Linus Tries Out BitKeeper

Flammon writes: "Linus has been overloaded with patches for a while and recently the issue started to become hot again. In an unprecedented move, Linus has started using BitKeeper, as reported by Linux Today. The benefits of BitKeeper are already showing from the large amount of detail provided in the latest unstable kernel pre-release." eirikref adds: "Read Linus' own statement and take a look at the BK web interface."

Re:But surely

[tftp]

The *BSD projects seem to meet those criterion and are all using CVS.

That is fine; but the most important problems would be absence of changesets (so you can't undo related groups of patches), and absence of tiered repositories (everyone goes to the same, single, central CVS server). It all can work, and it does work as we know, but the more code you write the more difficult the maintenance becomes. Like it or not, CVS is an old software, unchanged for years and full of kludges, and BK is one of new designs.

Re:I think Arch would be better

[Anonymous Coward]

/. inserted a space into the URL for some reason.
Here it is again:

"http://www.regexps.com/src/src/arch/=FAQS/subve rs ion"

Hmm, /. is still inserting the space in "subversion".
Strange...even placing it in quotes didn't help
in the URL.?

Re:Linus not getting enough respect

[Hard_Code]

"It's his friggin' hobby, after all. If people don't like the way he deals with it, maybe they ought to go work for a more personable coder on another OS, like, say, Theo De Raadt."

Um, except that NOBODY WORKS FOR LINUS! Linux isn't Linus's ball anymore to take away when he doesn't like how people are playing the game. That said, I think he's been a wonderful leader and manager, and is obviously opening up to suggestions. But it is stupid and insulting to say that people who aren't satisfied with Linus's management should just suck it and pick another OS. Linus himself would tell you that Linux is more the community's than his.

Re:Linus not getting enough respect

[mark_lybarger]

There's a point where a kernel development becomes a little more than a hobby. I would have to say Linus has crossed that line long ago. He may or may not recieve DIRECT monetary incentives to keep up the good work, but regardless, the line is crossed. It's now a profession. Linus is a professional Linux developer. Until he takes a professional position that does not allow him to spend as much time on kernel development, it's his profession, and as such no longer a hobby.

Re:BitKeeper gives you the answer:

[Anonymous Coward]

The BK site seems to be unavailable now (wonder why?) so I can't check the revision date on that page, but I can tell you that a friend of mine who knows Perforce and CVS and Clearcase and a bunch of other revision control systems wrote the BK guy and disagreed with more than half of the stuff on that page.

He got a fairly unprofessional response.

I've used Sun's source control tool, and it was so awful that I've wiped its name from my memory. It locks the entire repository to do anything! So updating a source tree over an ISDN line (which took about 40 minutes where I was working) prevents anyone else from checking anything in until you're done. That doesn't save much time, let me tell you, and it really pissed off the other developers.

And guess what, the BK guy wrote that too, and thinks the locking is a feature.

Maybe that's changed by now. Check it out, but watch for 'features' like this one.

architecture problem, not SCM problem

[markj02]

The problem with Linus getting overloaded is not a problem with SCM, it's a problem with the Linux kernel itself: too many kernel enhancements and bug fixes (apparently) require patches all over the kernel. What we really need is a more flexible way for extensions to hook into the kernel and override existing kernel functionality.

There are lots of ways of providing such hooks. Perhaps the most compatible with the Linux kernel mindset would be something similar to Emacs-hooks: replace most kernel functions with variables holding function pointers to the actual code and provide APIs for manipulating those hooks.

Re:But surely

[chenwah]

Some of the newer 'out-of-tree' development that is going on in FreeBSD at the moment is being done using Perforce.

I think some of the SMPng and KSE work is in p4, for example.

No free alternatives?

[leandrod]

I did a superficial investigation on source control systems, and found some very interesting really free ones, like Aægis [aegis.sf.net].

Does someone know if free alternatives to BK were considered, and if so why a semi-free one was choosen? If BK was better, specifically how it compared to Aægis and other alternatives?

Re:But surely

[Skuggan]

I say, any project above 50 KLOCs and with 100 revisions on average would be pushing the limits.

That is bullsh*it!
The CVS limitation does not lie in how many KLOC or number of revisions it can handle. It handles lot more than that.
The limitations is purely functional, like how it handles branches, merging and such stuff. There it lags behind the newer systems, like Bitkeeper, arch and others.

Security?

[Quixote]

From Linus' email, mentioned above:
Basically, I'm aiming to be able to accept patches directly from email,

Does Linus use PGP sigs (for example) to verify the senders of these patches? I hope he does (being Linus and all that).

Re:I know it's off topic... but I gotta know

[roryh]

This is because Linux has a macrokernel architecture - everything's compiled into "the kernel", which is a hassle for some people, but increases execution speed.

As I understand it, WinNT uses a microkernel architecture - the kernel proper does the bare minimum it can get away with, and the rest is handled by higher-level "services", which in theory can be worked on and upgraded without disturbing the microkernel.

Actually, Linux is somewhere between these, owing to the modules system. I agree though that it would be nice if modules were so reliant of what version of the kernel you were using. I don't know about the practicalities of this.

Re:Cells don't scale

[kurisudes]

Actually, a further look at a cell model style shows that it does scale very well... a cell model generally has a leader for every 5 cells and a group of 5 of those are a leadership cell... and over every five of those there is a leader and so on and so on... The largest church in the world, Yoido Full Gospel in Seoul, Korea (with a membership of several 10s of thousands) is cell based from the bottom up.

Re:The devil must have had to put on a sweater

[HamNRye]

And then Linus complains and complains....

I personally like the comment about he was only able to do 50 patches etc... (Gee Linus that's ten off from last month??) This is still about the fact that Linus is overwhelmed and refuses to delegate. The community gets up in arms about it finally, and Linus gets a CVS system instead of splitting up some work.

Well, maybe this will quiet the community until Alan C. can get back to it.

~Hammy

Bought damn time

[Anonymous Coward]

Linus has finally moved from chaos to order. One of the major complaints about the Linux VS BSD development model (a lack of a control system) has been fixed.

Now, to address what this means for Bitkeeper.....its death. Yes. Bitkeeper is now doomed. Why? Simple. The "keep this in the GPL family" movement will have someone clone the Bitkeeper method of software management, and a GPLed Bitkeeper clone will be created, it will catch up to Bitkeeper, pass it, and then Bitkeeper will have its oxygen cut off, and they will die.

Re:Quick question ...

[WNight]

Actually, those contracts that say "we can change it and you're still bound by it" aren't valid.

There are some cases they can be, but it's usually the sort of thing where you get a bank statement that lists the new regulations and you "accept by continued use". When a company says that they can change the agreement without warning though, and it's your responsibility to check, they're lying.

One legal reform I'd *really* like is to make it illegal for companies to lie about the law. It's like a warranty where they say "You get squat - except where local law says otherwise" They shouldn't be able to say "You get squat" because in almost all countries there are lemon laws and the like. Similarly, companies shouldn't be able to tell you that you have no legal recourse when you do, or to tell you you must accept bizarre terms when those terms aren't enforceable.

BitKeeper seems quite honest, if they don't resort to this kind of trickery.