Segway Getting Real-Life Tests

EReidJ writes: "washingtonpost.com (no registration required) has an article on real-life use of the new Segway scooters, including an update on some of the safety issues and where state laws currently are with use of the Segway. (20 states have specifically passed laws to allow the Segway on sidewalks.) Interesting read."

Yeah but....

[kwishot]

Those of us in the northern portion of the country are still screwed. Here in Wisconsin, these things would never work on an icy sidewalk.
Anyone try riding a bicycle on ice?

Safety & crowding

[The Rolling Blackout]

Well, the article mentions this a bit, but I was thinking:

Aren't some sidewalks (NYC, SF) crowded and dangerous enough as it is, as far as bumping into people and such?
Imagine making those everyday collisions with fellow 'pedestrians' when one of you is moving at twelve and a half miles an hour. I foresee dislocations, damaged merchandise, and god forbid one of these cops happens to do one of those fruit stand smash-ups so popular in the film industry.
I'm all for a new, efficient means of transport, but these things need their own lanes of travel, like some cities have provided for bicyclists.

bike lanes, not sidwalks

[Jeremi]

Here we have a machine that goes 12MPH, about the speed of a bike. Perhaps we should be riding these in the bike lane, not on the sidewalk.

(and before anyone whines about their city not having enough bike lanes... here is yet another incentive to add some)

Re:Segways are too dangerous to be on the sidewalk

[NanoGator]

They seem dangerous to me too, but not as dangerous as moutain bikes. For one thing, this seems more like a 'stop and go' vehicle as opposed to a 'go and prepare to slow down' vehicle like a mountain bike. Slowing down for a turn, for example, is no big deal. The Segway can just pivot, unlike a bike.

Being electrical vs. pedaled means that somebody piloting one of these machines is less likely to value their constant speed. A bicyclist has to start pedalling again after slowing down to make up for lost momentum. I think this is the cause of some unnecessarily risks/maneuvers.

Again, I'm not saying that it's totally safe, I'm just saying it's different enough that it's possible that it'd be allowed. Personally, though, I think sidewalk travel with these devices should be capped to roughly the speed of soembody walking past. If they were to implant the proper indicator on the housing, one could be fined for going too fast on a sidewalk. (i.e. put a light that turns on when the device goes faster than x mph.)

Re:Political/Marketing clout?

[Anonymous Coward]

If skateboards cost $5000 and were designed for people who are to lazy to walk, the average city council member would be more open minded about them.

Re:How far can you lean forward?

[foobar104]

As I understand it, gyroscopes. As you push forward on the handle-thingy, the Segway pushes back, powered by the internal gyroscopes. I don't have any info on the amount of force involved; presumably, if your objective is to knock the thing over, you'll find a way to do it.

I dunno...

[Telecommando]

I mean, the Segway is neat and all that, but outside of the "Wow, cool!" factor, is there any part of it's design that really screams, "Look! I'm so much better/cheaper/more efficient than a conventional (2 wheels, front and back) motorized scooter?"

If there is, I don't see it. It's neat, sure. But at root it's just an electric scooter. It could easily be replaced by an 3-wheeled, electric cart, motorized skateboard, electric bike or powered roller skates; all of which would be a lot cheaper to produce.

I would think it would be better to change the laws to allow all small motorized vehicles, 2, 3 & 4 wheels, on the sidewalks and bike paths.

I haven't seen the laws that were passed, but doesn't it seem odd to pass a law just to help a single product achieve market share? Surely it's vague enough that other small scooters would be allowed rather than just the Segway. If laws are changed just so one guy can make money, I want one changed for me, too. ;-)

It seems like the only thing that the Segway does that other scooters don't (outside of the self balancing bit), is put money in Kamen's pocket.

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood, it's been a long day.

Re:It's actually pretty safe

[bfields]

First, if you're riding a segway at it's top speed of about 14 MPH, you can stop in about 15 feet

On a street, where you have rules about right-of-way, and where you can count on people to *look* before they enter traffic, that sort of stopping distance is fine. On a sidewalk, where anyone in front of you can change direction on a dime, where people can appear from corners or doorway with no warning, it's a disaster.

a runner going that fast takes about 20 feet to stop.

14 mph is about a 4-minute mile, right? Isn't that pretty close to a flat-out sprint for the mortals among us? Would you really feel safe sprinting on a city sidewalk on a regular basis?

Getting hit by one of those things is no worse then getting hit by someone who weighs 75 pounds more then you.

Actually, getting hit by a runner 75 pounds heavier than me who sounds extremely unpleasant. Not something I would want to be happening on a regular basis on the sidewalks in my town; would you?

Collisions with motor vehicles are also going to be a problem: note that you do *not* escape conflicts with cars by riding on the sidewalk. Instead, every driveway and intersection represents a potential conflict with a motorist, and motorists are *not* going to be looking out for people moving at high speeds on the sidewalk. (Think about where you look when you pull into or out of your driveway--would you see someone approaching from the wrong direction on the sidewalk in time to avoid a collision?) This is the reason that, by some estimates, sidewalk cyclists have double the accident rates of road cyclists. The same principles apply to segway users.

Sounds like the Segway people have a pretty good line; perhaps I shouldn't be so amazed that they're getting away with buying this kind of legislation. But they really need some opposition. Here's one summary of the issue from the point of view of pedestrian advocates [americawalks.org].

--Bruce Fields

Re:It's actually pretty safe

[bfields]

Any special reason why you're convinced that lots of Segway riders will be suicidal enough to do 14 MPH on a crowded sidewalk?

Yes; go to any university town and watch the students on bicycles. They're doing those kinds of speeds and faster, on crowded sidewalks. This is the reason that some cities ban cycling on the sidewalks downtown. I agree, you'd think the cyclists would be smarter than that, but a bicycle is seductive--it's *hard* to slow down to wobble along at a walking pace when you know you could be gliding along at 15+ mph.

I think they must be convinced somehow that nothing too bad can happen to them, no matter how they ride, as long as they stay on the sidewalk--until the day when they find themselves flying across the hood of a car driven by someone who (not suprisingly) didn't see them while making a left turn across a crosswalk, at which point their life flashes before their eyes, and they ditch cycling, go buy an SUV, and live the rest of their life encased in a big steel security blanket.

Somehow I think we've all accepted this idea that "sidewalk == safe" and "road == dangerous" and in doing so we've lost our ability to reason sensibly about traffic safety.

--Bruce Fields

We'll approve it and subsidise your wages bill

[Mandelbrute]

From the article:

Ronald Medford, the staff member who made these suggestions, has taken a government-approved sabbatical to work for Kamen's firm, DEKA Research & Development Corp., which created Segway. Medford is the "in-house critic and adviser, having nothing to do with sales and marketing, but only telling us what to do to make products safe," said Gary Bridge, Segway's senior vice president of marketing. To avoid conflict of interest, Bridge said, the government continues to pay Medford's salary ($138,200 a year) and Medford has promised to recuse himself from any product decisions involving DEKA and Segway when he returns to the CPSC later this year.

So he worked on the approval process, is now working exclusively on the product he approved, and the government (not the company he is working for) is paying his salary. Does anyone else have problems with this? In a lot of places something like this would be looked at carefully to see whether there were job offers during the approval process or other signs of bribery (with the government being stupid enough to pay the bribe). He's not being paid to do his job, he's being paid to be a DEKA employee (his orders longer come from the government)- so DEKA should pay for him.

Re:bike lanes, not sidwalks

[tgdwyer]

Perhaps we should just be riding bikes in the bike lane and walking on the footpath (sidewalk)?
This thing really seems like the ultimate complicated solution to a problem that's already been solved... by bicycles! A bike is cheaper, faster, more reliable and it keeps you fit! Try joining a critical mass [critical-mass.org] ride in your city. It's the most fun you can have on wheels.

Personally I love this part of there website...

[Tranvisor]

How long will a Segway HT last?

In order to deliver a durable business productivity tool, we pursued two design avenues. First, we built durable mechanical and electrical systems to be in solid state, so even the moving parts were designed for longevity. For example, the motors are brushless servomotors, so there are no parts that could wear out. We then submitted the systems to extensive, rigorous testing to ensure we met our goals. Second, we created a modular design whereby if any part were to wear out or break, it could easily be replaced, ensuring a long product life.

In other words, we have no f'in clue, and we don't feel like saying something actually helpful like, its under warrantee for 20 years, for example. Nono, be safe with the knowledge that if something breaks on you thousand dollar scooter that the only place you will be able to fix it is here, and we like to make money :).

20/20 Foresight

[jolshefsky]

I'm generally someone to think through my irrational bitching before I go spout off on it in public. I don't like the idea of Segways on the sidewalk but I couldn't quite figure out why. I've read through some of the comments and the controllability argument (which is what most people are citing) is, IMO, invalid.

Based on what I've seen and what I believe about the behavior of the device, I think controllability is not an issue. The only argument I have along these lines is the lack of a dead-man switch (which I'm not even sure is absent from the design)--I forsee a "news of the weird" clip about someone passing out/having a seizure/dying on a Segway and plowing through a crowd. The other thing that is somewhat disconcerting is that these things just stop when they break or when the battery dies. Of course, that wouldn't be my problem as a pedestrian, only a problem for the person-minus-three-grand who has to "Gingerly" tote around 75 extra pounds.

What I do think is the problem is the same one that is really the reason bicycles, inline skates and scooters are banned on sidewalks, and even the reason that joggers and runners are disliked: When someone is walking, they don't want to be concerned with what's behind me.

It is well established on the road that the driver of each vehicle is responsible for controlling their own force vector. In non-pseudo-intelectual-nerd-speak, they're responsible for not running into things in in the direction they're moving. There are rules in place (i.e. speed limits) that let people relax and not concern themselves with stuff going on behind them [for the most part anyway.] As long as people follow those two rules, things go really quite well.

On the sidewalk, however, the same rules are implied but not enforced. As long as a sidewalk is populated by people walking, they have an assumed speed limit (the vaguely defined "walking speed") that allows each pedestrian to ignore what's going on behind them. For the most part, if I'm on the sidewalk and I want to go from the right side, all the way to the left side, I can basically do it without so much as a glance to my left to make sure I don't walk right into someone.

However, if there were vehicles or people who were going faster than myself, I need to look further back before changing direction. By my estimate, even if you could assume that the sidewalk speed limit was only twice as fast as your own speed, you'd be pretty stressed about not stepping a few inches out of a straight trajectory for fear of getting hit. As a cyclist, I know that applies on the road--my speed is typically half that of cars on residential streets, and I pay attention to not deviating more than a few inches from a straight line and pray that the driver doesn't hit me anyway. When the speed difference is greater (i.e. 3x) it gets pretty terrifying.

Now, if only we could change the world and make everyone responsible for their own actions and concerned for the well being of their fellow man ... ha ha ha ha ha. Oh, I slay me.

OK, time for a show of hands

[jackjumper]

Of those /.ers out there that *have* ridden a Segway, who thinks that they're too dangerous for a sidewalk, given that the following is now allowed:

- jogging
- baby strollers
- jogging with baby strollers :-)

I've tried one out; I think they would be acceptable on sidewalks. You can't compare them to bicycles, roller blades, skateboards, or scooters. I think anyone that has ridden one would agree that they are completely different.