Seattle Flushes $5M High-Tech Toilets

theodp writes "Hopes were high back in 2004 as Seattle's posh public potties opened for business. But four years later, city officials have said good riddance to the five high-tech toilets, self-cleaning and cylindrical, that had cost Seattle $5 million. The city unloaded them on eBay for just $12,549. The commodes had become filthy hide-outs for drug use and prostitution."

Just Remember...

We're talking about Seattle, so most of the people there would've been cool with that if the janitor had just visited more often.

God, I wish I didn't have to move. ;_;

Re:Just Remember...

The insight here was that they were self-cleaning so no need for a janitor.

But maybe an option should have been that if somebody was there for more than 30 minutes then the self cleaning should have started.

Re:Just Remember...

Hey, the homeless get free showers and the prostitutes stop being dirty*.

Win/Win.

*Of course, she might have to do a little gymnastics depending upon the location of the cleansing jets.

Re:Just Remember...

The insight here was that they were self-cleaning so no need for a janitor.

Let's see: They estimated maintenance costs of $600,000 a year [nwsource.com]. I don't know much about wages in the US, but it's fair to assume that 5 janitors would have done the job at a lower price.

Ignoring the price tag and maintenance cost I'm still wondering why those toilets failed in Seattle. We have toilets from the same manufacturer over here (Berlin, DE) and they don't attract much drug abuse or prostitution, because if you spend too much time in there the door simply opens.
I'm not kidding, it happened to a friend of mine who for some reason unknown to me decided to roll a joint in there. Since he told me I've stopped using them for their intended purpose.

Re:Just Remember...

We have toilets from the same manufacturer over here (Berlin, DE) and they don't attract much drug abuse or prostitution, because if you spend too much time in there the door simply opens.
I'm not kidding, it happened to a friend of mine who for some reason unknown to me decided to roll a joint in there. Since he told me I've stopped using them for their intended purpose.

A) Funny parts bolded.

B) Your friend is slow. I suggest a rolling machine.

Re:Just Remember...

An expensive, fragile, high-tech gadget is dumped into the public space and ends up broken? I'm shocked.

I wonder how the argument for these went:

1. Do you suppose the automatic door-opening could possibly fail or be defeated? No, our technology is foolproof.

2. Do you suppose people may clog it up in a variety of artful ways? No, why would anyone purposefully mess up a public bathroom?

3. Do you suppose it may become a way-station for illegal acts that requires around 15min of privacy? No, all illegal acts require very long times and abundant space.

4. Isn't it expensive to buy/install? Don't worry, people excrete almost continually, the money will just pour in.

5. Won't it be expensive to maintain? No, modern technology maintains itself.

Re:Just Remember...

The reason they can't open the doors after a couple of minutes has to do with ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). At least that is according to Norman Augustine in Augustine's Laws. By law the toilets must be accessible to handicapped persons. It can take a handicapped person a long time to get there business done.

Re:Just Remember...

We have these same toilets here in Holland, and I have also seen them in Spain. They don't seem to have the same problems the article, but I did notice one big difference in the way they are operated is this: Here in Europe you have to pay 50c to use them. In Seattle they seemed to have been free. I doubt any junkie that has to scrape together money for a fix will waste an extra 50c so they can sit on a toilet while they shoot up. I bet that little 50c hassle is probably enough to deter most of people that cause all the problems.

Re:Just Remember...

Hitler was effective government. Stalin was effective government. You sir are clearly living in the safest place on the planet due to what is probably the most innane and ineffective government around. Be happy.

Tragic.

And common.

Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away...

In Vancouver, BC, drug use and prostitution are (if not outright legal) decriminalized. This means that the government is able to help those with a problem instead of being forced to put them away in prison.

The public toilets getting abused is a sign of a much deeper problem. It's the puritanical mindset of Americans that pushes these normal behaviors into the shadows and away from the help that the victims so desperately need.

It's a total waste of time to sell these things. It just means fewer public bathrooms downtown, and if you've ever been to a city with no public bathrooms (Philadelphia), you know that the terrible smell is the result.

Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away...

It's the puritanical mindset of Americans that pushes these normal behaviors into the shadows

Into the shadows? Hardly. Sounds like you've never been to Victor Steinbrueck Park [wikipedia.org] in the middle of the most touristy section of Seattle, where you can see dozens of addicts and homeless cheerfully loitering about day or night. From Wikipedia:

"The park is a popular gathering place for tourists, but also for the mentally ill, vagrants, alcoholics, and drug addicts. Public inebriation, nudity, and calls for assistance for unconscious individuals are common; a fall-off due to increased policing in the 1990s proved shortlived. There are a lot of drug-related misdemeanors and even minor felonies, though there have been no homicides."

The only thing I find shocking is that this outcome surprised anyone.

Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away...

"The park is a popular gathering place for tourists, but also for the mentally ill, vagrants, alcoholics, and drug addicts. Public inebriation, nudity, and calls for assistance for unconscious individuals are common; a fall-off due to increased policing in the 1990s proved shortlived. There are a lot of drug-related misdemeanors and even minor felonies, though there have been no homicides."

Hey I'm british
That describes just about any sort of park I visit

Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away...

I'm guessing you have never been to the downtown east side in Vancouver.

They are not even close to decriminalized. Just because they have one safe injection site does not mean that the police won't arrest you for dealing. It also does not mean they won't arrest you if they catch you using drugs in public.

The reality of the downtown east side is that injection drug use is so rampant that the police couldn't arrest everyone who did it even if they wanted to. The single safe injection site isn't even close to large enough and neither are the detox centers. The result is that the dug users still shoot up in the alleys.

Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away...

There was an article on this in the NY Times a couple of weeks ago. In addition to drug use and prostitution, people would leave so much trash in the toilets that the automatic scrubbers had to be disabled or they jammed on the trash... and as a result, the toilets became so disgusting that even the druggies avoided them.

""I'm not going to lie: I used to smoke crack in there," said one homeless woman, Veronyka Cordner, nodding toward the toilet behind Pike Place Market. "But I won't even go inside that thing now. It's disgusting.""

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/17/us/17toilets.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=seattle%20public%20toilet&st=cse&oref=slogin [nytimes.com]

IMO, the reason this works in other countries but not in the U.S. has nothing to do with our "puritanical mindset": instead, it's because Americans have no concept of public common space. We feel that everything on Earth is for our exclusive personal use until someone tries to stop us.

Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away...

Another reason it fails in the U.S. is that it has a much larger homeless and mentally ill population roaming the streets of its major cities than just about any other first-world country I can name.

Open the pot bay door, Hal

I'm sorry David, I can't do that.

What is the story here?

I'm confused. This type of toilet is quite popular all sorts of places, so I guess they must be cheaper than providing toilets in some other way. But as Seattle aren't going to be replacing them with anything else... that is going to be cheaper. So, what's the story? That Seattle can't afford public toilets?

Well...

That sucks, but this is how progress works. You can't know if something will pan out in advance, because there are too many variables.

And if it had been a massive success, $5M would have been pocket change compared to the convenience and cost effectiveness of full automation.

I hear Google is offering a replacement

Google is offering the use of a new set of public gToilets in exchange for the ability to scan your waste for leftover products and potential diseases and then offer you contextual ads while you're in the unit.

Re:I hear Google is offering a replacement

It appears there is blood in your waste.

Shopping results for colon cancer:
(did you mean inflamatory bowel disease?)

• Buy colon cancer NOW on ebay!
• Imitation colon cancer cheap!
• Garaunteed lowest prices for cancer (google checkout)

Like intentionally uncomfortable benches

This is like when they put up park benches that are intentionally made uncomfortable to sleep on. I understand why, but something is just wrong with society when that happens.

New tag line

Slashdot - news of turds, stuff that splatters.

that's what starbucks is for

and seattle, the home of starbucks, should have known that

i'm dead serious. i live in midtown manhattan, and finding a toilet for a tourist, nevermind a resident, is near impossible were it not for a certain chain of coffee shops that monopolize every street corner. and they always have a restroom (unless they are those tiny stores), and those restrooms are open to the public without fail. there are some starbucks nearby subway entrances where if you go sit, you'll notice there is a regular stream of visitors... to the commode, and no one even pretends to want to buy a coffee

you really have to understand what a blessing this is. it really is unique to starbucks: every other establishment, including mcdonalds and other fast food places, are usually hostile to making its restrooms available. but i guess coffee chases away vagrants, as the unstable and stinky always seem to congregate to mcdonalds for their restroom needs, bothering the grumbling manager behind the counter for a key rather than shuffling a few more steps around the corner to go to a keyless starbucks restroom. why the homeless do this, i don't know, but that is 100% true. habit? familiarity?

i used to think the city made starbucks keep their restrooms open for this very reason, as it is such a huge boon in convenience for midtown visitors, workers, and residents. or perhaps a marketing droid at starbucks headquarters noticed a correlation between sales and restroom availability? who knows, but for a non-new york city resident, it is hard to understand what a blessing starbucks restrooms have been for the city

whatever the reason for the mana from heaven of bum-free starbucks commodes in midtown, i'd like to thank starbucks with my very own original marketing slogan, they can use it free of charge:

"if you are thinking of something steaming and brown, think starbucks in midtown" ;-)

Re:$5,000,000?

Like, you know, every product out there.