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Royal Society "Creationist" Resigns
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Sep 16, 2008 06:28 PM
from the gap-resistent-to-bridging dept.
from the gap-resistent-to-bridging dept.
Chris_Keene writes in to let us know that the Prof. Michael Reiss, who recently caused a storm with comments about teaching creationism in schools, has resigned from his post as director of education at the Royal Society in the UK. This news coincides with word out of the Anglican church that it is ready to apologize to Charles Darwin, 150 years after it poured scorn on his theory of evolution by natural selection. "The Church of England will concede in a statement that it was over-defensive and over-emotional in dismissing Darwin's ideas. It will call 'anti-evolutionary fervor' an 'indictment' on the Church."
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Royal Society and Creationism In Science Classes 892 comments
An anonymous reader writes "The Reverend Professor Michael Reiss, a biologist and Anglican priest, is the education director for the Royal Society, the venerable British science institution. He recently called for creationism to be discussed in science classes, not just in religion or philosophy classes. Science journals reacted with a world of 'WTF' and the Royal Society backpedaled furiously. Now Nobel laureates are gathering to get him fired: 'The thing the Royal Society does not appreciate is the true nature of the forces arrayed against it and the Enlightenment for which the Royal Society should be the last champion.' The blogs, of course, are loving it."
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That was an intelligently designed decision (Score:5, Funny)
Actually, no, it was survival by the fittest.
Re:That was an intelligently designed decision (Score:5, Funny)
Creationists Evolved, Evolutionists were created....
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Re:That was an intelligently designed decision (Score:5, Insightful)
Other way around.
Creationists exist because a clever human engineered a story ("In the beginning...") that could propagate from believer to believer in spite of of evidence to the contrary.
Evolutionists exist because "evolution through natural selection" is the theory that has survived a repeated process of that has rendered (thus far) all competing theories extinct.
If a memetic equivalent of an asteroid strikes (say, a sequence of DNA from a 200-year-old Galapagos Tortoise, that, when translated from base-4 to base-2 and divided into 8-bit bytes, produces ASCII for "This being copyright God, Inc., 4004 BC, and limited license is hereby given to this being to go forth and multiply", and said sequence is discovered before the invention of self-propagating genetically-engineered Galapagos-Tortoise-specific retroviruses), we evolutionists will be happy to reconsider our views. The creationists, not so much.
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Re:That was an intelligently designed decision (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:That was an intelligently designed decision (Score:5, Insightful)
It doesn't tackle those subjects yet you always see those lumped into evolutionary discussions.
You're absolutely right; people act as if it's creationism vs evolution, but it's actually creationism vs the whole of science. If creationism is right we've got geological science wrong, the science of star and planet formation wrong, the speed of light wrong, radioactive decay rates, the universe's rate of expansion, the doppler shift's effect on light, the cause of the background x-ray radiation, etc, etc.
If it was just creationism vs evolution creationists wouldn't be so hypocritical when they accept the parts of science which they think fit.
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Re:That was an intelligently designed decision (Score:5, Insightful)
umm no.
the theory of evolution makes no claims on the origin of life.
the big bang is more of an attempt at that, sure, and it too supported by much evidence. like all things in science, evolution and big bang are the best we have right now given what we know, can observe and test against. that's infinitely more useful than what creationists have(nothing), and it certainly isn't a religion as you attempt to claim.
science follows theories best supported by evidence. if evidence contradicts the theory it must be adapted.
there is no reason to expect science will ever know how everything originated with high certainty. we may simply not have access to information needed to study and test with.
feel free to provide your arguments for why evolutionists should change their views. so far you have parroted typical creationist nonsense, typically fed by total ignorance of the theories you are arguing against.
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What a waste. (Score:5, Insightful)
More than anything, this is an indictment on the scientists who pressured the good doctor out of his posting. He was bullied out for a misquote.
Unfortunately, rather than engage in a reasonable debate over the unreasonable subject, he rationally decided to avoid the controversy completely by leaving.
No matter what, the Royal Society is the loser here. Once they realized they were debating a misquote, the reasonable approach would have been to end the matter. Instead, they let the issue fester until a good man stepped down with a now-tarnished reputation.
Re:What a waste. (Score:5, Informative)
Agreed, and just for reference (since Slashdot, along with the rest of the media, seem unwilling to link to them):
Here is what he originally said: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2008/sep/11/michael.reiss.creationism [guardian.co.uk]
Here is the clarification just one day later: http://royalsociety.org/news.asp?id=8004 [royalsociety.org]
I think he expressed his views rather poorly in what was said originally, making it easy to misread unless you look very closely. And it was reasonable to express criticism over that. But the media should not ignore the clarification after it has been made.
Sure, there's a valid argument that it's better not to mention creationism at all (even to debunk it and explain why it isn't science, as Reiss was suggesting), but let's be clear: he was not advocating teaching creationism.
To suggest otherwise is just the sort of thing IDers want - do we really want them to be able to say "Leading scientists support teaching creationism in science lessons"? Of course not, which is why this myth should not be propagated.
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Re:What a waste. -- Mod up (Score:5, Insightful)
You make this great point when you say:.
To suggest otherwise is just the sort of thing IDers want. . .
The effective firing of this man also plays into the hands of the "IDers". They can now decry the persecution of this individual (you know they will) and get good millage out of the argument because they would not have be totally wrong in this case. The Royal Society should not have caved in this way.
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Re:What a waste. (Score:5, Insightful)
Everything in his essay seems reasonable to me. The fuss arose in part, I think, because attacks on the scientific community have forced scientists into such a bunker mentality that they acted irrationally (i.e., not like scientists)
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Re:please, please ... (Score:5, Interesting)
2.) Religious persons are fully capable of using the empirical method to logically deduce (and/or prove/discover) and record evidence (i.e. "science"). They shouldn't let their convictions stand in the way of their findings and remain a large part of an empirical system such as the royal society--but they shouldn't be completely disregarded by the society for a misguided attempt at teaching a social science alongside a theory of science. And in the end that's all he wanted to do. Teach a historically valid world view that is being phased out due to vast scientific evidence. Believing and learning about old beliefs and pseudo-sciences are two different things entirely. And refusing to listen to your opponent's argument isn't science: its ignorance.
3.) From another article about him, I already read he also wanted to try to help kids who get picked on in science classes for their religious belief. Science should take precedent in a place of logic and learning over religion (especially in a state that holds a firm belief in religious tolerance). But the school should not be a place that allows religious intolerance to spread, even if it spreads as a result of empiricists ragging on dualists (I'm assuming dualism here as its "god created everything", making a clear separation from reality and the spiritual world).
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Re:please, please ... (Score:5, Insightful)
1.) This man didn't put religious belief higher than science. He just said it should be taught in school rather than ignored, but still taught in a way that promotes the theory of evolution as a science, and creationism as a religious belief not founded on logic and empirical evidence. He didn't want to waste hours on end talking about creationism--he just wanted to explain WHY its not science. Nor did he want to profess it was right.
This is why philosophy should be taught (again) at the high school level. Creationism, intelligent design, etc., are important topics for any introduction to philosophy class. And when they are taught in a philosophy class, they actually promote critical thinking. On the other hand, when they are taught as an alternative in a science class, they only promote closed thinking.
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Re:please, please ... (Score:5, Informative)
Go read the article.
The original story was based on a misquote. The article that this summary links to says so. Why does the summary imply that the original story valid while linking to one that debunks it!?
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Re:please, please ... (Score:5, Insightful)
anyone who puts religious convictions or beliefs higher than their science, are not worthy of any scientific post. royal society did the right thing.
Please RTFA. By your standard, the royal society did not do the right thing, because the professor did not advocate, putting his, "religious convictions or beliefs higher" than science. He clearly stated in his original article that creationism or intelligent design where not scientific viewpoints and should not be taught as such. He was misquoted.
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Re:please, please ... (Score:5, Insightful)
But he didn't do that!
He just said that science teachers should be free to discuss creationism, i.e. why it isn't science.
The creationists couldn't have asked for a better outcome. They have always claimed that scientists "believe" in evolution as if it is was a religious faith, and that they won't tolerate criticism of their ideas or other beliefs. Scientists always said that was nonsense... and yet, now we have an example of a man who has been persecuted for speaking out of turn.
The greatest threat to science isn't the creationists, but the armies of Dawkinsbots who defend "science" with fundamentalist fervour. If you're going to fight creationism, you have to stick to the facts, otherwise you're as irrational as they are.
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Re:please, please ... (Score:5, Informative)
Sigh. Learn to fucking read.
The guy's original article essentially boils down to: "If students ask about creationism, science teachers should explain why it's bullshit."
What part of that do you disagree with?
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Re:The good doctor was a vicar instead (Score:5, Insightful)
He just showed them why it is not such a good idea to put a religious person at the head of a science organisation
Because people will attack him irrationally? That doesn't make sense.
he could have given up his religious position too, that would have been much more convincing
How would that have been more convincing? People thought he was asking to teach creationism in school, which he wasn't, and they were refusing to believe the truth even when the option for evidence was out there. Why would his stepping down from his position as a priest have been any more effective? Because scientists are taking an irrational stance towards religious people?
The point of the matter is that this is a classic example of intolerance because of his beliefs, not his performance. He was put at the head of the science organization for a reason, so presumably he was a good scientist. Why do his religious beliefs and practices suddenly matter if not because of an irrational bias against religion?
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Re:The good doctor was a vicar instead (Score:5, Insightful)
Richard Dawkins is an atheist who believes that science and faith are fundamentally incompatible, so it makes sense that he'd think that. But that is not a consensus view among scientists. Plenty of other people think that science is compatible with religion and spirituality because they address different concerns.
Unless the Royal Society is now taking positions on the acceptability of religion, there should be no consideration given, pro or con, to the religious beliefs or affiliations of its officers.
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romancer (Score:5, Informative)
The statement quotes Reiss saying, "Creationism has no scientific basis."
He goes on to say, "However, when young people ask questions about creationism in science classes, teachers need to be able to explain to them why evolution and the Big Bang are scientific theories but they should also take the time to explain how science works and why creationism has no scientific basis.
"I have referred to science teachers discussing creationism as a worldview'," he goes on to say, "this is not the same as lending it any scientific credibility."
Re:romancer (Score:5, Insightful)
That's exactly what he was saying.
If you approach someone with a holier-than-thou attitude or mock them, they get pissed off and the discussion becomes a personal conflict. If you insult (not "state something that conflicts with", but actually insult) something that they regard as part of their culture, it becomes a political conflict.
Once that happens, none of the logic you throw at someone is going to make a bit of difference.
If you want to fight someone, insult them. If you want to convince someone, educate them.
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No good deed goes unpunished (Score:5, Insightful)
Whether he was right or wrong, as I understamd it, A scientist should be able to state his ideas without fear of reprisals such as that.
Its the scientific version of the Church vs Galileo.
Re:Evolution (Score:5, Funny)
Gravity is just a theory, not a proven fact, but I still fall over...
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Sigh, ... (Score:5, Informative)
Gravity is a fact, the Theory of gravity is the mechanism by which it works.
Evolution is a fact, Darwin's Theory of evolution is the mechanism by which it happens.
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Re:First Intelligently Designed Trout! (Score:5, Funny)
I AM A FISH!
I am the walrus.
That means you are dinner.
(And before some smart-ass tells me that walruses prefer mollusks, yeah, I know. Now stop trying to ruin my joke.)
(And before some smart-ass tells me that I did that all on my own, yeah, I know. Now stop trying to ruin my meta-joke.)
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Re:First Intelligently Designed Trout! (Score:5, Funny)
wehat dio yoiui meaan fgins domnt woerk, yiou inswensatiove clode!
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