Astronomers Revel In Former NSA Site 270
westfirst writes "Welded carpets, strange light fixtures, odd graffiti, and a happy face painted on a radio antenna. All of these details and more X-Files grade mysteries are reported by the Baltimore Sun They're all buried deep in the North Carolina woods where a bunch of radio astronomers have inherited an old surveillance site abandoned by the NSA. Now, how can I get that carpet in my house?"
Re:Sweeping possible... (Score:2)
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Gonzo Granzeau
Re:Four foot door? (Score:2)
The triangles are made from some material that i'm unaware of...probably canvas, but anyways they move when you push one because the room is pressurized to keep the radome more stable the door is smaller than normal to keep from having huge pressure changes.
Re:Sweeping possible... (Score:1)
And for radio astronomy you'd also get the fun of compensating for Doppler effects from the advancing/receding edges of the dish and the Earth's movement combined with the movement of the dish. Ick.
On the other hand, maybe when they're not doing astronomy they could fire up the small dish and do astronomical radar sweeps of the area near Earth. I wonder if they could pick up near-miss rocks that the optical astronomers are missing, such as that 50-foot chunk over London last month.
Re:Defenses? (Score:1)
Since deception is a large part of the NSA's game, they're OBVIOUSLY Decepticons. I know, it's a forehead smacker.
Re:Scary (Score:1)
Assuming you believe "we" were taken by surprise in the first place.
yup (Score:1)
yup, worry worry worry.
So should US, but the friendly services of other countries bother me much more. British MI, did plenty of dirty work for the US in the US durring WWII. After jailing their own dissent, they turned their attention on US isolationists. Nudge nudge, wink wink, said FDR. Having someone to blame can be worse than having someone to do things for you.
Ohhh, creepy thought. The song of the day in MiniLove, "you only hurt the ones you love."
Re:Visit Scenic North Carolina! (Score:1)
"North Carolina: First in Freedom, First in Flight, now... First in Fish!"
Gimme a break.. that's what *I* want my state to be known for. First in Fish.
I like "First in large mysterious government complexes deep in the Great Smokey Mountains" better...
Foo (Score:2)
Wanna know how to solve the poverty problem? Feed the homeless to the hungry.
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Re:Sweeping possible... (Score:2)
It's not quite that easy. The sorts of signals we deal with in astronomy are really quite faint. To get good signal-to-noise, you generally have to point at one spot on the sky for a good while - minutes to hours, usually. Hence the desire for the dishes to track exactly at the rotation rate of the Earth, but in the opposite direction, thereby enabling them to stare in one spot while the Earth turns under them. Yes, with faster slew you could glance at a large area of the sky quite rapidly, but you wouldn't get any usable data that way.
Re:Four foot door? (Score:5)
Not really, no.
You've got this large, relatively futuristic building with gyrating triangles, and a door not big enough to fit most humans.
I think "most humans" would have no trouble ducking down a little to enter this building.
Perfect Dark grey theory, anyone?
HAHAHA no.
A plausible theory is that this ball serves the exact same purpose as the most of the special decorations on the entire site, which is to reduce interference, in this case to the Big Dish inside. Like the article says, the triangles of varying size can help to reduce interference caused by repeated patterns.
But I see your line of thinking! Maybe the door isn't four feet high because they didn't want to disrupt the damping triangles too much. Maybe it's four feet high because the NSA holds parties for extraterrestrials on top of a giant satellite dish. And they have these parties at NSA headquarters in Fort Meade too, because there are big golf balls there too, according to the article. Or maybe they're too stupid to operate this perfectly normal satellite dish by themselves, and they have to get aliens to do it for them! Yeah, that sounds about right.
Wait, this is Slashdot. Carry on.
Sat photos Found (Score:5)
More Info on the Site (Score:2)
Rosman Research Station Rosman, NC
The Rosman Research Station is located in the Pisgah National Forest of North Carolina's Smoky Mountains, near Balsam Grove, NC, off Route 215 approximately 11 kilometers north of Route 64. The station, which closed in 1994, was operated by approximately 250 NSA, Bendix Field Engineering and TRW employees.
The National Aeronautics and Space Administration began operations at the Rosman Spaceflight Tracking Station in 1963, and ceased activities there in January 1981. During NASA's tenure the station supported a number of space projects, including the Apollo and Apollo-Soyuz missions. The station at Rosman was turned over to the General Services Administration by NASA on 1 February 1981. The facility was converted by the Department of Defense for use as a Communications Research Station, a process which was completed in early July 1981. Initially there were approximately 35 contract personnel living in the area, but when the project became operational in July, this number increased to approximately 75 employees. The NSA role at Rosman apparently began almost immediately thereafter. By 1985 this number was reported to have grown to 250 employees, with annual payroll at $5 million, an average of $20,000 a year [The Asheville Citizen 20 June 1985]. For FY85 NSA requested $500,000 for construction of an electric substation to provide additional electric transformer capacity that is required to support station operations. It is difficult to ascertain the total number of satellite receiving antenna at the facility. These at least include two very large dishes, approximately 27.5 feet in diameter (the size of the biggest dish left by NASA), and a smaller 6.2 meter radome.
The Rosman Station was used to intercept telephone and other communications traffic carried by commercial and other communications satellites in geostationary orbit over the Western hemisphere. Potential targets of interest could include Latin American military, diplomatic and commercial traffic as well as domestic US traffic and drug traffickers in the Caribbean.
Re:Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute (Score:2)
Details on the Mickey Mouse golf ball [pari.edu]
An overview picture of the compound. [pari.edu] I wonder if there is a reason for the trees planted neatly in a row?
Re:Radomes: so we don't know where they're looking (Score:2)
Re:More info about the Carolinas... (Score:2)
Man, am I ever glad I moved out of Brunswick County.
Made for TV (Score:2)
Re:Why didn't the NSA demolish it? (Score:2)
Cat Light (Score:3)
Inheritance (Score:2)
Is it possible that they've given this place to radio astronomers because they can do the least damage with it? Imagine a satellite set-up this intense in the hands of dedicated SETI guys.
Re:A few notes (Score:2)
Full story here [sfgate.com]
Re:Welded carpet? (Score:2)
ESD shoes make your feet sweat more than most regualar shoes so you conduct better to them, and have conductive insides and soles. Works well, and you end up with a lot less part mysteriously failing...
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Re:Defenses? (Score:2)
Re:Building 2 Helimano (Score:2)
Re:Sweeping possible... (Score:2)
Re:Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute (Score:2)
Yeah, looks exactly like a 9-hole par-3 course to me (albeit without greens or sandtraps). Now wondering if it was just camo to try fooling the russians into thinking it was just a golf course, or did the NSA guys just like to keep their game up?
Re:tee hee. (Score:2)
Nah. It'd be burned to the ground during one of their ``controlled'' burns.
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It's just good basic engineering (Score:2)
A few notes (Score:2)
For those who are wondering what PCBs are, here's an EPA site [epa.gov] about 'em. They're also an important part of Neal Stephenson's novel Zodiac [amazon.com].
This behavior doesn't appear to be unusual; recently in San Francisco, where the Navy has an old shipyard that's filled with random toxic waste, an underground fire burned for a month without public notice. See the SF Cronicle article [ttp] here.
Re:Welded carpet? (Score:3)
I'm pretty sure static can be kept to a minimum with far less drastic measures.
However, it doesn't really surprise me considering who the former tenants were.
--K
Re:Welded carpet? (Score:2)
However, having the carpet grounded would in fact reduce, all though not eliminate the possibility of static electicity jumping. That's why I'm not sure the purpose really is to help static electricity. Consider the following two scenarios:
1. You walk around on a carpet, stealing electrons from it and giving it a charge of say, +x, and building up a negative charge on yourself of -x. You then touch the carpet, causing all those electrons to leap off you and arc back to the carpet. You could also touch a neutral piece of electronics (charge 0), which would accept half of your electrons (give or take) and fry itself.
2. You walk around on a grounded carpet, stealing electrons from it and building a charge on yourself. However, since it's grounded there is an unlimited number to steal. Furthermore, since the carpet isn't building up a huge negative charge, it has no problem giving up more electrons (say -2x). Thus, you could conceivably build up a *bigger* charge than before. This would result in more of a shock when transferring the charge back to a neutral piece of equipment.
Am I missing something here? Unless you're also wearing a conducting strap connected to your body and the bottoms of your feet, there's no benefit. In that case, you stay neutral because any electrons you steal are immediately returned to ground. Are the electronics that sensitive that the worker's can't just ground themselves when they're working on them?
Walt
Building 2 Helimano (Score:5)
A huge communications complex. complete with Kitchen, Basketball court, Tons of Ancient ceramic and bakelite 66 blocks (telephone punch down blocks), A huge generator room and 8 Transformers the size of 55 gallon drums.
Rotted Open
Sitting in a lake of PCB's
Needless to say we did not explore the tunnel that had been bricked over that was 15 feet wide and 20 foot tall. Later we discovered plans to Bldg 2. That tunnel went all the way to Schofield Barracks.
Big enough to drive a Semi through.
We called the EPA. They took plastic barrels that bolt together down the hole and presumably put alll the pcb's in them. The barrels never came out. Once assembled and filled they were left in place for the next impromptu archeologist. The man hole was welded shut.
There is now an entire community built over the site. Training area 4 is now entirely military housing. No Superfund. No Press.
Just a manhole welded shut in the middle of a schoolyard
Re:Electron Freedom League (Score:3)
Yes, as a temporary member (eventually, I will free all my electrons too and cease to be a member) of the Electron Freedom League, I have to concur. This anti-static bias is clearly a plot to deny electrons the freedom they deserve. Static electricity is a very common way for electrons to free themselves from their terrible bondage to protons. Reducing it can only have the effect of extending the bondage and slavery (electrons are the workhorses of all chemical reactions) of most atoms.
Electrons of the world, unite!
Brought to you by The Electron Freedom LeagueSo I was wondering... (Score:3)
This is just like reading your computer monitor at a distance from the electromagnetic signals given off.
Re:Sweeping possible... (Score:2)
You'd just need to get the message from the initial detection to the dishes quickly. I guess all that fibre'd help as well.
You have no idea..... (Score:2)
Secondly, every island is a little more wierd than the next. Kahoolawe used to be a Navy Air Bombing site. Today you can take tours of the special beauty of the island. Not limited to the *live* bombs laying on the ground, as well as *marked* landmine fields.
Green Harvest (local government agency dedicated to eradicating marijuana) dropped what initially looks like little orange balls all over the Big island (You guys call it the isle of Hawaii, we call it Big island). Turns out that when the balls impact something solid, they release a gas that will supposedly kill *only* Marijuana, turns out that it's actually an Agent Orange Derivative, that was being *tested*. Hundreds got sick and sued, Green Harvest's funding is in jeapordy as a result.
On Kauai we have the PMRF (Pacific Missile Range Facility). The PMRF is the *entire* US west coast defense system, I'll give you three guesses to figure out what kind of missile(s) protects the entire west coast of America.
Hawaii is a very fuc*ed up place. Hearing that about Oahu does not suprise me at all.
Surfing is religion
you are silly
Re:Scary (Score:2)
Radomes: so we don't know where they're looking... (Score:2)
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An aerial image...and how to get there (Score:2)
The squiggly gray line running north-south through the center of the image is NC Highway 215. The splotch at center-left, with features that look like terraces at this scale, is your destination: the former Rosman Research Station. Mapquest [mapquest.com] identifies the east-west road running toward the station as Macedonia Church Road, and the last turn into the station as Neil Armstrong Road.
So here are complete directions:
From Asheville, take I-26 east; or, fly to the Asheville Airport.
From either I-26 or the airport, turn right onto NC Highway 280, toward Brevard. If you came from I-26, NC 280 will pass the airport.
NC 280 ends just inside the Brevard city limits, near a shopping center with a Wal-Mart and a Pizza Hut. Go straight through the light. You are now westbound on US Highway 64.
Follow US 64 through Brevard. An alternate route is to turn right onto Caldwell Street near the Brevard Motor Lodge; it rejoins US 64 at its other end.
Past Brevard, US 64 passes a Conoco station and then goes over a mountain. Stay on US 64 for about a half mile past the mountain, until you reach a right turn onto NC Highway 215.
Now here's where my recall is rather fuzzy; Mapquest [mapquest.com] to the rescue. After about five miles on NC 215 (drive carefully!) turn left onto Macedonia Church Road, and then onto Neil Armstrong Road.
You're there.
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Ooh, moderator points! Five more idjits go to Minus One Hell!
Delenda est Windoze
Make Money... (Score:5)
Viv
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I Use Napster. I use DeCSS. I buy over $1000 a year in CD/DVDs.
Welded carpet? (Score:5)
Somewhere, a government-contract carpet layer is reading this and having some nasty flashbacks to that job.
Re:Scary (Score:2)
We sacrificed Pearl Harbor to prevent the Japanese from finding out we had cracked their codes.
DUH!
Haven't you watched the History channel?
Sweeping possible... (Score:3)
With the proper computer equipment, they might be able scan large chunks of sky quickly, due to the speed of the dishes. Plus, they'd be a perfect reference check for the SETI folk, due to the speed at which they can test a signal and localize it. They could check areas around signals to make sure it's not a mistake and such. I'm sure these can be used for great science... Makes you wonder what other modern equipment the NSA has.
But I have to say the riveted carpeting... wow. In our current data center, we have carpeting on a raised floor, but I'm not sure it's static free. I wonder if that will ever make it into the civilian market...
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Gonzo Granzeau
Re:Building 2 Helimano (Score:2)
standing on the over the hole I was almost overcome by what I belive was methane
Heh... I think I'd walk the quarter mile for the cigarette, too.
Re:The past (Score:5)
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Another ex-government facility put to good use (Score:2)
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The past (Score:3)
The part that scares me is this: the NSA has jurisdiction inside the USA, unlike the CIA which does not. I do not think most /.'s would be comfortable with the NSA in thier backyard.
Conduction... (Score:2)
The result, they eventually realized, is that the rugs prevent the buildings from conducting static electricity.
Perhaps this is to stop any EMP attacks such as that mentioned on Slashdot last week?
Cool (Score:2)
Re:Four foot door? (Score:2)
Re:Make Money... (Score:2)
We have tours running out of one of our Prime Minister's bomb shelters - the place is huge! The Diefenbunker in Carp is a riot.
Right now the government is trying to sell it - one party interested in it was a Bike Gang, and another party interested in it is a group who wants to grow the Government sanction marijuana. Hmm... Bikers, marijuana - same group? But I digress...
Seriously, a tour would be cool - I'd pay money to see inside the giant "golf ball". Other people pay money to see other tourist traps. And the neat thing about this one is that it might be out of cell phone operation range! (I hate the buggers - especially people who bring them on vacation.)
Re:Cat Light (Score:2)
Re:The past (Score:2)
Better Stuff (Score:2)
I'm Sure they had better stuff All ready for them at the new site so they through their old junk away to make room for the new.
whatever (Score:2)
i did say that if they recouped their investment of materials at the site (say auctioned them off) and then donated that revenue stream to education (like grants for college freshmen,) we'd be better off.
whaddya think - WPI gets no federal funding?
please - troll elsewhere.
Re:Sweeping possible... (Score:3)
Burris
Re:Sweeping possible... (Score:2)
Where did you see that in the article?
Some USAF optical telescopes used for tracking have redundant three-axis mounts. These are used for tracking satellite and ICBM launches. The idea is to set the two outer axes to align with the trajectory so that the trajectory-following is done with the innermost, and fastest, axis of the mount.
It's also common to have mounts that can go up through the zenith and down the other side, so you don't have to do a fast 180 on the vertical axis during tracking.
None of this is surprising; if you want to track low-orbit targets, it's what you have to do.
Fund Raising (Score:2)
Just in case any of the astronomers are reading...
Need money? How about using some of that fiber and building space for outsourced data centers? How about renting time on the golf ball satellite to private companies? Surely someone could find some use for it. And turn the paper shredding building into a community paper recycling center! I'm sure there are dozens of other ways you could branch out for funding...
Re:Building 2 Helimano (Score:2)
Do you have pictures of the welded shut manhole, even? Any evidence? Even pictures of the schoolyard or new subdivision?
Can any slashdot readers in Hawaii verify that this place exists?
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
Re:Welded carpet? (Score:2)
Just to throw out a useless fact, all the light that has been gathered and analyzed by all the radio telescopes in the world _ever_ is not enough energy to power a 100WATT light bulb. These devices are that sensative. Hence the reason for them being in West VA and SC... considering they can observe straight through cloud cover day and night.
Why didn't the NSA demolish it? (Score:2)
I don't doubt that there's nothing meaningful to be learned by spooks from the empty buildings and general layout, but given the NSA's relentless obesssion with secrecy, letting someone know how they do *anything*, from park their cars to carpet their floors, seems like something they wouldn't allow. Leaving it all there like an NSA ghost town-cum-museum seems a little unusual.
On an unrelated note, why is the Air Force demolishing decomissioned missle silos in North Dakota? Is it a START/SALT requirement, or is the Air Force more relentlessly secretive than the NSA?
Re:Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute (Score:2)
Oddly enough, I was wondering the same thing myself. I started thinking "This is the NSA, so there has to be a pattern!" So I pulled up the TerraServer image [microsoft.com] of the site, and took a long look at them to figure out the pattern and ascertain their purpose.
My conclusion? They're to anchor the hillside and keep it from sliding down onto the telescopes
We have a few "golf balls" in the UK... (Score:2)
http://www.blitzbasic.com/
Niftus maximus (Score:3)
Re:Sat photos Found (Score:2)
Here [microsoft.com] is a better, more complete view. It's closer in and shows the entire base.
Metal to *prevent* conduction? (Score:2)
Oh well, anyway, it's still all pretty cool, and I envy the folks who get to work there (mainly for the nice cabling setup).
Re:The past (Score:5)
If I lived in N.C. ... (Score:2)
Re:Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute (Score:2)
Re:Sweeping possible... (Score:5)
I like this line:
"I've never had someone come here that wasn't blown away."
...and neither has the NSA! ba-dum cha!
But seriously, folks...
Re:Metal to *prevent* conduction? (Score:3)
Is it just me, or does the article have this backwards? Sure, I'm just nit-picking, but it seems that one would install such metal fibers to promote conduction and thus prevent the build-up of static charge. Consider conductive anti-stat floor mats, wrist straps, et cetera, which make this seem not-so unusual (except that it's built into the carpet).
No - it's not just you. I think they probably intended to say that the metal filaments helped to prevent a build up of static charge in any location. People get confused because static electricity is a fairly misleading name - really all they mean is that a potential difference builds up in a locality and is only slowly dispersed into the surroundings because of the high conductivity of the environment.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Re:Scary (Score:2)
Some sense of thriftiness would be appropriate. Selling the fiber optic cable in and of itself could have help offset the national debt. Not by much, but every dollar counts.
Re:Scary (Score:2)
It's amazing what Peral Harbor can do to the American psyche. We vowed never again to be taken by surprise - that's what these installations are for.
Re:The past (Score:2)
I used to live there... (Score:2)
Re:Make Money... (Score:2)
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Re:hmmm.... (Score:2)
hmmm suspicious... more likely... (Score:2)
Linux Official 2.4 Kernel fast mirror.... CLICK HERE [209.233.130.20]
Re:Static Electricity... no, RF shielding (Score:2)
NSA not so secretive (Score:2)
In fact the NSA has a ton of technology on display at the Museum of Cryptology. I went there last summer and saw a Cray, a big black Thinking Machines doohickey, some finger print scanners and several Enigma machines. All technology you can read about in more than 4 locations so it's no longer secret.
I'm glad the astronimers got to reap the benefit. It doesn't sound like anything the NSA left behind needed to be kept secret and someone now makes good use of it.
Honestly... what's the big deal? (Score:4)
Ask Mickey Mouse... he's had that technology for years.
More info about the Carolinas... (Score:2)
Additionally, for those who would believe that the Carolinas is just a rural backwash state, consider this: The United States Armed Forces have a rather large concetration of firepower located in the Carolinas and surrounding area. Seymour Air Force base located in NC, houses the First Strike Eagles (F-15E). Pope Air Force base is also located in NC. The Army's Fort Bragg and the Marine's Camp Lejeune are located in NC. And finally, the Navy's Shore Intermediate Maintenance Activity is located in Norfolk, VA (which is near NC). Thus the Carolinas is a fairly important region.
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute (Score:5)
click tour for site layout and pics!
i guess their mission statement puts me more at ease.
What do they have *now*?? (Score:2)
Surely they didn't move to cardboard boxes, or some ol' generic office park.
If they threw this away.... the scary aspect is _what_did_they_move_into_?
Guess we'll know in 20 years....
Real purpose of the campus... (Score:2)
So, where is the undersea X-Com facility? Note to self: never board a ship named "Hyperion".
Static Electricity... no, RF shielding (Score:4)
They were doing satellite eavesdropping, so they want to eliminate as much interference to their dishes as possible. Location gave them isolation from external sources, they just have to make sure that their own computers and whatnot don't kill the RF quiet that they worked so hard to create.
big backyards (Score:2)
hey, does that mean the rest of us (the vast majority of the world) *should* worry about the CIA ? ;-)
Mind you my backyard is a small carpark so I'd probably notice if an 85 foot radio satellite dish appeared there one morning...
Visit Scenic North Carolina! (Score:2)
where we were first in flight, home of RedHat, and large mysterious government complexes deep in the Great Smoky Mountains.
Surely there's a connection in there....
Victor in Raleigh
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
Four foot door? (Score:3)
Perfect Dark grey theory, anyone?
Re:are you serious (Score:3)
it seemed wasteful, but i guess it would be all worth it is we got one more kid interested in astronomy or one or college student who was able to do their master's thesus while working there.
less caffine for me...
link [pari.edu] for you to site - good pics of smiley dish!
Re:The past (Score:2)
Re:The past (Score:5)
Reference Executive Order 12333, Intelligence Oversight.
LCpl George E. Worroll Jr, United States Marine Corps
NSA Mission (Score:2)
To protect the communications of the U.S. Government.
So with that in mind it is not at all surprising that their juristiction includes the US. Why should we be uncomfortable with that? Are you uncomfortable that the #1 spy agency (the FBI) has juristiction inside the US? I do worry about the ATF guys, but when they can capture people like McVeigh and the World Trade Center bombers I know they are out there to protect me.
I think a lot of negative press has been given to our intelligence agencies. The CIA looks like dumb assess on our very biased news coverage, the DIA and NSA look like geeks with incredible powers and the FBI is seen as a mad house. However, not everything you read or hear repeated is true. I found out recenty that JEH was NOT a crossdresser. That is a myth that was used to discredit him. He was a bully, but why bother to lie like that? The truth always comes out.
--Peter
Defenses? (Score:5)
But are they Autobots or Decepticons?
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If Bill Gates had a nickel for every time Windows crashed...
This is all standard stuff (Score:5)
Apparently this is more common than we all realize.
Re:Cat Light (Score:4)
We have tons and tons of resources thrown at the 'anti-static' problem. I would propose that all facilities be required to provide an pro-static work area. Two possible arrangements come immediately to mind:
1. Electronic workbenches with a worksurface composed of cat's fur. The hand tools should all be made of glass.
2. Electronic workbenches made with a worksurface composed of steel. The hand tools should all be made out of flint.
Employees who work at either type of facility should be encouraged to wear polyester clothing, and shoes with teflon soles, of course.
There's been a clear anti-static bias in the industry for far too long, and it's time for that to change.
Re:Sweeping possible... (Score:2)
Re:ESD??? (Score:2)
They'd have to, if there were any electronics there they wanted to keep (and the story was correct in it's physics..)
First, if they wanted to prevent the building from conducting static electricity, they would use an insulator, not a conductor (metal is a conductor)..
Second, if you did prevent a building from conducting static, then the static electricity would build up in the people (or anything else moving around) and spark whenever you got near something grounded (like an electronic device)..
If the writer didn't screw things up, I think they got the purpose right, but the physics wrong - if static was an issue, the carpet was there to increase the building's conductivity of static electricity, which would minimize it. (The static would dissipate all the time, instead of building up and zapping something.)
Getting young folk interested... (Score:2)
It would be great if more of these could be available where there are more ``youngsters''. So many of the telescopes that the general public might have a chance of looking through are found in larger cities where the light pollution has rendered them all but unusable for any serious viewing. Even then, I suppose those might be worth something; you may still find them useful to look at the moon. Which could still be enough to inspire the next generation of astronomers.
But, hey! What about us ``oldsters''?
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Re:More info about the Carolinas... (Score:2)
To think... backwoods rednecks are the only segment of society with a decent chance of surviving a nuclear war and its aftermath. Makes you wish more of Jeff Foxworthies stuff applied to you...
Re:This is all standard stuff (Score:4)