Authors Guild To Members: De-link Amazon.com

theodp writes: "Angered by Amazon.com's practice of offering [prominently placed] used editions of relatively new titles, the Authors Guild is urging authors to replace Amazon.com links on their web sites with links to Barnesandnoble.com and BookSense.com. Amazon spokesperson Patty Smith insisted the policy really "ends up helping authors and publishers" although neither the author nor the publisher receives royalties from Amazon's used book sales, and Smith could not cite an author or genre helped by the availability of used editions. " CD: I'd imagine they don't want us to go to our local used book stores either? This is the second time they've tried to call Amazon to task for this.

Re:What next...

[kpetruse]

What's the difference between what Amazon are doing, and what many car sales firms are doing (other than the cost, of course...). Plenty of car firms sell nearly new cars right next to the brand new ones.

No Way! - you mean Americans have free speech!

[noahbagels]

Holy Bagels Batman:
If people start talking to other people, and agreeing on ideas, and practicing what they preach, who knows what will happen!

but seriously, while I personally have no problem with shopping for used books to save some $$$, what's not to like about authors speaking their minds. it's not like they hacked Amazon's website to remove the books - they simply made a group decision not to link to Amazon when it comes to promoting their book sales.

I really don't see the big deal here, and hope this doesn't become a flame war between people arguing over the virtues of used books, and those calling the authors elitist or whatever.

Another advocacy group goes off half-cocked

[quistas]

Used books are good for any number of reasons:
- ecologically, used books = no new resources expended, no landfill required
- lowered price points mean poorer readers (like me, for years) can afford to assemble a decent library without paying $30/hardback
- lowered prices mean I can pick up books of an author unavailable at my under-funded branch library mean that I can look at more authors, finding ones I want to buy new in the future
- used book dealers like the ones that sell on Amazon are really the last bastions of independent thought and customer service, because they can't compete on the razor-thin margins B&N/Borders/etc have brought to the new book market

By their logic, instead of lending or giving my friends good books I think they might like, I should burn my copy and then direct them to the nearest B&N. What a load of crap.

I write, I make some money at it, and my library is easily 50% stuff I bought used at Half Price Books or my other local hole-in-wall places. Screw these morons. Used books rule.

Re:I can see their argument, but...

[HT5]

I can see the logic in their argument, as I too would be quite pissed if I didn't see any money from the sales of something that I created. I've wondered for a long time how artists felt about used book sales, because in their mind it might just as well be someone selling illegal copies of their creations.

well, then their mind is stupid. it's not an illegal copy of their creation. it's not even a legal copy of their creation. it's not a copy at all. it's the original book that was bought and paid for. once you own it, you're free to do with it whatever you want. if you buy a used car from someone, should the manufacturer get a portion of the money?

Re:No Way! - you mean Americans have free speech!

[jgerman]

And more importantly, not like they tried to pass legislation banning the sale of used books. Let them cry all they want right. Amazon has to make a business decision, which is more important to their business, the prominent used book link, or the free advertising. I'd place my bets that the free advertising is creating more revenue, but that's just a guess.

Userfriendly revisited

[HrVad]

I have instant flashback to some days ago when A.J. from Userfriendly.org is harrassed by the inquisitors, who try to make him pay for his CDs more than once. I mean, if I buy a book, I should be free to do with it what I please afterwards. That amazon helps me excercise this right is just a great service. --Vad

Clothing

[phunhippy]

.... So how long before all the clothing i donate to school yard sales and the salvation army becomes illegal because the manufactures want a cut of the sales or would prefer poorer people to only buy new clothes(and damn the poor sucker who buys my stinky shoes)...

Re:Nice to see the authors guild active...

[Kierthos]

Oddly enough, because of Project Gutenberg, I've gone out any bought copies of what I've read there. Mostly because I wanted to own a copy of Dumas' "The Three Musketeers" that I can take to work, on trips, whatever, without having to worry about firewalls preventing me from reading, power failures, whatever.

Kierthos

Are You Serious?

[krmt]

Come on... you're putting a sensationalist spin on this one that's just not fair to the Author's Guild at all. Of course they got money on the first sale, and of course you have the right to sell the book if you want to. That's not the point.

The point is that they are upset with the prominent placement these used editions are getting on the website, because people will generally prefer the cheaper used edition to the new one. This will prevent the author from getting that second or third new copy sold, and thus 1/2 or 1/3 of the potential money. They are not trying to restrict your rights in any way at all, so stop being so sensationalist about it.

The fact is that both sides have a very good point, if you bothered to read the article. The authors are concerned that they will get less sales of new books (which is a tough thing to get if you're not someone like Anne Rice or Steven King to begin with) which will decrease their profits. Note that this isn't the publishers talking (like the equivalent of the RIAA) but it is the Author's Guild, which represents the authors themselves.

However, in the end I think I like Amazon's position: "It encourages customers to explore authors or genres they might not otherwise try because of the price," said spokeswoman Patty Smith. "That ends up helping authors and publishers." This is a good thing for new authors that won't really hurt the established authors or the publishers themselves. Either way, no one is trying to slap a EULA on your books, so please try and calm down a bit before you post.

Re:Same thing with Records

[AcidDan]

"Didn't Garth Brooks have a fit a few years ago about used CDs? Didn't they try to outlaw the used CD business?"

Ok mod me down for this one but I couldn't help it:

Why didn't they try to outlaw Garth Brooks???

-- Dan, This should so be -1 sorry guys!

Re:Nice to see the authors guild active...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is nothing short of failure to comprehend that we live in an interconnected society. So what if I resell my recently read copy, the money I receieve will put money into my hands. Money that could very well be spent buying more books... The cheaper resold copy will allow poorer people to own what they otherwise wouldn't afford and spread interest about a particular author or series of books.

People should learn to see the wholistic picture, not let their fear drive them into insane positions about the world revolving around them. Fear is never justified if you have the knowledge.

Re:What next...

[WowTIP]

Nope, exactly the same deal. It reminds me a lot of the fuzz when Nintendo threatened to boycott swedish game shops that sold used games. If people then defended the shops right to sell used stuff, why wouldn't the same go for Amazon. Every book Amazon sell by an author contribute to his fame (if it is any good, that is) and will earn him money in the long run. If people didn't have the option to buy much cheaper used books or borrow them at the library, many probably woudn't be read at all.

Re:Are You Serious?

[haggar]

I see the Guild's point, and I don't approve. For too much time and too many things the consumers have been screwed over. Having the option of buying a used copy almost immediately as a book is published, is a pro-consumer thing all around.

I can see a legit way that the authors could fight this: make the books so good that noone would ever part from them. Tough, but not impossible. No way I will ever sell my copy of "A book on C".

*sigh*... A childish dream.

[bmajik]

Would it be so bad if our government, laws, and ethics, revolved around a simple principle ?

An individual can do anything they like such that it doesn't infringe on anyone elses rights.

Where there is no "right" to profit, and if you're doing something in the privacy of your own home, no one else is involved, so theres clearly no infringing of anyone elses rights going on.

I don't want anarchy. You shouldn't be allowed to shoot me, but you should be allowed to buy a gun.
I shouldn't be allowed to steal a TV (or a copy of Windows), but i should certainly be able to build my own TV or my own windows.

If i dont feel like paying for aspirin, why shouldn't i just make it myself ?

When did our system get so unusable. When did it become "Acceptable" to pull this kind of shit ? I expect revolution at some point. I claim that our current system of laws is so complicated that it is not possible to spend even a single second of your life without breaking some law at some level of government. Is it any wonder why there are more people entering law school currently then ther are lawyers, and people have a utter malaise and disrespect for the law in general ?

Re:I fail to see the logic in this

[Casca]

So couldn't they just make Amazon send them back the cover of any book that was remaindered? They could still sell it, but not as many people would buy it.

I think it's OK

[jjohn]

I co-wrote this book [amazon.com] and I don't have a problem with Amazon's used book policy. Heck, I wouldn't have been able to read the out-of-print Day of the Triffids without that used book option. While I have great sympathy for full-time authors who need every red cent they can get, I also feel that it is better to look ahead to the next project rather than worry about used book/priracy sales for an old project (I'm looking at you, RIAA). I think focusing on the past (if you aren't a historian) is generally unproductive.

Re:Just like Cd's

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really because paper is used mainly for original works instead of cd media where it is mainly used for "copies" and backups of original works.

That is i beliave the reasoning for the cd media taxes.

Cheers

Re:Amazon DOES NOT SELL USED BOOKS !!!!

[karmawarrior]

Amazon just broker, taking a small cut. They don't provide Amazon shipping materials to the seller. It's not dissimilar to eBay, except everything's "Buy it now for..." and the payment system is provided for you. Most of the sellers in my experience are "ordinary people", selling their collections, though there are a few companies that use the system too.

From what I can work out, B&N doesn't list sales from anything other than affiliated bookshops.

I've purchased second hand books from both Amazon and B&N, and that's been my experience. Oh, and a note to the authors and publishers: If you really don't want us to buy second hand books:

• Keep your books in-print. That's, believe it or not, the #1 rule. People can't buy new copies if you refuse to sell them.
• Don't try selling paperback fiction for $25. I don't care how good the book is, that's excessive.
• Keep all types of your book (hardback, paperback, etc) in print, rather than just the MMP.

Asking Amazon to make the second hand option less prominant will not help you, and cheap shots like this will only make you less popular. Less greed and more selling = more sales. More greed and forgetting to sell = less.

Wrong - not how it works

[dipfan]

No that's not how it works at Amazon - you (or your mom) should have a look at its website.

Amazon doesn't order books from any second hand dealers, and it doesn't handle the postage and packing - it just facilitates the sale through its Amazon Marketplace thing...

From Amazon's explanation:
The order will be sent directly to your seller, and within two days they will ship your item using standard delivery.
...
Please note that since we are not directly involved in the completion of sales arranged on Amazon Marketplace, buyers will need to contact the seller directly....

Informative? Not very.

Sounds like Amazon is focussed on its CUSTOMERS...

[dpbsmith]

...and I think that's a good thing.

Not everything in life is a win-win situation, and listing used books possibly has some negative consequences for authors, but it is DEFINITELY a useful service to Amazon's CUSTOMERS, which is where Amazon's focus should be.

ot your sig

[gimpboy]

Shouldnt it be anarchy is better than no government at all
as opposed to that?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

No no no, not right...

[Tyrant Chang]

Have you even bought or sold used books on amazon? I have and amazon's used book sales is not even close to what you are describing.

The used books sales in amazon are mostly person to person sales. For example, I buy a book, I finish reading the book, I want to sell the book. I go to amazon.com and post the book I want to sell. Someone else buy the book and I ship the book to the person. All amazon does is facillitate the sale and payment. They don't even see the item. As you can see, this is much akin to ebay's model.

What you are describing does happen to certain degree for other items but is *highly* dependent on the contracts. Some contracts, amazon is responsible when they get the items, sometimes amazon is in possesion of an item briefly before the item is sold. However, this does not apply to used books section.

Anyway, visit the site and see what the used books is for yourself before submitting comments.

Remaindering (Was:I fail to see the logic in this)

[SJS]

It's not like it's hard to spot a remaindered book - they don't have covers (that's what is sent back to the publishers for the refund).

Remaindering is an abomination in and of itself. It's a subversion of the whole supply-and-demand basis of the market -- if you don't pay at least $PRICE for a book, you don't get it at all.

The books are already printed. The expense has already been incurred. Remaindering is just a[n artificial] way to keep prices high. So yeah, it's not suprising that the publishers are on the lookout for folks selling remaindered books.

I buy a fair number of books. I buy a lot of them in hard-cover, even. I have a list of authors[1] that I purchase their new-to-me works as soon as I find 'em, be it hardcover, paperback, used, or whatnot. I don't have a problem with authors and publishers making money. I do, however, have a problem with being considered a mark by the publishing industry.

[1] Headed up by Terry Pratchett, Vernor Vinge, Lewis Thomas, Robert Fulghum, Jim Butcher....

Re:What next...

[SuperDaveTX]

Even though car dealers are selling used cars, it still has an impact on the manufacturers [aiada.org]. According to the Wall Street Journal article, people returning leased cars (which are re-sold as used cars) severely depresses the vehicle prices and could result in the loss of billions of dollars for the auto industry. I have also read in other articles that the problem is compounded by rental car companies re-selling its older cars when they are replaced.

To make a point, it's established that resale (books or autos) has a negative impact on the sale of comparable new products. Amazon has every right to make a profit by leveraging the existing used book industry, but the Guild also has a right not to support Amazon's decision to pursue that market. Especially when there are other resellers they can support who are not selling used books.

Re:What next...

[VAXman]

A more fruitful analogy would be recorded music. You can buy a turntable in any stereo shop which will play anything made in the last 50 years, and if it does 78 RPM, it will go back 100 years. CD's from 20 years ago can still be played like new. Videotapes, too.

Any industry in its infancy has multiple standards which get sorted out in the longrun. A hundred years ago there were all sorts of competing standards for records, but one won out. Twenty years ago there was all sorts of competition for computer platforms, now there's one. And BTW you should be able a twenty year old DOS program on a modern PC.

So it's likely that the e-book industry, if it is to grow, will evolve the same way.

Re:Digital distribution cuts the fat

[ichimunki]

Thank you for arguing this salient point, which is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Amazon is not selling digital copies of the books. They are selling used copies of relatively new books, pretty much setting it up so that the used copies are in direct competition with the new copies. The re-use question in this case is an important one, since apparently authors and publishers would like to see us create more landfills than conserve paper. On the other hand, the unfortunate fact is that in the time it takes for a book to become popular the after market for used copies will quickly be flooded on the supply side. Meaning that just as new sales should be picking up, Amazon is facilitating the used sales.

The publishers and authors are understandably upset, but unforunately the way things stand the best they can do is point out how this hurts their business and hope that consumers will understand. Certainly it is counter-productive for authors themselves to link to Amazon, if Amazon's practices are demonstrably linked to less than optimal new book sales.

Of course as a consumer, my goal is to obtain the maximum book for the least buck-- and I probably don't care if the book is used in many cases. Score one for Amazon. Too bad I'm boycotting them.