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Data Mining? 104

Posted by michael from the kinakuta dept.
portmonk writes: "Interesting article on ISP-Planet regarding subterranean co-lo. Bomb shelter and hosting in one easy package..."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Data Mining? More

Data Mining?

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  • ... (Score:1)

    by isudoru ( 452928 )
    sounds interesting, but who will actually need this? :)
  • ... on the sub-"ISP" level...

  • Haven't we seen exactly the same before? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Jon Chatow ( 25684 ) <slashdot@jdforrester.org> on Saturday August 25, 2001 @05:00AM (#2215939) Homepage
    It's called thebunker.net, a refurbished former nuclear underground bomb shelter (sound familiar?), and was discussed on /. a while back. Given that "search is down", I can't provide a link, sorry. Personally, I can't see what this particular example of the type adds to the discussion here, but nevermind...

    • Not quite the same (Score:3, Insightful)

      by XNormal ( 8617 )
      This mine should be at least as secure as a suburban datacenter for a lower physical security budget. It has cooling that is at least as reliable as a conventional datacenter for a lower budget. These should translate to cost savings for their customers.

      These guys appear to concentrate on bringing a cost-effective service to their customers rather than nuclear bunker bragging rights. Have you seen the prices on thebunker.net?

  • was co-lo in an (formerly) abandoned platform in the Northern Sea [havenco.com], then this. Whhat's next? A submarine? Co-lo in the international space station?

  • Crackers using tactical nukes (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    By using the same logic as the opponents of the missile defense shield do, co-locating servers underground will only destabilise the net and cause a devastating arms race between the system administrators and crackers. Eventually no amount of rock above your server room will save you. The crackers will just buy tactical nukes and use them to "deny the service".

    Therefore locating servers in secure environment must be banned.

    • Crackers? STFU jigaboo (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Ya like when some crack crazed jigaboo steals one of the servers and runs towards the nearest pawn shop that's not a denial of service?

  • UG (Score:1)

    by Menteb ( 161089 )
    How Underground Geekish.

  • Isnt this a redundant concept but ? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by q-soe ( 466472 ) on Saturday August 25, 2001 @05:09AM (#2215955) Homepage
    I like the idea but i was sitting here wondering that in this day of supposedly low cost bandsidth why would you go to the cost of building huge co-los in destruction proof environments ?

    There is a secure need for co-lo fdacilites etc but why not just build a mirrod system with 4-5 sites carrying the data - a sort of broadband raid, this would cut down the need for these facilites.

    Now this is only an idea and it might have a million logical reasons behind it but would it not be cheaper that concrete bunkers and dedicated power systems and such ? (i am asking would it or not?)

    Or is it that clients like a cool ultra secure bunker - it makes them feel good and powerfull ?

    Any thoughts?

    • Why? Paying for 4-5 sites would probably be more expensive than just one. This one was built in a space that was not being utilized to the max, they didn't have a group looking for 'The Ultimate Colocation Center'. It also saves cost, the cooling systems consist of a couple of fans. I'm assuming, but the cooling in some datacenters must be budget consuming beasts.

      It also has some other unique features, it'd be awfully hard for someone to steal your box, as its inside a mine :) It's also pretty much immune from fires, some idiot with a car slamming into your building.. etc.. It also has a ton of room, something cities are in short supply, as well it'll be one of the first things powered back up. Besides, some people want their data stored in a place that is indeed bombproof. Hell, this thing might even be immune to EMP, because of its particular location.


    • There is a secure need for co-lo facilites etc but why not just build a mirrored system with 4-5 sites carrying the data - a sort of broadband raid, this would cut down the need for these facilites


      How about cost, performance, and design restrictions?

      I think you're assuming that such a site would be serving basic, somewhat static html, in which case that may be an option. But I don't think that it would work out for a more complex application.

      I design/develop/administrate a lot of Oracle-specific system architectures, specifically for sites with large numbers of financial transactions *cough - gambling - cough*, and let me tell you that such physically distributed systems can be EXPENSIVE, both in cash (eg: network/storage infrastructure is almost duplicated) and performance (latency involved in a physically distributed 2-phase commit will kill performance on the client side). Lets not even talk about the logistics involved in running/managing/designing a large physically distributed Oracle cluster!

      Sometimes it is WAY cheaper to put all of your eggs into one cushy, bomb-proof basket.

  • I have to say I'm impressed!

    First off though - the line "it has a virtually unlimited supply of free, humid, 50-degree Fahrenheit air. USDCO simply hooks up two large fans in each room" Humid? Err - isn't that a BAD thing for a data center? I know it was when I managed one. But man - 50 degrees abient temp would be sweet! The 10K sq ft data center I used to manage had like 5 Liebert cooling towers and it STILL seemed to get too warm at times!

    I love how they know they'll be back on-grid quickly because of the food storage - and hey - you don't have to go up to the surface to eat lunch! Sweet!

    How nice to see a tech company say "We've had VC offers because our business plan is obviously good and obviously different, but we want to grow organically. Alsoâ"it may be a Western Michigan thingâ"but we believe in something called 'service.' We don't want to expand too fast." If only more tech companies had realized that the VC money was a bad thing!

    I wish them the best of luck! Course it would suck working there - man talk about being a pasty white geek! Time to invest in some fiber to pipe in sunlight :)

    • The 10K sq ft data center I used to manage had like 5 Liebert cooling towers

      I'm really looking for the day when I can find my way to a co-location site like this just by looking for the cooling towers steaming outside [tssphoto.com]...

    • Dry air results in static electricity. Unless the data center is in a swamp (e.g. Houston, New Orleans), the data center probably has both a dehumidifier and a humidifier. Humidifiers are very common in data centers.
    • In theory, mines might be vulnerable to flooding or earthquakes, but these are geological rarities for inland Michigan.

      Floods a "geological rarity" in Michigan? Not when I lived there. Every spring there are floods around the state on various rivers. I forget the name of the river that flows through Grand Rapids, but Grand Rapids wasn't named for fast-moving concert pianos...


      In any event, near a river or not, most mines (don't know about gypsum mines) have some ground water seepage, and as a result have sumps and electrically powered pumps to keep the water at bay. I'd be a bit worried about losing power for an extended periods. Of course you have short-term data issues then, but it could easily lead to long-term...er...damage issues.

  • From the space available, ability to provide connectivity up to oc192 and the inexpensive pricing, I can't imagine this wouldn't do well. Unless people in Michigan are afraid to go that far underground.

    What I would like to know is, what type of demand for co-location services are there in Michigan?

    And how long does it take to get from ground level to the data center?

    Anyone?
    • There's a big NAP in Chicago, and Grand Rapids isn't far from there. Plenty of fat pipes run right past GR or Kalamazoo on their way from Chicago to Lansing.

      There's another mine [detroitsalt.com] in Detroit that closed down a few years ago due to unfavorable economic conditions. We went on a tour just before they shut it down, thinking we'd be some of the last humans in that mine. (They were considering turning it into a nuclear waste storage facility, because the salt vein is so geologically stable.) They modernized and reopened the mine in 1998 though. Once the salt's removed from an area, it becomes useless. Data co-lo is an ideal way for the mine companies to get income from space that otherwise sits idle.

      A big secure co-lo in Detroit would be great. We already have a few large above-ground facilities, and Detroit's a great place to locate NOCs because it doesn't have hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. We get the occasional tornado but those usually just rip up awnings. A subterranean co-lo, just a few miles from the NOC, seems like an ideal scenario.
  • Humidity, 50 degrees F ? Gasp, computers will get a cold.
  • B.J. Blazkowicz

    well, it sure looked like the game - and bosses name is 'Wolfson'

    yeh, yeh, I know - I'm showing my age - but Wolfenstein was a top game

  • When there is a nuclear war and they get stuck in that thing, they can eat all that stored food and play quake 3 for the rest of their live :-)
  • This submission got rejected, but you might enjoy the RealAudio [wamu.org] of Friday's Diane Rehm show [wamu.org] (on NPR [npr.org]) about the exploration of Mammoth Cave. The politics between the explorers is amazingly similar to most hackers I know! Give a listen.

  • I seem to recall another /. article a while back related to problems with data centers; this really hits the spot.

    Going subterranean is, IMHO, one of the best options we've got right now. You get (1) better/cheaper cooling (unless you decide to dig around geothermal vents ;), (2) better security (fewer potential points of entry), etc.

    Now, what really surprised me was the statement that they'd be offered base level colocation for around $100 a month for 1U. Needless to say, this is pretty decent, especially given the bandwidth they appear to be wielding (up to OC-192?!?!?! nice :)). Seems like a very good solution all in all, but here's the catch: how many sites exist that are this ideal? In their case, the "hole" was already there (no digging costs), and all they've really had to worry about is bandwidth provisioning and erecting lots of basic walls. Anyone know of more sites that meet these conditions?

  • First HavenCo, then this; what will they think of next?
  • wonderful, so if the world comes to an end and the data cables that people access your server on get destroyed, you will STILL be able to claim 99.999% uptime, even though NOBODY is able to acess the data, right?
  • "Is USDCO buying other mines? "We have options on other sites."

    Someone is going to copy this model saying:
    "We must not have a mineshaft gap!"

    Miss you Stanley....

    =tkk

    Now if I could just work 'precious bodily fluids' into a post...

  • The agency I work for has a data center about
    80 feet underground too. (Not in rural
    Michigan, but in downtown Washington DC, I should
    point out.) The biggest worry the insurance
    underwriters have is flooding - not so much from
    a natural disaster as a goof in the plumbing
    above our heads. Moisture detectors everywhere
    under the false floor. When I spilled coffee
    in one of the machine rooms a couple of weeks ago
    I saw the swiftest response by building
    maintenance I've ever witnessed!

    Taking out the computers that run a $10Billion
    peripheral is pretty bad for your business plan,
    it turns out!
  • $100/ru with 10gb/mo thats very expensive. With all the natural features of this datacenter you'd think these guys could do better....
  • As a sysadmin at a Grand Rapids company considering colocating 15 rack U's or so of Linux goodness with USDCO, I've had the opportunity to take several tours of their facility (one was yesterday, in fact). I'll clarify a few points I saw browsing through the comments:

    Humid? Err - isn't that a BAD thing for a data center?

    Nope. You need 50-60% relative humidity, or static electricity starts to destroy your equipment.

    These guys appear to concentrate on bringing a cost-effective service to their customers rather than nuclear bunker bragging rights.

    Indeed - their price of $100+80(n-1) per month, where n=# of U's you need, is quite reasonable, especially for a smaller company like us [solidusdesign.com].

    And how long does it take to get from ground level to the data center?

    The elevators can take you up or down the 85-foot tunnels in about 45 seconds.

    In any event, near a river or not, most mines (don't know about gypsum mines) have some ground water seepage, and as a result have sumps and electrically powered pumps to keep the water at bay.

    Indeed, there are a few areas in which small pools of water form from the ground seepage. However, these are, as you say, sump pumped away, and no such pool is anywhere in the vicinity of the data center itself.

    I forget the name of the river that flows through Grand Rapids, but Grand Rapids wasn't named for fast-moving concert pianos.

    It's the Grand River, surprisingly enough... :)

    hey - you don't have to go up to the surface to eat lunch! Sweet!

    Sorry - the food stored down in the mine itself (as opposed to the storage in the aboveground buildings on top of the mine) consists of 2000-pound (1-ton) lugs of powdered milk for the yogurt factory close to the mine... icky for lunch. :)

    Or is it that clients like a cool ultra secure bunker - it makes them feel good and powerfull

    Not to mention 31337... :)

  • I would be concerned about a fire, actually.

    I was on a caving trip once, and one of the NiCd packs internally shorted when we were in a fairly small chamber. Fortunately a microtemp fuse cut off the offending battery before the pack melted, so we didn't get any poisonous gases.

    But how would you go in the mine? What if a tantalum shorts out and the place gets filled with smoke?


    Do you all get to play with the breathing apparatus, or what?

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