$200 Net PC to Close Brazil's Digital Divide 298
Alexsander writes: "As announced by Pimenta da Veiga, minister of communications, a Net PC costing R$ 400 (around US$ 200) will be available in 120 days. It targets low-income users, and a 24-month paying plan will be considered. The computer will be a Pentium 500 MHz, with keyboard, mouse, NIC, 56 Kbps modem, 14" display, 64 Mb RAM and no hard disk (16 Mb flash RAM instead). The main-board architecture (developed by UFMG) will be open, allowing any company to make it. It will run Linux (probably Conectiva) with KDE, KOffice and Konqueror." The Brazilian government notice is available, as are pictures of the device. Imagine: a government doing something to help poor people get access to the internet.
Hmmmm... (Score:1)
My only question is this: can it be hacked á la i-Opener? Imagine StarOffice and the Gimp on that thing!
Re:Try socialism. (Score:1)
Imagine... (Score:2)
And not with sneaky proprietary companies that want to monitor your usage and sell information, but instead with that mysterious free "communist" open source operating system, Linux!
Re:$200 can be a lot (Score:1)
Re:Once again, the world misses the point. (Score:2)
Why not? And who's going to pay for it? Americans?
Translation in the educational/medical domain: "So now you will take other people's money away so that less fortunate will have a reasonable life expectancy and even possibly get a decent education
So it's alright to steal to make one's health and education better? Bill Clinton makes more than I do (much of it stolen from you and I, down to the dinnerware and the $750K/month office he wants). You're telling me I can just go in and take stuff out of his office and pawn it since I'd like an MBA? Cool!
We're talking about a divide that might soon become almost as important as the one between people who can read/write, and people who can't.
Where you been for the last four thousand years? You think this is a new thing? We're better off with global literacy then ever before, in spite of people choosing and supporting tyrants and thieves for governments.
In fact that's exactly what 90% of western countries do. Britain and US being two noticeable exceptions
What - steal from their citizens, pocket 70% for "processing fees" and give the other 30% to worthless governments that also pocket 90% and give table scraps to their hostages? No, I'm afraid the US and Britain are both exceptionally well trained at this scam as well.
And where are the Europeans, Japanese and Koreans? Why are they not on the angst trip list?
In general, it's easy to blather droll like this post, until you realize that the pathetic world these people live in is the consequence of their choice in government, believe in mysticism, etc. As long as they keep wishing for happiness while supporting corrupt governments, they'll be poor.
*scoove*
You're free to make any decision you want, but you are not free from its consequence.
Re:Digital Divide is a Stupid Fad (Score:2)
... and for (partly) that reason, I was not advocating communism -- merely pointing out that an economic divide is an unavoidable fact of life in its absence. And (to wrench this back onto topic) governments would do well to make sure that financial poverty does not lead to intellectial poverty. Public libraries have served this purpose in the past (and will continue to do so). Initiatives such as this Brazilian one are a modern extension of that ideal.
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Re:Computers run on ... batterys? (Score:1)
It's in the Internet the role to break all frontiers and transform the common stupid patriot to an inteligent human being, one which is concerned more with the wellfare of the world than of is idea of a country.
But there is one thing that I don't agree, you will not have much success preaching the ways of the new technology to people that don't have enough basic resources, such as food, security, and a place to live.
This where I disagree with this type of goverment measures... They should focus on more basic needs. Failling that will only bring violence from the ones that most deserve atention.
Do you realy think that the street kids from Rio de Janeiro will ever care about this?
Even it there are computers in the schools? Do they attend to school?
And the people in the north east? Will they have any desire to participate?
You must know better than me, my ideia of brazilian reality comes in second hand...
Re:You guys can't even read the article! (Score:1)
The last article I've read about the rural areas from brazil were a little bleake. Most of it gave focus to the land less and their problems. They didn't have much of a literacy rate...
And I also doubt about the literacy rate of the favelas....
You know, most of the time the small percentage makes de diference... Although, I would question your data... making a census on a country as big as yours must be hard.
and by the way, I'me portuguese. not american.
Re:$200 can be a lot (Score:1)
You're comparing apples and oranges. Here's an example...
If you have ten people and 6 of them make $200/month each and 4 of them make $1000/month each, you have an average income of $520/month (of which 60% of the people are making less).
Re:Try socialism. (Score:1)
The one common denominator is that ideologies that draw from socialism emphasize that the state has a responsibility to ensure at least a minimum of quality of life for it's population, and that certain basic needs should be secured to some extent by the state.
What separates them are why, and how.
Fascist argumentation for this is that the state is everything, and a strong state should be the goal for everyone, and to achieve this, the state must ensure that all members of society are productive.
One of the common social-democratic arguments is that "common decency" mandates that one should not let people suffer when society is wealthy enough to cover basic needs without adversely affecting it's other citizens.
The Marxist argument is that socialism is a stage on the way to communism, where control is transferred from the capitalist upper classes to a state apparatus controlled by the working classes, and presupposes a socialist revolution where the workers have taken control.
For an interesting (while certainly biased) presentation of other widely diverging socialist ideologies, read the last chapter of the Communist Manifest (available online [marxists.org]), which is a critique of different socialist ideologies that ranges from reactionary to hopelessly utopian.
Re:The Internet isn't the answer to poverty. (Score:3)
I agree that the Internet will not end poverty. However, I think the Brazilian taxpayers are not wasting the money spent on this particular program.
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Wouldn't it be funny if (Score:1)
Re:This is what we need to start doing here (Score:2)
"The poor will always be with us."
Re:Try socialism. (Score:1)
It's all a matter of balance. You can be an extremist and be total-capitalism (USA) or communism (USSR), or you can try to take the best of both worlds and make something more balanced. As a bad commercial would say, "balance is everything"
Re:Try socialism. (Score:1)
And this is of course different from the problems when Russia (USSR) was communist. I think the problem is that you don't want to admit that capitalism hasn't worked in Russia either.
Re:Computers are not a magic bullet (Score:1)
> class size, not enough money, bad teachers,
> parents who cant afford to care for their kids
> cause the government cut off their welfare....
> how are some computers gonna help??
A significant number of bright students will get hooked by the computers. They will stay after school exploring/experimenting/hacking/learning. Compared to their peers who hung out at the mall or the basketball courts, these students are far less likely to end up flipping burgers, and far more likely to be employed in an IT job.
Ofcourse this is dependant on the teachers actually letting the kids use the computers. I know when I was in elementary school the teachers were so scared that someone might break their Apple ][s that they were kept off-limits to everyone. Completely defeated the purpose of them.
Re:But a PC is only the start of internet literacy (Score:1)
Re:You guys can't even read the article! (Score:1)
This is an escape for most of us, but to them there is little escape from their real problems. The crimes won't go away, the jobs will not appear in the internet, and food will not come from computer...
Some years ago I've seen a soap from Globo, where a politic gave free house appliances to the poorest. Now it should be a great idea, but he forgot to give them electricity first...
It's obvious a joke, but perhaps your ministry didn't see that episode
Or not. (Score:2)
The way to help the poor is not to raise taxes from the producers of wealth, and slow the entire economy. If a government wants to help its people, the best thing it can do is nothing at all.
But a PC is only the start of internet literacy (Score:5)
The Brazilian government needs to start a massive program of internet cultural literacy for it's citizens before they step onto the info super-highway, in order that they understand the existing culture, and don't destory the existing culture. This program will consist of:
Then, and only then, will Brazilians be able to understand the internet.
Only then
Re:Sure, but... (Score:2)
Computers for the homeless (Score:2)
--
Keep attacking good things as "communist"
No HDD, hmm... (Score:2)
No, but they can steal it (Score:2)
Seriously, getting more PCs [of any kind] out there is bound to be good. If there is one thing poor countries can do these days to get long-term foreign money, it's to develop their brains. Cutting down a forest is a one-time windfall, not a real source of ongoing finance.
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Re:Once again, the world misses the point. (Score:3)
You do have a point and this is quite likely. At the same time
Who said that there will be any loss. An IDT winchip or K6-2+ based board with the worst type "fry your brain" 14in CRT with 16M flash, 64M memory and a linmodem will cost exactly there. Bulk prices of course. And even if not picked up by the masses it will still make a good terminal for schools if the linmodem is replaced by LAN.
Evolution of public school system (Score:2)
This is, of course, very true. But the point of social programs like this is to make sure that the people who are willing to put in the effort -- get a chance to try. Some obstacles are not going to change (your family, genetics, etc). But if we want to encourage a meritocracy in which everyone has the opportunity to rise to the top, we have an obligation to eliminate as many obstacles as we can.
Having a computer(or easy access to one) is a prerequisite to a modern education. It's a natural consequence that the government will support a wide distribution of cheap computers.
It's the same reason that we now have public education. Schooling (typically with a tutor) was a luxury that rich people took advantage of. As it became clear that schooling was becoming a prerequisite to "the good life", we instituted a system that allowed everyone access to that schooling, at enormous cost. We all know that some take advantage of it and some don't, but few of us question it's merit.
I'm not saying that this program is the right way to go about it -- just that the concept is one that I agree with.
Re:Something is missing.... (Score:2)
Yes they can (Score:3)
Another interesting example is the Bangladeshi woman who used microcredit [salonmag.com] to buy a cell phone, which she rents out to her neighbors. Not a big business by our standards, but one that has a drastic effect on her and her customers.
The importance of both examples is that they show impoverished, even illiterate people gaining access to information. For people like this, information is power, money, and safety. A weather report pulled off a US Navy web site can mean life or death for a fisherman. Being able to talk to a guest-worker family member means their remittances don't get ripped off by go-betweens. There are no end of consequences.
The best thing about these programs is the way they promote mutual aid and collective responsibility. Microloans are administered by peer groups that make sure the recipient has realistic goals and plans. Groups that chip in to buy a computer are going to be personally involved in how it is used -- no dusty impulse purchase this!
__________________
Re: Another Xtian rant (Score:2)
"President Bush's plan for faith-based groups helping their local communities?"
Not Bush's plan, Ralph Reed's [cc.org], announced while Bush was on the campaign trail, in concert with Wisconsin's Tommy Thompson (see next).
Careful Zaphod, your slip is showing.
BTW, I'm not saying 'faith-based' is a bad idea: just make it open to all faiths (including - *shudder* - Scientologists, Wiccans, Satanists, etc.), and use the same rules that you use for non-faith-based public charities (same with school vouchers). Then let's see how many of these 'churches' line up for the free handout from Uncle Sugar.
It's not for most of the Brazilian population (Score:2)
C'mon, most of the brazilian citizens earn about US$75 a month. Now imagine you have 3 kids to raise, you barely would buy enough food for your children, how the hell would you buy a computer? And even worse, how would you pay the phone bills?
Let's not dream about poor brazilian people with computers. THey don't care about it, they care about their own health
-----------------------------------------------
You think Bill Gates is evil?
Re:This is what we need to start doing here (Score:3)
2) 98% of American households own a color TV. 91% own a car. 84% have a VCR. 74% have cable TV. 66% own two color TVs. 44% own a computer.
3) PeoplePC sells a brand-name computer, on-site service, unlimited Internet access and a home page for $24.95 per-month over three years. If you can afford cable TV, you can afford a computer.
4) But if you can't afford a computer, you can browse the Net at most libraries, or pay-per-use at Kinkos.
I know a Salvadoran familiy in Washington, DC, that makes most of its money from making plantain empanadas for a local pupusaria. They have purchased a 486 computer for their daughter, and she uses AOL. They also have a large TV with surround-sound speakers. Probably the worst thing about their lives is the crime around where they live, but they prefer to be living around other Salvadorans, and they can't afford to move into a suburban McMansion yet.
The "Digital Divide" is much more about individual priorities than economics in the US.
Re:The Internet isn't the answer to poverty. (Score:3)
If a farmer has information about the weather, he can better plan his planting and harvesting. A factory worker can search for a better job. A merchant can search for the best wholesaler for the wares he sells. A craftsman can find out how much the things he creates are actually worth, and price them accordingly, rather than trust the middleman who only has his own bottom line in mind.
If you're going to give the poverty stricken anything, give them opportunity. That's what this cheap internet terminal can give. Viewing a computer as a luxury relegates the computer to the level of television, a one way medium. But the real power of the internet is that even though the bandwidth is largely one way (to the user) there is still a channel out (to the world). You can just spectate, but you have the opportunity to participate, and it is up to the individual to choose.
Re:Or not. (Score:2)
Re:Really poor people can't buy this (Score:2)
Right - at least that's my non-Portuguese-speaking understanding of "...construído para levar a internet de graça a escolas, postos de saúde, microempresas e pequenas comunidades."
My first thought was the same as wceschim's. There is no way the people at the bottom of the Brazilian society, in favelas or in the jungle, are going to benefit from this program. I suspect Michael suffers from the "Everything in America is worse than everything anyplace else!" mentality (the lesser known liberal variant of the "Everything in America is better than everything anyplace else!" mentality) and thinks the Brazilian poor are comparable to or better off than the poorest Americans.
Re:Once again, the world misses the point. (Score:2)
I looove some Americans! Honest! They look all sooo cute when they are ignorant.
The previously truly democraticaly elected president in Mexico was Francisco I. Madero in 1910, unfortunately for him (and for Mexico) the US did not like him, so they supported a traitor that killed the President and the Vicepresident. Mexico had to endure 80 years of mainly corrupt goverments as a consequence.
Other "friends" of the US:
-Anastasio Somoza.
-The Duvalier's in Haiti.
-Mobutu Sese Seko in today's DR of Congo.
-Sadamm Hussein in Irak.
-The former apartheid regime in South Africa.
So belive me, it is not always that countries elect or tolerate corrupt leaders, there are forces that have nothing to do with what the people deserve, in the case of Brazil they had military dictatorships for many years.
My response? (Score:2)
Amber Yuan 2k A.D
The Digital Divide (Score:3)
The digital divide isn't about 'computers are a luxury' and 'I have Internet but I can't afford food'. The digital divide is a growing contributing factor to social exclusion. Social exclusion is about entire communities of individuals who do not have the choices in life (education, jobs and so on) that are available to wealthier communities.
Computer literacy has been growing in importance for quite a while and the Internet appears to have accelerated the process by simply making more people computer literate. If you have no access to computers then you are being denied more than just the opportunity to natter about Star Wars on Slashdot - you are being denied basic skills training.
The effects are currently minimal but are guaranteed to grow. For many many children, computer literacy could be the differentiating factor that (a) gives them the incentive to keep going to school and (b) gets them a job when they leave.
Brazil is by no means far behind the technological curve. A glut of free Internet providers appeared in Rio towards the end of 1999, only months behind the UK. The problem, as people have mentioned, is that it is still out of the financial reach of the majority.
There is a heavy emphasis on extra-curricular education in Brazil - generally paid courses outside school hours. As in America, those in Brazil most aggressively tackling the 'Digital Divide' are the NGOs, who give courses for free. The equipment generally comes entirely from donations and the staff tend to be volunteers. CCDIA [ccdia.org] is the one I work with, but there are many more. This government scheme could give critical mass to the projects which are offering free courses to those who can't afford to pay.
I would encourage every Slashdot reader in every country to find a local project where they can help - the first-world has social problems too!
Why this really is important (Score:2)
1. While just having internet access won't make poor people less poor, it will at least let them communicate with others in the same boat, and become aware of ways to get out of it. If their lot in life doesn't improve, it's also one avenue for political organization. While they could cut off free net access in the event that happened, it's many rungs up the ladder from the typical impoverished country which would take steps to keep its poor people isolated.
2. This is only part of the story. In a New York Times article [nytimes.com] I read earlier this week, there was a description of how Brazil is encouraging its researchers to violate American drug company patents and copy AIDS drugs for free treatment of the poor, the net effect being that they're controlling AIDS down there as well as we are here. Now they're distributing cheap computers with no Microsoft tax.
Why is this important? Because for apparently the first time, a less privileged country has realized that there's no need to pay rich countries for stuff that can be copied or has a freely available substitute. You can charge whatever you want for oil and take it away if a country won't pay up, but you can't take away their ability to copy your 'intellectual property'.
If they can do this and survive economically, it will change everything.
Re:The Internet isn't the answer to poverty. (Score:2)
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"You owe me a case of beer. Sucka'."
Re:i don't think "michael" gets it (Score:2)
"Imagine a GOVERNMENT doing something..." he wasn't talking about non-profit orgs. He's talking about the GOVERNEMNT of Brazil.
-Andy
Really poor people can't buy this (Score:5)
Although it is commendable, I don't think this new computer will help that much.
I'm Brazilian and as such I can tell you: most of Brazil's population will not be able to buy this computer. They wouldn't have the $200, or the telephone line, or the money to pay the phone bill. Pimenta da Veiga is actually helping Brazil's lower middle class.
What they should do is start a real and serious project to connect all schools to the Internet. Public schools in Brazil don't even have computers, let alone computers connected to the Internet.
Open Source and the brazilian economy (Score:2)
Finding an article at Slashdot over brazilian efforts to make computing and information systems available to the poor is very nice, but isn't surprising or amazing. No at all.
I work for an Open Source development company in Brazil, Async Open Source [async.com.br] and we are making good money providing low cost open source software, such as Stoq [stoq.com.br] to brazilian companies and institutions.
The message I want to make through is: open source and poor countries are a special combination. We have an incredible number of companies running ilegal copies of Windows, SQL server and all the proprietary software they might need. The technological gap of the solutions provided along with those platforms, when you look at the latest applications available to the rich country nations is huge. It all together make Open Source a excelent way of getting rid of licensing problems as well as a shortcut to lessen that gap.
Every day, more and more companies are realizing that Open Source might be a good option, and they are spending money to help companies like Async to develop and deploy software they need.
Goverments part has been very important. This notice over almost cheap hardware is just one among many decisions that have been made in the last 2 years. There is a law submitted to the national congress which says that public institutions must try to adopt free software (like they say here) instead of proprietary solutions. There is also banks and data processing companies sucha as Banrisul [banrisul.com.br] and Procergs [procergs.com.br] which are making heavy use of Open Source.
The most famous success case is Conectiva [conectiva.com.br] a brazilian Linux distribution which have grown from a small Red Hat portuguese distro version to one of the biggest Linux players in Latin America.
People from other coutries, and specially those involved in Open Source should stop looking at Brazil as a forest populated with poor monkeys and start thinking about coming to work and make profit here. The opensource movement must see that Brazil might be a valuable adition to its cause.
This is what we need to start doing here (Score:2)
Does anyone here rememeber the days when America optimistically looked towards the future, confident that we would be able to rise to any challenges and overcome them? No, probably not, because those days are pretty much ancient history now, and the future has become something to be either feared or read about in today's horoscopes.
And at this point in time where computers and the internet are starting to change everything what are we as a nation doing about this? Nothing. Oh sure, we've got the largest percentage of people online in the world (for now) but these are all the people who can easily afford to be online, and who have the education to use a computer. There's nobody working to help out the kids in inner city slums, in the projects and ghettos of modern America. And they're the ones who really need an escape route from the bleakness they live in.
But that's alright for us, as long as we get our shiny new toys everything is alright. I was reading the poll and it seems as though some people have networks in their houses with a dozen computers! How can there be any conceivable need for this many computers in one household? It's all just technolust, and these people would be doing a valuable service to society by donating one of their machines to charities that, despite being chronically underfunded, do try and help the poor get online.
With the current shambolic state of education in many places and the huge lack of opportunities for many people, every little bit we can do helps. Otherwise we'll end up losing out to countries which have social programs to try and help the poor, rather than ignoring them as an inevitable consequence of a small part of the population having vast resources.
Cost of access? (Score:2)
At $200 for the computer and say $10 per month for Internet access, the computer is still too expensive for "the poor" families.
Heck, they probably don't even have a telephone to connect the PC. (Either because of cost, or lack of infrastructure.)
Local small-businesses and public-service organizations will benefit, though. Perhaps these machines will make it possible to put together public-access Internet kiosks at the libraries and schools.
I just hope people don't buy these only to find a way to "iOpener-ize" the machine and sell them on eBay...
Re:This is what we need to start doing here (Score:2)
Actually it's infinitely easier than finding the highest prime number ... that problem is known to be impossible ;)
But would it work in the U.S.? (Score:2)
1) Is the Internet service itself provided by the government?
2) Are they providing the communications lines to the poor for free as well?
If the answer to (1) is yes, one wonders what constraints the government might put on the ability to visit sites that the powers deem "inappropriate". If the answer to (2) is no, then the government is providing door stops.
(If these questions were answered in the article, I apologize in advance, since I don't read Portugese.)
I have a vision of some sort of similar program in the U.S. First, there would be the scandal over the bribes paid by whoever got the contract to supply the systems. Then, there would be the conservatives up in arms over the government providing a service that allows people to go to (gasp!) PORN sites (alternatively, the liberals would be fuming over the government censorship due to the presence of cyber-nanny software).
Besides, given the state of government computing systems, the systems provided would be 80286's running 1200 Kbs modems.
Re:The Internet isn't the answer to poverty. (Score:2)
I'd rather see them spend that money giving out computers than teaching them how to chop down the rainforest for an unsustainable farm, or to raise more cattle for McD's.
Re:No HDD, hmm... (Score:2)
a) email
b) writing documents
c) browsing
That's what most people use their computer for.
Neither of which require hard-drive storage space.
Re:This is what we need to start doing here (Score:2)
A lot of geeks have a network of cheap ass computers in their house because the best way to learn LAN administration is to just do it and learn each part as you go along.
"Oh twap!"
Ops! Wait! (Score:3)
$200 can be a lot (Score:5)
So while it is encouraging to finally see a country try to get it's nation online (although, IIRC, wasn't there a country with a traveling "Internet boat" and "Internet vans" prior to this?), you really have to realize that w/o the 24-mo paying plan, this is still nothing more than excess legislation.
Hmmm... low cost PC... (Score:2)
I wonder if there's any chance of them selling some of those up in the States? It seems to me that if they sold some up here (at a small profit), it could do them well.
I wouldn't mind getting my hands on some of these; they seem like an ideal thing to use to make a school Linux computer lab... A dozen or two of these and a server running NFS for storage would be much more cost efficient than, say, Win/Dells, and they have much more processing power than recycled Pentium 100 systems.
It seems to me that we could help them and they could help us, all at the same time, and I would so love to infiltrate some high schools with real programming classes (even if you only teach PHP/MySQL/Apache, it would be much more useful than what they currently teach, and I'm sure you could get Java or C/C++/Cb in there).
-- "Duh! Headline of the Year" nominee, from News.Com: --
Trojan horse targets AOL subscribers
Members of the Internet service are being warned to keep watch for a
password-stealing virus circulating in the form of an e-mail attachment.
February 1, 2001, 8:40 a.m. PT
Re:Alternate history (Score:2)
Not necessarily either, I'm thinking. I do think people "raised" on linux w/ KDE will be partial to it over, say, MS-Windows, simply because they're accustomed to it. But I don't think this implies that they'll get into the whole open source movement.
For one thing, it might never be explained to them. If it's only stated that "here's your computer, here's how you work it," there's really no chance of getting into the movement, is there? When I see it really becoming an issue is when someone gets really good at writing shell scripts to customize his/her environment, gets interested in programming, and wants to go to the US to study. Then someone will have to break the news that to be taken seriously in the US computer industry, you have to know Windows2000, and I'm sorry you can't use that because MS says it costs even more than your computer!
To care about Open Source as a phenomenon, I think people must be aware of the alternatives.
Re:No HDD, hmm... (Score:2)
Sure, every couple years a HD will possibly crash. On a stock PC like this one, it should be easy enough to swap out. Meanwhile, look at the advantages of a hard disk even for those who just use e-mail and a word processor:
You can save all your e-mails with a HD, but not with a 16MB ROM.
You can save all your documents for review, reprinting, and updating with a HD, but not with a 16MB ROM.
You can save informative web pages and other documents with a HD, but not with a 16MB ROM.
Even if this thing has a floppy drive, you know very well that floppies are terrible for long-term storage. They spoil very easily and relatively quickly. They may make a reasonable backup medium o save an e-mail directory or small saved files to on a cheap PC like the one envisioned, in case a HD fails, but it's not reasonable to expct such things to live long on floppies alone.
So, I do take issue with your statement that email, writing, and web browsing don't require a HD. If you want to save any of your work and found documents, without the easy decay of floppies, then they do require a HD and occasional backing up.
Once again, the world misses the point. (Score:5)
Does anyone else see the irony in producing computers that people can get for 200 dollars so that they can close the "digital gap"? I mean, come on, if they can't afford a 500$ computer and a telephone line, they are probably poor enough that they live in substandard housing and/or recieve poor medical attention and/or have crappy schools and/or live on a poor diet and/or etc. etc.
a list of things a thousand times long and each infinitely more powerful than being able to watch pr0n online. Are we to believe that these people will get their 200$ computers that will only allow them access to the web and email and this will solve the rest of their problems? And don't forget, we are talking about Brazil, for the love of pete, they have much more important issues that internet access.
I think some brazilian politian has a buddy who stands to make a crapload off of this.
The other point is, who is paying for this. If the government is sucking up the "loss" in the sales, where is that money coming from, taxxed people? So now you will take other people's money away so that less fortunate won't fall behind on the latest issue of "the Onion" and can keep up with slashdot? WTF?
If an american politician suggested we take money from the rich to buy Power Ranger toys for the poor, or rather, make them available cheaper to the poor, don't you think it would be stopped?
This is sheer stupidity. Folks who are so scared of being thought of as back-woods or less than first world because they aren't all trapped by AOL yet and aren't berated with banner ads for $hit they will never be able to afford that they'll sink valuable resources into a worthless effort such as this. It's a damn shame.
Re:Not Governments Job (Score:2)
Since the day someone decided that the job of government is to help the people of the country rather than just finding excuses to start wars.
I would gladly never take a government funded college loan if it meant that welfare would be abolished.
Well then, fuck you. That's what you're saying to the rest of the people in whatever country you live in - "fuck the lot of you-I'm alright". Of course while you're saying this you aren't using any government supplied roads and obviously you've posted this message on some strange network which doen't owe its existance to Govt. sponsored projects and your house is powered by electricity which does not come from a station built with the aid of Govt development grants (nor, for that matter, do you live near any of the big Govt.-paid-for hydro-electric dams).
No man is an island. If you want to live as if you are then go and live on an island and stop being a dead weight on the rest of us.
TWW
Alternate history (Score:2)
Re:Once again, the world misses the point. (Score:2)
Do you know what the e-rate is?
Amber Yuan 2k A.D
... And I hope michael is first in line ... (Score:2)
To berate the government when they use this to control what "the people" see on the Internet
Imagine! The first government in the history of the world to do something for purely altruistic reasons!
By the way, if you buy that, I've got this bridge...
I don't trust the Brazilian government (or, any government) to run this kind of program. I predict that within a year or so, assuming this program makes significant in-roads, the cheap, non-free-as-in-speech Internet computer will be serving up some kind of prole-feed to the users. Do you think that anti-governement propoganda will make it's way down that subsidized phone line to the end user? Will the news ticker display headlines such as "Brazilian President caught in flagrante delicto with a mule"?
More likely, it will be a conduit for government propoganda and a shield for the government to hide behind.
You want to help Brazilian citizens get Internet access? Go down to Brazil, open a business and hire people. Teach them to operate a computer, suggest a good brand (local, preferably), help them set it up and give them technical support if they need it.
That's helping somebody -- saying "wow, that Brazilian government is so cool, giving away computers" is NOT helping. It's a coward's way out.
Re:No HDD, hmm... (Score:2)
minor nit (Score:2)
-Paul Komarek
Re:Once again, the world misses the point. (Score:2)
um, what?
So it's alright to steal to make one's health and education better? Bill Clinton makes more than I do (much of it stolen from you and I, down to the dinnerware and the $750K/month office he wants). You're telling me I can just go in and take stuff out of his office and pawn it since I'd like an MBA? Cool!
Are you really that stupid?
Amber Yuan 2k A.D
Re:No HDD, hmm... (Score:2)
And I'd really like to find some good 2.1's at the same price per byte as the 20 Gb I just got.
Re:Sure, but... (Score:2)
I agree that it isn't all that good if you can't pay for college. In Canada, I didn't have enough money, so I took out student loans.
While post secondary education might not be possible in the U.S., there is still nothing to prevent a person from scrounging the components of a P.C. They're quite cheap these days. When I was in highschool I built a 286 system for under $200 (CDN). The comperable power today would be a low end Pentium... a much more useful system. I still use a 486 for Linux and as a firewall at home.
If you're so financially strapped that as a student your guardians rely on your part time income to pay for your home.... that's really terrible. I have no idea what to do for those kids.
On that note, for a while there was a great group in Toronto called CLUE, the Centre for Linux Excellence. They would take donations of old hardware from companies (486's) and build systems from it. They would then drop a standard build of Debian onto the machines, teach kids how to use them, then give them to the kids... recommended donation of $25. They eventually buckled under... I think they had problems with rent.
http://centre.linux.ca/ [linux.ca]
IMHO widespread work like that would be far more helpful than the schools.
There is also a "Free University" movement in Toronto.
http://www.utoronto.ca/acc/freeu/ [utoronto.ca]
.gov server feels /. effect (Score:2)
Brazil is not France (Score:2)
If this is supposed to imply that all Brazilian kids get a similar eduaction it is very ignorant. Brazil is one of the most unequal societies in the world. The favela kids don't have any schools or health care at all, and are hunted for sport by the police.
These cheap computers may help the middle class get on the web. But it's very likely that primarily it will help some fat cat involved in it make millions of govenrment money. Did I mention that Brazil is one of the most corrupt countries in the world as well?
It's a great place to visit, though. But stay out of the favelas!!
Re:No HDD, hmm... (Score:2)
hmm... , indeed.
Deregulation and cluelessness (Score:2)
Who do you mean "we", Anonymous Coward? In 1989 I worked for Embratel, a Brazilian Federal Government owned company that operated the state monopoly (as regulated by the Brazilian Constitution) for long-distance telephone communications in our country. Today I work for Embratel, an MCI/WorldCom owned company (NYSE symbol: EMT) which is one of the several different companies providing long distance telephone communications in Brazil (as regulated by market laws, which are now acknowledged by the Brazilian Constitution).
the world is now saved (Score:2)
we paid for a phone line
we paid for electricity
we bought this computer with over a month's salary
we paid for ISP
we wasted time looking for pr0n
now we have no food, medicine, education, clothes, heating/cooling, etc. etc. etc.
BUT WE ARE ON-LINE NOW.
do they seriously think that making a poor hovel internet capable fixes the greater problem?
you can put cinnoman on a horse apple and I still won't be eating it.
Re:No HDD, hmm... (Score:2)
Almost all these things can be done easily over the network without a hard drive. This is for people who have never owned a computer, so they won't be doing very intensive things, like saving a 4Meg document. I also doubt that these things come with printers, nor will the people who buy them be able to afford one, especially considering the ink. If you look at these things as glorified, non-proprietary Web-TVs, then the decisions make a lot more sense. My grandmother has a Web-TV, and she doesn't miss local storage at all.
Also, I've owned 4 hard drives in my life, 2 of which died in less than 6 months.
Who's literate? Certainly not you! (Score:2)
First, try to learn the difference between "it's == it is" and the possessive pronoun "its".
Oops, there goeth my karma... :( (Score:2)
Re:Once again, the world misses the point. (Score:2)
machines provided so they can surf web sites that are "allowed" by their government (obviously they won't be seeing news about how the rest of the world is doing, they might leave then). So they are getting glorified TV sets with access to 4 billion channels, mostly of crap, with plenty of commercials, and very little useable content, most of it not written in portugese... and most of them don't speak english...
I fail to see how they will be developing skills to pull themselves out of the gutter by having a tv in the house at the cost of over a month's salary.
If they were instead being provided with courses in computer science at a cost of 200 dollars and computers were installed at libraries or other public places (yes I know they have few libraries - not the point) so that anyone could access them and it wasn't a terminal so they could practice some of what they had learned, then MAYBE they'd have the chance to try to pull themselves up
Wouldn't schools be able to buy it? (Score:3)
In that case, this project could be a success in that respect.
YOU missed the point (Score:2)
I'm a Brazilian, which issues are those? (BTW, who is the "pete" who you love so much?)
The other point is, who is paying for this. If the government is sucking up the "loss" in the sales,
It's NOT subsidized, other than not having "intellectual property" on the design. It was designed by UFMG, the Federal University of Minas Gerais, and the design may be freely used by anyone. Ever heard of Free Software? This is Free Hardware. The chips, power supply, circuit boards, manufacturer's profit, taxes, etc, all add up to about $200. This is not a subsidy. It's those who pay more for "patented" designs who are suckers...
Exercise of contortion and value (Score:2)
Another item of interest is that Brazil is taking this very seriously. The architecture has been tested, they are talking of introducing a new telephone dialling code 0100 exclusiely to keep calls from these machines free for the locals, and further, it ios proposed that each school and publuc building get a machine.
This is a very progressive action by a government. It is not unusual though, as similar comments have been heard from many third world countries. Brazil has stated it as follows (relying on Babelfish for the translation...) "A personal computer, without mobile parts, that function with opened software, of public domain, constructed to take the Internet of favour the schools, ranks of health, microcompanies and small communities... with cost zero for the final user."
I read recently that the WindowsME license is more expensive than the average monthy salary in Nigeria. This is where GPL and public domain really contribute to world prosperity.
Here is a link [reach4algeria.com] of interest Algeria has less than 6% telephone density (about one phone per 20 people), and an average ISP (there are only three) costs about 25% of the average person's income.
Bringing the world a little closer to people like this is a calling worthy of Linux. Built by the people for the people.
Three cheers
Didn't you read the article? (Score:2)
It IS intended for schools. The lower middle class will be able to buy it for $200, in 24 monthly payments, but the primary target is public shools and libraries.
Re:This is what we need to start doing here (Score:2)
If the minimum wage in your country is about $80, as it is in Brazil, you work 100% more, you make $160. Is this enough? On the other hand, get a computer literacy, get some technological education, and you may start making $800. Much better, don't you think?
Re:Really poor people can't buy this (Score:3)
No matter which way you look at it, it is a step in the right direction.
Re:Sure, but... (Score:2)
In my case, they're all different generations of technology. Most of them wouldn't even be usable if it weren't for a skilled administrator hacking and patching them together.
IMHO, schools and the like would be better off with volunteers offering time to help set up and maintain these systems. And of course super cheap MS licenses (high-school educated people can't get jobs with KOffice alone)
The geeks can slam MS, go dumpster diving, and build 12 computer LANs running an assortment of OSes. There's no need to spoonfeed leading edge technical skills to those without initiative nor inspiration.
And what is wrong with writing, reading and mathematics? What can be taught on modern machines which can't be taught on ancient ones? Programming, keyboarding? or do kids need industry skills... isn't that what college is for?
Re:No HDD, hmm... (Score:2)
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Re:This is what we need to start doing here (Score:4)
This (and the main slashdot story) seems to assume that the main obstacle to deliverance from low income is simply access to a computer. This is silly, perfectly adequate computers for becoming extremely employable can be already had for just about free (think 486-66 with 16MB ram, 500MB drive, and 14" tube) here in the U.S. Notice we still have poor people.
It has not been my experience that this is the obstacle. Rather, drug abuse, alcohol addiction, chronic bad decision making, illness, immaturity, family of origins, and the like set up high obstacles to overcome. Some people don't, won't, or can't put in the time, blood, sweat and tears to overcome the issues they face.
Design a government program to solve these problems and you will overcome poverty. I suspect the solution to this problem is slightly harder then finding the highest prime number, and slightly easier then the grand unification theory. Not to say we should not try, but don't hold your breath and don't expect a simple solution. And good luck.
In the meantime, the most effective change agent I have seen (other then a person deciding for themselves to do what they have to do come hell or high water) is in the context of committed and genuine relationship between individuals, not by large government programs. I don't contribute to charities that have more then 15% overhead... I wish I could direct the fortune I am paying in taxes that are supposed "help people" to channels that have a less abysmal success rate and a more reasonable overhead.
IMHO of course
Bill
Eat complain! (Score:5)
Digital Divide is a Stupid Fad (Score:2)
If they don't have money for a PC in the first place, they would just sell the PC and pay for other essentials.
The digital divide is just another symptom of the economic gap. You can't fix it by throwing around PCs. It's a fashionable idea for clueless idealists, though.
And let's face it - "digital divide" has a nice sound to it. So it'll stick around for a few years.
w/m
It's universal (Score:3)
On a differnt note, there once was a planet that tried to seperate their bright and creative people from their hair dressers, telephone sanitation people and types like that ....
Re:Digital Divide is a Stupid Fad (Score:2)
Plus, they seem only marginally effective at elimnating the gap... in most cases they just move it from an industrial elite to a government elite.
Bill
Re:But a PC is only the start of internet literacy (Score:2)
This is a hoax (Score:2)
Come on! Just look at some of the crazy terms the submitter made up:
Pimenta da Veiga
Conectiva
KOffice
Brazillian Government
I mean,seriously, if you're gonna submit this bullshit at least make it sound somewhat believable.
Quebec Government is doing that kind of thing too. (Score:2)
Since one fiscal year, here, in Quebec, everyone that gets the government tax funding for childrens has the right to claim :
I do think it's about time governments start thinking helping someone else that big corporations.
Of course, I'm a hard-code Kommunizt zealot.
Re:Really poor people can't buy this (Score:2)
Following your line of thought, really poor people can't buy anything.
But, considering that most part of the Brazilian population fit in the lower class *and* in the lower middle-class, it is still a pretty valid approach.
If you have been following the news recently, much is being said about how the drop in phone line prices (which you can buy for about US$ 40 now, when they used to be above the US$ 600 line before) brought phone for very poor towns. Why can't the same thinking be applied to a computer?
About connecting public schools, the project can (and probably will) help this; as has been pointed out, the schools will be able to buy these more affordable PC's. Not to talk about the many schools in south Brazil that are already investing in using Linux as an attempt to bring computers at a somewhat lower cost.
--
Marcelo Vanzin
What is this going to prove (Score:3)
Giving people handouts don't pull people out of poverity. That's been proven many times during the past few decades. What does work? Local communities pulling together and helping local people who need the help. The Federal government shoving free computers everywhere doesn't help.
So instead of whining and complaining that "rich" people need to pay higher taxes to help "poor" people, go out and use your technological backgrounds and go volunteer somewhere.
I would like to know something. For all you people who say the Federal government should raise taxes and all that, what do you think of President Bush's plan for faith-based groups helping their local communities? Are you saying "Great, they are finalky doing something that may help?" Or are you saying, "Separation of Church and State!!! This is a horrible ideal!!! The religous right are trying to impose their values on us!!!!" The question (IMO) is to tell the difference between people who really want to help verses the people who are socialists and just talking the political talk (I'm not saying Socialism is evil - although I personally don't agree with it).
Re:Digital Divide is a Stupid Fad (Score:2)
"Nobody" isn't many people... In fact I know a couple of people who own a computer and no TV.
Regardless of that, you're correct that this is the status quo, but remember not so long ago a telephone was a luxury (even in my youth, the late 1970s, we shared a line with our neighbours) -- now a telephone can be considered a basic need.
If a government manages to get near 100% internet coverage, imagine the savings it could make in terms of communicating with the proles? In the 1980s the French government did something similar -- they issued *every* household with a "Minitel", basically a 12" terminal with a built in modem, for free. Minitel provided character mode equivalents to much of the stuff you now find on the net -- home shopping, chat, news, even porn -- as well as local and national government stuff, yellow pages, etc. (imagine the cost of sending out those thousands of thick phone books every year).
An economic gap will exist for as long as people resist communism. It would be nice that the cash have-nots aren't also information have-nots.
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The Internet isn't the answer to poverty. (Score:3)
There have been a few "anti Digital Divide" posts in this discussion already, but most of them revolve around the "computer is a luxury" issue, and that you shouldn't go around buying them for people for that reason. I don't buy into that logic exactly, but it's not far off the mark.
The real reason that Internet access can't be considered a panacea for poverty is because, regardless of what the New Economy blowhards tell you, the average Joe can't use a computer to generate wealth. You need to be able to use it to create something that people are willing to shell out bucks for - a video game, or spreadsheet programs, or at the very least, your own services (presumably using a program written by someone else).
The real economic impact of the Internet is that it has allowed businesses to leverage resources they already had in different ways. Unfortunately, the truly poor in Brazil don't have any resources. This is what makes folks who get breathless about E-Bay ending poverty so funny. You can't make any money at all off E-Bay, unless you have something to sell. Otherwise, you might as well be pr0n trolling.
There's a very real chance that small businesses in Brazil will be able to do something useful with this, assuming someone is smart enough to capitalize on their newfound net access, and can effectively target them. If the government is smart in how they distribute them, they may even be able to steer their citizens towards educational resources for their kids. But to the average guy squatting in a shanty town not far outside Rio, Internet access means (with apologizes to Buffy the Vampire Slayer) "pictures of pretty things I can't have."
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"You owe me a case of beer. Sucka'."
relax, here is some optimism! (Score:2)
Will everyone really need a PC? PCs are mostly useful for clerical and technical work and entertainment. A large percentage of people in the US who don't have a PC, don't want one either. Sometimes, as I sit here all day staring at this box I wonder if they have a point.
In the mean time, I do what I can. I DO give extra equipment to friends who ask for it AND can use it. I have a hard enough time helping my wife, brother, mother, sister and brother in law. Talk about a nightmare heterogenious network to adminster, sheesh. I did point out to an old proffesor of mine that most Linux distros come with a working FORTRAN compiler as his department has none. I am a member of the local LUG, and do work to help those who show some ability and desire to help themselves. Dumping old computers on people who don't have the time to administer them is useless, even harmful. Small things can help do help, but charity begins in the home.
You would be amazed at what people do with opertunity. My gradfater took the time to teach one of his dirt poor Mississippi patients to read and write. That man whent on to become very rich selling hardwood to automobile companies, and his company provided many people with good jobs. Oh yeah, my grandfather got through school on scholarships.
This PC initiative will create some more opertunities for Brazilians. Every piece of procuctivity added to a society makes that society that much richer. People who get these machines will train themselves on how to use it, sparing many company hours of time. Because these boxes will run Linux, their understaning and ability to manipulate will be much better. Everyone will benifit as they fashion new tools for themselves that they will share. The extra time and wealth these machines create will make other things possible, like teaching someone to read and write. No one is going to loose out.
Destruction is singular. Production is multiplicative. I help you, you help someone else, and the chain goes on, up and down. If ever you doubt the close contact of all classes of people in the world, just look at the spread of sexually transmitted diseases, and rest assured that the small world paradox is true.
Re:What is this going to prove (Score:2)
Re:Try socialism. (Score:2)
Of course, the article is in Portuguese, so you'll have to either trust me or wait for somebody to translate (I haven't scrolled down yet, maybe somebody already did).
P.S.: People able to afford $200 on something here are not "quite wealthy". They're middle class, just like in the USA. The difference is, only about 10% of people here are middle-class, versus 89% poor and 1% obscenely rich.
Re:Digital Divide is a Stupid Fad (Score:2)
But well, yeah, the digital divide is just a symptom of a much deeper problem, I guess you're right about that. However, it may be convienient to set agendas, who knows...
Re:It's a MYTH I tell you (Score:3)
In order for Moore's law to dictate the half life of the "digital divide" it would need to say something about the rate of decline in retail price of computers. Unfortunately, that is not what Moore's law talks about: it says that the feature geometry of integrated circuits doubles every 18 months, which is only one factor in the retail price of products which use integrated circuits.
The actual half-life of the "digital divide," as measured by the price for an entry level home computer, has been declining steadily since the mid-'80s, but not by 50% every 18 months. While you may be able to purchase twice as much of any given computer resource (memory, storage, instructions-per-second) every 18 months, this is not due to a decrease in system price, but to an increase in system performance, while prices stayed, largely, fixed. The actual rate of decline in the price of computer systems is more like 10% per year, over the past 15 years, which makes the half-life of the digital divide something more like 5-years (especially when we also account for wage and price inflation).
With a half-life of 5-years, the "digital divide" will be essentially gone (less than 10% of the world population will be offline) by 2050. Long before then, however, the "digital divide" will have lost any political power it may currently have: by 2010 we can expect that less than one quarter of the world population will be offline.
i don't think "michael" gets it (Score:5)
hmmm, well lets see what a search on yahoo brings up... for "community computer access"
search results [yahoo.com]
it seems to me that there are a TON of non profit organizations throughout the united states with the sole purpose of providing cheap computers and cheap/free internet access and training to individuals.
now, considering most are non-profit, that means that they get tax incentives from the government, federal grants and subsidies, as well as local government incentives.
now how can you say something like your above statement?
Re:Once again, the world misses the point. (Score:3)
No. In poorer countries, most things are cheaper than in the US and Europe, for obvious reasons. But computers, being foreign-made, have roughly the same price everywhere. Thus, a family can have decent living standards with a decent house, a decent diet and a decent medical attention, and still be unable to afford a computer.
As for crappy schools, the notion that the quality of your school should be linked to the money you have (except of course for the 1-2% who can attend very expensive private schools) or the city you live in is a very American one.
The other point is, who is paying for this. If the government is sucking up the "loss" in the sales, where is that money coming from, taxxed people? So now you will take other people's money away so that less fortunate won't fall behind on the latest issue of "the Onion" and can keep up with slashdot? WTF?
Translation in the educational/medical domain: "So now you will take other people's money away so that less fortunate will have a reasonable life expectancy and even possibly get a decent education ?"
We're not talking about "power rangers" here. We're talking about basic IT-literacy. We're talking about a divide that might soon become almost as important as the one between people who can read/write, and people who can't. Maybe you'll call me an arrogant European socialist, but the idea to take money from GE, IBM and Esso (big corporations contribute much more to tax revenue than "taxpayers" do) to enhance significantly the fate of a huge majority of the population, that idea does not really strikes me as particularly upsetting.
In fact that's exactly what 90% of western countries do. Britain and US being two noticeable exceptions.
Thomas Miconi