Vatican/HP To Put Library Online 539
darkuncle writes "I first read it in the LA Times print edition this morning, but the story is also available on several websites via news.google.com. Apparently the Vatican has enlisted Hewlett-Packard in an effort to put the contents of the Vatican Library online, including many rare Bible texts and previously unavailable manuscripts, including handwritten notes by the likes of Martin Luther and Michelangelo."
Copyright issues? (Score:4, Interesting)
Thank God!!! (Score:3, Interesting)
Looking forward to seeing whats online.
Erotic Art (Score:2, Interesting)
Jaysyn
Open Source, Omitted Works and Theological Upheval (Score:2, Interesting)
So what I'm getting at is whether the Vatican plans on opening up all works for perusal or do they plan on omitting certain works based, possibly, on how well the information fits in with the desired line of thinking.
What if there are works that don't dovetail with the accepted works? What if some writings in their collection outright contradict other writings? Is the Vatican ready to drop the line that theology is too important to leave to the commoners, really?
Re:A lot will go unseen... (Score:2, Interesting)
And the cathedrals! Catholicism is the first multinational corporation dedicated to its self preservation and profit. It existed for how many centuries before the people even understood a single word of mass? The cathedrals are castles that were funded by the faithful who really had no clue what their faith was. The crusades were financial ventures, that much is common knowledge.
I'll most likely be modded as flame bait, but that would really only prove my point. There has never been any type of openness or disclosure about what the Catholic church is up to, and for a very good reason. It siphons money from believers in order to fortify its position and find a reason to exist. So they'll publish their library, so what? This certainly won't be the dawning of a new age of responsibility, accountability, righteous ethics, or social service in the Church.
So, anyhow, the moderators can prove me right by marking this as flamebait. If I were wrong, there would be more than enough people to explain why I'm mistaken and stupid, but barring that unlikely scenario, mod me to -1 so nobody gets the sniffles or sheds a tear.
I smell ... Bullshit? (Score:3, Interesting)
P.S. Yes I know I butchered this but I have no spell checker at the moment.
Re:Actually, wait... "Rare Bible Texts"? (Score:3, Interesting)
I think that this might qualify as the most naive thing I have heard on Slashdot. The Catholic church tells you exactly what they want you to hear. The Bible is the most interpreted/misinterpred book ever written. People over time have always translated it to say what they wanted it to say. I would love for them to put all of the "good stuff" from their archive online, but it won't happen. It will be selected texts that make them look good. Otherwise, if people found out all the info behind the Catholic church, it would probably fold.
Copyright Vatican Library?!?!? (Score:3, Interesting)
Are they simply exerting copyright over the photograph of the document, and not on the contents of the document itself? Is that okay, even?
Re:A lot will go unseen... (Score:5, Interesting)
"Not to mention, it would bring out a lot of texts that would show just how modern Christianity and Catholicism was practically invented by Roman Councils picking, choosing, and editing text as they pleased, and how all the text of the Bible either came from oral history or history written 70 years after Jesus' death, of which none of the original texts still exist."
Yeah, whatever. You obviously know absolutely nothing about Historical Criticism. Your bias against Christianity has scewed your view of New Testament development so severely that you lack any objectivity. Though, IMHO, traditional authorship (as claimed by Christians) of NT texts has a tendency to be incorrect, save for Paul's writings (and even some of those are up for contention), it's a stetch to say "modern Christianity and Catholicism was practically invented by Roman Councils picking, choosing, and editing text as they pleased" and "written 70 years after Jesus' death". There are some that argue (including myself) that Mark and "Q" predate the revolt/Temple destruction and 'Luke'/'Mat.' reliance on said texts shows a level of care in constructing their gospels that sceptics don't want to admit.
I'm probabally wasting my time...
Learn some Biblical history and take your anti-Christian bias out of the picture, it makes you look immature, even to non-Christians (like myself).
Re:A lot will go unseen... (Score:5, Interesting)
While I agree it's never good to make "wildly opinionated and unsupported comments", I don't think that's the case here. After spending all my years in schooling up 'til college in either Sunday school (first 4 years) or a Catholic school (the rest), I learned a great deal about the Catholic Church and its history. And you know what? (S)He's right. The statements made aren't supported by links etc., but generally speaking, facts stand on their own. If you would like to debate anything that was said, feel free. I'm more than willing to find a plethoria of evidence to support each and every claim made in that post.
IBM's work... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:It is so HUGE (Score:5, Interesting)
So will they use the Theological Markup Language? (Score:2, Interesting)
So will they use the dated Theological Markup Language (ThML) [ccel.org]? Or do they go with Cocoon [apache.org]/TomCat [apache.org] to mark-up this data the same way the CCEL does [ccel.org]?
Re:A lot will go unseen... (Score:3, Interesting)
I think the poster was referring to what the Catholic Church tends to do; and I have to agree. Nobody likes to admit mistakes, and the Catholic Church is no different; they try to bury that which does not make the Church look good. Unless you're a Catholic Cardinal, I don't think you should be offended at all. Personally, as a Catholic myself, I'm offended by the way my Church has acted in the past and in the present. The Vatican has been ordering NDA's for settlements for years in abuse cases (despite calls for reconciliation by a number of bishops), and now one of the things the Vatican is fighting is reporting of molestation accusations to local authorities. That offends me greatly, as it should you and every other good and decent human being on this Earth. The poster wasn't Catholic-slamming, (s)he was Catholic Church-slamming; something I do every chance I get. Why? I'm Catholic, and I was taught that the stuff my church is doing is wrong.
Re:A lot will go unseen... (Score:3, Interesting)
Um, are you serious here? For one thing, its not a secret that there are no original copies of the Bible left, though there are thousands of copies dating back to within a couple hundred years of Jesus' death which are all in pretty much agreement. Likewise, none of the persecution is a secret either (crusades, spanish inquisition, salem witch trials, etc.). Picking and choosing? Well I suppose if you consider what books were made canon, decisions regarding the trinity, etc. Gosh, I think thats all in the history books too. So I'm not sure which secrets you *think* are there in that library, but thats just it...you think it and that does not make it fact, and likewise nothing revealed would change a thing about Christianity. It might blemish the Roman Catholic Church or whatever but guess what...there was a protestant reformation many centuries ago in which people decided to follow what was in the Bible and not what the Pope says.
Scores (Score:3, Interesting)
No disrespect to Martin Luther's handwritten notes, but give me Josquin Desprez's scores [vedo.com] any day.
With Open Source OT/NT, must consider the source (Score:4, Interesting)
(1) Esther is in both. The books that are not in both include Tobit (an excellent novel, worth reading, and amusing at some points. Did you know you get cataracts from sleeping outdoors with your eyes open? Birds poop in them, you see...), Maccabbees (an excellent documentary), Daniel and Susannah, maybe Wisdom.
(2) Martin Luther, if I understand correctly, picked the Hebrew Bible because he liked the feeling he got that he'd understand things better in the original Hebrew. The RC Church picked the Septuagint, which was archived in Greek in the Library of Alexandria, because this was archived *before* the time of Christ, and was generally accepted as scripture at the time of Christ. The Hebrew Bible was written by Sadducees after Masada, and does include some significant changes. Sadducces did not believe in the Resurrection, for example, and thus did not include books that pointed heavily towards the Resurrection. Also, "virgin" was changed to "maid" (neanis) at the part where the prophet says to the king "is it not enough that you should weary the ears of men? Must you weary God as well? But since you do not ask for a sign, this shall be a sign unto you: a virgin shall concieve, and shall bear a son..." One can only guess the reason for such a change.
There is something to be said for both sides. I prefer the RC side, though.
(3) Then you get to books like the Gospel of Thomas. This is a case where you especially have to look at the source. The paper is quite old, and indeed would be one of the earliest gospels based upon the age of the paper. However, the ink dates back to the time of the Saracen invasion of Spain, and the pollens in the ink seem to place the writing in Italy. So it would appear, especially since that book supports Islam more than Christianity, that it was a work of fiction written at that time. Perhaps it was written on very old paper to try to support Islam -- perhaps not.
Re:Will it include all the rare items? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's about a lot of things.
In your opinion, should I expect to find the known-to-exist-but-tightly-guarded material regarding Hitler's final solution online? Should I expect to see everything the Vatican has about the Dead Sea Scrolls online?
The Vatican's behavior during the Holocaust does bear scrutiny, but I don't think they deserve all of the bad press they had. There were two options Pope Pius had; protest Hitler's actions and bring the Church openly against him, or maintain diplomatic relations publicly while privately trying to help Jews behind the scenes. The Church chose the latter, and managed to smuggle several thousand Jews out of Germany and provide a safe haven (many ended up in the Swiss Guard). I think it was probably a mistake, considering the horrific loss of life that took place, and that they should have come out publicly against Germany. I think it would probably have saved more lives in the long run by publicizing the plight of Jewish Holocaust victims, but I don't think they were complicit in the deaths as some people feel.
I'm not sure what you mean by the Dead Sea Scrolls; I don't pretend to know everything, or even that much about the Church, so perhaps you can enlighten me. As far as I know the Scrolls are held by the Israel Antiquities Authority, and any information the Vatican has would have had been from the same sources as any scholar; a reading of the scrolls themselves.
But I think that's pretty unlikely. I will be mightily impressed if the Vatican DOES fully disclose all of these secrets. What do you think? What is the Church about and why do you think they will publish everything?
Of course they won't publish everything, but they're not saying they will. The article I read explicitly said "selected".
Besides, every book in the Vatican != every book in the Vatican library. The real secret stuff I'm sure is kept somewhere else.
It will be online... (Score:2, Interesting)
Are they going to translate the works/documents, or put them up in the native raw text.
I would love to sift thru the piles of text, but I don't speak Latin, especially not Latin of 2000 years ago.
This is going to be an incredible tool for the educated, but nearly useless for the common folks. Afterall think about all the various translations of the Bible, the differing opinions on words, etc.
Who do we trust to translate these documents?
Re:No But the Vatican has the world's largest porn (Score:2, Interesting)
Kinsey was big on throwing that kind of dirt around. It helped build the environment of moral relativity needed for the kind of serial child abuse [50megs.com] disguised as 'research' that he promoted.
Its online already (Score:2, Interesting)
Pius XII And The Jews (Score:2, Interesting)
As for the idea that Pius XII didn't speak out, I suggest everyone read this: http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/piusjews.htm
It even quotes the New York Times of the day giving MUCH well-deserved praise to Pius XII.
I hope this get's modded up...
Not only is it a country... (Score:3, Interesting)
I was browsing through the U.S. State Department's online "dossier of countries" (whatever it's called), which includes some interesting statistics for each country.
The Vatican is the only country in the world to have a literacy rate of 100%. (Granted, there's only a few thousand citizens, but still...)
Read some Gérald Messadié (Score:1, Interesting)
Unfortunatley, his only book available in english is his "A History of the Devil" (see it on Amazon), which hardly conveys the breadth and impact the stuff he's written.
This isn't some conspiracy theory wacko, but really a guy that dedicated 20 years of his life at actually revealing what the new testament really contains. I would have usually dismissed claims such as his, but he does layout the proof and asks to be shown wrong.
Basically, Jesus never died on the cross. He fainted, was taken off the cross, hidden while he healed, fled to Damascus and from there to India where is currently burried: a few pictures of the tomb [tombofjesus.com] (unfortunately this I'm not sure all that is on that site textually is accurate, but the pictures are).
What was his name in India? "Yuz Azaf", pretty close phonetically to the arameic "yusu". Why did Maria think he was a gardner when she saw him after his death? Because he had shaven his beard. What's that have to do with gardning? In old Jerusalem some workers didn't have the privilege of wearing a beard, gardners were some of those. Yes, but they put a spear through his side and water came out of it? Jesus was crucified around April, which is pretty cold in Jerusalem. When you are cold your plevra (the envelope that holds your lungs) gets filled with a water-like liquid. But he couldn't have survived that? Yes he could, read up on some of what WWI (or previous wars) wounded went through.
Jesus never claimed that he was the messiah. If you don't believe this then try to find the passage in the new testament that he says he is. You won't find it because he never does, not even once.
The reason Paul claims that he met Jesus on his way to Damascus was because Jesus was indeed hiding there and Paul did indeed meet him in flesh and blood.
Yes, but how can you claim that he didn't die on the cross? Do a little research. By all standards crucifixion was an old punishement even by first century standards. We have a lot of texts which show that someone that was crucified could stay up there for up to a week before actually dying. That's why the new testament insists on the fact that they didn't break Jesus' legs. They usually have to do that so that the poor bastard dies faster. Jesus was up there for less that 6 hours, they didn't break his legs or break his scull (which they sometimes did). He didn't die up there, he fainted. The guards were probably bribed to take him off of there. Proof, Pilate doesn't believe his ears when they tell him that Jesus is dead and actually sends a guard to verify this.
One more thing, the first century tomb I allude to above has a stone slab in it that is quite revealing as to the identity of the person being buried in it. The slab has an over-sized carving of two footprints. These footprints are characterized by assymetric crescent-like markings which are distinctive of a person being crucified.
Unfortunately, no one can open or even approach this tomb at this point in time. Why? Because it's in Srinigar which lies in the region of Kashmir that is disputed between India and Pakistan. If you've been following the news lately then you understand that all of us western boys and western girls are not welcome there. Not to mention that even the locals get caught in nasty killing sprees
Yah, but how th f"/$"%k did Jesus get to India? They used to call it the Silk Road
No need for any secret book, really. Now, if only I could get a copy of the original of Josephus' manuscripts; the ones where he actually tells the truth about Jesus, not the doctored ones we currently have where he is made to say that Jesus is the messiah and so on. Bet they have one of those in the Vatican's library
Oh, and I forgot to add that I did go to mass on every Sunday 'til I was 23. Nowadays I follow what Jesus taught, not what Paul and his lunatic fringe have been using to justify every possible lunacy for the past 2000 years
Re:Will it include all the rare items? (Score:3, Interesting)
Muslim scholars are out for the truth, which should also be what the Church wants. So they actually read Rushdie's book, and found the obvious flaws in it, and debunked them. There is no effort to hide the work, just point out it's slander. The price on his head was not to coverup his work, only make him withdraw his slander.