New Machines From Sun 205
Another reader, nameless for his or her own protection, writes with more Sun hardware information: "Sun / Cobalt announced their new XTR machine ... I know a bit about it from their beta but couldn't say anything due to non-disclosure until they announced it.
It's not an AMD chip as has been reported, it uses Intel Coppermine P3's running up to 933 Mhz (or at least that's the highest they offer right now). Apparently the P3 was picked for lower heat/power consumption and so that they can do SMP in the near future. The unit we saw had a 2nd socket for SMP but the BIOS and software is not ready for it for this release. I'm guessing in another 6 months or so they'll release an SMP version.
This unit also had standard IDE drives in the 4 (yep, 4 all available in the front) hotswap bays but the sleds and backplane look like their considering SCA SCSI drives in the future, all they need to do is swap the controller card and drives and everything is ready since the controller is no longer built-in to the motherboard and the backplane has SCA connectors (the sled adapts the IDE drive to an SCA connector)."
That X1, besides giving you a rack-mounted 400MHz UltraSPARC for your under-a-grand, has what I think is the largest silkscreened logo I've ever seen on a computer. Why don't they just admit they want to and start hiring graphic artists from skateboard companies?
Cobalt Acquisition (Score:2)
Re:OK, so it's cheap... (Score:2)
Re:Timestamp? (Score:1)
-antipop
Re:1U Machines (Score:2)
Re:Ummm, holy shit. (Score:2)
Isn't that an oxymoron? Of all the firewall products I've ever had the, errr, pleasure to work on, Firewall-1 is the least advanced, most unpleasant. The ipfilter module for Solaris is just as functional and at least it's open-sourced.
-=-=-=-=-
Re:Why? why? why? (Score:2)
Re:It looks like it only holds 2 drives (Score:1)
How does this compare? (Score:1)
Availability info... (Score:1)
(from Sun's site):
Pricing and Availability
Sun's Netra X1 thin server will be available starting March 6, 2001 through Sun and Sun's existing worldwide sales channels. The starting list price is $995 for a system configured with an UltraSPARC IIe 400MHz processor, 128MB memory (1GB max), 1-20GB hard drive (2 drives max), and Solaris 8 and LOM management software pre-installed.
http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2001-01/sunf lash.20010117.4.html;$sessionid$EBXDBFYAAANTXAMTA1 FU45Q [sun.com]
Re:As soon as... (Score:1)
However, for a multiprocessor box, yes anyone running linux on it is insane. Im intrested in what makes you prefer solaris(symantics, os feature, preformance, or
*Not a Sermon, Just a Thought
*/
Why Sun? (Score:2)
Re:How about a low price desktop next... (Score:1)
here. You can order a set of CDs, or download
it from the web site.
2 problems (Score:3)
1) The drives are non SCSI, so in sun land, you can't mirror the hard drives [1]
2) (Follows from 1) The drives don't hot swap.
Sun has long lagged behind Compaq (the intel servers I see most at my work) and probably others in shipping with RAID chips that can cover the 2-5 hot swap, SCSI drives that can go in the chassie. Now I understand charging serious cash for external storage, but for the root drives, lay off.
[1] Note: if there is a way around this, I would LOVE to hear it, but every where I've seen, unless you have 2 different IDE busses, you can't mirror root drives.
Re:Sparc Skateboard.. (Score:1)
sue me, now I did it too ;-)
Re:1U Machines (Score:3)
We have bought several of these for production use, and so far they are very nice. Starting at just $859.00 they are cheap, small, and all round just pretty nifty.
You're using a free computer? (Score:1)
Windows is expensive. Solaris isn't.
Re:Sun Slashdotted (Score:1)
Re:Sun is a bunch of bastards (Score:2)
The RAM _is_ silly expensive, but even maxed out with two drives and 512MB, we still get them for less than $7000.
Re:2 problems (Score:1)
Re:But can they deliver? (Score:2)
We ordered a Sun Blade when it came out, back in November. We still haven't seen it yet. Sun keeps claiming that it will ship Real Soon Now(tm).
We have one in our firm - 2X750MHz, 2GB RAM, 2X36GB 10k RPM FCAL disks, two Sun 17 inch (I think) flat panels - but we do buy quite a bit of Sun kit. The faceplate lights up, which is sort of cool. A guy who looks after some of our Starfires has it under his desk, and I went on a pilgrimage to his desk to see it back in mid-December.
Re:How about a low price desktop next... (Score:1)
Re:The worst job in the world is Slowlaris sysadmi (Score:1)
-Don
Re:I wonder.. (Score:2)
Those cpus have problems because the cache is, apparently, not ECC. Sun's 'fix' is to clear the cache every Nns. Not really a fix, but at least the box doesn't fall over.
Looking at the specs for the new X1s, the cache has been reduced to 256KB, and although it isn't stated, the cache is likely on the die.
Re:Only 400mHz?? (Score:1)
Re:I Wonder Who Will Use This (Score:2)
Re:Installing it might be hard (Score:2)
Re:Only 400mHz?? (Score:1)
It's 1U - that makes a pretty huge difference. And it's designed to run forever, like months without heat problems. At 1U (1.5") that's serious work.
And 400MHz in an UntraSparc is something completely different than 400MHz in a Celeron. IPC (instructions per clock cycle) is significantly better.
Re:2 problems (Score:1)
where? (Score:1)
Any reason why not? (Score:1)
I'd like to find a Sparc port that would run on my old Solbourne s3000 Sparc workstation, alas that box is definately non-compatible.
Sure Does! (Score:2)
Re:Only 400mHz?? (Score:1)
Take a Pentium Pro 200 and benchmark it on the exact same software with a PIII-1ghz. Theoretically, there should be a five-fold scaling difference in performance. However, applications that have not had additional optimization code added in for the newer PIII architecture do NOT get a five-fold increase in performance. Expect to see something along the lines of three-fold.
Applications that _have_ been optimized for the newer architecture will blow away the old chips. For example, look at Quake III on a Pentium Pro 200 with a PCI Video card, and then try the same benchmarks with all the same variables with a PIII-1ghz. the difference is more like 20-25fold than it is five-fold.
Either way, it's a lose-lose situation for Intel. If you buy a fast, expensive server, it won't be scalably faster than your old server when using the same software. Also, in another year, when SSE3 and MMX revision 234023 come out on Intel's next chip (or at least, next microcode release), your now-old server won't be optimized for the code in new software and will run it poorly.
With Sun's SPARC architecture, this stuff doesn't happen. Of course, it did from SPARC to UltraSPARC, but that's a HUGE architectural change - that's expected. Just like going from a PIII to an IA64-based chip, when they come out. Bottom line is that you're playing guessing games and software-matching-tag to figure out if an Intel-based server upgrade will really help you, where in the Sun market, your upgrade will be matched equally and as-expected with greater performance.
If you really *like* tweaking and modifying and optimizing software at the instruction-level on your servers, hey, I won't stop you... I know that I've got way too many servers to manage to possibly consider that as a reasonable option in the enterprise.
Don't cross the streams... (Score:2)
------
WWhhaatt ddooeess dduupplleexx mmeeaann??
Re:Rack question (Score:1)
The worst job in the world is Slowlaris sysadmin (Score:1)
If you're really so autointoxicated that you'd consider buying Sun equipment, it would be much more cost effective in the long run to get a PinkBoard [pinkboard.co.uk] instead.
"You will be surprised at what comes out of you."
-Don
doesn't need raid (Score:1)
Re:I Wonder Who Will Use This (Score:5)
Ditto for the 420R/E450. The 420R is essentially the same as the 220R, except that it supports 4 CPUs and 4GB of RAM. The E450 is the same, except that it supports up to 20 internal SCSI disks.
As for the X1, it supports more than just one drive and 128MB of RAM. The base model just comes configured that way. The X1 would make a more-than-adquate web/name/mail server most businesses. Yes, what a suprise that you DON'T need a 800Mhz chip to run these services. Or even multiple chips.
Re:Disk accesses (Score:2)
Re:They have -12 months of inventory (Score:1)
I ordered 2 Ultra 5's Friday (1-12-01) and recived them yesterday. (1-17-01) And they weren't even stock orders. (just extra RAM)
Re:I Wonder Who Will Use This (Score:2)
Many n-tier system architectures use machines that are almost pure CPUs connected to networks. The machine would receive a request from a client application on the tier "above", make it's own requests for data from servers on the tier "below", perform some processing and then send a reply upwards and logging information down. You only really need a disk in these things for convenience sake, if they've been properly configured they won't even need to hit the pagefile during normal operation. You'd have real servers for your data storage, and you would be able to hot swap and/or add entire nodes to the system whenever you felt like it, because as long as they complete whatever they're working on before you disconnect them, they have no state on them at all. Very scalable, very easy to maintain, and quite cheap.
Missed the point... (Score:3)
Disk accesses (Score:2)
OK, for monothreading apps, IDE is okay and can even be fast enough but it relies in some way on the processor's power.
Why not putting some SCSI disc(s) inside, hmmmm ?
BTW, I love the idea of a service processor in this low-cost device: this will save much space in my machine rooms.
--
This might be a stupid question, but... (Score:1)
Is SPARC *that* special?
The cheapest 1RU servers.... (Score:1)
Re:My Bad.... (Score:1)
Either way, thanks for pointing out the Ultralinux website earlier... there is no better SPARC/Linux resource out there.
Re:Cobalt Acquisition (Score:1)
Re:I Wonder Who Will Use This (Score:1)
Good price on hardware, but (Score:1)
Why? why? why? (Score:1)
The average place won't see anywhere near that sort of traffic.
wonder if there is any clustering software for these things, or run linux on it.. you could build a pretty sweet cluster for $40 grand.
lastly.. these are worth the price.. hell, a 1U case alone goes for like $400.. what's up with that??
-b
Re:I Wonder Who Will Use This (Score:1)
I can actually see these very handy for DNS servers, and large arrays of web servers (at this price you can buy 3 of these to take the place of 1 slightly bigger/better machine, and have more points of failure)
Re:Price? (Score:1)
------
WWhhaatt ddooeess dduupplleexx mmeeaann??
But can they deliver? (Score:1)
It seems to me Sun is trying awfully hard to become the next Micro$oft. Their marketing department is a close second to Micro$oft's when it comes to making tall claims and vaporware.
Re:I Wonder Who Will Use This (Score:1)
Re:How about a low price desktop next... (Score:1)
That, and as an AC said below, video/frame buffer could be a drawback for some.
Re:1U Machines (Score:1)
1U Cobalts are nice, because they can fit in any cheap 19" rack that a musician may have lying around. 2U Dell or Compaq servers weigh a ton and really need rear rails (and no standard depth in the industry, it seems) to hold them.
Ack.
------
WWhhaatt ddooeess dduupplleexx mmeeaann??
Re:How about a low price desktop next... (Score:2)
$75 is cheap. There's a catch though...the licence doesn't include upgrades. So, if an exploit or other defect is discovered and fixed, you need to;
If there's a way to get updates that I don't know about, feel free to hit me with a Clue Stick(tm).
The Box is sweet, but... (Score:1)
Re:These are the holy grail of 1U servers !!!! (Score:1)
Re:i dont understand (Score:1)
Re:Ummm, holy shit. (Score:1)
dopp
Re:Cool (Score:1)
Probably not.. :( (Score:1)
Some of the chipsets used have not been implemented
in the kernel code for that specific architecture yet.
It's being worked on by an Admiral group of folks.
Sun would probably install Linux on it for you...
IF
1) They were interested in linux.
2) They completed the port to this hardware
3) They can train their support staff to
handle the sudden increase in tech
support calls.
Not that I mind, since I'm one of those who's
still waiting for 2 other things.....
1) Completed port to the new chipsets
2) 1K to get one of my own.
Re:How about a low price desktop next... (Score:1)
*whack* You are correct that it doesn't include upgrades. However, the Recommended Cluster Patches, which include include security and reliability patches, are free. Check http://sunsolve.sun.com [sun.com] and look for 'patches'.
Re:This might be a stupid question, but... (Score:2)
Another silly Slashdotter didn't read the article (Score:2)
And why, pray tell, would you want to waste space on a video board in something that is meant to be crammed into a single rack with 10 other thin servers like it? This isn't a desktop system -- it's supposed to be something you throw a rack & forget about where it is physically.
From the article: "... it employs standard PC components, including PC memory and IDE disk drives...." I assume that means it takes standard RAM.
Close -- it has a single network card. But, that built-in card is dual ported, each port having 10/100 capability.
--Mid
Re:I Wonder Who Will Use This (Score:2)
Re:How about a low price desktop next... (Score:2)
*OUCH!* Thanks...I think!
Sun should make it easy to find these kind of things. Only a few sites are harder to deal with, and almost all of them high-profile.
[GRIPE] Why hide every patch and upgrade under a layer of menus that use phrases from a marketing handbook, as opposed to...well...an FTP site? What's so hard about that old favorite, plus a simple directory structure?
UK pricing (Score:2)
WTF is that all about then?
I noted that Apple UK's pricing of the Titanium Powerbook is only marginally above the straight conversion, which sounds fair to me. But almost double?
...j
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Only 400mHz?? (Score:2)
Gee only 400 MHz? :-) PCs will eat their lunch! (Score:3)
I'd have some real decisions to make if I hadn't already budgeted for a Titanium PowerBook.
But the next rack unit I buy...
Re:As soon as... (Score:5)
Solaris is a very good operating system, and I have found it more suitable for the databases and programs that I work with. (No, I am not interested in Postgre or mySQL, don't flame please)
Re:I Wonder Who Will Use This (Score:2)
I wonder what these are going to do to the countless leasing companies that are reaming small shops for a good $14-16k (low-end) Ultra2 boxes...
One question... (Score:2)
- A.P.
--
* CmdrTaco is an idiot.
Re:How do you ever re-install Solaris 8 on it? (Score:2)
You have a jumpstart server around to jumpstart it. But of course you shouldn't need this, because the install does *not* require a GUI. If it detects no framebuffer it defaults to the text only install option, throughout.
Re:Ummm, holy shit. (Score:2)
Well it is "FrameBuffer, Audio, SCSI" not included. Not that FrameBuffer has any value for a rackmount server, Audio has almost none, and SCSI, well, that would be nice, but I guess they have to cut the cost some how. NEBS would be nice as well, but again...
The drawback is no PCI slot. So there are a lot of things you can't use it for. Beyond memory and disk space there is basically no expansion at all. No gigabit ethernet. No RAID. None of that. A pity. But there are other Netras.
I hope BSD/OS runs on it :-)
Re:2 problems (Score:2)
I currently do this with a bunch of T1's where you have both of the internal disks on the same controller (and only 2 disks).
I also just used the command line to do the work. Check out Sun's Guide to high availability where they provide the step by step instructions for both DiskSuite (free) and Veritas (overpriced unless you have an array)
Review .. (Score:2)
Re:I Wonder Who Will Use This (Score:2)
Even so, the 450 is still a waste of space. A 420R configured with 2 external D1000 units takes up less verticle space and affords you more hard drive slots than the 450, and can carry the same amount of CPUs and RAM. One might argue that this kind of set up is more redundant in some ways.
E-Bay Auctions (Score:2)
Ummm, holy shit. (Score:5)
Say you're putting together a hosting provider or other such consumer of rackmounted gear. Go to your boss and suggest you either buy:
a, VALinux 1120's for $1400 each.
b, BSDi 1210's for $1300 each.
c, 'Proper' sun boxes for $1000 each.
No brainer, particularly with Sun's excellent reputation.
And before you start flaming away, consider what this does to 1U dell boxes running win2k server... like, two and a half grand? BWaaaahahahahahaaa! Fuck you Bill!
They're going to sell millions of these things. And do not, for one second, underestimate the good this is going to do Unix.
Dave
Re:How about a low price desktop next... (Score:2)
(check here [sun.com] for details)
Your Working Boy,
Re:Only 400mHz?? (Score:2)
Yes, I have. They still fall behind. On the other hand the hardware almost never fails, is a lot simpler to "fix" remotly (tell it to boot off of another drive, or boot of of CD and reload the OS, or just power down and back up). They are also much simpler to get in the same config for more then 3 months in a row.
Even real fixing is frequently simpler. SCA drives are wonderful (and yes, you can get SCA PCs, but once you configure a SCA PC the price tends to go above Suns!)
That is why we use them for servers a lot. A lot lot. A very very lot. Even with the CPU gap.
Re: (Score:2)
As soon as... (Score:2)
Re:2 problems (Score:2)
I don't mean to start a flame war, but several distributions of linux run on sparc, including my favorite, debian. Linux includes software raid that works quite happily over IDE. In fact, I've installed debian on a sparc and used software raid. It worked great. (The only reason that I did it is that I had to put together a demonstration very quickly, and apt is a ton easier than downloading and compiling everything by hand.)
That being said, running any sort of raid on a single IDE bus is a really bad idea, you will absolutely kill your performance because of the limitations of the bus. But it will work.
Comment removed (Score:4)
Sparc Skateboard.. (Score:3)
Why not actually use the X1 as a skateboard deck? put a few little wheels on it and Whamo! Instant Geek/Board culture cross. I could see these things really catching on at lunch hour in the industrial parks. Then you could really start making sparks with that sparc.
Re:It looks like it only holds 2 drives (Score:2)
Sure Doesn't! (Score:5)
Re:1U Machines (Score:3)
Re:"An ANSI console device is needed" (Score:2)
- or -
Linux+Minicom+Rollover cable
- or -
Terminal Server (Computone, Cisco, Lightwave Comm)...
They all work fine with Netras... the T1 models have LOM, which is nice if the boxes are remote, because you can telnet to your terminal server on the correct port for the serial console (Netra serial port A) and type "poweron" to power them up, then get a console Login or OpenBoot.
The T1 105s are good boxes; just slightly lesser than the T1 AC200 (same box with 440 MHz cpu and only up to a gb of RAM). Get them before they are gone; that might be a very good deal. They are not a bad box to run Linux on either...
Sean
Netras are great Linux boxes... (Score:2)
The Netra T1 boxes (at least the 105s, and I assume the 220s) run Linux, have lights-out managment of power via dial-in or terminal server, and come standard with 10kRPM disks, and have dual ethernet, and have plenty of expansion (via the E1 box for 4 extra PCI cards, if you need it).
Overall, the netras might be overpriced, but they are a good choice for folks that have the money (and the people) to use them in the right situation.
My Bad.... (Score:2)
Thanks for the correction. I don't want to mislead people. Guess I shoulda checked the hardware compatibility list for the components, and not just the CPU.
mea culpa.
Re:Ummm, holy shit. (Score:2)
Re:I Wonder Who Will Use This (Score:2)
220/420
17.8 cm H
44.9 cm W
69.6 cm D
250
51.7 cm H
26.2 cm W
73.2 cm D
450
58.1 cm H
44.8 cm W
69.6 cm D
I Wonder Who Will Use This (Score:3)
The question I have is who is going to use a machine with an IDE drive an only 128 megs of RAM in a production environment? Normal users probably won't use it since it's only rack-mountable, and it's pretty low end to be a business server.
Thoughts?
Re:As soon as... (Score:2)
1) You could have a mostly Linux shop, and want the price/performance of a Sun machine without having to learn brand-new stuff
2) You prefer the Linux tools (IPChains et al)
In addition, you should care about license philosophy (no matter which side of the fence you are on). The moral/philosophical choices we make today affect our future, so you should at least decide where you stand on the issue and act accordingly.
1U Machines (Score:2)
We're building a suite of app servers in my (job) and have started looking into HP's new LPr's rumored to come out (dual PIII in 1U). Sun has made 1U machines for a while, but they've been expensive.
And sometimes I wonder if an 8-CPU 4U box may be a better deal over 4 1U boxes.... Still, having a rack stacked full on 1U machenes, some acting as firewalls, some as web servers, some as app servers, some as DB servers, etc... It's kind of sweet.