Scott Draeker Interview About Loki's Demise 327
An Anonymous Coward writes: "News forge is running an interview With lokigames president Scott Draeker. Looks like the leaked email wasn't a hoax after all. A very sad day for Linux. AOL? Redhat? IBM? someone please help these guys."
Pretty bad economy (Score:0, Insightful)
Draeker: We laid off our development and support staff last Friday. I understand at least one already has an employment offer elsewhere.
It used to be that programmers had to turn away jobs. Now of 10 with some real Linux programming skills, only one has a job offer.
Probably proves the old adage, "It's not what you know, but what you know about Windows programming."
Wrong market (Score:4, Insightful)
What about IP concerns? (Score:3, Insightful)
Since Loki only worked on ports of existing games and didn't (as far as I have heard) purchase full rights to the existing games' source code, what gives them the legal right to release the original authors' code into the public domain? Are they just doing it because there's nobody left to sue?
Any way you look at it, though, it will definitely be a victory to open source to have such a substantial amount of game source code out there now.
Mr. Uptime
You want games? (Score:3, Insightful)
Someone needs to figure out how to make the people happy AND make a profit. This communistic ideal is never going to work properly if you want these companies to last... Making a game is not a "group study," its a tough, 60 hour a week, full-time job. And people need to get paid.
Maybe we need "Open Source Money Pools" where you can vote what kind of game you want. I'm sure that'll happen.
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why? You seem to be missing the main point of Loki's business model. Loki took games that the game developers considered unprofitable to port to Linux and paid royalties to these game developers to port these games to Linux.
Now, with Loki having gone out of business, it has proven the developers' original point: Linux gaming is just not economically profitable. Heck, even John Carmack [slashdot.org] says (and I quote): "[T]he linux market is not viable for game developers to pursue. Linux ports will be done out of good will, not profit motives."
The harsh reality is that no one is going to bail Loki out. At this point, Linux games remain unprofitable. As long as gamers have good 3D support and decently easy game setup in Windows, they will continue to use Windows. My advice is to move on and not pursue the issue until Linux gets more desktop market share.
Bankruptcy in August 2001 (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyway, this might be a good opportunity to buy some Loki releases cheap. However, according to the article, we shouldn't expect discounts right away. Scott Draeker said "I don't think there will be any huge discounts right away -- maybe in six months..."
I have a hard time being upset about this... (Score:5, Insightful)
Mostly, when I hear news like this, I want to tell people 'right tool for the right job'. Right now, the right tool for gaming is Windows. I wish it weren't so, but I also wish that the cheapest place to buy quality hand-tools wasn't Sears Roebuck.
Until the tools change... and this means an infrastructure change to Linux like any of the Wine-focused distros are harping... Windows will continue to be the best platform for games, just as MacOS continues to be the best platform for many multimedia tasks.
Rather than bemoaning YALCB (Yet Another Linux Company Bankruptcy...) contribute to projects like WINE and LindowsOS. Also, Linux GUI's and apps have all gone well past the point where they should be spending as much time on usability and compatibility as they do on technology development and application power:
Example: One of the complaints I hear most frequently from Windows users who switch over to a big name distro like Mandrake or RedHat complain about the speed of Gnome or KDE up against Windows GUI. The speed hit can be explained and fixed through several settings, program switches, and even kernel optimizations, but if I'm a Joe-Sixpack who doesn't wan't to support Microsoft, but sees this behavior and can't fix it easily, then I'm probably going to stay with Windows.
If you want Linux to be a gaming OS, it has to be just as easy to use and configure for everyone as the other gaming OS.
Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Read the interview. The porting was to create a market, a need for Linux gaming. The eventual goal was to create Linux games, not ports. Draeker gives great examples in how even with the Mac, most games are just ported from Windows, which Mac isn't exactly a large market either for gamers.
Re:Why? (Score:2, Insightful)
The desktop market would add so much more credibility in the marketplace too. I am not saying to hell with gamers, just learn to crawl before you walk.
Re:Wrong market (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, I don't think that. But that is how your comment reads.
But once again... why do we need opensource games? We just need games.
If the games are open-source then anyone can basically rip them off. Open source is good for the GUI, server apps, and the kernel. Games are always going to be closed. At least to make some money they need to be.
Seems to me that is what keeps big game developers out of linux. There is no need to recompile a game. Give me a million reasons... I won't buy a one. If a game doesn't work, 9/10 times a fix is promptly released.
Game developers are in it for the money. They don't make that money however on support like server markets etc.
Re:Wrong market (Score:3, Insightful)
Explain to me again how to build a company around that? Oh right, by providing support... ugh...
Modding is simply a difference of opinion.
Very simple reason! (Score:0, Insightful)
People who use free software are cheapskates who won't buy anything.
Companies need people buying their stuff to survive.
No one using Linux will buy stuff.
Companies go under.
SIMPLE! Who the hell's gonna support Loki, Salvation Army?
Mandrake (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: The focus should still be on mass adoption. (Score:3, Insightful)
I hate to mince words here, but dig this: Some might argue that *BeOS* is the best platform for many multimedia tasks. But it's gone the way of the dinosaur because almost *nobody* used it in that manner, regardless of how well designed it was.
Likewise, I would argue that *Linux* is the best platform for gaming...if you're ready to cope with a limited selection of games. I won't bore you with FPS benchmarks, but Linux (3rd party drivers and all) has evolved to a point where it can spank Windows 2000 and XP on a regular basis every time a part-time gamer wants to turn that badass mail server in the back room into a temporary gaming box. The file system is faster and more efficient. A user can easily give any game close-to-realtime priority if fragging a friend is foremost on her/his mind, picking up 5-10 extra frames per second in the process...
My point is that Windows is *not* a superior gaming platform compared to Linux, just that it is far better supported by game developers and hardware manufacturers alike. Until that changes, we will all find ourselves downloading the new DirectX version 37.
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I have no signature.
Re:You want games? (Score:2, Insightful)
Games have no such luxury. They are the end product. There is very little to be made off support, certainly not enough to support the development of games like QuakeIII. Games have to make their revenue off initial sales.
Linux has proven dominant in the server market and it is a brilliant star there. Many have now set their eyes on the desktop, and all signs [newsforge.com] seem to indicate that this is a viable dream. I see linux gaming as the target after the desktop - once we have a serious control of the desktop market, Linux games will become a serious issue. Until then, however, the fight for Linux games will be difficult, as many others are pointing out. Loki did a great job, and many of us love their games, and it's sad to see them go. But the fight's not over yet.
Re:Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
OMFG, that philosophy reeks of soul-less corporate product shovelling! "There's not really any current need or market for our products, so we'll try to create one!" Personally, I love Linux for programming, administration, deploy-and-forget Oracle installs, etc., but there's clearly just no desire amongst gamers to switch from Windows.
Re:Just a second.. (Score:3, Insightful)
At the risk of sounding repetitive... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not saying Loki was a bad company. I'm saying that the business they were in was not robust enough to sustain Loki. Even the best of the best can only sell ice cubes to eskimos for so long. The Linux gaming market just isn't there, folks. Make your peace and move on.
I wish the folks at Loki (and the former employees) all the luck in the world, and maybe some day Linux will have a viable game market that will bring them all back together again. For now, though, it's not there. Pooling money together to keep Loki alive for the few people who bothered to buy their games is just plain silly. Ditto for asking RH/IBM/AOL to bail them out.
Loki wasn't in the business of charity; nobody should be asked for charity to keep Loki in business.
Re:Wrong market (Score:3, Insightful)
Look deep into your heart, and tell us honestly: how much would you pay for nethack-in-a-box? How much is that box worth to you?
Re:Wrong market (Score:3, Insightful)
We need games where the game engine is open-source, but the art isn't. Hell, even a Minix-style license would be fine (i.e. you pay for the game, but you get non-redistributable source with it, but you can distribute patches).
I don't find it too difficult to imagine a constantly evolving open-source game engine, where various companies periodically grab a version of the engine and sell art for it. This is where QuakeForge [quakeforge.net] might be in the future.
Re:The Games? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, that's exactly what's going to happen.
The same could have been said for Corel's products -- there is nothing else comparable to Corel Draw for Linux or Corel WordPerfect Office 2000 for Linux, but both have been discontinued due to nonexistent sales. I'm lucky enough to own both, but people who want to buy WordPerfect Office 2000 for Linux today are out of luck, because Corel won't sell it to you and neither will anyone else.
In fact, it was Corel's second try... Corel Draw 6 (IIRC) was released for Linux years ago, and pulled due to lack of sales.
I see a lot of people here complaining that it's about capitalism vs. communism, or about "they didn't release the games I want" but I think, when it really comes down to truth, things look something like this:
It's nothing to do with a utopian fantasy about free software... Linux users just want free beer. It's a sad thing for those of us who want to use Linux for anything else. We get told over and over "Use the right tool for the right job. What you want is Windows." Hmmm, Windows to run office software. Windows to browse the Web with a decent browser. Windows to play games. Well, as it turns out that's all I use a computer for these days.
So, in essence, what the "community" tells the rest of us, day in and day out, is "get lost and go back to Windows." Not because of any principle, but because they're deathly afraid they might become mainstream.
Sad for those of us who have never owned windows. I came up through the Unix world, starting in the mid '80s and I'm comfortable with *nix systems I still have a VT100 (yes, a real one) sitting in the corner that I use for some things. But if they're saying that Linux is for coding only, and thus modern Unix is for coding only... I guess I've outgrown Unix and will have to invest in Windows.
Ramble, ramble, ramble...
Back to on-topic... in short, yes, the games, and all of the hard work, will likely disappear into a black hole.
Blood from a stone (Score:2, Insightful)
If Loki been able to get some big name games to the platform things may of been different. Sorry, but Postal is a crap game that was crap on PC and no amount of good will can make a 2-3 year old crap game a viable product.
Maybe they should of looked at the charts more and sold out. Who wants to be a millionaire? sold bucket loads. Yeah it is shallow, but it is mass market and a damn sight more likely to sell than The Return of Postal-Unplugged Special Edition.
Oh, and for all those people who say things like "I use Windows ONLY for games" why bother saying that? Does it make any difference if you use Windows for ONLY games or if you use Windows for everything? Do you feel proud that you pay the same amount to Microsoft for their operating system but don't use it for anything (apart from games)?
Re:I have a hard time being upset about this... (Score:5, Insightful)
*Looks over at the Dreamcast and Gamecube consoles next to the television, controllers already so worn from extensive use that the buttons are going bad*
You're kidding, right?
Re:Possible new business for these guys... (Score:3, Insightful)
Pricing was Loki's Problem (Score:1, Insightful)
I love Heroes III, and play it all the time.
I too wanted to
People who use Linux *love* using linux. It's
the platform we chose.
I still remember how flabergasted I was a the
price (like $9 or something) I paid for Heroes III.
Loki made one, fundamental mistake. They
should've charged $30-$60 for the games and
done a good job on them, maybe made them better
on Linux. I would have still bought Heroes III,
and Loki would have had maybe 8X the revenue.
The Linux game market is most certainly *NOT*
dead. Loki's business model of selling the
games so cheap was the error here.
Right! Wrong market (Score:3, Insightful)
Although not the most technically advanced game, Tux Racer is a good example of the possible success of Linux games. If even a simple Linux-only game as this can achieve as many fans as it has in the Linux market, larger projects that were creative and Linux first had a good chance of success. But a port of SimCity 3000 months after you could already play it on your computer in Windows? Good game, bad business.
Linux Gamiing Market... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem here is they port a game after it is popular, with a lead time of at least 6 months to get from Windows to Linux. The Linux users who also like to play games alot are typically on x86 architecture, and have some version of Windows (even 95) lying around. Is it worth it to wait 6 months to a year to play a game on Linux, especially since by then the Windows version is in the bargain bin at 1/5 the price of the Linux version.
*If* there is a potential viable Linux gaming market (and that is a big *if*, the Linux desktop userbase is already small compared to Windows, and of those users, I would venture to say that most don't really care that much about games.), then the only hope to see it come forth is if the playing field is level, meaning that releases would have to be simultaneous, equally available (on the shelves), and equally priced. Given the circumstances, only Transgaming can have a short enough lead time to really sell enough to have any good numbers.
Re:You want games? (Score:4, Insightful)
The primary ongoing games development for Linux is largely being done for communalistic (or, at least, unprofitable) motives. John Carmack has worked to ensure that linux binaries are available for ID games simply because he likes linux, not because there's any profit to be had in it - he's made this clear again and again.
The truth is that the market, as a market, is too small to support Linux as a target platform. Perhaps appealing to the communal "by geeks, for geeks" ethic would actually be more effective than by claiming, wrongly, that there's some untapped goldmine in the Linux gaming market.
open source/ free games? i doubt it. (Score:2, Insightful)
with the majority of popular games coming out now, mainly in the land of FPS and RTS, you can gain access to an SDK within days of the games release, as well as normally a section of source code with which to rewrite sections to make your own mod or just to tinker with the game, making the whole 'port games to linux because its open source etc etc' a moot point
and with every developer and his mother trying to release another version of quake, c&c etc, and all the 'its like <genre defining classic> but quicksave is now F10 instead of F6' games coming out, its hard enough to make money without charging the large amounts companies already do for games.
how could a company that is rewriting already existing games for an operating system that is really only a niche market *in the land of gaming* (note this point before you flame) expect to cope? even though they dont have all the issues with art, music etc, these things dont convert themselves. and the amount of people that downloaded a full OS for free, then a browser for free, then everything else for free arent gonna wanna pay just to play games. i think this whats happened to loki has proved this point.
<redundant>
windows is the premier gaming platform, and its gonna be a hard thing to change. sure, i whinge like the rest of us when IE crashes for the millionth time for no good reason, and i despise all the 'invasion of privacy bullshit that makes me use Eudora and Netscape/Opera instead of Outlook/IE, but games wise, you arent gonna get a better platform.
</redundant>
Gamers follow games, not platforms (Score:4, Insightful)
So the problem with Loki's business model is that it was porting games that were already available. The only people interested would be those people who don't run Windows, but want to play the games - that's a minority of gamers. The vast majority of gamers just want to play the game; since it was already released for Windows, they have no need to get it again for Linux.
Now if they were producing new games for Linux, that'd be another matter entirely. But they're producing games for Linux that the hardcore gamers all already have for another platform; there's little incentive for them to buy it again.
Re:Linux Gamiing Market... (Score:3, Insightful)
Note that giving the users a choice of which OS to run (a "level playing field") isn't a necessity for vendors... If you you sell 100 units split fifty-fifty when selling to Win and Linux, you might be just as happy selling 90 to Windows and not selling to the Linux market by not porting.
Of course, if the cost of bringing the product to the platform is low, the support burden low you might as well get the remaining profit as well. It's just a question of economics.
Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why would you do this? I can see making the game for Linux first and then porting, but why on Gods green earth if you a had game so earth-shattering great would you NOT try to sell it to a market about 10000% bigger then Linux users?
Games take money to develop, and most people want to make that back.
Re:Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
Why is it I never have moderator points when something REALLY needs bumped up.
Jump back in time to Windows 3.1 if you will. Even Solitaire didn't play well on it, much less the bulk of the gaming market that was designed for DOS. Once it was readily apparent to even the most obtuse gaming company that Windows was going to be the future of the desktop, games started coming out for it. The best place to establish this is at the corporate level, much like Windows did way back when.
Folks seem to forget that the killer app for Windows 3.1 was not Doom, it was Excel. Only by focusing on the corporate desktop will *nix OS's have a serious chance at going after the broader consumer market.
Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Linux isn't like that. Linux is taking a huge step back into fighting hardware, distro issues, compatibility issues. It's a pain in the ass, and not worth the effort. I don't think we're ever going to see that. Not until we have standardized development (SDL, still needs to go a long way) and good vendor support (Hi nVidia!). Don't hold your breath, because unlike windows, Linux isn't commercially backed for the desktop. The only way linux gaming will succeed with it's current setup is good nature which we all know companies don't have -- because that tends to turn them into liquidation material.