter is close to the bottom of that pile!

The U.S. has few majority or runoff elections for state or national office. It has no proportional representation elections using multi-member districts at the same level. In fact the federal government has outlawed such elections for U.S. House elections.

Jury nullification, probably the average U.S. citizens strongest influence on government granted by the U.S. Constitution has been gutted by the U.S. Supreme court!

Unlike Sweden, the U.S. no longer has political parties in the traditional sense. Such parties, with enforceable party platforms, have been effectively outlawed. U.S. political parties do not have public agendas, except in both rare and partial instances. ( see below )

I_Voter

Attempts at Party Platforms

The Democrat's 100 Hours Plan
http://tinyurl.com/5kmmu5 [tinyurl.com]

The Republican's Contract with America
http://tinyurl.com/5bkkd3 [tinyurl.com]

New and incomplete web site
Political Power in the U.S.
http://tinyurl.com/2sdtvk [tinyurl.com]

Entertainment

Sending legal threats to the Pirate Bay, MPAA? Yeah, how's that working out for you? [thepiratebay.org]

Both Swedish and foreign downloads

The MPAA does not differ between downloads from Sweden and from abroad, which I think is not going to fly well with the court. Unlike US courts that (apparently) doesn't care about things like national jurisdiction, Swedish courts do (at least I hope so).

Re:Both Swedish and foreign downloads

Exactly. MPAA seems to have based their case on different set of laws. Swedish court will rule according to swedish law (hopefully).

One of the policemen involved with the investigation was on warners payroll, how that didnt turn into a bigger scandal than it has is upsetting to say the least.

MPAA and their associates have put alot of effort into this case, let's hope tpb are equally prepared, should be an interesting showdown.

Re:The Marketplace

Just to point out:

We are not "the consumer". We are nerds who participate in friendly discussion on an Internet News Site. That means that we are just a tiny, microscopic fraction of all consumers everywhere (or, in this case, in the US) and, as such, have no power over the rest of the consumers. Thus, preaching like "Vote with your wallets!" HERE will not accomplish anything - we already know this (though most of us probably don't care). The only thing we CAN do is raise awareness - and somehow, I don't see any big protest signs on the streets criticising MAFIAA for their actions.

To sum it up: Why don't we actually DO something about it, not stand idle and repeat the old phrases that every one of us heard a dozen times?

(Reply: The sun. IT BURNS USSSS! :) )

Re:The Marketplace

Really, I don't give a damn either way. Pirate Bay is cocky and arrogant and makes money from other peoples work, and the movie industry is a cynical money grabbing cartel. I tolerate the Pirate bay because I like to get free stuff, and movie industry for the few decent films they actually do produce.

Re:The Marketplace

How does Pirate Bay make money from other peoples work?

If by that you mean they sell advertising space because they are a popular indexing site, then how is that 'making money from other peoples work'?

It isn't, any more than Google providing a search service then selling advertising space is.

What strikes me is that the target market in the Pirate Bay's case is (according to the **AA spin) a bunch of freeloaders and pirates who won't pay for anything, so why would advertisers pay good money to access that market?

Obviously the users of the service must have some interest in purchasing whatever is advertised there - so there's a message for the **AA there somewhere :o).

Re:The Marketplace

That's a really idealized vision of the system.

Capitalism is a game in which buyers and sellers are oppenents.

Saying "the market decides" means that the power is all in the hands of the buyers: that's when you can say that "the market will make better products appear": better meaning better for the buyer. This is the ideology which justifies capitalism: the people are the buyers, and the law are (supposed to be) made for the people's sake.

But this is just one extreme in the balance of power between the two players; and just finding a good example for it is difficult. The best one is probably gas stations: you know exactly what you are buying, and you can easily check an other one, so the margins are (I guess) pretty low.
But in many cases, the balance weights heavily toward the seller. We all know the reasons: using people's mistakes (lottery, complicated billing), forced buying (bundling, etc), monopoly (or any alliance of sellers against buyers), control of the information, control of the law (lobbying).

All thoses are limitted or forbidden by the law, because they all go against the people's interest. Even marketing, when you think about it, is pretty absurd since it openly tries to make a deal seem better than it really is for buyer.
The only moral justification you can think of to allow marketing is that a company will only have the money to run ads if it is successful; this takes for granted that success is mostly the result of the company's real usefulness to the people.
In short, marketing is only justified if it does not change the relative success of companies!
(Note: you can't justify marketing just by freedom of speech, which is intended for cases when the law should stay neutral in the fight between two parties, as in a trial; there is no reason not to favor the people against the sellers. Except for international competitivity; it's often an easy excuse, but it's a valid point and a wider discussion).

Of course, the other cases (monopoly, bundling) are even harder to justify; but the worse is certainly lobbying. The simple idea that sellers could affect the law is utterly absurd, and lobbying is the best indicator of the power balance. In France -and I guess most countries- it's simply called corruption (which does not mean it doesn't happen).

And by the way: the internet has the potential to take a lot of power away from the sellers. Before Ebay, some companies made profit just by providing the organisation that buyers lacked.
Things can really change; that is, if we don't let them rewrite the laws too much with the power they have left.

1, 2, 3... Fight! [eff.org]

Re:Is the Pirate Bay rich ?

I'm no lawyer, but first of all they certainly won't be able to pay since the numbers are RIAA pulled out of the ass, "we lost this much" numbers and hence one or two orders of magnitude above any real figure.

However, this shouldn't matter since the chance that they are found liable is probably rather small ( "assisting copyright infringement" is not a crime in Swedish law, yet that is what they are being sued for ).

Now if they are found liable anyway, it would still be the company that is held responsible. The individuals in question probably would not suffer from it at all, and even if they killed all of their servers it would just be weeks ( if not days ) before somebody else created a similar page with slightly different implementation, thus forcing a new investigation and court process.

Even if the RIAA do win this case all they achieve is make TPB into martyrs and ensure that whoever succeed them will be even more difficult to stop.

Re:A solution...

To quote Orwell, "The Proles will never revolt."

As long as we HAVE our X-Factor, our America's Next Top Model, our Pop Idol, and our never ending Lost series, we'll let them do whatever the fuck they want.

Bah... Baaaah...

Re:A solution...

To quote Orwell, "The Proles will never revolt." As long as we HAVE our X-Factor, our America's Next Top Model, our Pop Idol, and our never ending Lost series, we'll let them do whatever the fuck they want. Bah... Baaaah...

Why didn't you also mention "Big Brother" -- the popular TV show that makes this so ironic?

Re:A solution...

Today on Big Brother: Winston finally comes to love Big Brother and then gets shot in the back of the head. The rest of the housemates fight over how to divvy up his possessions.

Re:Posters please remember PiratByran is SWEDISH !

PyratByran is run by Swedes. Sweden is not part of the United States. Your silly American laws do not apply in Sweden.

That's true, right up to the point that Al-Qaeda operatives are revealed to be hiding in TPB's server room and Sweden is declared part of the Axis of Evil.

Give it time, the American military-industrial complex will figure out some way to bone Sweden over it, even if it screws itself more in the process.