First-Person Account Of Today's Attacks 1084
I was scheduled to testify today at the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office's "Patent Theatre" in Crystal City, Virginia, on the intellectual property aspects of the proposed Hague Convention on Jurisdiction. I had sweated for days over a prepared oral statement about the treaty's implications for student coders and journalists.
My friend Rob Carlson and I left Baltimore early (shortly after 7:00 a.m.) and deposited ourselves at an outlying Metro stop, intending to take the subway into Crystal City. We arrived without incident.
Upon disembarking at Crystal City, I gave the sounds of various sirens little heed -- even as the municipality's Battalion Chief (fire department) roared past, red and white lights flashing.
"There must be a fire nearby," Rob said, glancing upward as fluffy chunks of ash drifting down into the USPTO's courtyard like huge downy feathers.
The hearing room was uncharacteristically vacant. I sat down next to my former boss, Consumer Project on Technology director Jamie Love, and flipped open my laptop to read over my prepared oral testimony.
"Did you hear? A plane hit the World Trade Center in New York!" Jamie whispered excitedly, ensconced in a pile of laptop peripherals and scattered newspapers. I froze momentarily, floppy disk half inserted into my laptop. Looking up, I noticed most of the hearing's attendees appeared to be in shock. A few sat rigid in their seats, hands folded in their laps, staring ahead in numbed silence. Others milled about, busily discussing the foreign policy ramifications of the morning's events. No one seemed to be concentrating on the hearing.
Federal government officials present -- (I recognized members of the U.S. State Department, Copyright Office and PTO) reacted differently -- receiving the sporadic stream of dispatches and rumors from PTO staffers running in and out of the Theatre with detached contemplation. It appeared that the Feds had discarded their usual mantle of chatty, diplomatic ambiance, and had switched into Crisis Mode.
"If anyone really wants to testify now, they can. At this time, we are not evacuating the building," proclaimed a Patent Office functionary. No one took her up on her offer, and several folks murmured quietly about the inappropriateness of proceeding with the hearing given the context and magnitude of events.
More runners entered the Theater, bearing news of additional disasters -- some alleged, some actual. Rumors about the destruction of various Washington agencies and landmarks whipped throughout the conference room.
I closed my laptop, which had been teetering idle on my lap for several minutes. People started for the door, hesitating in case the unspoken consensus for scrapping the hearing was improbably reversed. Cell phones were whipped out of suit pockets and family members dialed to no effect.
"You can always submit written testimony." declared U.S. delegate to the Hague Conference and PTO attorney-advisor Jennifer Lucas as the long-planned hearing disintegrated.
I felt a mix of emotions: disappointed that I wouldn't have the chance to testify and lock horns with the MPAA and other industry lobbyists, and guilty for having such self-centered thoughts during this crisis.
Rob and I headed out toward the lobby. He decided that we should skip the elevator and go down a flight of stairs to the lobby.
The courtyard of the Patent Office facility (which had been nearly deserted when we arrived) was packed with a milling, chattering crowd. Security guards peered about pensively as if reassuring themselves that the building was indeed still standing. Soon after, a shout went up that the Patent Office was being evacuated.
The head of the U.S. Delegation to the Hague Conference (and State Department legal advisor) Jeff Kovar brushed past me with an associate in tow.
"We're walking to the State Department." Kovar grimly mentioned to no one in particular, and started the long hike back to his office.
Rob and I weaved our way through gridlocked traffic and headed toward the Crystal City Metro station. Several Federal Marshalls stood about -- one wearing a boxy bulletproof vest, another wearing a pink blouse with a lanyard ID. Military personnel huddled together on the sidewalk, segregated according to the hue of their uniforms. Fast moving, thin white clouds rushed overhead. I wasn't sure if they were really smoke pluming from the Pentagon.
We jumped into a Yellow Line train alongside a pair of blue-shirted Air Force officers. I watched as an orange ladybug crawled up the silver-stitched epaulet of the officer closest to me, and informed him of its presence. He stared at me for a silent moment before carefully removing the insect.
"That's the least of my problems," he said. "Thanks anyway."
To the Firefighters and Police of NYC (Score:4, Insightful)
First Person (Score:1, Insightful)
Hell, I was alive when it happened, put MY story on slashdot!
Re:To the Firefighters and Police of NYC (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:lost a friend (Score:1, Insightful)
1. Help save those trapped in the rubble
2. Beef up security against terrorists attacks (i.e. find out how the terrorists were able to hijack so many planes)
3. Find out who the terrorists are
4. Find out what they want/why they did this
5. Evaluate their rational (maybe we gave them cause, it's possible)
6. See if it's possible to both hold the leaders responsible and appease their demands if it's reasonable.
The key thing is a dialogue. If the terrorists want to complain about something to the US, and we just ignore them, then that could explain why the go to such drastic measurers.
F-bacher
From across the river in NJ (Score:4, Insightful)
After looking at this sight for a few minutes, I went back to the NOC, and was informing coworkers of what I saw. Someone came in, and said "Another airplane hit the other building!". I ran down the hallways again, and sure enough, there was the flames and the fires. I felt sick, as I was sure this was not accidental. And one of my first thoughts was 'Bin Laden.'.
I don't really remember the next few minutes that well, but I do remember standing in an office nearby when the first building went down. Puffs of smoke were comming up from the bottom, and we all thought another bomb had gone off. Remember, at this time we were hearing reports of bombings at the capital, the pentagon, the mall, and the whitehouse. We all stood dumbly as the bulding fell, and I don't think anyone spoke. And a little after that, the other one came down. I did not see that one, for which I am glad. The sight of the first one is going to haunt me as long as I live I fear.
God help us, God help the victims, and God help those poor bastards who did this. Our revenge will be terrible.
Future of Encryption (and our civil rights)? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you thought the FBI wiretapping Little Nicky Scarfo on only a search warrant was horrifying, consider the bully stick that will be bandied about now. Encryption is bad. Terrorists using encryption got past all our intelligence. Outlaw encryption now! If we didn't have to go through all that judicial rigamarole to keep an eye on terrorists, we would have done better. We promise we won't wiretap anyone without a magistrate's approval who doesn't really, really, REALLY deserve it.
As shocking and horrifying as what happened today is, and as unbelievable that the intelligence community knew nothing about it (or did they? [slashdot.org]), I am scared shitless about what we have ahead of us.
Losing close friends sucks, yes - BUT. (Score:5, Insightful)
my girlfriend had a friend in one of the airplanes that went down. anyone who calls for forgiveness and not retaliation for this act should have to pick one of their friends to be killed and then see how they feel. fucking barbarians.
Do you think innocent people aren't going to die when we retaliate? Do you think innocent people aren't going to die when the terrorists respond to our retaliation?
If our retaliation were to consist of 30 bullets to the heads of all terrorist leaders, thats great - I'm all for it. But I'm very weary of the words I'm already hearing from the pentagon - threats against any nation that harbors terrorists. That doesn't mean we're targeting terrorists, specifically, you know.
The obvious mechanical response to violence is more violence... but violence doesn't solve violence - you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.
level heads (Score:5, Insightful)
If anyone remembers after the OKC bombing everyone thought it was Arabs (specificly muslums), and there were instances of violence agains Arabic Americans. We do not know yet who did this, and even if it does turn out to be Arabs, or Muslums, please make it a point to speak out against any type of retaliation agains Arabs and Muslums in the US. No more inocent people need to suffer for the actions of a few extremists. We all need to make sure that freedom in this country survies through this disaster. It almost scares me that things like this need to be writen, but humanity being what it is, I figure it can't hurt.
Thank you
Justin
Re:entropy# rm /bin/laden (Score:5, Insightful)
What you can do now. (Score:4, Insightful)
I ran downtown to be of some use, and made my way deep into the financial district shortly after the second building collapsed. Large groups of us volunteers gathered, waiting for instructions, but unless you were a doctor or CPR certified, there was not much you could do. A few of us volunteered to give blood, and we were put on a bus that led us through the carnage of the area surrounding the towers. Inches of ash and soot. Entire blocks covered in papers, most halfway burnt. Eventually, we were rerouted, and taken to Saint Vincent's medical center to donate, but turned away due to the incredible volume of people willing to donate.
I'm planning to donate tomorrow, and if you live in Manhattan, please do so as well.
In the meantime, despite all the horrendous acts of the past 12 hours--all the heartache, all the loss of life--please, let's try to keep a level head about things. If we go off bombing another country, there will most likely be civilian casualties there as well--what more evidence do we need to see that life is precious? I saw too many dying people carted in on stretchers at St. Vincent's today.
Even if they die in another country, they are still people, and bleed red like you and me.
I found out from Penny Arcade (Score:5, Insightful)
USA was asking for this to happen. (Score:1, Insightful)
8 years passed by us so quickly and nothing was done to improve America's military. People who ignorantly wanted an immediate cruise-missile attack would discover that our cruise-missile stock is at 33% of capacity from its over use in our previous president's term. The terrorists, I may add, were not brilliant in their attack. They could've dumped Anthrax in the drinking water aqueducts, but made their approach more memmorable. USA must improve itself and think of how it has been acting these past years. Be thankfull we have a good, new president
light a candle, say a prayer, give some blood (Score:2, Insightful)
What a phone call (Score:4, Insightful)
Then I heard an explosion over the phone, as my boss excalimed "Oh my God! There was just a second explosion, this has to be a terrorist attack!" He had to run -- for hopefully obvious reasons -- and I have not been able to contact him since.
This isn't informative in any way, but I simply wanted to put it in writing. If you read this, thanks for hearing me out. Sometimes just writing out what you feel is quite helpful. Most of my family is in New York, and so are most of my business aquiantances. I have no idea how they are all doing, nor how soon I will be able to return. To everyone else going through this uncertainty right now, I wish you the best of luck.
what you can do (Score:5, Insightful)
1. give blood. the local red cross nationwide will be holding blood drives tomorrow if they haven't managed to start today. Don't bother going to the red cross site its attackdotted. just look up the red cross in your white pages. or go to the mall thats where my local is holding their drive tomorrow (thr first of many)
2. you can give money if you can't give blood. its easy too. I don't know about other places but hear in southeastern virginia you can go to Food Lion (local big box grocery store) at the register there are 1$, 3$, and 5$ coupons that can be scanned and add the amount to your bill. instantly you've given the red cross money to help.
I've already given my 5 bucks and tomorrow am heading for the mall to give blood. I suggest we all do the same.
I'm not military but I work on base. NAS Oceana in va beach VA. my entire community is in shock. we are the largest military town in the world and also a huge target. schools are closed businesses are closed streets are empty as family members say goodbye to sailors, soldiers and airmen as they are called into duty. the aircraft carriers that are underway for new york and D.C. are based here. I've probably served them a hamburger. (yes, mcdonalds) don't know if I'm going to work tomorrow or not.this is all too bizarre.
3. Lastly. most importantly, we should keep a level head, put aside our differences and back our president no matter how much we may dislike him. (card carrying democrat here) now is not a time for finger pointing and antagonism.
Re:Coincidence? (Score:4, Insightful)
A Third Person Report (Score:4, Insightful)
My cousin, Maryann, worked in the WTC for the Port Authority of NY and NJ.
She was on her way to work, on a bus in NYC, when she saw the first plane hit. She, and the others on the bus thought it was an accident.
Then she saw the second plane hit and realized it was no accident.
She got out of the bus and started walking north. She went to the Port Authority Bus Terminal, but it was closed. As she worked for the Port Authority, they let her in to sit a while. She is short and overweight, and not used to all that walking.
She then heard that trains were leaving from Penn Station. So she walked on down and got on a very crowded train.
She didn't want to go home and be alone, so she went to my parent's who live a couple of miles from her home.
She told her story to my mom and dad. And cried and cried. She had worked there for over thirty years. She doesn't know how many of her freinds and coworkers are dead. She does know that her best friend is alive. She can't get the images out of her head.
Eventually her husband made it home and took Maryann to their house. Other cousins and friends came over to be with her, and a doctor cousin brought her a sedative.
It turns out one of the planes hit the floor she worked on.
I have not spoken with Maryann. My parents told me this story, thus it is a third hand story.
My parents and my cousins live in NJ. I live in NJ. I work in Torrance, CA. I fly out and back ever other week, Philadelphia to LA. My boss flies out every week to LA from Newark. It is possible that he and/or I new some of the flight crew (we've been back and forth for several years now). I'm sure I'll be quite nervous when I fly home, and each time I fly for quite some time to come.
I am a regular blood donor and last gave blood last Tuesday. Please give blood if you are able. Thanks.
Steve M
I was there (Score:4, Insightful)
Have to add content to get past the lameness filter
Re:lost a friend (Score:3, Insightful)
2. Negotiation and appeasment only encourages the use of terror as a tool.
3. There is no sufficient rational (sic) for the calculated murder of non-governmental, non-military personnel on this--or any--scale.
4. How do you propose to open a dialog with civilians (in other words, not other governments) who actively hide from any contact?
I don't think we should ignore them--I think we should take them off the table. And that's not just a visceral reaction to today's horror. I would suggest that most people who still see this event in terms other than 'war' have not yet accepted the magnitude of the event. In all likelihood, four or five times as many people died today as died at Pearl Harbor (and we're all going to be sick of that comparison by tomorrow. Yet it is the only one we really have). This wasn't a natural disaster, or a car bomb of protest--it was an act of war. We need to address it as such, even though the enemy is not a conventional enemy.
Re:Passengers on planes (Score:5, Insightful)
Forgive me for speculating. In truth, none of us will ever know the complete story of what happened on board those airliners. But for years, everyone has been trained and told to sit tight, don't resist, and let the negotiators do their work. Before, that has always been good advice. As of this morning, it may be the worst thing you could do.
My heart goes out to the families of all the victims, everywhere.
Re:To the Firefighters and Police of NYC (Score:2, Insightful)
With love...
Re:Future of Encryption (and our civil rights)? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's exactly what scares the piss out of me. Even as a very firm civil libertarian, I waver somewhat on my convictions in the face of something like what happened today. It's purely an emotional response, rather than a logical one. Even with unlimited secret wiretaps and complete world-wide key escrow, it would have been well nigh impossible to prevent today's actions, and my logical mind knows that. As a human though, you have to feel an inexorable pull to do whatever is necessary to prevent this from happening again.
The hard part will be convincing the "man in the street" of the same thing. Come on too strong, and you seem to be a callous whack job. Too soft, and you might as well undo the pants, because your ports aren't the only thing that's going to get probed on the net.
Re:level heads (Score:5, Insightful)
I think its time that everyone has a good look at their sigs....
Giving Blood (Score:5, Insightful)
Terrorism, jingoism, and hysteria (Score:5, Insightful)
first heard the big news on the bus. Some yuppies in the back were talking, obviously taking about six seconds of CNN
coverage and filling in the gaps with their own conjecture and racism.
"It must have been Osama Bin Laden," one said. I wonder how much this person knows about Osama Bin Laden other than
the fact that the State Department made him boogeyman of the year a while back.
"We need to kick them [Arabs] out of the country. They can't come in any more. Sorry." said a woman.
After a few minutes I gathered that some planes had been hijacked and flown into the World Trade Center. No one knew who
did it, but just like the days immediately after the Oklahoma City Bombing, it was assumed to be the Arabs.
When I got to work things were even uglier. One of my coworkers said, "can't we just beat them to death?"
We're not even sure who did it yet. Members of various groups have claimed responsibility then other members of the same
group have denied it. Many folks on the 'net have cited a television broadcast of Palestinians cheering, but that means nothing.
Some have expressed shock at this, but really, how many of these same people sat patriotically by and watched remote-control
warfare on CNN when we attacked Iraq or Serbia? I'm not saying it's good that people are cheering, but I am saying it's not
surprising.
I'm hearing the usual epithets that one hears when people react to a shocking, violent news event: "sick", "crazy", "coward". At
the risk of appearing to defend the attacks, I'm really not sure if this is productive. Terrorists aren't necessarily "sick" or
"cowards". Terrorists are simply soldiers who can't afford uniforms and high tech military hardware. They are not necessarily
more or less sick and cowardly than the U.S. pilots who bombed a pharmaceutical plant in Sudan a few years ago, or the ones
who firebombed Tokyo and Dresden in the Second World War.
It's important to put things in context, keep a cool head, and deal with the situation as it exists. It's important that none of us be
like the guy who posted to Usenet after the Oklahoma City bombing that we should just randomly attack cities in the Mideast
(after it turned out to be an American, some folks asked him if he thought we should randomly attack cities in the Midwest).
We must follow the words of Mother Jones who once told us, "Mourn for the dead, fight like hell for the living."
That means fighting for living non-White non-Americans, too. Many of us are feeling a compassion for the victims of this attack.
We must keep this compassion alive if and when we hear calls for random bombings of the Mideast, or for attacks on civilian
populations in Iraq, Iran, or Afghanistan. We must fight like hell against the racism and xenophobia that hides just under the
surface of our culture, manifesting itself in people who want to kick Arabs out of our country or beat them to death. We must
safeguard the lives of our fellow human beings and we must be vigilant against those in power who will use this as an excuse to
destroy our civil liberties the way they did in the anti-German and anti-radical scares around the First World War or the
Japanese internment during the Second World War.
We must not get hysterical about this being the beginning of World War III. World War III would require both sides to have a
military. Those with a military don't hijack planes. We must not allow the anti-Arab violence that shot up dramatically during the
Gulf War happen again ten years later. We must stop our government from acting like the 800-pound gorilla of the world that
stifles all peaceful attempts at change (like our actions regarding the recent U.N. conference on racism) and therefore makes
violent acts of terrorism the only recourse for some.
We must counter hysteria and paranoia with logic and reason. We must protect our Arab-American brothers and sisters against
jingoism and hatred. We must remember that a lynching is a lynching whether it's performed by people in klan white, police
blue, or army green. We must end the bombing and starvation of the people of Iraq started by Bush the Elder and continued
under Bush the Lesser. This attack was on the centers of American military power and economic domination. Just as we mourn
for the dead who worked at these institutions, we must fight for the living who are victim of their policies.
If we don't fight for the living; if we allow hatred, paranoia, and jingoism to determine our actions; if we cheer U.S. military
superiority as made-for-tv bombing campaigns kill more civilians and destroy more lives; than we are the real cowards.
Re:Passengers on planes (Score:3, Insightful)
When your on a plane, and it is being hijaked, the standard human response is that of panic. Most people don't think well in panic. The situation these people were placed it was probably almost surreal in their minds. Though it would only require one person to get the uprising against the captors started, it is hard to be that one person. You can never be sure the others will follow, and that is if you can even think clear enough to think about it.
NBC against the Christian God (Score:2, Insightful)
Self-Centered? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, indeed it is a crisis. But I hardly think that testifying against unjust legislation is self-centered.
Among other terrible consequences, the government is likely to use this event to leverage more scary laws which limit our freedom, this time for the sake of intelligence groups. It will also not be self-centered to be a voice of reason in these issues as well, so don't give up!
German Impressions, and thinking about Who, Why, a (Score:5, Insightful)
Driving home took me twice as long because many places like the U.S. Embassy and many Jewish places were heavily guarded and many streets were blocked.
I myself had my father murdered last year, and I feel with everybody who has lost relatives or friends in this brutal crime, who will live through moments of this day through next months again and again, and who will not enjoy a happy moment for long while. Everybody who has ever lost a loved one as result of criminal violence knows what I am talking about.
What can help is to find out who did it, why they did it, and what can be done that such a thing will never happen again.
Jane's has some professional assessment [janes.com] of who might be capable and has a motive for doing such a thing.
Their analysts say Osama Bin Laden is Nr. 1 on the list of suspects.
Whoever will turn out to be behind this, it is very probable that he used Know-How that was originally created within some government secret agency like the KGB, the CIA, the Mossad or maybe a dozen other government funded agencies from around the world.
The USA has it's share in supporting "freedom fighters" against foreign rogue governments. The USA once even supported Osama Bin Laden when he organized the Rebellion in Afghanistan against the Russian occupation. Other examples of former U.S. friends are Sadam Hussein, who was supported in his war against Iran, the Contra in Nicaragua, and the UCK in Yugoslavia fighting against the Serbs. There are probably a few hundred groups and leaders supported worldwide by 'civilized' governments, many of them with the clear intention killing people to reach their political aims.
In the above and many other cases US agencies helped to spread weapons and guerrilla warfare techniques, and probably more important, it created shady organizations with capable leaders, structures and worldwide contacts with the primary purpose to spread terror and destruction.
The problem is, that after the war is won and the rogue government overthrown, these people, their weapons, their followers and their state of mind doesn't cease to exist.
Throw in some areas like Palestina, Afghanistan, Tchechenia, Africa and Middle/South America where children haven't been seen human rights or peace for the last 30 years, and you get a large supply of people who have nothing to loose except their miserable life, and get the chance to become eternal heroes within their society by blowing up themselves and taking as many as possible with them.
What can be done
No "civilized" country should sell any weapon to anyone without democratic legitimisation; even better, all international weapon trading should be simply forbidden, including hand guns
All secret agencies in "civilized" countries must be closer controlled to avoid creation of new guerrilla armies around the world
Anonymous Transfer and laundry of large sums of money must be controlled to dry up funding of weapon trade and funding of rouge groups
Every Individual connected with weapon trading or supporting guerrilla in a foreign country should be severely punished
Human rights must be honoured everywhere in the world, and everyone not honouring them should become outlawed
Fair International Trade and real substantial development support should help to create a reasonable level of wealth everywhere in the world
The problem with the above things is not that they require an idealistic world; the problem is, the would put many important and powerful people in the USA and other countries, Israel quite ahead, in the rogue camp.
The USA e.g. would have to face that killing imprisoned people, even convicted criminals, is not justice, but a crime against humanity.
And just hearing about some explosions in Kabul, it seems that the US Government has a long way to go, and to learn some more lessons. I do not have any sympathy for those lunatics in Afghanistan, but they are a result of cold war superpower games and did not chose their fate, and the killing of innocent people does not justify the killing other innocent people.
Another thing from history that many people in the U.S. are not aware of:
Terrorism works.
Especially in rich countries where life is highly valued, and people have a lot to loose they are easily scared by terrorist attacks, even if the real danger is statistically marginal compared to tobacco or traffic, the perceived danger is large enough to change a society.
And you can not stop terrorist attacks by people who are willing to sacrifice their life; just look to Israel these days.
You can not stop terror by killing people, as you can not cure your AIDS by fucking a virgin, as believed by many people in Africa and Asia.
Some predictions for the future:
Someone guilty will be found, probably Ben Ladin
Bombs will be thrown by the US Military, and more innocent people will be killed
A lot of annoying and expensive security measures will be taken
Civil Rights will be restricted in the U.S. and other civilized country
More innocent people will be killed in the U.S. by terrorist attacks
Finally, the terrorists will not achieve their ultimate goals and be hunted down and isolated from their environment;
to achieve this, compromises will be made to dry up the particular terror breeding grounds, like creating more wealth and stability in these regions
the fear of terrorism will have impact on political decisions, and in the long term US politicians will be more careful because of this fear
After this bad day I hope that today's events will be a unique experience in my life, and not the begin of a new era of terror and war.
Lets make this world a better place.
p.
Re:Terrorists must die. (Score:2, Insightful)
Kill all terrorists? How do you propose to identify them all? If our intelligence was even close to capable of accomplishing such a feat we would have stopped this before it ever happened. Lacking actual knowledge of terrorist identity, we'll just kill everyone in nations that have some reason to dislike the U.S. (most of them, for one reason or another). Yeah, that will really show us for the symbol of freedom and democracy we strive to be.
I know I just fed a troll, but I couldn't just not respond to this fool.
Terrorism, Blowback and the US (Score:2, Insightful)
This morning the Pentagon and World Trade Center towers were bombed by hijacked planes. How will the United States react to this attack? How will the people of this country come to understand these events, and what will be done as a result?
The citizens and residents of this country have the responsibility to guide our leaders in how we respond. The tendency amongst our politicians and media will be knee-jerk retalitation. Please let us resist the temptation to cause more harm than has already been done. Those who took these actions are now all dead along with the victims. Others may also be found to be responsible and they should be bought to justice through the process of international law.
This, like all acts of terrorism, is abhorrent. But whenever discussing terrorism it is important to note that the majority of terrorist actions are carried out by nation states, although they are not labeled as such by the corporate media. These actions far outweigh the private, individual actions of terror that we are all assuming today's attack to be. This attack did not occur in a vacuum.
As of yet we have no idea who is responsible. We believe it to be a case of 'blowback'. Why? The pentagon is a symbol of military power. The trade center is a symbol of economic power. These institutions stand for and act to perpetuate U.S. global dominance. An attack on either of these institutions individually could be variously interpreted. The combined attack on both suggests a target of US global hegemony.
As Chalmers Johnson writes in his book Blowback (publ. 2000, Henry Holt): 'The term "blowback", which officials of the Central Intelligence Agency first invented for their own internal use, is starting to circulate among students of international relations. It refers to the unintended consequences of policies that were kept secret from the American people. What the daily press reports as the malign acts of "terrorists" or "drug lords" or "rogue states" or "illegal arms merchants" often turn out to be the blowback from earlier American operations.'
Chalmers catalogues a number of American policies that have given cause to a variety of peoples to resent America. Among those peoples that we have antognized over the past 50 years he sites (in no particular order) Libyans, Chinese, Japanese, Saudis, Kurds, Koreans (both north and south). To that we could add peoples of Serbia, Iraq, Indonesia, Vietnam, as well as nearly every country in africa and the americas.
From Johnson again: 'Terrorism by definition strikes at the innocent in order to draw attention to the invulnerable. The innocent of the twenty-first century are going to harvest unexpected blowback disasters from the imperialist escapades of recent decades. Although most Americans may be largely ignorant of what was, and still is, being done in their names, all are likely to pay a steep price--individually and collectively--for their nation's continued efforts to dominate the global scene.'
As we move forward from today's disaster, lets beware of nationalist responses of revenge which serve to continue the cycle of violence. Let us introduce the concept of 'blowback' to contextualize acts of international terrorism, even as we argue against them. Let us take this opportunity to rethink the global effects of our behavior and how they impact our future security.
Joseph Maurer (josephmaurer@hotmail.com)
Oliver Crow (ocrow@skymind.com)
Re:From across the river in NJ (Score:1, Insightful)
Revenge is always terrible. You have a choice. You're not an animal or running under blind political or quasi-religous control. You have a choice. Revenge is not necessary.
What should be the response to violence? (Score:5, Insightful)
I sent the following letter to my friends:
______________________
Subject: What should be the response to violence?
September 11, 2001
Everyone,
As is often the case, the Economist seems to have the best story: America under Attack [economist.co.uk]
Also see The Economist front page [economist.co.uk]
One of the important points made in the article is that security in U.S. airports and on U.S. airplanes before the bombing was lax compared to the security in Europe.
The Economist article does not mention that the Bush Administration in the U.S. had recently increased its support for the Israeli government and therefore also Israeli violence. The Clinton administration, in contrast, was more careful not to do things which could be interpreted as an incitement to violence.
It is amazing to me that "intelligence" authorities claim that they did not have any idea that there would be an attack like this. Below is a link to an album cover from a band called "The Coup". It is black American "Party Music". The album was sold long before today's bombing. The album cover shows both towers of the World Trade Center in New York in flames:
The Coup -- Party Music, album cover shows the towers burning. [girlieaction.com]
Commentators on three of the largest U.S. TV networks, NBC, CBS, and ABC, have made comments that assume without debate that the U.S. will engage in military action in retaliation. One U.S. senator said on TV that the U.S. response should be comparable to the U.S. response to the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor. The U.S. response at the time of Pearl Harbor was to be the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons, causing genetic damage that continued long after Japan became a favored trading partner of the U.S.
Under the stress of conflict, people show how they truly think. It has always annoyed me that people who call themselves Christian often reveal that they don't really believe in the important messages of Christianity, and that they don't even understand those messages.
Basically, Jesus Christ's idea of not returning violence with violence means that we can protect ourselves, but that any response must be the true minimum necessary to achieve security. This is a theory that can be recommended even to the majority of people in the world who are not Christian. The theory seems to fit the facts. The facts seem to be that violence always has severely negative side-effects that overwhelm any effect that might be seen as positive.
This is my reply to the many people who are recommending violence as an answer to violence:
Do you have any thought that violence in retaliation might be a mistake, and might just invite further violence?
The U.S. government (not necessarily the U.S. people) has a history of thinking that violence is the answer. The U.S. killed 2,100,000 people in Vietnam and maybe 150,000 people in Iraq. The U.S. has bombed 14 countries in 30 years, killing a roughly estimated 3,000,000 people.
These people had mothers and fathers, friends and families and wives. Most of the citizens of the U.S. had, and have, no idea of the beliefs of the people that their government killed. Most people in the U.S. cannot even locate the countries the U.S. government bombed on a map of the world.
No matter how violent a country is, or how many people a violent country kills, there is still an inexhaustible supply of people in other countries who also want to engage in violence. Violence can be unending. Do you want that?
No matter how angry you are, there are thousands of people who are more angry than you. Do you want them to attack you?
The Bush administration recently increased U.S. support for the violence of the Israelis. This was sure to make the people being killed by the Israelis unhappy. Do you find it surprising that some of them are motivated to violence also?
There are many countries where people are severely distressed by Israeli violence. Recently there was a TV news story about street violence in which Israelis were killed. The Israeli counter-attack was shown on TV: A helicopter fired rockets at a building, causing huge explosions. It is not important in this instance whether the Israelis are the aggressors. What is important is that a significant number of people think they are the aggressors.
The problems between the Jews and the Arabs have existed for 3,300 years. The Jews say that they are the "chosen people" of God. The Jews say that Arabs are descended from an illegitimate child of their tribal founder, Abraham, and a slave girl.
It is not difficult to understand the thoughts of the Arabs. It is not difficult to understand that it is annoying to live next to a group of people who claim that they are superior, and that Arabs are inferior. It is not difficult to understand that it is annoying to live near people who claim that you are a descendent of a bastard and that God doesn't like you as much.
It is also not difficult to understand that the constant claims of the Jews of superiority over everyone else (including people of European descent like me) is mentally de-centering to Arabs who happen to be psychologically conflicted. Mentally de-centered people engage in violence. It's that simple.
Does the U.S. really have a place in a dispute that began 3,100 years before the founding of the country? How many people here really understand this dispute? What percentage of the citizens of the U.S. can even find Israel on a map of the world? I think the percentage is low.
I find the arrogance of my Jewish friends annoying, too. However, there are many differences between myself and the terrorists. I am less conflicted. I am better educated. It doesn't matter to me what other people have been saying for thousands of years; I don't believe Jews actually are superior. I don't live in an area where I am at risk of being killed by Israelis. I am not Arab, so I am not the target of the strongest claims of Jews that they are superior.
Violence is caused by mentally de-centered people. Being violent makes mentally de-centered people even more mentally de-centered. That's why violence is not a good answer to violence. Prevention is a good answer. Better understanding is a good answer. Being charitable long before any problems begin occurring is a good answer. But violence is not a good answer to violence.
Regards,
Michael Jennings
Innocent lives (Score:3, Insightful)
But...
The innocent lives will not be the primary targets, and I have some confidence that there will be every attempt to minimize the loss of innocent life. Today's attack was DIRECTED AT INNOCENTS, and that's a big difference. Or perhaps more properly, whoever planned today's attack considers that ANY American is part of the ENEMY. By that token, ANY of their citizens become part of our enemy, so there are no innocents there, either. Still, I'm sure our response will have some attempt at AIM, and not at common citizens. It gives me a little more respect for the Israeli over-zealous response to Palestinian attacks, where I had next to none, before. At least they have had *some* direction, not human bombs at restaraunts, and the like.
It's nothing but ugly.
The only good thing that can come from this is that world leaders will see how close to the brink we are, and pull back.
indeed if you care abotu life (Score:1, Insightful)
someone threw a brick thru her window,
she had a miscarriage right there,, lost the
baby.
u hear alot about how 'everyone came together'
and all this, but you dont hear about the
muslim's house in tulsa that got burned
down and spraypainted all over.
dan rather was good, esp. compared to other
networks, because he condemned the stereotypes
and such like. i didnt see that on CNN
and i thought it was quite irresponsible of CNN,
blabbering 'osama bin laden' all over the air
before they know anything... its like
what is the point of news, spread rumors
or report facts? well nobody makes a profit
off 'just facts'... whatever anyways
just keep your level head, stay a human
being instead of a stupid prejuidce
animal who kills and hurts innocent people.
I live 2 blocks from where the WTC used to stand (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:President's speech at 8.30 (Score:5, Insightful)
Wrong. He said it all:
"We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them."
He doesn't need to speak, just act.
Re:Passengers on planes (Score:2, Insightful)
I just don't see how it owuld be feasible.
A terrible way to wake up (Score:2, Insightful)
My father works in the Pentagon and my other sister works just across the river from the Pentagon. I freaked. My entire family was next door to or inside this entire disaster, and every fsking phone line and cell circuit seemed to be busy or down. I dialed my mother, my father's office, both sister's apartments, their cell phones.
My father works for the DIA and ABC had been reporting that the side of the building hit had been where the DIA offices were. But I finally got a hold of my mother to learn that my father had been in the basement of the Pentagon watching the WTC coverage on TV, and idly speculating about the odds of them surviving a hit if they were next, casually figuring their odds were pretty good since they were 4 levels of walls and security inside. My dad didn't even know they'd been hit until my mother called and told him to get his ass out of there because another plane had crashed into them. When he told her he'd go check and see if it was true, my mother ordered him to get home or else, and to get my sister out of there.
He and a coworker walked to my sister's office across the way because there was no way to get to the cars in the wreck of a parking lot. By the time he got there my sister's company had already been evacuated so he walked to her apartment in downtown DC to make sure she was ok. I finally got through to them on the phone as they were heading south in my sister's car.
While I'm incredibly thankful that my family is safe, I'm also aware that so many other families are not, and this a nightmare we won't be waking up from anytime soon.
Sedai
I've lived in Israel and this is different (Score:5, Insightful)
There are some similarities: the grim determination to rescue, clean up, and continue life as normal and not let it affect you. The pulling together of people from all walks of life uniting to help each other. The faith that sustains.
However, this attack feels very different. I think that the biggest difference is how unbelievable this attack is. I'm still having trouble comprehending that it actually happened in real life. Most suicide bombings are sickeningly real, while this is like a horrible fantasy.
There is also a freshness to the horror here. This is something that Americans have not really had to face. It is a naivete lost, a bubble burst. Very different from the weariness that Israelis feel at yet another attack.
Another aspect of this tragedy is that, to me, it is so huge that it's impersonal, faceless. We don't know who did this, have no person to put our finger on. There is no shaheed, his "heroic" face plastered throughout the Palestinian Authority. Nor do we really know why, or even exactly what their target was. The American government? The American people? Bankers? Globalization? Or, as our leaders proclaim, Freedom and democracy?
And the losses are so massive that it's impossible to get a sense of who the victims are, unless you know someone personally. I think that's the most important thing for us to concentrate on right now: there are real people who are real victims. We can't let the sheer numbers obscure the pain. Unfortunately, this attack will redefine tragedy: from now on, if "only" a hundred people are killed, that will seem like nothing. We must remember that each person is an entire world.
Re:Kill those Wogs. Death to Arabs and Towel Heads (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't think racial assumptions and stereotyping is going to help resolve this situation any sooner, nor adds to the great discource that is remarkable appearing on slashdot.
F-bacher
My account of this terrible day, from a New Yorker (Score:3, Insightful)
My girlfriend lives on John street, about a 5-10 minute walk from the Trade Center. Two times when we were walking around there I specifically stopped my girlfriend and told her to look up and think of how catastrophic it would've been if the towers fell after the bombing a few years ago. How many would've been killed. When I discussed this with her I shook my head and thought to myself how truly terrible it would've been. Now it's come to pass.
Live shots of Manhattan show one big cloud. You can't even see many of the buildings. The NY skyline is going to be so different now. No World Trade Center! Another things that makes us New Yorkers think for a minute is that most of us likely know someone that works in the building. I know at least two. My next door neighbor is on the maintenance crew for the two towers. Amazingly he stayed home today to catch an appointment with his doctor. He was actually in the first World Trade Center bombing. Two of his friends were killed. Since then he's had a heart attack and can't really run. If he were there this time he might not have been able to breathe with all the dust. He wouldn't have been able to run. He'd likely be dead. Another friend of mine also was at home since he was on paternity leave... his wife just had a baby last thursday. My neighbor had a year until retirement. At this point, he'll likely take an early retirement. My other friend will likely need to look for a new job.
I live in Queens. I've been hearing the sirens of ambulances and fire trucks all day. It's sickening to think that they're all on their way toward the WTC. I work on 6th avenue in Manhattan, in midtown. I normally work from 10-6, and today was no exception. I also normally listen to the radio in the morning but today I got paged and had to hop on the computer and do a few things. Still have my Unix group's 24 hour on call pager from the first day I had it, which was last week waiting in line for Bjork Riverside Chapel standby tickets. I ate my breakfast and went on my way. Most of the people on the train seemed oblivious to the WTC tragedy. When I got to Queens Plaza while on the E train a few people that got on the train started talking about it. For those unfamiliar with NYC, the E train's last stop is right in the basement of the WTC. The trains stopped running for some time and we were left waiting on the train for about an hour. Finally we started walking from car to car to the front of the train, walked into another train, and yet another until we could finally get out at the 50th street station. Everyone was confused. People got off the train and were looking around, not knowing where to go or what to do. The conductor had no solutions for anyone, telling everyone that the one thing they couldn't do was use the train.
Once I emerged from the subway and onto the sidewalk there were crowds everywhere, as there normally is in NYC... but it felt different. Everyone was trying to make calls on their cell phone. No one could. There were huge lines at pay phones. Large groups of people were gathered around two cabs that were pulled over to the side of the street with their radios turned up all the way. Many people passing buy stopped to listen for awhile. I tried making a call on my cell phone unsuccessfully. I got in line at one of the payphones. Everyone was talking to everyone. Never in my life have I seen anything like this. New Yorkers are usually so busy, running to this or that. These people that are normally running around were walking slowly, talking to each other about the terrible tragedy. People that would usually pass each other on the street, off to their jobs or meetings, were all stopping to randomly talk with people. I was one of them. I only heard that a plane flew into one of the WTC towers. This was information from someone on the train that hadn't heard about the other plane crash. I just assumed it was one of those small commuter planes. Oh how wrong I was. When I spoke to the woman in the line before me she told me that there were 2 LARGE planes, one of which crashed into each tower. Both towers had collapsed. I got in line with the intention of telling my boss I was going to be late and whether or not I should go to the main office in NYC instead of hopping on a bus to Leonia, NJ (our data center). The moment I found out what actually happened I stepped out of line, took a couple breaths, and walked to my office building. Large groups of people congregated around small 2" screen televisions at delis and fruit stands. A huge crowd was standing outside of Fox News Channel's office, which had large tv's in each window.
Half of the people I knew in my building were standing outside, many of which approached me immediately to see if I knew about what had happened. I did. I spoke with them for a few minutes, all of us in shock, and then went upstairs. Almost the entire floor was in the lobby, watching the horror on tv. No one said anything. The cafeteria offered food to everyone for free. A nice gesture at such a terrible time. I ate, used the bathroom, and went back downstairs. We were told we could leave whenever we wanted. I left with someone else that lived in my area, fully prepared to WALK home. I never imagined I'd have to walk home. Everyone in the office was looking at maps when I was upstairs, wondering how they'd walk to their homes in Brooklyn and other boroughs. Luckily, someone mentioned that service leaving manhattan was gradually being restored. On the way out I saw my boss, a green card holder from mainland China. Someone that's usually so forceful and tenacious. He ran up to me... "Chris, I've got to get out of here. All these building are making me nervous." I asked him to come with my friend and I but he declined, saying he needed to stick around to speak to his boss first. As my friend and I were walking toward the subway we noticed a lot of people looking up. Not tourists mind you, native New Yorkers. Everyone was looking up. While still in shock my friend and I nervously joked about little things regarding work, often cutting ourselves off to talk more about the tragedy. The small talk about work quickly removed itself from the conversation, quickly to be replaced by more talk of the tragedy.
Then it happened. A large roaring sound... something that we normally don't pay much attention to, living in a large city and all. No one really pays attention to it. Just another sound to make up all the background noise that is NYC. My friend and I paid attention to it, as did everyone else on the street. It was a plane. Just an ordinary plane. Something we take for granted and use from time to time when we need to go certain places. Something that passes overhead in NYC with great frequency. Something that we normally don't pay any attention to. Today on that street everyone looked up toward the plane nervously.
The sound of planes is something that I normally don't notice. I don't anticipate feeling that way again for some time...
--Chris
Re:Passengers on planes (Score:4, Insightful)
I think you've seen too many movies. First of all, I believe there are generally 3-5 people piloting these jumbo jets. If a pilot had a heart attack, the copilot or the navigator would take over. Besides, I doubt an inexperienced passenger could land something like a 767.
A suicidal pilot taking a fully loaded plane down with him? How often does that happen? I'll take my chances with that one.
Fire in the cockpit? If you have a fire in the cockpit, you're in serious trouble regardless...
Separating the cokpit is a great idea. The fact is that jumbo jets today aren't designed with security in mind, and they need to be. We have crossed into a new era.
Taking the power of decision from the pilot. (Score:3, Insightful)
A scenario to consider (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, with a terrorist in charge, why wouldn't the passengers simply attack the men with knives and take them out? Simple. The terrorists tell them "We're hijacking this plane and flying it to <middle eastern location of your choice>. If nobody gets out of hand you'll all be let go/kept safe as soon as we land. But we terrorists are not afraid to die! If you resist, we will set this plane on a collision course with the ground." Furthermore, the terrorists can be as friendly as possible to the people on board to calm them.
In short, they lie to the passengers and make it sound like sitting back is the safe and reasonable thing to do. The terrorists have absolutely no reason to let the passengers know what's really going to happen to them at the end of the flight. And the passengers have very little reason to suspect it. When has this ever happened before?
My account as a high school student. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Future of Encryption (and our civil rights)? (Score:3, Insightful)
I think it's unfortunate that someone modded that as flamebait. One of the first things that popped into my head when I heard about the morning's events, was that we're gonna be trading liberty for security at an amazing rate over the next few months. This time next year you'll probably need to get fingerprinted, DNA-sampled, and background-checked before you're allowed on an airplane.
If it happens, then the terrorists won.
Whether someone flames the idea or not, it ain't flamebait.
Re:Losing close friends sucks, yes - BUT. (Score:3, Insightful)
I understand your sentiments completely. However, when the Afghanistan Talibahn (spelling?) is officially harboring terrorists, what the fuck are you supposed to do?
If they refuse to cooperate, by turning over Osama Bin Laden, then they are hindering the execution of justice.
I too, hope and pray that our retaliation harms as few innocent people as possible. However, if the Afghanistan government chooses to preserve the lives of a terrible, terrible few and, in doing so, sacrifice a great many innocent people - then there isn't much we can do.
Note: All of this depends on whether or not Bin Laden is really responsible. Which, of course, has yet to be determined.
Re:Piss on Palestine (Score:2, Insightful)
All races/religions have a few bad apples...and they usually end up spoiling the bunch.
I am neither Jewish, nor Musilum, but I do have friends from both religions...and we get along fine.
Hate sucks.
Re:People are calling 911 from within the WTC rubb (Score:3, Insightful)
Dear god.
I'm not sure if this is good or not. I hope it can help some people get saved, but I can't imagine the heart-rendering experience of listening to a man die in rubble over the phone.
Re:Remote Control Planes (Score:3, Insightful)
The solution is emergency override from a remote location for all aircraft controls. This would eliminate the threat of an airplane hijacking being any more of a danger than to the passengers.
I'd say that makes the planes into more dangerous weapons than ever. With remote control capability, an attacker doesn't even have to be on board to "hijack" it. Good luck creating a communications link that is so reliable it can be used to control a landing jet, so ubiquitous that tens of thousands of aircraft and hundreds of control towers have it, and so secure and so tightly controlled that it cannot be abused.
From Australia (Score:2, Insightful)
The scenes were horrific. The images of the buildings collapsing will stay with me the rest of my life. I alternated between CNN live, BBC World Service and ABC the rest of the night.
Our Prime Minister, John Howard, was at the Australian Embassy in Washington, D.C. at the time. He was transferred to a safe room.
Your former President Clinton was holidaying at remote Port Douglas, Queensland at the time. Security was increased and a plane provided at Cairns for him.
An Australian company recently acquired a stakehold in the World Trade Centres. Refer to
The Age [theage.com.au] and the SMH [smh.com.au]
May I say that America is the greatest country in the world? The incredible tolerance shown by Americans in the wake of the tragedy is remarkable and displays exactly why America is what it is.
Condolences to the friends and families of the victims.
Afterschock (Score:1, Insightful)
The terrorist attack on the US has been deemed the "Pearl Harbor" of the 21st century. The goal of any terrorist attack is to disrupt normal operations and daily lives of people, and in this it has succeeded like no other terrorist event in the history of mankind.
In the US federal buildings have been closed, amusement parks such as Disneyland, "the happiest place on earth", were closed, mayor sporting events have been postponed. For the first time in history of the US all commercial flights have been cancelled, shools were closed and the Salt Lake Olympic commitee headquarters were loked as well. It was impossible to make overseas telephone calls, while even MTV and the most favorite shopping channels had suspended broadcast in order to bring the newsfeed of the tragedy.
The effects of this attack were felt worldwide, commercial flights were banned over London and all Transatlantic flights from Europe have been cancelled as well. The largest Autoshow in the world held in Frankfurt, Germany has been cancelled and the world famous Munich Oktoberfest will not be held this year. France is in a highten state of security.
Financial markets around the world are tumbling down while condolences are comming in from leaders around the world and such unlikely sources such as from Mr. Arafat, Gadaffi and the Afghanistan goverment, the world is in Shock.
Besides the loss of life and destruction of property which insurance claims reach billions of dollars, it is still uncertain what the full impact of this act of barbarism will have on the world. America has been shaken and the aftershocks will be felt around the globe.
We all have seen New York destroyed many times in movies such as Godzilla and Armageddon, today it was for real, and while watching the images of the tumbling towers the mind tryies to tell you that it is just another movie and you have to remind yourself that the people jumping off the towers are for real and then your mind recoils in horror.
"September 11th, 2001, The day the earth stood still"
Fine, don't forgive.. (Score:2, Insightful)
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. My heart goes out to those who have lost loved ones, but you will not add one day to your life if you allow yourself to be consumed by bloodlust.
I've already lost one of the best friends I've ever had in life, not to mention I've had to forgive my father for horrible abuse, physical and sexual. I know a thing about pain and suffering, and I know the one thing that heals it is forgiveness alone. It is the beast, the natural reflex of the animal to strike back. It is the Man, ruled by mind and not by instinct, that forgives.
An unwarranted assumption. (Score:3, Insightful)
That assumes collapsing the building was the intent.
Another possibility is that they wanted to destroy a significant section of the building, its personnel, and/or its equipment and files by fire, and that a partial or total building collapse, if it were to occur, would be an "added bonus".
A fully-fuled airline could be expected to produce a several-story fire barrier, killing the people at the affected floors and blocking most of those above it from escape, as the fire and its heat and gasses worked upward, above the level where effective action could be taken against it.
You'll note that the first plane struck quite high. This is not consistent with deliberately attempting to collapse the building.
It might be interesting to identify what offices were at or above the levels of impact on each of the towers. (Though that would assume the planes hit at the levels that were intended.)
Regardless of whether it went down as intended, it certainly succeeded. Both towers and the adjacent "building 7" were destroyed totally. While the timing of the strikes let a lot of people be evacuated, it also trapped and killed a lot of fire, police, and medical personnel.
I understand that despite the cutoff of gas and electric to the affected section of Manhattan there is (or was) one large hotel on fire, and a large chunk of the fire department (including its top three officials) were killed in the collapse of the towers, along with a lot of equipment buried. So there might still be a "South Manhattan Fire" taking out the rest of the financial district.
Re:This was a sophisticated attack. (Score:3, Insightful)
I think that Free Republic post is giving the bad guys too much credit. It seems much more likely to me that they simply decided "lets cause as much damage as possible to the WTC... I think planes will be our best bet." But doing calculations for an implosion? I doubt it.
I was amazed that the towers didn't go right over. When the second plane hit the tower didn't seem to move an inch. Remarkable that they stood for as long as they did.
Re:level heads (Score:2, Insightful)
It means that sometime, somewhere some people cheered and waved a Palestinian flag. That is all it means. Ever heard of "stock footage"?
Even if it was not stock footage, how the hell do you know what they were cheering at? I doubt they had the same news access you did. You normally believe everything the media shows you, right?
The laws of Physics are against this. (Score:3, Insightful)
These people should be nuked back to the stone age...
The laws of Physics are against this. Nuclear bombs work on cities. In the countryside, a 100 Megaton bomb does surprisingly little damage. The damage spreads only about 15 miles from the center of the blast.
In the mountains, as in Afghanistan, the energy of a nuclear blast would be deflected upward.
Nuclear blasts also make all the air everyone breathes radioactive. Thus everyone is punished, even people who haven't been born yet.
"These are not people, they are animals, and should be treated as such."
The U.S. killed 2,100,000 people in Vietnam and maybe 150,000 people in Iraq. The U.S. has bombed 14 countries in 30 years, killing a roughly estimated 3,000,000 people. None of the people who were killed were in any way directly threatening the U.S.
Does that make us animals?
Re:erm.... kill who exaclty? (Score:2, Insightful)
Keep in mind I'm about an hour from NYC; a few months ago I was working in that neighborhood. I have friends there, and I would glady see the whole Taliban extinct than see any of them hurt.
I think the terrorists are going to find this was a mistake.
You do not know who did this. Killing innocents is what the evil people that perpetrated this act did. Killing innocents in revenge would:
1) make you as evil as them
2) make the country subject to more attacks
Instead, kill the people that you know who did this, not just people who look different and have different customs that you do not understand.
Drinking doesn't help, I know from many experiences.
thenerd.
Re:lost a friend (Score:2, Insightful)
"Fucking barbarians" are people who bomb or launch large cyclindrical explosive metal objects at innocent citizens of those whom they consider to be their enemy. Now how, exactly, do you want the US to 'retaliate'?
I don't know about forgiveness, but you could just apply the law to this situation - that's what it is there for. Lockerbie bombers - in jail, Milosevis and other mass murderers - in jail or awaiting trial.
I seem to be making a habit of quoting the Declaration of Human Rights here recently, but it seems particularly appropriate here:
That doesn't just mean citizens of the West or anyone you happen to think worthy of it. For it to mean anything it has to apply to everybody - yes, including the people whose rights were ripped from them yesterday, and yes including those behind the act.Re:German Impressions, and thinking about Who, Why (Score:2, Insightful)
However, my point is that at least honestly trying to keep automatic weapons out of the hands of children in third world countries instead of selling gun manufacturing plants on loan to everybody and his brother might be one step to save a few lifes in a third world country, which in turn, may lead to less terror in maybe 20 or 30 years from now.
A recipe against Governments murdering their own citizens is to get their responsible leader's and lock them up in a prison forever, and not to let them in power like Saddam Hussein for the sake of balancing power in the region and play games with them for a decade.
An international law and international courts IMHO is the best solution for that; however, the U.S. is the most important political opponent against such a solution and has even threated the international court to free U.S. citizens using its military if they would be tried. This U.S. "we are above international law, we are the international law" - attitude is probably today's largest obstacle to fight crime committed by people acting on behalf of governments.
Instead, the U.S. tries to be the Lawmaker, the Judge and the Police in one person, which alone is not a good idea. And keeping over 90% of the world population from participating in making these laws, and a not very nice track record of the U.S. as international citizen might explain the distrust in this self appointment even more.
p.
America had this coming (Score:3, Insightful)
1) America now lists Osama Bin Laden in its most wanted list. However in the 70s the US ACTUALLY supplied him and his men with weapons - helicopters, Stinger missiles etc. At that time he was fighting the former USSR occupation of Afghanistan. In fact he was considered to be a friend of the US. In order to fulfil short-terms goals the US always arms merceneries in different parts of the world. Then it has no right to complain if the same nuts turn against it.
2) Lets face it! Israel treatment of the Palestinians is totally unfair. It has occupied territories which belong to them. When the Palestinians rebel the Israelis use Tanks, gunships etc to mercilessly slaughter them.(In case your wondering, No I'm not Arab)
But America continues to support the Israelis. Even in the negotiations America tends to side with Israel. In such a scenario its natural for Arabs to be frustrated with the United States and resort to things like this.
Maybe the American government should re-evalute its own policy before passing judgement on the Intifada
Re:German Impressions (one to talk) (Score:2, Insightful)
Fortunately this did not happen to me, but last year my father was killed by a psycho. A man climbed over the fence of his garden when he was ouside and started to shoot at him with a silenced gun. Fortunenately my father managed to get into the house and lock the door before he died mortally wounded with several hits in his chest, of which one penetrated his heart. The killer continued shooting through the looked door and through a window in order to kill my father's wife, who has closely witnessed the scene through the open, but lattice-secured window. She survived unharmed, but it's hard to describe and imagine the horror she went throught the last year after this event.
After a few months a suspect was arrested, who has yet to stand trial. The motiv is still unknown, however there is enough evidence for a 95% probability that this guy did it.
I had been thinking a lot about what I might do, of course I thought of revenge, and imagined how it would be to kill this guy, and what would be an appropriate punishment or treatment for such a person, and I imagined a lot of really bad things to do with guy.
However, the first thing that became clear to me was that by killing this guy myself I would become a murderer. Don't take me wrong, I wouldn't hesitate to kill in self defense or to stop someone who is trying to kill, but to kill someone if you don't have to is just plain murder.
I dont want to be a murderer; do you ?
I also thought about what punishment I would prefer for guy:
locked up for 20 years
life sentence
the death penalty.
I ended up with prefering 20 years or life, to give this guy the opportunity to think about what he has done for a long time, and of course to keep him away from society.
Nobody deserves to suffer from killing this guy; have you ever thought about what the executioners go through ?
And what damage it does to someones soul (emotional life) if he has to kill someone slow and intentionally ? How about the right of "Pursuit of Happiness" of the executioner ?
Regarding the "free room and board" I think that a country like the U.S. might easily afford that, and that the costs of an execution are probably much higher, in terms of money, and in terms of many human and social values.
I have seen and talked to people who served a 20 year sentence, and I did not fear any of them; they were just a shade of what they must have been 20 years before; and I talked to professionals working in judiciary, and they said that after 6 or 7 years in prison almost everyone starts to crack; there are very few that are either so strong or so sick that they are still dangerous after 20 years.
The real "punishment" component of the death penalty as practiced in the U.S. seems to be time in the death cell where the people are intentionally kept in the fear of beeing executed every single day by performing a kind of preparation ritual.
In case of terrorist who want to die you even reward these people, transforming them into immortal martyrs if you send them to your "hell", which is their heaven. You just get yourself a bit closer to hell.
p.