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Television Media

More on the Replay TV 4000 178

Posted by CmdrTaco from the oh-thats-so-yummy dept.
boskone noted that Replay TV's site has updated with a variety of new information that will definitely allow the Tivo/Replay flamewars to escalate. Besides the networking capability we mentioned earlier (send shows to friends, or to other Replay's on your home LAN), and the gigantic 320 hour maximum storage capacity, there are more detailed specicifcations. Also notable is the progressive video output port, and the fact that it actually requires ethernet, but doesn't require a subscription! I'd love to try one of these buggers out when they ship.
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More on the Replay TV 4000 More

More on the Replay TV 4000

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  • Any chances this might improve the chances of local lans popping up all around cities?

  • subscription (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Sc00ter ( 99550 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @12:56PM (#2364387) Homepage
    "the fact that it actually requires ethernet, but doesn't require a subscription!"



    Part of the reason early replayTV units were almost twice as much as the same recording capacity was because the subscription price was included.. You do pay for it.

    • Autoskip with no commericals and Quickskip with 30 seconds! I was going to pick up a tivo, but noticed they removed these features. Guess maybe I need to think about a Replay.
      • I don't understand that, with Tivo, when you fast forward you just go thru the commercials, as soon as you see the show, you hit play, it jumps back a few seconds and BAM, you don't miss any of the show. I think that's far better then 30sec skip, because with that you could accidently skip into the show..

        • Re:subscription (Score:3, Informative)

          by stripes ( 3681 )
          I don't understand that, with Tivo, when you fast forward you just go thru the commercials, as soon as you see the show, you hit play, it jumps back a few seconds and BAM, you don't miss any of the show. I think that's far better then 30sec skip, because with that you could accidently skip into the show..

          They are around the same. The people that have both TiVo and replay tend to like the 30sec skip a little better, but not all of them do. After you skip the right number of times you normally have to back up a little bit, so it is about as much fiddling with buttons as TiVo, and just slightly less time.

          The upside is on the TiVo if you see a commercial you think is interesting you can watch it (at 60x FF the commercial is half a second to a second long, so don't blink!)

          Replay's skips are more useful to move around in a TV show, like if you watched about half of it, and then your wife watched the rest, you have to FF for 30 seconds on the TiVo, the reply you can hit a few buttons. Apparently TiVo's 2.5 software will let you skip to the 15min tick marks, so that is less of an issue.

          FYI, there is a backdoor code on TiVo's with pre-2.0.1 software, and I've been told 2.5 software to change the "skip to end" button into a 30 second skip.

          The only compelling Replay feature (to me) is moving shows from unit to unit. Everything else you can either do (frequently with hacking!) to a TiVo, or just isn't that interesting to me. To be honest you can even currently move shows from one TiVo to another after you hack it, but I'm not expecting that to last :-(

          However other people have other priorities, and may be better suited with a Replay. One thing's for sure though, if you watch TV, you really ought to own one of these things. Like now. I'm sorry I waited so long to buy mine (even with the price drop, and larger drives)!

      • Re:subscription (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Syberghost ( 10557 ) <syberghost@@@syberghost...com> on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:12PM (#2364485)
        Don't be so quick to jump on the "no commercials" idea.

        The broadcast networks can only afford to be free if they have income, and if enough people start skipping the commercials, they'll have to do something about it.

        So unless you wanna pay a monthly fee for access to the networks and your local stations, you better hope Autoskip stays a niche product.

        • I DO... (Score:3, Insightful)

          by BillyGoatThree ( 324006 )
          ...pay a monthly fee for access to the networks and local stations. They come over my cable channel and I can't get them any other way. Plus I note that there are still commercials on channels like Comedy Central. So here I am, paying to watch commercials. How dumb is that?

          • Re:I DO... (Score:2, Insightful)

            by krugdm ( 322700 )
            Um, no... You are paying a monthly fee to your cable/sat provider for the line going to your house, the maintenance of lines between their office and your hookup, and their big dishes to get the programming to feed to you in the first place. The commercials you watch pay for the programming that you view. Unless of course you are getting a premium channel that you pay extra for, such as HBO, then you are paying extra for the priveledge of not having to watch any commercials. This is akin to saying "I'm already paying a monthly fee for my internet access. Why should I have to view ads on websites? All those companies should make all that content available absolutely free even if they have to lose money in doing so." If advertisers realize that no one is watching their ads, then they'll stop paying premium prices for airtime. Less cash flowing in means that some new shows may never get the funding to see the light of day. Shows that may have eventually done well on their own.
            • Less cash flowing in means that some new shows may never get the funding to see the light of day.

              And it should be pointed out that when cash is tight, shows that are cheap to produce and have a broad audience get made, and shows that are expensive to produce or have a niche audience don't.

              So if you want to see Farscape, Dark Angel, Buffy, and Enterprise replaced by sitcoms, by all means get rid of the ads.
        • TANSTAAFL.


          Somewhere, we or someone else is paying for the commercials - usually, in the price of products. And commercials don't add value (in advertising, the market is the product, the producer is the consumer. Weird, isn't it?)

          Without commercials, we would have to pay for content - using the money that we have saved by not having to pay 20 to 40 percent more for products to cover the cost of their ad campaigns. I can live with that.

          • Re:Commercials. (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Syberghost ( 10557 )
            Without commercials, we would have to pay for content - using the money that we have saved by not having to pay 20 to 40 percent more for products to cover the cost of their ad campaigns. I can live with that.


            Wrong. The companies will still pay for advertising, just in other media, since TV will lose it effectiveness.

            So you'll pay just as much for the products, AND pay for your TV besides.

            It's not a zero-sum game, you'll be creating new income for radio and print.
            • No. The value of advertising on radio relies on the number of listeners per dollar that they get. Because advertisers only advertise because their *competitors* advertise in a media - the threat of losing market share obliges them to do so. Advertising budgets aren't fixed - if producers don't have to forfend the competition for attention in a media, they'll invest those costs elsewhere (like lowering prices or developing new products.)
          • > pay for content - using the money that we have saved by not having to pay 20 to 40 percent more for producs

            Yeah, but how much of that 20-40 percent do you expect would actually come back to you in the price? I bet about 10, maybe 15 percent. The rest would pump up cash reserves, or stock dividends ("look Ma, I'm getting 59 cents per share instead of 58! Woo-hoo!")

            Jim
            • At least then it would be reinvested into a *productive* sector of the economy. Advertising money is just spent getting people to produce advertisement. Those cash savings would recirculate to hire people to do things like build housing, teach children, and make lattes.

              I think of advertising as the junk-food of the economy. Empty calories, no nutritional value. Except it doesn't even taste good. Like 8 month old Skittles that you find in your sofa.

            • I pay 32.50 bucks a month for cable. Now, if 1) got 15% back on everything I spend, that would be alot of money. if its only on advertised products, there still wouldnt be much difference, but lets just limit it to gas, food, and entertainment, insurrance. 150 bucks a month(hey I drive a pickup). That comes to 22.50 a month more. now that leaves me 55 bucks a month to spend on cable. Now say I pay 5 dollars a channel, that I really want. That means I could get good shit only(no MTV, QVC, CNN but VH1, M2, TLC, HIST, TNT, UPN, Dicovery, and SciFi, and a couple for my fiance). sounds like a great plan to me!
          • This is a tad off-topic, but I suppose I'm not the only one wondering what TANSTAAFL stands for. I can really recommend Atomica [atomica.com] (formerly known as Gurunet). It's a small application running in the background. When you see a word/acronym/term/country/anything as text, you just alt-click on it, and an un-bloated window pops up with the meaing/translation/explanation immediatly. What is so cool about this program is that you can click on any text anywhere (except for on pics) - in your email client, browser, text editor. I use it a lot to get more info about some piece of news I read.

            Btw, I alt-clicked on TANSTAAFL and Atomica gave me:

            "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

            Could have figured that one out... doh.

            (Sorry, just for Windows and palm)

            • > This is a tad off-topic, but I suppose I'm not the only one wondering what TANSTAAFL stands for.

              TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, came from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein.

              • The acronym may have come from Heinlein, but the saying has been around a lot longer. Bars used to offer a free lunch, but in reality, the price you paid for beers covered the food price as well as the real beer price.

        • Re:subscription (Score:4, Informative)

          by Zaknafein500 ( 303608 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:37PM (#2364604) Homepage
          Also, FWIW, the 2.5 version of the TiVo software includes a backdoor to enable 30 second skip. Check out the AVS Forum [avsforum.com] and I'm sure you'll be able to find it. Almost all DirecTiVos have been updated to 2.5, so they have this feature right now. Stand alone TiVos won't see 2.5 until about January ufortunately due to some delays with VBR encoding.

          Also, what about dual tuners? Having a second tuner is invaluable, as it allows you to record two shows at once. So far, I haven't seen any mention of dual tuners on the RP4000. DirecTiVos have this ability right now.

          I'm not even convinced that Sonicblue can pull off the features they are promising. The "Send Show to Other RPTV User" has so many copyright issues I won't even get into it. Plus, who really wants to spend at minimum $700 on a RPTV when you can find DirecTiVos for as little at $129 with new DirecTV service. Add in the $250 TiVo lifetime sub, and you're still about $300 ahead. Hack your box, and you can have over 120 hours of recording time, and still be underneath the cost for the base RPTV 4000 model.

          I'll stick with my TiVo. UTV came along with big promises, and has largely failed. Replay won't have me convinced until they actually get the thing working with all the features functional.
          • I wonder when TiVO will be bought out by some one like sony......it is just a matter of time you know.
          • Plus, who really wants to spend at minimum $700 on a RPTV when you can find DirecTiVos for as little at $129 with new DirecTV service.

            The average person doesn't have or want DirectTV, and doesn't want to hack his box.

            I'm not getting one of these either, but you and I are not normal.
          • >the 2.5 version of the TiVo software includes a backdoor to enable 30 second skip

            I took a look in the AVS Forum as you suggested (I got all excited thinking this feature was actually still available). I did find mention of this, but not with near the certainty that you expressed:

            According to those whom attended the NY soiree, the word that RB used was that :30 skip "may" make it into 2.5 as a backdoor code! There is no certainty of this happening AFAWK.
            • It's there. Check out this [avsforum.com] thread for the combo.

        • This argument makes no sense.

          You're right to say the networks would be upset if lots of people started skipping commercials, and that something would have to give.

          But the idea that people should voluntarily refrain from skipping commercials is unrealistic, just as it would be unrealistic to ask people not to go to the bathroom during commercial breaks.

          The technology exists. People are going to use it. It might be bad for everyone if such technology became popular, but arguing that I shouldn't skip commercials for the good of everyone doesn't make sense to me.

      • Actually, I hear the Quickskip/30 seconds returns for v2.5 of the Tivo software....2.5 is already available on DTivos
      • Autoskip with no commericals and Quickskip with 30 seconds! I was going to pick up a tivo, but noticed they removed these features. Guess maybe I need to think about a Replay.

        These were not removed - TiVo never had these features (not officially anyway - I think there may have been a hack that let you get the Quickskip functionality, but it was never officially part of the product). TiVo has kept the TV networks in mind from the start, which makes long term sense because without the networks to provide content a TiVo isn't very useful. A lot of networks have actually invested in TiVo as well, probably so that they have a voice in things when features like Autoskip or Quickskip are under consideration.

        Personally, I don't think that the five seconds it takes to fast forward through commercials is such a big deal, but I could be understimating how useful Autoskip and Quickskip would be. I know I grossly understimated how useful the whole TiVo service would be when I first got it.

  • Prices start at $700 for a 40 hour unit and max out at $2000 for a 320 hour unit. -- According to their site. --- A bit pricier than a TiVo, but these obviously have more features aswell.

    TiVo = 299 + 10/month.
  • If you need to have an ethernet connection, then you should be able to watch shows on your computer. It says you can do it between replays, but personally, my monitor is bigger and of better quality than my tv.

  • The specs are killer. Now if we could just get the cable company to send out the guide channel in machine-readable format, I'd be all set. As soon as the price has settled into my range . . .

    1Alpha7

    • If it's ReplayTV, the purchase price includes the channel guide service (you dial in to it) in perpetuity.
    • TV Guide [tvguide.com] already lets you download the guide in a machine-readable format.
      It's being used for a few PDA-based TV Guide listers such as PTVL (Pocket TV Listing)
      • Seems to be just HTML though, with potentially constantly changing formatting, throwing any parsers off. This would seem to be an ideal application of web services: provide a web service that takes region/provider/date range input and returns standarised listing data, maybe using some generic XML TV listing markup language or a standard database table format.
  • Sending things to friends...
    wow...as for fair use...as long as you aren't charging for the viewing you can tape and let friends watch...nothing wrong with that...

    As for ethernet requirement...
    umm...what's this going to do to bandwidth say if I'm on a cable or dsl connection, and my neighbor is also on that cable segment for instance and "sends" something to his friend in alabama...
    does this mean I get bogged down big time? Hope not...

    • "As for ethernet requirement...
      umm...what's this going to do to bandwidth say if I'm on a cable or dsl connection, and my neighbor is also on that cable segment for instance and "sends" something to his friend in alabama...
      does this mean I get bogged down big time? Hope not...      "



      Why would that be any different then if your neighbor was downloading linux ISOs or other large files.. it's shouldn't be an issue..

  • I thought progressive output for compressed NTSC would be pretty silly, till I saw it was actually a VGA connector [replaytv.com]
    Cool!

  • The _real_ cost (Score:2, Insightful)

    by parc ( 25467 )
    Sure, the Replay doesn't have a subscription requirement. But how much you wanna bet there's going to be more intrusive information sent up that ethernet connection about your viewing habits?
    • TiVo doesn't have a subscription cost either if you choose to pay the 'lifetime subscription' free (which, oddly enough, brings the total cost of the TiVo unit up to almost exactly the cost of a 'subscription free' ReplayTV).

      Do you suppose that when you pay the 'lifetime subscription' fee TiVo turns on the top-secret anal-probe privacy-invading feature on your box?

      Because apparently you believe there are only two possible business models: monthly payments or screwing your customers while hoping they don't find out.

      Skepticism is good. Paranioa is bad. Grow clue.

  • Yeah, TIVO is in trouble now (sarcastic) (Score:4, Funny)

    by hoggoth ( 414195 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:03PM (#2364420) Journal
    I don't think they have the engineering resources to figure out how to install a bigger hard drive and an ethernet card.

    • TiVoNet [9thtee.com]

      More Space for your TiVo [9thtee.com]



      But I would suggest adding more space yourself, probably more cost effective.

      • It is about the software. I've got an ethernet card in my TiVo right now. But I don't have any compelling software for it. I can't share video with other TiVo users without going through extreme measures. In all, the Ethernet on the TiVo is great for toys like a web server, or doing stuff from the shell prompt.

        That's why ReplayTV is better than a TiVo with an ethernet hack. ReplayTV embraces the network connection. TiVo, unfortunately, is too in-bed with corporate sponsors. Here's hoping they change.
        • > In all, the Ethernet on the TiVo is great for toys like a web server, or doing stuff from the
          > shell prompt.

          How about pulling shows down to you PC and burning them onto VCD or even DVD? Not compelling enough for ya? Once on VCD, they're a heck of a lot easier to share with friends than transferring mammoth video files over slow internet connections. How many of your friends have DVD players versus TiVos/ReplayTVs and T1 lines?

  • And I'm still using a VCR that has to be specially set to use cable every time the power blinks.... Thank god I don't live in Cali.

    Never overestimate the intelligence of the individual, and never underestimate the stupidity of the masses.

  • When are these things going to work in Canada? I know TiVo doesn't work here yet, but I'd love to have one.
    • Bell ExpressVu just started advertising their PVR/Dish combo. Not much info here, but I've seen the commercials: http://www.expressvu.com/EN/home.asp
  • Standard broadcast tv is low resolution and interlaced. Putting progressive component ports on this thing implies display of something higher quality.

    Hopefully it can be made to support recording of 1080i (1920x1080) or 720p (1280x720) High Definition TV.

    With the interfaces they have listed, the only way this could be done is if the tuner supports ATSC (Digital television). This is doubtful... maybe next version.
    • Standard broadcast tv is low resolution and interlaced. Putting progressive component ports on this thing implies display of something higher quality.
      They could be doing on-the-fly deinterlacing, either in recording or (more likely) on playback. Some of the bigger TVs already do this...mainly HD monitors, IIRC (sometimes, they also throw in line doubling as an added bonus).

      Inverse 3:2 pulldown would also be cool (it would enable higher-quality recording as your framerate falls from 29.97 to 23.976 while your bitrate stays the same), but I don't know how you could detect whether you should attempt it. It would only work for stuff that originated on film...stuff that never hits film, like news, sports, and soaps, would be screwed up if you applied inverse 3:2 pulldown to it.

  • Open standards... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by swordboy ( 472941 )
    What we need is an open standard for digital entertainment. Something that everyone can agree upon (consumers, manufacturers, advertisers, etc). It would be nice if I could buy one box and then have the option to hook it up to the cableco or my particular satellite provider. You could then hack in a hard drive for the PVR features and possibly add gaming functionality. Bahhh.... The possibilities are endless but the only company smart enough to put something like this together isn't going to make it "open".
    • One word: HAVi [havi.org].

      Apparently I must add more spew here in order to pass the postercomment compression filter. I hope you have enjoyed reading it every bit as much as I have enjoyed writing it.

  • At what price is it worth it? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Refried Beans ( 70083 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:08PM (#2364464) Homepage
    Take a look at the pre-order form:

    RTV4320 ( Approx. 320 hours of recording time) $ 1,999 *
    RTV4160 ( Approx. 160 hours of recording time) $ 1,499 *
    RTV4080 ( Approx. 80 hours of recording time) $ 999 *
    RTV4040 ( Approx. 40 hours of recording time) $ 699 *
    * Plus applicable tax & shipping charges.
    Estimated shipping costs within Continental US are:
    $25 3-5 business days, $35 economy 2 day, $45 next day

    TiVo prices:

    Philips HDR 212 20 $199
    Philips HDR 312 30 $299
    Philips HDR 612 60 $599

    I love my TiVo, even if I did pay $400 for it a year ago. $10 a month is pretty cheap. $100 a year isn't too bad either. I loved mine so much I paid the lifetime fee.
    • I would be a lot happier with my TiVo if it didn't flake out so much.

      Sometimes it doesn't record sound, records only a few seconds of a show, etc.

    • Or you can get the upcomimg dual tuner DishNetwork PTV 721, which has 70 hours, and the ability to record two shows at once.

      The PTV 501 had some problems, but from what I've read tht 721 should be feature competitive with TiVO and ReplayTV. It also is going to be an Interactive TV box with games and the like, if you go for that, and reportedly the ability to burn CD's. (Music)

      So replay can record up to 320 hours. Big deal, It'll take 320 hours to do it too. This thing can record 70 hours in 35.

      Best thing is this thing is preordering for $499 with no commitments to Dish programming (which kicks DTV's ass, BTW), or montly access charges. I was going to break down and get a TiVO, but a dual tuner PVR for under 500 bucks... Can't beat that. I just hope it gets here before football season is over.

  • One FAQ, I'd like to see answered (Score:4, Interesting)

    by eam ( 192101 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:18PM (#2364522)
    I read the FAQ on their site, but there was one important question that went unanswered:

    If I buy a Replay4000, and Replay goes under, will I still be able to use it, or will it go dead when it can't get schedule updates from the Replay server?
    • Actually, another question just occured to me:

      Will it work behind my IP Masquerading Linux box - Adelphia has only allowed me 1 IP address...Maybe now that Comcast bought my cable they'll give me a few more...
    • It'll go mostly dead (you can use it as a dumb VCR, basically), which is why I'm not buying one.

      Besides, it's stupid to have to use a second source for program information when my digital cable already has that functionality in it. Anyone know if Time-Warner Cable plans to integrate TiVo-esque functionality into their digital cable boxes soon?
    • What I would like to know is, since Replay TV doesn't sell their program guide, then would they be opposed to someone else reverse engineering the service and providing a competing program guide? Or even better, handing out the specs so that someone else could easily provide a competing service. Personally, I'd like to see the program guides provided by the tv provider (i.e. your cable company or satelite provider). Why? Because then I know that both services will always be available simultaneously. I won't have to worry about getting a tv signal and not getting the program guide. Both will either work or fail. And if both fail, then I just switch to someone else who will provide both. With Tivo/Replay/Microsoft I might still get tv signal, but the program guide might go away. So clearly a competitive program guide is what I'd want.

      But I don't think we'll ever see it. Clearly Tivo isn't going to do this, they want to sell the service. But I suspect that Replay won't do this either. Why? Because what they also want is the data that they download that tells them what you watched and when you watched it. They want the information about what programs interest you. They want the data about which commercials you skipped and which ones you watched. They want to know if you prefer the sports replays that the tv networks generate or the one that the PVR generates. They want to know who/what/where/when/why you watch TV.

      Think about this. How can Tivo/Replay/Microsoft provide a service that needs to run forever, without corresponding income that gets generated forever? By selling the information gathered from the service to program providers, or advertisers or ??? Think this isn't a viable business model? Think of it as the same service that Nielson sells, but with tv viewers paying money to participate.

      So with program guide going across an ethernet now, I imagine it's only a matter of time before the protocol is reversen engineered... unless of course, it's encrypted. And then it's only a matter of time before someone tries to hack the box to get the encryption secrets. And then it'll be only a matter of time before Replay/Tivo/et al, sue under the DMCA.

      This will be an interesting next few years in the PVR world.

  • Rock on, Commander! (Score:5, Informative)

    by AtariDatacenter ( 31657 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:19PM (#2364524)
    Thanks for posting the new updates. I'm going to save over them. But if all of this isn't enough to get you going, there is something else for you:

    ReplayTV PROMOTIONAL CODES! [avsforum.com]

    Some are geared at existing ReplayTV customers. Others are for 'people in the industry'. But they were freely given over the phone. I worked with this guy and got some codes corrected, so they now work properly.

    I took the $100 off and no payments. (That'll make it easily financable over a few months.) Note! Most of these promo codes are for all but the most basic model.

  • Isn't 320 hours of recording time overkill ? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane ( 209368 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:21PM (#2364538)
    I have a Tivo with 30 hours. I usually record things in "medium" quality, so I guess I get no more than 15 hours in reality. But I virtually never run out of space. The only times I wish I had more space are :

    When I go on a trip for several days

    When some channel broadcasts a bunch of episodes of something I like in a single day (a something-"marathon" they call it)

    But even if I could record all these things and keep them in memory, I'd never be able to watch them all anyway. I hardly watch everything my mere 30-hour Tivo records already.

    The thing that I'd really really like to see appear in PVRs is a second tuner. Very often, choosing between two programs is the real bother, not the amount of memory. The only reason why single-tuner PVRs work nowadays is because interesting programs are so diluted in an ocean of crap on TV. Come to think of it, that's also probably why 15 hours are enough, because there aren't enough interesting programs per day to fill it up.

    • Microsoft's DVR Ultimate TV has a second tuner (and I think maybe a third on some models.)
      • so does DirecTiVo, it has dual tuner. UltimateTV couldn't have three, because you'd need a third LNB on the dish, and I don't think that exsists.

        • I haven't seen triple lnbs, but I have seen quads. I have to visit the house-of-evil today (aka fry's) and will check. Don't know how they would do trying to put two quads on one dish for multi-satellite reception though.

        • You do not need a third LNB to have a third tuner. To understand why requires some explanation. The old single LNB's where only able to receive one polarization (clockwise or counterclockwise) at a time. With one IRD (receiver) connected to the LNB, the system would select the polarization required to tune a given channel. A problem arises if you connect a second IRD. The single LNB system will work only if both IRDs try to tune channels which are on the same polarization.

          Installation of a dual LNB solves the problem. One LNB receives the clockwise polarization while the other receives the counterclockwise. You can connect 3, 4, or more IRDs to a dual LNB and all of the units may be tuned independently without causing a conflict.

          DBS providers are currently using secondary satellites to provide local network and foriegn channels. The so-called "quad" LNBs are really just two dual LNBs each of which are directed at different neighboring satellites. The newer "egg-shaped" dishes have two foci for the reflector, allowing the single dish to receive from two adjacent satellites. Each focus for each satellite requires a physically separate LNB. These are generally dual LNBs which receive both polarizations simultaneously.

        • Actually, When I last looked into Sat. tv I checked on the whole multiple LNB thing. I had 5 televisions in the house at the time. In any event I didn't want my house to look like I was trying to contact E.T. so I asked how I could get multiple tuners (one for each television).

          Originally I was fed the same line about needing a LNB per tuner per television. Worked out to three dishes (2 with 2 LNB's and 1 with 1). Yea right.

          Further digging revealed you can use a special splitter with 1 LNB. It was for the Dish Network cost $400 USD at the time (about 2 years ago) and fed 4 tuners off of 1 LNB. Which meant I could get by with 1 dish, 2 LNB's digital splitter and 5 tuners. Upfront cost, before subscription would have set me back about $1200 USD. I dislike the cable company (Adelphia) as much as the next guy, but unlimited televisions at about $35.00 USD a month and no hardware cost kept me with cable.

          Perhaps when I'm down to 1 or 2 televisions I'll give Sat. another look.

    • I figure I have about two hours a day for watching TV. At the most I'd time-shift up to seven days, but not be too interested in stuff more than a week old. So that would make about bulk 14 hours. Right now I find seven four-hour VCR tapes to be adequate and maybe view a quarter to a half of it. Random access disk video would allow me to browse 20-30 hours of TV in my 14 hours of viewing. So that would be enough for my needs.

  • What if the service ends?? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I have to say it is nice of them to give the service for free and all, but what happens if the service ends? I can't find anywhere that talks about who does the service, and how do the people that provice this service get reimbursed for the costs of doing this?

  • Let me guess (Score:3, Funny)

    by BillyGoatThree ( 324006 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:27PM (#2364564)
    "...there are more detailed specicifcations."

    Are they going to include a spell-checker for you WebTV users?
  • I thought they went bust a year and a half ago.

    well, I wonder what the TV folks will think about this sort of thing, will we start to see more crack down on TV program copying since you can move the show to a divX formate and put it on a CD? how cool would that be for Star treck: Enterprise? :-)
  • just wait till someone develops a peer-2-peer network for these things :)
    • replay tv p2p?

      Group of friends/geeks/etc living in large house pool funds to buy $1000 replay.

      Unit goes on home LAN. Recorded shows get sent across home LAN and cached to disk. Someone hacks together some kind of online control, so you can schedule recordings from a browser. Archives go either onto VCD/DVD-R/vhs tape.

      If you helped pay for the unit initially, then watch or borrow material recorded, it's still fair usage..

      As much as I like the idea of a big juicy network that has every episode of any given show (cough*limewire*), it will still be faster bandwidth to use physical media to move things around (the station wagon of DATs driving cross-country theory).

      -mj

  • Hidden "features" like spyware, rights management? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by tmoertel ( 38456 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:37PM (#2364606) Homepage Journal
    Two questions:
    1. What kind of information about users will these units gather and transmit back to ReplayTV?
    2. Do these units incorporate any kind of "rights management" system that would infringe upon fair use or home-recording rights?
    • Probably your viewing habits. Which isnt bad if you think about it. Companies will pay for these habits and you'll see more shows based around the ones you like to watch, and you'll see less of the ones you hate to have on. Ad companies will be able to target you better. Also as far as fair use goes, it's legal to give taped copies of shows to friends to watch AFAIK. And as far as 'skipping commercials' this is only possible when you're watching pre-recorded shows, NOT real-time. And just like a normal tape VCR, you can just fast forward through commercials anyways, so this is also not infringing on anything, it's just a 2000 way of doing it (ie. better technology.).

  • In Japan, Toshiba sells a PVR with a built-in DVD recorder [toshiba.co.jp], allowing for easy archiving. I wonder when we'll see that here (where here=anywhere but Japan).

  • For those of you comparing prices with Tivo. Here's [www.enhancedtivo.com] a comparable hacked Tivo unit with 250 hours of (lowest quality) recording time for $925.

  • It will send to other ReplayTVs via ethernet... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by -=OmegaMan=- ( 151970 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:41PM (#2364632)
    ... so, a hack to make your PC look like a ReplayTV at the end of the cable would be miiiiiiighty useful. :)
    • ... especially if you have a home network that includes a workstation with an ATI television card in it, as I do. An add-on for the GATOS [freshmeat.net] project to allow a PC to appear to be a replay box, and then display the video would allow all sorts of niftyness. In my case, I could watch a recorded program in a window on my PC, while someone else watches live television in the next room. Now if I can just get a definitive answer to whether or not it is possible to buy the low-end model, and replace the hard drive myself...

  • Security, anyone? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by nuetrino ( 525207 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:44PM (#2364651)
    Let me see if I got this right. The RePlay unit is now to be connected to Internet 24X7. The company needs to have access to the unit to upgrade software and presumable download viewing statistics. The software is remotely upgradeable. And to say more precisely, it doesn?t look like it can be behind a firewall because the company needs access to the unit.

    So, are we talking a gleaming new attack vector into the home network with a guaranteed propagation strategy as user exchange content, or has security been taken seriously? I do not see anything in the specs or FAQ.

    I would probably let a M$ box onto my network first.

  • I'd like to see these come down a few bucks and also it would be really nice to be able to xfer the recorded programs to a PC so that we could convert to divx ;) or save to VCD's or whatever.

    I want this feature for archival of cancelled or rarely aired shows (Tales of the Gold Monkey, Family Guy, Starblazers, etc.)
  • You see, where I live I would be hard pressed to find 320 hours of TV to record on any given month.

    Even 40 hours may be an overkill.

    Maybe it would work well as an archiving tool. It would be nice to have all Babylon 5 in one place: 5 years * 52 * 50 minutes ~ 217 hours, leaving plenty of space for everything else. Unfortunately Bab is history now.
    • It's even better than that: the *vast majority* of TV shows don't make 52 episodes a year. So unless you like have multiple copies of the same thing, you can record lots of other stuff in there too! ;)
  • I'd love it if Replay actually ships what they're claiming to, but I'm dubious. When they shipped their first product, it had a firewire port on the back and their marketing literature advertised the fact that it was expandable via firewire. Never happened. They never made it work. After a while they just stopped answering questions about when it would work, then they denied that they'd ever said it would.

    The features they advertise sound great. I hope they actually ship them.
  • So has anyone thought of an open source variant on Replay/Tivo? Consider you can get ATI video cards that can capture video in real time and hard drives for nothing, I could see maybe a specialized linux project to create the ultimate home converge box. Perhaps even a specialized linux distribution that could turn that spare high-end PC into headless super box beyond Replay and Tivo. Think of the cool projects that could revolve around this? Open Source databases of program listings that wouldn't be subscription based, IR interface for a remote, voice mail which would screen out telemarketers and display phone numbers on the screen, DVD, voice command channel changing, dim the lights, mix drinks, etc.
  • Hey all. I spent my dotcom days developing Linux-based rich media network appliances, so I don't mean to disrespect the hard work of TiVo, ReplayTV, or any PVR vendor other than Microsoft. ;) But I was wondering if any of you have any pointers to the state of the art in open source Video4Linux-based PVR apps. I'd like the following:
    • change channels on digital cable or satellite (I don't know if a personal computer can do that without IR)
    • get program listings via the Internet for digital cable or satellite, hopefully with categories
    • have some utility to convert to Divx or 3ivx
    • web-based or other GUI interface

    I currently have partial use of the PlanB video chipset on my Powermac 8500 on Linux, and I would like to use it as a PVR. I'll either use my large RAID or get a faster CPU to compensate for PlanB's lack of realtime compression.

    Thanks!

  • Since the inputs are only S-Video, ant (and no HDTV decoder), and stereo analog audio, what's the Big Deal with the fancy outputs?

    Can you say GIGO?
  • See this post [slashdot.org] I made in the previous article about this for quotes and a link to the CNET article the quotes are from. Basically, networks will be given the ability to opt out of having shows shared. So this feature will probably be disabled for everything but PBS as soon as the networks realize their shows are being swapped around.

    One of the replies to my post makes the creative suggestion of using a VCR to pass the information through to make it appear on a different channel (3 or 4) to trick the Replay into sharing stuff it shouldn't-- but this will only work if everything on channels 3 and 4 (according to the unit's guide data, I would assume) is blocked from sharing too.

    I'm sure somebody will figure out a way around it, but then we're right back to having to hack it together yourself.
    • This makes one wonder: Why even bother putting in the show sharing features if you're going to let the networks opt-out? They'll all opt-out, obviously, so what's the point?

      Consider a company who wants to let people share shows but doesn't have the cash to go through a couple dozen major lawsuits. This company could release a device that allows show swapping, let the networks opt-out, but conveniently make it very easy for the end user to hack the box to share anything. This shifts the blame to the users and turns the box into a cult-classic to people like us.

      Face it: These boxes have been a hacker's thing for a long time. They were made to be hacked. There is a whole community dedicated to doing neat tricks with a Tivo. Maybe ReplayTV wants a slice of that enthusiasm? The show sharing and the ethernet port (they know someone will write an app to let you copy the shows to your PC - it's got to be painfully obvious to the people developing this box), if easily hackable, will sell a hell of a lot of these.

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