KaZaa Ignores Court Order to Shut Down 365
An anonymous reader submitted that "The Amsterdam district court ruled two weeks ago that the KaZaa P2P program is acting unlawfully by making software available that allows users to download music files and must shut down. The court gave the company 14 days to do this or face $40,000 US a day in fines. KaZaa has chosen to ignore the shutdown order."
WHy would it matter? (Score:5, Insightful)
Good (Score:3, Insightful)
History repeats itself (Score:5, Insightful)
That sort of reminds me of what Kazaa is doing, to the effect of "The Dutch court made their decision, now lets see them try to enforce shutting us down."
Refusing, but with a reason (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm personally of the same opinion as the author of the article. I think that as soon as they get shut down, they go to a much weaker position to negotiate from. Why negotiate with KaZaa to make money fromthe music they're distributing when they aren't distributing music anymore?
Mr. Spey
Re:Good (Score:4, Insightful)
But I don't particularly support music companies because they regularly screw over artists. This is not justification for stealing music, just an interesting fact that no one is suing the recording industry for the theft they've done...
As far as justifying the music I steal
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, that's exactly how it's supposed to work - just ask any civil rights marchers from the Deep South, for instance. Once the government realizes that they can't throw everyone in jail, the laws get changed. Or sometimes you get a new government.
Really, you're taking a gamble that enough other people will join your civil disobedience that the government can't ignore you.
Let's get things straight (Score:5, Insightful)
A system like this only works if all the users keep their P2P agents running 24/7, so that others can access their shared files. But when the agent is running, you get a stream of annoying popups. So people only run they agent when there's something to download. So they boast a huge database of stuff that's mostly unavailable.
Re:Good (Score:4, Insightful)
For one thing, most people wouldn't consider it worthwhile. This isn't about basic human rights, it's about consumer rights, and that's a whole different-- and less urgent-- ballgame.
Re:Good (Score:4, Insightful)
Ok, lets also take KaZaa out of the IT world and put it IRL then.
KaZaa is a music sharing network that depends on its users to ensure they only distribute free music. KaZaa is no more at fault for your personal failure to use your own judgement than the city is at fault when people use city roads to traffic drugs.
Using a road to commit crimes is no harder (actually its easier -- notice how much easier it is to break the speed limits) than using KaZaa to break copyright. And, normally, the law punishes the guilty (copyright violators) and upholds the rights of the innocent (the people building the infrastructure who never broke the law doing it).
>If you made music, you'd want to get paid for your effort, too...
I agree. That's why we must go after the perpetrators (people using the KaZaa network illicitly) and not the builders.
There you go -- no slashdot mumbo jumbo. Just 100% clear laymans terms. You should be able to tell that to just about anyone on the street and they should understand.
Re:WHy would it matter? (Score:4, Insightful)
Furthermore, why isn't the court going after Microsoft since Internet Explorer is the underlying layer of both KaZaA and Morpheus? Microsoft has about as much control as KaZaA over the Fasttrack network, and is even more culpable because their software is behind both of the major Fasttrack clients. If they want to pursue a ridiculous interpretation of the law, they might as well apply it consistently and not just to convenient targets.
What? Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Usenet anyone? (Score:1, Insightful)
Oh crap! Maybe I shouldn't have posted this! I've let the secret out. (Locks doors, bars windows..)
Re:Good (Score:4, Insightful)
They claim that they shouldn't be shut down cause they sell "legal" drugs. The illegal drugs they can't control.....
What would a cop do?
Control it, or we'll shut ya down.
My Defense of Kazaa (Score:4, Insightful)
First, I'm into trance, a form of eletronic music, that I can't seem to buy ANYWHERE, not even online. Sure I can find some albums every once and awhile, but most of the time the stores have never heard of what I'm looking for, can't get it, or it will take weeks to get, etc...
Second, in the electronic music spectrum, there's alot of stuff I don't like. I used to try buying CDs, then find out they were junk. Waste of money. Sure, I'd buy CDs of artists I liked that I could actually get ahold of, but I'm listening to alot of bootlegs and things from Europe that can't be purchased, at least in the USA...
Third, I'm poor. Now more than ever, it's difficult being a college student. I couldn't buy albums at all (maybe a couple a year) if I even wanted to. I'm sure alot of other people feel the same way. Most of the people who are pirating on Kazaa (including me) I bet would not buy the album of the person they were pirating anyway, either because they don't like it that much, it's just something novelty they wanted, or they're too poor to go out and actually buy it. You can argue then that the person should not have that recording, but the artist still is not losing money anyways and perhaps smaller ones gain from sharing their music to people who would have never heard it otherwise.
Fourth, everywhere I look, record sales are booming. They're having no problems pushing CDs, even though they're generally $3 - $5 more than 5 - 10 years ago when I was in my teen popular artist CD buying phase.
The only thing I can find in my local record stores are asshole employees, limited selection (plenty of the MTV crap), and high prices. I could buy online, but it's more of the same except the salesperson is taken out and replaced by phony reviews.
I'm glad Kazaa exists, it has opened me up to music I would not have found otherwise and allows me to get my hands on things I wouldn't be able to get my hands on.
Re:Good (Score:2, Insightful)
I agree. That's why we must go after the perpetrators (people using the KaZaa network illicitly) and not the builders.
Just to bring this back to the Slashdot level, let's not forget that if you're trying to remove the people responsible for the artists not getting paid, you're also going to have to go after the labels.
Fair Use of Kazaa (Score:2, Insightful)
- I like pudding.
Re:Good (Score:1, Insightful)
except that, in this case, these people aren't building roads and sidewalks with the intent of making transportation easier... they are purposefully enabling users to engage in illegal activity. while the software has legal uses... more people will use it for illegal file transfer, and the company knows this. that was their intent. if you hired a hit man to kill your spouse who had lots of money that was willed to you... you would be doing something illegal. even though the end product you wanted was money and not a dead spouse. you knew the spouse would die. in the same way, users are paid with illegal files to transfer illegal files to gain the company a user base..... which is an oppurtunity for them. Then they tell autorities it's not their fault, it's the user base... and the majority of the user base rallies in their favor. does that sound stupid enough for you?
Re:Usenet anyone? (Score:2, Insightful)
So the secret isn't out yet, you haven't told us where to find a broadband provider with free, unfiltered newsfeeds.
Re:Umm... (Score:2, Insightful)
Any extent to which they can be deemed "accomplices" is only in the same way that VCR manufacturers are accomplices to whatever illegal uses are made of their products. The critical fact is that there are significant non-infringing uses of the technology, and that is what got VCRs past the supreme court in the betamax case.
Re:Good (Score:4, Insightful)
It is never appropriate to ignore a law. You can obey it, or you can lobby against it, or you can openly defy it, but you must never ignore it.
The strength of our society (by which I mean the modern judicial society in general, wherever in the world it is found) is based on the authority of the law. We consent to be bound by the authority of law, and in return we live in a prosperous, ordered society. If a law is unjust, you must fight-- within the system when possible-- to overturn it.
But ignoring a law, even an unjust law, trivializes The Law as a whole, which erodes the core pillar of our society.
Disagree or even disobey, but always respect and honor.
Re:Umm... (Score:2, Insightful)
That's a nice argument, but even though a small percentage of downloaders actually do this, they are definately in the minority. You can't really base a decision like this on what some people do, rather how it going to be used most of the time.
When the interviewer mentioned that he himself downloads a fair bit of music, but doesn't buy many CDs, Huey pointed out that people their age just never bought (or sold) much music anyway, relatively speaking... it's far and away a kids' market.
Applying this to software or research and development for any organisation: Does this make it ok for warez kiddies to steal software just because they weren't going to buy it? Does it make it ok for small companies to steal technical secrets from big companies, because they weren't going to research them anyway? [Hint: The answer is no.]
Re:Consumer vs Corporate Morality (Score:2, Insightful)
If you could walk up to your friend who owns a BMW and copy it for free, wouldn't you be insane to go out and buy one?
Re:Let's get things straight (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't get it -- why does Kazaa only work if *my* shared files are available 24/7? So what if you can't access my files; millions of others will be available.
they boast a huge database of stuff that's mostly unavailable.
Not in my experience. Almost everything I try to download is available.
And for the record, I download, almost exculsively, unreleased live recordings. P2P services put bootleggers out of business.
Napster and Kazaa are cultural treasures. I couldn't, in a lifetime, find the gems I can find on a p2p service in a few hours.
Because it's too easy... (Score:2, Insightful)
In other words, any dolt with a computer can figure out how to download via KaZaa,Napster, etc... but if they were required to not only find a server and connect via FTP that it would be deemed too difficult for the masses and is therefore not a threat.
The same goes for IRC, etc... Transferring files via most applications is too intellectually challenging and what KaZaa and Napster are being nailed for is being innovative enough to make file transfer via the Internet "easy".
Of course, my personal take on it is also that these companies have little cash with which to fight back. Microsoft's peer to peer has been available for many years and is just easy to use - but it doesn't offer automated searching of hosts. You need to actually understand how to find a host and connect. Same with browsers.
The companies behind these technologies have lots of cache and lawyers. Napster and KaZaa don't.
This is the real issue the RIAA has with P2P and their current implementation. It's too easy.
Re:Good (Score:4, Insightful)
Since that is the case, to either through boycott or downloading, deprive the RIAA of its means to retain the stranglehold it has on the music industry isnt an ethical problem.
Once they dont have the clout to trick unsuspecting artists into enslavement and debt contracts, maybe a more healthy online distribution can be set up. Preferably where the artists and writers get the most of the money.
Personally I dont buy any CD's anymore unless from the band itself, and I dont even listen to RIAA crap if I can avoid it.
Water Under Bridge (Score:4, Insightful)
I'll go off on a slight tangent, but bear with me. When you need water, you just go to the tap and turn it on (at least in North America, that is). You get what you what when you need it.
What you don't hear is the Water, Gas and Power company screaming about how their rights are being destroyed by people being able to bottle the water and give it freely to a friend or neighbour. (Or derivative uses thereof, such as cooking, flushing, etcetera).
Why? It's commoditized. It's too damn cheap to bother with repackaging or giving it away. It's there. You get charged by the aggregate volume that you use in a month. You want to give a hectaliter to Joe Farmer down the street? Go right ahead, we'll bill you for your use. But why bother? Joe Farmer can get it for himself.
This is what the music industries need to realize. The cat is out of the bag, the genie is out of the lamp and Elvis has left the building. The days of charging $20/cd are gone for good.
This does not have to be a bad thing.
Commoditize the damn thing so that it's too damn cheap to bother with trading music (other than, "Listen to this cool track I downloaded"). Give people high bit-rate, guaranteed quality, do-what-you-want-with it music for pennies on the song, and you'll make more money than you can dream of. And judging by these guys expense accounts, that's a lot of dinero.
Otherwise, die like the dinosaurs did.
Re:Umm... (Score:2, Insightful)
I think this is perhaps what the RIAA is fighting most of all. It is very important that you not be able to purchase your music accurately or else they will lose potential sales of most of their library.
I think what they fear the most is that people won't buy an album for one song any longer. I know I used to buy albums because I liked one song I heard on the radio and thought that band would be good if it sounded anything like that. I was definitely wrong.
There are definitely albums worth buying, but I'll no longer spend $18 on one song.
Re:Anonymity (Score:2, Insightful)
Sure, some changes might have to be made to the way ISP's operate, and in some instances, court orders would need to be issued for the ISP's to release that information, but it could be done...that is, if the RIAA/MPAA were TRULY interested in punishing the guilty.
The fact of the matter is, they have no interest in doing so. Why? Because "the guilty" == "the customers." Start going after the customers, and you start alienating customers. Alienated customers are no longer customers...or, more specifically, no longer a source of revenue.
I honestly don't know what the RIAA and MPAA hope to accomplish with all this silliness. They should realize that they can't stop piracy, and they're obviously not willing to go after the pirates. It seems to me like a half-assed "show of force"...and the only purposes it's serving at this point is to alienate customers, and put honest, hard-working people out of work...all for nothing. It's truly sad.
Do they have the right to shut down? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Consumer vs Corporate Morality (Score:5, Insightful)
And this is why "you in the industry" are in the process of running your insanely profitable businesses into the ground. What you're feeling tightening around your neck is not Napster or Kazaa or Gnutella or whatever -- it's Adam Smith's famous "invisible hand"! Look, it's very simple. When all of your customers feel that you are charging too much for your product, or that your terms of use are too restrictive, or whatever, a black market is going to spring up. Simple as that. It's as true for bread as it is for music -- if every bakery in the US banded together and raised the price universally to $100/loaf, college students would be breaking into grocery stores and selling grey market Wonder Bread out of their dorm rooms. It's the magic of the free market at work.
Now, you say that's dirty pool because people used to think sixteen bucks a CD was a fair price, so they should continue to feel that way. But you've missed the ground shifting underneath your feet. New technologies have devalued your product in the eyes of the public. You need to either reprice it or accept that there's gonna be a certain amount of loss. You can throw out tepid, restrictive alternatives [pressplay.com] all you want, but why should people buy it? What's your value proposition for the consumer? (That's what businesses are supposed to do, you know -- serve consumers.)
Is grey-market music illegal? Sure. But grey-market bread would be too. Laws that attempt to impose morality on human nature [cornell.edu] are doomed to failure [cornell.edu]. Better to figure out how to profit off human nature by providing something useful at a price your audience thinks is fair than to try to ram outdated products and outmoded laws down our throats.
-- Jason Lefkowitz
Re:Good (Score:3, Insightful)
If you want to listen to music then pay for the damn stuff.
If someone set up a site whose sole purpose was to facilitate trading of WareZ for profit nobody would be leaping to defend them. OK Elton John and Bono probably get paid more than the average slashdotter, but the average slashdotter gets paid a heck of a lot more than the average third tier band with a major label recording contract. In 1999 the number of slashdotters with eight figure bank accounts probably outnumbered the number of musicians with one (no longer though, thanks GWB!)
What I really have no time for are the various venture capital funded attempts to make money out of ripping off music. Napster was such a shitty concept. They build up a big user base by giving away other people's property for free then they turn round and 'monetise' the base - spamvertising, pop up ads, spyware and of course screwing up your DNS to point to the Idealab! creation of the week. So the deal is Napster gives away $10 worth of someone else's property then tries to buy them off with a 5% share of the 20 cents they make back off advertising - great business model.
Of course it must be said that the MPAA and the RIAA are hardly deserving of sympathy for their predicament. Perhaps if the MPAA had not introduced the DVD zone system so they can charge twice as much for DVDs in Europe as they do in the states I would have some sympathy. I might even have some respect for them ifd they did not insist on peddling their pathetic lie that the Zone system is there to enforce different release dates in different zones - if that is the excuse then why are back-catalogue releases zone encoded.
And don't get me started on the cluelessness of the RIAA and their SDMI scheme. In the DMCA the RIAA effectively stole the returned rights of many recording artists by bribing Congress to declare the recordings 'works for hire' and thus exempt from the returned rights provision. It was only when the whistle was blown that a hasty ammendment was introduced to another bill repeal the section of the previous act. Fortunately the computer industry can afford to buy far more congressmen than the RIAA can by a factor of ten so I don't worry too much about the Hollings proposal.
The KaZaa case is not being heard in a US court so the relevance of the Libertarian party and the NRA mentioned by another poster is not immediately apparent. Incidentally the Netherlands has pretty liberal IP laws compared to the US, we managed to get Karin Spaink and co. off when the $cientologists went after them.
The real issue is the extent to which KaZaa can exercise control over their network and the extent to which they have deliberately placed it beyond control. Funny thing about courts is that they are not too sympathetic when you tell them you cannot do something because you anticipated a legitimate legal action and deliberately acted to make it impossible for you to comply. In the case of KaZaa there are a fistfull of shell companies set up with the sole purpose of frustrating court action.
The offense of 'contempt of court' is not simply failling to obey a court order, it is challenging the authority of the courts. So KaZaa may be considered to have been in contempt by launching their scheme in the first place.
Re:Good (Score:2, Insightful)
If I were to build a PRIVATE road on private land, and allow you all to sign a waiver so you can drive as fast as you want, the police would have NO jurisdiction to give you a speeding ticket (but arguably it could not directly connect to a public road without a checkpoint, etc..). However if you committed murder on the road, it would definitely be in the police's jurisdiction (ever heard of a speedway?).
I don't understand this mixed message that the internet is public and private property at the same time. On one hand, nobody forces ANYBODY to have internet in their homes. You don't want your kids surfing porn, don't get the internet (there are obviously other means for accomplishing these ends).
"Illegal file transfer" ?! I PAY money for anything of value to me. I only have a finite amount to spend. I will spend a relatively fixed amount on my entertainment. The price of that entertainment determines how much I receive. I would never PAY money for any of the Napster crap I ever downloaded... I downloaded because I COULD. People who use warez are not people who would ever have purchased the software in the first place. No company is LOSING money.
If labels are worried about LOSING MONEY, maybe they need to ADD VALUE to what they sell. Remember when album artwork meant something? Nowdays I throw a CD in my 100 disc changer and never look at the booklet. The fact that you can purchase a DVD for about the same price as a music CD is pathetic. A DVD is a great example of adding value to something- something many people might even already own as a video cassette.
At best, an "illegal copy" should be of inferior enough quality to prompt the purchase of the original (ie. who wants a badly compressed mp3 or grainy video file of a song or movie they really like?). People have yet to trade full
why stop there? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Good (Score:3, Insightful)
The ramifications of the emerging "intellectual property" regime extend far beyond pop entertainment. Even within the realm of entertainment, I cannot accept the idea that our common culture is "owned" by whoever capitalized its creation. The popular songs of U2 and Dire Straits are, in fact, in the public domain. They are widely known cultural referents, and many musicians could play them from memory. Unfortunately, the law has not kept up with reality, and denies that these songs are in the public domain.
But how do you even know there were civil rights protests? You know because that information was free to retransmit and archive. The Olympic Committee bans any unauthorized coverage of the games - they consider the games their "intellectual property". Even the athletes are forbidden to keep diaries. What if a city hosting the next WTO summit sells the "media rights" to a corporation? Then it would be illegal to pass on news or images from the protests.
If you watch the development of IP, it's clear that there is a powerful drive to destroy information. Shut down the fan sites, delete the tributes and remixes, take the old books out of print, take the old records off the shelf. Your example of Scientology vs Spaink highlights this destructive, censoring aspect of "intellectual property". And corporations are allergic to history - they'd like consumers and stockholders to live in the eternal now. Ever dig up an old computer magazine and see how quaint the "high-tech" ads appear? Kind of takes the edge off of techno-lust. Now if you were the publisher of that magazine, wouldn't you like to exercise your "intellectual property rights" and magically make the old magazines disappear? Your advertisers would like that.
And besides, by destroying the old material "content providers" create a vacuum into which to sell the new material. Already we are seeing laws (building codes) that are copyrighted by private corporations and illegal to reproduce. How long until your day-to-day activities are governed by secret laws?
Why? That's like saying "If you want to breathe air then pay for the damn stuff." Sure, it could support a massive air industry. Sure, the nonexistent air industry is losing billions of dollars a year, but why should I care? Conversely, why are you posting to slashdot for free? Surely you "deserve to be payed" for making insightful comments? Doesn't it bother you that I'm "ripping off" the "comment industry"?
I agree with the second half of your post.
ignore!? (Score:1, Insightful)