FiveFingerDiscount.com? 418
phillippaxton writes: "According to this link, dot-bomb victims are creating their own severance packages, no doubt walking away with the typical office tchotchkes (staplers, tape dispensers, etc.) but also big ticket items such as plush furniture, copiers, high-powered network servers, etc. One anecdote cites someone who lifted $445,549 of equipment, then tried to sell it on eBay as a company liquidating their assets." On the other hand, the fact that it's illegal to stiff your employees out of wages due them, even in a bankruptcy, isn't mentioned in the article...
Lawyer: not quite (Score:4, Informative)
>On the other hand, the fact that it's illegal to stiff
>your employees out of wages due them, even in a bankruptcy, isn't
>mentioned in the article...
Uhh, no. That's not the law. There is certainly a breach of contract when an employee does not get paid, but in the absence of prior intent not to pay, it's generally not a crime.
IN bankruptcy, it's a special set of rules. Employee wages up to a fixed amount (I forget the current number) are a priority claim; they get paid before the regular debts (but only to that amount). One of two things happen: 1) they all get paid, or 2) the "self help" took away assets that would have been used to pay all employees.
Walking off with the expensive stuff could solve the former employee's food and housing nees for a couple of years, though . . .
hawk, esq.
Re:Lawyer: not quite (Score:3, Informative)
>state though. So you may both be correct- just not for the same place.
>(IANAL)
Bankruptcy is federal.
The criminal aspect of state law will not very all that much among states (you really couldn't cross the intent line I draw above and pass constitutional muster . .
hawk, esq.
When I got laid off... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Getting wages owed you (Score:2, Informative)
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as I understood it companies are structured to protect the shareholders and executives from the creditors of the company
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This is not true. The personal assets of the executives are protected unless they were used as collateral to secure loans. Shareholders get no protection - their entire investment is at risk. Creditors get paid first, then owners. Often a bank will put in executive compensation restrictions when making a small business loan specifically to prevent an owner from bleeding a company dry. If the company goes into bankrupcy court and you are an employee that gets paid AFTER working (you are in the "wages payable" ballance sheet item), you should be entitled to the same "pennies on the dollar" that the other creditors get.
somebody I know did this, an "acquaintance" (Score:2, Informative)
Over the next few days, rounds of email were sent requesting back expenses, requesting back pay, then requesting a simple reply. None were forthcoming. One of the techs finally postulated that if the pres couldn't reply, the tech couldn't work. If the tech couldn't be paid, he would accept the tools in his possession in leiu of a paycheck and move on to another job. The pres NEVER even answered. The whole thing just defaulted away.
I wouldn't guess how "legal" it was. Weeks of work without pay, weeks of expenses without reimbursement. A peaceable solution proposed by the employee and never answered by the boss. It was just ugly. No, "sad" is a better word. That money never did come in. Sucked to be those guys.
--
-j
Re:Unusual item for sale ... (Score:4, Informative)
If you ain't got paid... (Score:1, Informative)
Employees across the country are feeling disenfranchised
Gee, I wonder why? My former Employer, Type T [typetzone.com], found it acceptable to use our 401k money to cover payroll and other expenses. After we noticed that our 401k's had far less than we contributed we approched our CEO's about the issue and were told that it was indeed true, but it would be paid back. RIIIGHT. After seeing this go on for several months, we had 2 paychecks develierved late of which several bounced. The third was never delivered. To date no one has received their last paycheck, 401k money, vacation pay and expenses.
For folks at CNET to think that it's "our fault" we were laid off have some real issues to deal with. Keep in mind that if anyone of us had quit and had still had company equipment in our possession, our pay would be withheld until the equipment was retunred. If it was not retunred you can bet you would never get paid. According to CNET, the opposite is illeagal and wrong. PLEASE!
Until people companies can stop screwing the people who worked until 3a.m. for three months on a high profile client so the bossman can drive a mercedes and have a nice home, this shit is not wrong!
Re:Getting wages owed you (Score:5, Informative)
1) Employees get paid first. Period. If the company does not have the cash to cover payroll, they are in big trouble.
2) Creditors get paid second, usually in order of size or importance. This means that the bank gets their money and contractors get their take after the bank.
3) VC's get whatever is left (if anything). They put their money at risk, they knew the risk, and they stood the most to gain.
Now, in some states (I'm in colorado), if the employer does not pay in 15 days or so, you can send them a nice little form letter (available at the colorado department of labor's website) that basically says that if they dont pay in 15 days that they owe you triple.
Now, here is the real kicker: if they still dont pay, you can go after the company and then select officers of the company and the (yes, the ceo himself and usually the head of the board of trustees). Like I mentioned before, they are required to be able to meet payroll, and if they can't, They must lay you off before they run out of money, not after.
Anyway, that is the way it worked in my case. IANAL, but I play one on slashdot.
Re:Not paying during bankruptcy not :"illegal" (Score:2, Informative)
Employees are usually considered unsecured creditors as far as the US Bankruptcy Code is concerened. They get paid with whatever money is left after secured creditors (banks, suppliers, CEO's Golden Parachute, etc.) are paid. Holding company assets as "hostage" will just get a person thrown in jail for theft.
I've known several people who were never paid their final check after being canned when their company filed Chapter 7. They had no recourse whatsoever as it wasn't enough to sue the company over (which they couldn't do anyway while the company was in bankruptcy court). All they could do is file a claim with the court and pray.
This was in Arizona, which has few labor laws of its own (it is a right-to-work state that follows federal laws only reluctantly due to our anti-Federal-gummint attitude here). Other states may be different so you have to check your own laws.
IANAL either.
Re:Getting wages owed you (Score:2, Informative)
0) The IRS gets their cut and any back taxes, no exceptions. Anything left over then gets split up among the various creditors.
This is true for all 50 states and any territories.
Re:The nerve of these geeks... (Score:2, Informative)
Yet, they'd convinced the owners and staff for considrable time that they were a great company with a future. When I tried pointing out Envision's problems and Evans' background to friends of mine at PureEdge, I was viewed as someone with an axe to grind against *both* companies (when all I wanted to do was to sound the klaxons -- last thing I want is to see my friends out of work).
The guy has both fraud and securities fraud convictions on his record. He's bad news. I don't blame you, even a little bit, for taking what you could.
bankrupt is the best description of its own laws (Score:1, Informative)
Your company and its inferious selection of goods and services is soon to go under. You and your executive suit buddies are sad but apathetic in a way. After all, since you are executives, you have ALWAYS seen great profit and income, through whatever ups and downs that caused multi-hundred to thousand layoffs, increase in prices, reduction in quality, etc. In fact (if you are an IT firm) you probably already layed off most of the engineers and techs, while keeping the army of bureaucrats and other suits (each with their staffs) on overhead. Now that the time has come for the company to disolve you now are worried about how big and nice your severance packages will be. Screw many of the employees that have worked for 10 years or more and wont be getting the money due them (salary) at the very least not in a timely manner, forget the workers that will loose their retirement and 401k's, slap down any workers that gave their all, and will now be left in the dirt. Who cares about them? You are the 'Mighty Executive' (TM). Your ability to do nothing productive at all except absorb money and resources, while actually preventing inovation and progress has only been exceeded by your salary, stock options and fringe benefits.
Your stock options will be liquidated and added to your cush severance package soon, so who worries? But can't you do more? Sure you can! How about you buy cars, furniture, maybe real estate, computers, travel, etc in a mad shopping spree frenzy for you and your executive suit buddies, so that when the final date set by the court comes, you will NEVER be bothered about paying that back. Screw the fact that if you already are in the process of going down, that you shoulD NEVER have been allowed to purchase more. Screw the fact that your lenders and providers just have to suck it up. So what if your 'company' will never see the light of day again... you can just get together with your suit buddies later and have a different name. Thanks to the fact that individuals are held responsible for their debts, but not decision making individuals in the company (your suit buddies) you are a happy and toy loaded individual. Hell, now to think about it, it is GREAT that your company went under!
These things happen btw. They happen ALL THE TIME. And it is not a 'evil corporate' thing, rather it is a 'corrupt and traitrously inconsistent government and its policies' thing. I know of way to many ethical people who's businesses have been shut down simply because they expected payment to be received for services rendered.
Like with car accidents caused by some swerving wreckless uninsured scumbag. You and your insurance has to foot the bill, simply because he/she 'couldn't afford to pay'. That happens, I understand that very well, but what about the fact that they still are allowed to drive? What about putting them to work to pay it off? Screw me, the victim. I am unimportant. Me and my concerned for all, (not just me), good driving self are irrellevant compared to Mr. You owe me, idiot swerving no signaling driver.
I have NEVER worked 80 hours.... (Score:2, Informative)
You have to lay out the rules in the begining.
I am now a director of technology, and I am Task oriented. If you have a specific task to do, and you're done for the day, go home! Why sit there and use the company's bandwidth? I don't believe in the "asses and elbows" method. At my company, we are ALL professionals, we all know what we have to do. Our Cisco guy only comes in when he has specific tasks to do when his physical presence is required. The rest of the time he's at home working remotely. Why have him sit in his cubicle for 8 hours? It never made sense to me. He's paid for his knowledge and technical expertise and for ALWAYS saving our ass. Some of our programmers prefer to work at the office. They say home has too many distractions. That's fine. I say "Only you know how you work best". I never care how a task is done. You can go home and pay your COUSIN to do the work. As long as I get the final product..I'm happy. Isn't that what it's all about? Results? That's why I have the best team. Everyone's happy. Sick days and personal days are just "symbols". There is no set schedule. 85% of our programmers work at 4 AM. Why make them bend to the 8:30-5:30 way of life when they are not as productive? As long as MY superiors see the results they want, they couldn't care less. EVERY company should work this way. You'll have happy, more productive professionals. Not burned out card punchers.
Witholding wages is a CRIME. (Score:2, Informative)
It seemed natural that I should just hold onto the equipment untill I got paid, or just sell it on eBay to recover lost income.
But then I mentioned this to a labor layer and he pointed out that witholding wages in the state of New York is prosecuted as misdemeanor punishable by a fine of up to $20,000.00 with a possibility of jail time!
You can also be awarded triple damages for witheld income.
So I sent back the equipment as quickly as possible and called the New York state attourney general, they were more than happy to help me.
for the New York AG check out:
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/contact/addresses.ht
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/workplace/employer.h
New York City
120 Broadway
New York, New York 10271
(212) 416-8000
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