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LOTR: The Two Towers 861

Let's try to mash all the LOTR submissions into one. Reviews: comingsoon.net, Empire Online (UK), CNN, Slate, Salon. The LA Times has a story about animating Gollum which we can't link to because it requires registration. Lord Satri writes "Ents, elves and mages being on every orc's lips, new versions of Tales Of Middle-Earth are available. It is an open source, one player and online multiplayer game. It is ported to many OS's. Yeah, no terrific graphics, but the game is really worthwhile. It is based on the famous roguelike Angband (variants here). Faithful to Tolkien's writings."
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LOTR: The Two Towers

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  • Thank You (Score:2, Interesting)

    by namespan ( 225296 ) <namespan.elitemail@org> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:30PM (#4916718) Journal
    I'm beginning to see that I should subscribe to a filtering service that blocks anything related to "roguelike" and "nethack". My employment search will almost certainly be mortally wounded.

    If someone invents a time machine, could you please go back and somehow prevent the invention of Rogue?

  • Didn't make it out (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bhsx ( 458600 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:31PM (#4916736)
    The AMC up the street apparently sold out 3 theatres for a 12:01AM showing. Knowing the size of those rooms I'm guessing that's around 1600 people, and in the burbs, not the city. Amazing. They'll break $100M by Sunday.
  • Registration links? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ctrl-Z ( 28806 ) <timNO@SPAMtimcoleman.com> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:32PM (#4916744) Homepage Journal

    The LA Times has a story about animating Gollum which we can't link to because it requires registration.

    Since when? Is this a new leaf turned over in Slashdot history? Did it originate after the posting of articles from sources that require paid registration?

    I see no problem with posting registration-required links. Just make sure there are others (as there are in this case).
  • ents... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by bje2 ( 533276 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:37PM (#4916795)
    i have tickets to see the movie at 8:00 tonight, but i was just curious how good do the ents look? the reviewer in my local small town paper said something about they looked "unrealistic" and like "muppets crossed with plants", or something like that...yeah, way to go jackass, cause you really have a good idea of what a "realistic" ent would look like...so, how do they look???
  • by airrage ( 514164 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:43PM (#4916866) Homepage Journal
    Here's a few of my favorite paragraphs from the review in the ny times [nytimes.com]:

    With the narrative of "Rings," Tolkien was investigating determination, loyalty and, finally, faith, finding innumerable ways to offer up the concept of purity of heart, as found in Matthew 5:8 and in Kierkegaard, whose contention was that purity of heart was the ability to will one thing into being. The pursuit of purity is at the center of "Towers."

    Mr. Jackson's mastery of craft in some areas is so powerful that the flaws are more noticeable than in the first film. The little-boy allure of the storytelling in "Towers" is sure to evoke the same reaction that it did in "Fellowship." "Towers" is like a family-oriented E-rated video game, with no emotional complications other than saving the day. Women have so little to do here that they serve almost as plot-device flight attendants, offering a trough of Diet Coke to refresh the geek-magnet story.


    Not sure if I should enjoy the movie or write a critical essay about it. But there's a couple of lines in there that are real zingers.
  • Re:So... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by tmhsiao ( 47750 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:45PM (#4916896) Homepage Journal
    It's pretty good. I found I liked Fellowship more, because the separate stories in TTT slows the pace of the movie and makes you feel the long running time more than Fellowship's pace (understandable, given the costraints of plot). This could also be because I saw it at 12:01 am in a very hot, crowded theater, with people discussing Guinan's friendship with Picard behind me.

    For the purists: I'm going to have to re-read the book, but Jackson does make some big changes to plot (far bigger in the plot-sense than substitutiing Arwen in or eliminating Tom Bombadil).

    Visually, the film is spectacular, from the siege at Helm's Deep, to just the amazing scenery of Edoras.

    My primary complaint with the movie: Not enough Ents. But what you do see of them is awe-inspiring.
  • by proyZ ( 264772 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:46PM (#4916898)
    Saw it this morning at the 0h premiere :-)... In general i loved the movie since it has a lot of good things going on (battles, gollum is absolutly great,etc!)... but i was a little dissapointed at the portrayal of some characters like faramir (they show him as unwise and eager to have the ring as boromir which he wasn't at all!), showing ents as stupid stubborn old folks, and some liberties they took in the story..

    anyways it is a very good movie but from a tolkien fan standpoint at the end i had very mixed feelings about the movie..
    ..well i suppose that means i'll have to go see it again...

  • Re:ents... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by daoine ( 123140 ) <moruadh1013@yahoo . c om> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:48PM (#4916922)
    Surprisingly, Treebeard was my least favorite ent stylistically speaking. Although he's really the only Ent we got to see in depth -- I thought some of the others looked cooler. I liked the more gnarled Ents better -- their faces looked more interesting.

    Unrealistic isn't the right word -- and it could be construed as Muppets crossed with plants, but don't think Muppet show Muppets...think more like the really good Muppets in Labyrinth. The cool ones. I think it's not really a measure of realism, but of expectations -- what do you expect a tree to look like once it has eyes and a face? I thought they did a great job.

  • by IIRCAFAIKIANAL ( 572786 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:53PM (#4916956) Journal
    I'd be interested in the number of showings of the LOTR movies compared to other movies. Do they keep those kind of statistics?
  • by t-maxx cowboy ( 449313 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:59PM (#4917017) Journal
    Lets face it, some of us have never read the book, so nothing about the movie can be much of a disappointment for us. My self I loved it and the Gollum character was the best peice of comedy I have seen this year. The overall story line seemed to cary forward from FoTR, with out leaving you wondering what else may have happened. The battle scenes were great. Like last time I cannot wait to see the final installment, as I was left feeling, it cannot be over yet.

    And for those of you that have read the books. You too can have your opinions, these here are mine. It is my favorite movie of the year, and I personally feel it should get movie of the year in at least some of the award categories.
  • by gauche ( 201468 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:59PM (#4917020)
    Agreed.


    Saw it at 12:05 this morning and am totally torn -- more so than with the last movie -- between my appreciation for the good qualities of the film, which are not insubstantial, such as the cinematography & camera work, the sets, the costumes, colors, designs, props, and (most of the) editing, and my loyalty for the story that is (supposedly) behind the thing.


    Tempted to rant. Not gonna.


    Ah, screw it.


    The problem wasn't the omission of material but the addition of entire subplots that have nothing to do with the plot. You know which parts I'm talking about.


    And if Arwen kills the King Nazgul in the third movie, which I think they're trying to build up to, I'm gonna kick somebody.


    Probably myself.

  • by Galvatron ( 115029 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:08PM (#4917101)
    2 years? The last movie is coming out next year. Maybe there'll be another post 6 months after that for the DVD. After that, it'll be a totally worthless topic. I think giving LOTR its own topic would be fairly useless.
  • try Carnage Blender [carnageblender.com]. Sorry, it's not explicitly tolkein based, except to the extent that all modern fantasy is influenced by him. But it does have mithril. :)
  • Angband - FYI (Score:5, Interesting)

    by The_Shadows ( 255371 ) <thelureofshadows.hotmail@com> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:12PM (#4917132) Homepage
    For anyone who may or may not be curious, Angband was Morgoth/Melkor's dark fortress in the Silmarillian. Morgoth was Sauron's boss, so that should give you an idea of the level of villany that went on in the place.

    On a side note, I bought my ticket last night for the first non-sold-out showing today.... at 9:50 PM. Of course, I'm looking forward to seeing it on the 26th more, so I can see it with loved ones.
  • by azav ( 469988 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:15PM (#4917158) Homepage Journal
    What I want to know about Peter Jackson is "what is it about him that makes his works so utterly astonishing?"

    Truly uplifting and inspiring.
  • Re:Help (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Exmet Paff Daxx ( 535601 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:20PM (#4917208) Homepage Journal
    Well as far as the ringbearer goes, the solution there is just as obvious. Make a rat the ringbearer by gluing the One Ring to the back of a rat. The rat can't reach the ring to fulfill his temptation. Put the rat in a bag and distance it from the eagle by a rope.

    Now as far as Sauron detecting the ring, remember he can only find it when someone's wearing it. Now also remember that it takes five minutes to get from the Black Gate to Mount Doom. Barely enough time to react. The Nazgul would have been stuck full of elven arrows, helpless, and Sauron can't fly.

    No, it's pretty obvious that Gandalf was suicidal or evil.
  • by halo8 ( 445515 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:21PM (#4917214)
    Well.. Rather than be part of the Problem

    Ill be part of the Solution..

    IF any one has any Logo Designs of their own.. Email them to me and i will post them on a site for votes. (ill post URL when i get home from work)
  • by shiffman ( 118484 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:33PM (#4917340) Homepage
    On the contrary, listening to his commentary on the extended edition of FotR and the supplementary material makes it clear (to me, anyway) that he knows, understands and respects the material very well. I was stunned to discover just how well.

    In the commentary, he discusses in detail the reasons for most of the alterations he made. And most of these can be described as "the pacing just wouldn't work in a film", a point of view with which I agree.

    What comes across on the DVDs is that this was a labor of love by everyone involved and that they were determined to translate the story to film in a way that does it justice.

    Accuse Jackson of anything you like. But ignorance or disinterest? Not a chance.
  • Re:Some links (Score:2, Interesting)

    by plumpcow ( 635275 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:36PM (#4917365)
    The best site I've found for movie reviews is Rotten Tomatoes. This site compiles reviews from all over the net/newspapers. This rating of LOTR:The Two Towers [rottentomatoes.com] fires me up. No choice but to leave work early today!!
  • Re:ents... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by swb ( 14022 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:37PM (#4917372)
    The Minneapolis Star Tribune said they looked like the Asparagus from Veggie Tales.
  • by sketerpot ( 454020 ) <sketerpot&gmail,com> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:44PM (#4917436)
    This reminds me of an idea which I think is a good one: communal movie theaters. Run mostly by volunteers in spare time, so the expenses are low, and sales of tickets go to buy the next movie.

    This may sound implausible, but it actually works great in at least one place. In my town (granted, a quite small and out-of-the-way one) the movie theater couldn't make enough profit to stay in business, so now it is volunteer-run. This leads to a general lack of excessive commercials (just a few previews) and the prices are lower than most places. You can watch a movie and get a small drink and popcorn for $5.00.

    Now doesn't that sound like the kind of thing you'd like in your area?

  • by SablKnight ( 205665 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:49PM (#4917476)
    I saw the movie last night at midnight; I was both very excited and very worried. I was not dissappointed. Most of your points are valid, but I do have to comment on them.

    Gimli - Yeah, too much comic relief. I didn't have a problem with him lagging behind on the run, but it should have been because he's naturally slower, not because he was tired. I think that was in the book. Also, I seem to remember him having a problem finding armor that fit in the book as well, but all in all, too much comedy.

    Frodo and Sam - yeah, the sidetrip to Osgiliath was a little unnecessary. This was what I was most afraid of going in. But I think it worked, just not exactly like the book. I was really worried about Faramir, but if you think about it, he made the choice that his brother could not. That does make him the stronger one. His was a good performance in my opinion.

    Aragorn's fall - this too, I could have done without.

    Eowyn - I thought this was pretty much the way it should have been. Aragorn wouldn't give her the time of day in the book, IIRC.

    Ninja Ents - I do recall there being a massive battle with the Ents in Isengard. It just wasn't part of the main text, it was related by Merry and Pippin after the fact. Ents did stomp orcs, throw rocks, and get set on fire. And in the end they did open the dams.

    Gollum/Smeagol. I did like this. At first, I didn't like the way Gollum was rendered. It was almost too realistic, he seemed more 3d than the actors, since they were in a very harsh light and he seemed more rounded out based on how he was rendered. But if you compare the visuals of Gandalf coming through the pass at the end, it was actual footage and seems just as unrealistic, so I can live with it. The psychology was spot-on though.

    Other stuff - I think that the 'exorcism' could have been done better. Theoden should have regained some skin tone and lost some wrinkles, but his beard and nails should have stayed unkempt until he got cleaned up. Gandalf was perfect, if not in the picture enough. There should have been no elves at Helm's Deep other than Legolas; I don't think there was any reason for this at all. And if anybody had sent them, it should have been Galadriel, not Elrond.

    One more comment...

    The problem is: The first one stayed [largely] true to the book and really felt like it was obviously saying, "Fuck holywood, we're going to make this one right." This one feels much more like, "Hey, we made a really successful movie, so we are God. Let's fuck with whatever we need to to get the holywood weaned audience in and happy." The stupid thing is, the first one was so good exactly because they DIDN'T pander to holywood style.

    Since all three movies were shot at once, this was a decision made long before the success of the first movie was known. Doing the middle of a trilogy is always going to be difficult for a number of reasons already presented by many people, and the storyline did need some tweaking. That said, some things did seem added just for the hell of it, with no real intent to further the storyline. Anyway, I've said enough for now...

    SablKnight

  • Re:So... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by the gnat ( 153162 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:51PM (#4917491)
    For the purists: I'm going to have to re-read the book, but Jackson does make some big changes to plot (far bigger in the plot-sense than substitutiing Arwen in or eliminating Tom Bombadil).

    Oddly, I thought many of these improved the movie. It made it into a more coherent whole than it otherwise could have been, and emphasized some themes that are harder to pick out of the books.

    I think I liked it better in some ways. It looked gorgeous, there was less exposition, and the characters just keep getting better.

    The Ents, in fact, were one of the only things that didn't really do much for me. That and the winged steed- I had high expectations for that, and they just weren't fulfilled for some reason.
  • by barawn ( 25691 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:52PM (#4917506) Homepage

    Ninja Ents: Was is just me or did the Ents ONLY redirect the river Isen in the book? The whole "Ents stomp!" fight was just unnecessary and left the already underexplained race feeling like some cheesy Disney reject. The book builds them up in to stately, dignified, sad characters who act in their own way. The movie abandons all of that. Granted, you have to make cuts for time, but cut the holywood added big Ent fight and leave the depth of character stuff.


    Note: I haven't seen the movie yet, but I did just reread the book.

    The Ents are a fair amount more destructive. They only redirect the river Isen to clear Isengard AFTER they've already routed Saruman's army and restricted him to Orthanc. They redirect the Isen to wash Isengard clean.

    In addition, the Huorns (which Merry and Pippin say look basically like Ents) are extremely violent - they basically eat what's left of the Orc army at Helm's Deep. Treebeard himself just shreds a good portion of Isengard's gates, etc. right away. Men they let live, but Orcs they killed.

    I wouldn't say the Ents were that "stately" once they get roused in the book. They just literally shredded Isengard. Merry and Pippin recount it as being terrifying, watching Treebeard rip apart stone as if it was tissue paper. "The Ents are about to wake up, and discover they are strong." Gandalf wasn't kidding when he said that.
  • by Mu*puppy ( 464254 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @05:13PM (#4918155)
    Why did we need to turn Faramir in to an exact clone of his brother, Boromir, rather than leave him the way he was written as the ultimately stronger of the two? OK, so not a lot happens with them, that translates well to the screen, in the book. Even so, do we really need cliche'd holywood crap?

    This points to something that has kinda gotten to me throughout the both movies thusfar, actually. In many ways, the presentation of 'big bad-ass characters' has been, well... too 'humanized.' Aragorn has more self-doubt (and more doubt concerning himself and Arwen), Elrond gets just... petty, at times, Frodo is too scared (he -stabs- at the Witch King on Weathertop, dammit, that takes balls), Faramir too much like Boromir, King Theoden too 'wussy' (though the alternative presentation of his 'dottard' state being a semi-possession was 'refreshingly different'), etc.

    To be short, much of the Lord of the Rings is about characters who are 'beyond the normal mortal.' Aragorn kicks ass, because he's a descendant of Numenor (and has remnants of elven blood kicking around in him), he's been around for -much- longer than he looks (slower aging). King Theoden doesn't magically throw off his age, he stands up straight and proud once more, says 'It's time to go kick some ass', and goes and does it. Many of the characters in Lord of the Rings kick ass in the books, because they're 'better than the average human.' In the movies, Peter Jackson brings then 'down a notch' to make them more 'human,' more easy to relate with for Joe Average. While it makes things more 'consumer friendly' in the movie marketplace, it ends up detracting for those who are more... I dunno, 'practiced' in reading, writing, visualizing, etc. "fantasy." I'm one person with my own views, but dammit, I like characters who are "more kick-ass than thou" now and then. It means more to me for Frodo cry out 'Elbereth!' and take a stab at the Witch King, than for me to 'understand' him as he cowers in fear. True, in the same circumstance I'd most likely do the latter, but dammit, I can always hope that I can be better, that I can be defiant in the face of something that could eat my soul for an appetizer.

    Rohan: Rohan in general was far too 'wussified' for me. They -did- have a number of well-trained, well-equipped soldiers, they weren't just 'taking it in the nads' from the skirmishes to the west, Helm's Deep had been manned, provisioned and fortified by a clan-chief in that region, and most of all, they didn't need no help from no elves, dammit.

    In regard to the previous point and this one, take the example of Theoden:
    Movie Theoden: "I'm a possessed dottard." "Oooh, I feel better..." Gandalf & Aragorn: "Good, now go kick Saruman's ass, he's been asking for it." Theoden: "Ummmm, no. Helm's Deep is good, we'll be safe there." At Helm's Deep: (to the crowd) "They'll break on this fortress like water!" (to Aragorn in private) "My people suck." "Umm... retreat!" (repeat 2 times) Later, Aragorn: "Come on, dammit, let's go kick some ass together." Theoden: "Well, gonna die anyway... why not?"
    Book Theoden: "I'm a dottard." "Ooh, I feel better..." Gandalf & Aragorn: "Good, now go kick Saruman's ass, he's been asking for it." Theoden: "Huzzah! Women, children and old farts to the mountains, everyone else follow me!" On the road: "Y'know, many thousand against us, I bet we'd do better in Helm's Deep, let's go there." At Helm's Deep: "Show 'em what you're made of, we're Rohan, dammit!" Later, to Aragorn: "I'm king and all, but dammit, I wanna -fight-. Yeah, we may die, but I'm gonna go out and kick some ass in the morning. You wanna come with?" Aragorn: "Schweet..."

    The trend seems to have gone towards 'the flawed hero,' in fantasy, sci-fi movies/books/etc. The Lord of the Rings was written before the flawed hero was the 'in thing' to feature. The movies have been visually stunning and all around good, but I can't help but feel almost 'let down' by the portrayal of the characters themselves. I don't care if I don't have Numenorian blood, I don't care if I'm not an elf or dwarf, or similiarly, I don't care if I'm from Krypton, so long as there is someone who is one of the above, even if only in a story, then I can look up to hope of something better, even if that something will never be in my own reach...

  • Re:Midnight showing (Score:3, Interesting)

    by aslagle ( 441969 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @06:03PM (#4918529)

    Okay, so this is a bit offtopic, but I thought I'd speak to your pizza story.

    When I was in the military, this type of information was usually marked as unclassified, but sensitive. What that meant was, even if the enemy couldn't get a hold of actual documents that listed what 'Operation X' was, they could probably deduce a lot by finding out who was activated, how many extra planes were coming in to the airbase, etc.

    The idea was that just because it was unclassified didn't mean it was okay to tell it to everybody around.

    I know, way off topic, but your pizza story just brought it back.

  • by Nermal ( 7573 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @07:02PM (#4919072) Homepage
    Originally posted to IMDB LOTR Message Board:
    I have been really, honestly surprised by the number of positive reviews that this film has been getting. Not because I think it's a bad film (though even in that respect I think it pales in comparison to the first movie), but because after a more-or-less true retelling of "Fellowship.." it was a lousy adaptation. Below is my review of the movie. Please read it BEFORE writing me off as just another ringnut who can't stand the slightest deviation from the book. And I wonder: does _anyone_ else feel the same way that I did?

    ------------
    A few disclaimers:

    First, I have enormous respect for the effect of Tolkien's work despite the fact that, to be honest, his writing style doesn't do much for me.

    Second, I loved the first movie. It really brought the book to life for me. The changes PJ made were forgivable because, like having Arwen save Frodo instead of another elf (really just a cheap way to get Liv Tyler more screentime), they didn't particularly alter the plot or the nature of the characters.

    Third, I was annoyed with people who slammed the first movie for whatever little quibble they could come up with. I wanted these movies to be great and get no satisfaction out of reporting otherwise.

    But with this second installment it seems that Jackson and co have decided to throw Tolkien's book out the window in favor of their own screenwriters in far more detrimental ways than before. Again, I am not one of those "it differed from the book by a sentence and is therefore crap" people. But there are limits to how much one can change before such changes become audacious and it matters whether or not the changes are improvements. In interviews, Peter Jackson has acknowledged that he thought the books were too "dense" and that they needed to be "simplified" for the average person who was unfamiliar with Tolkien. In the same interview, his justification for all this is that "there is a lot of money at stake here". So much for PJ being our savior from the Hollywood infection.

    The sad part is that his 'simplifications' don't even work. During the beginning of the movie, I was trying to watch it as someone who had never read the book (which was not so difficult as it had been some time since I had) and was already disappointed. Characters are introduced too quickly, plotlines are rushed... and the changes this time around are far from trivial.

    -- SPOILERS BELOW --

    Of my wife and I's three favorite characters, only Eowyn, who is actually played quite well, is spared. Poor Gimli has been reduced to comic relief and does little more than fall off horses, be the subject of height jokes and axe people in the groin (yes, the film actually sinks this low). But Faramir fares worst. Apparently the average, non-tolkien-reading person off the street can't grapple with a concept as complex as a man who shows the wisdom to, unlike his brother, see the ring for what it is and not try to take it. No, in this version we are given the 'simplified' Faramir, who does try to take the ring and deliver it to his father as a gift (how is the story improved by this?). It takes a close call with a Nazgul (another event that never appears in the book) and Samwise spelling it out to him for the 'simplified' Faramir to actually let the ringbearer go. Simplified, or just plain simpleton? The worst part is that this change does absolutely NOTHING for the plot! Sam and Frodo still end up parting ways with Faramir and Faramir is still on his way to defend Gondor. The only difference is that anyone who has read the book and loved the character of Faramir is now disgusted with what we've been given instead.

    I said that was the worst part. Actually, I lied. The worst part is that there are numerous scenes like this. A completely new, ill-contrived subplot involving Aragorn and Arwen wastes time by doing nothing but giving yet more screentime (now in a story that the character isn't even meant to appear in) to a Mabeline-laden Liv Tyler and then taking us back to exactly where we started (unless PJ ends up messing with the characters in even more tasteless ways in the next film). The 'simplified' ents, rather than noticing that a huge chunk of their forest has been hewn down, initially refuse to take part and have to be manipulated by Pippin into going to Isengard before doing anything about it. The 'simplified' Gollum/Smeagol doesn't just have conversations with himself, he uses cartoonish visual devices like peeking from behind alternating sides of a tree in order to help the poor, stupid (but lucrative) audience keep up with which side is talking. Sadly, I could go on.

    I felt alienated and even betrayed by this movie. It would have been much better if the first film had been lousy, or at least not so true to the book. At the time, I wasn't expecting much else. But now I feel like after being led to expect a true-ish adaptation I have instead been handed something more Jackson than Tolkien. When I first read The Two Towers, I longed to see the battle of Helm's Deep on screen. When I saw Jackson's "Fellowship.." I had faith that it could really happen. Never in my wildest imaginings would I have expected to be contemplating leaving the theater in the middle of it. The thought actually crossed my mind that 'maybe the whole thing is really just a dream from which I'll wake up and then go see the real movie'. My wife, who is the real Tolkien fan of the family and had just finished re-reading the book, was left literally in tears.

    For those who are interested, below is the most complete list of major (ie not just nitpicking about lines added or sideways glances omitted) changes that we could put together. And again, it wouldn't matter so much if every single one of them weren't, in my opinion, either unnecessary or simply inferior to their counterparts in the book. The fact that, because of the popularity of these movies, the Jackson versions of these characters and events will for many people become "The Two Towers" more than the Tolkien versions only adds insult to injury.

    - Gandalf literally exorcises Saruman from possession of Theoden. Why is banging Theoden's head against his chair so much more dramatic than subduing Grima who, in the book was the one through which Saruman exerted control.
    - Faramir, a noble and wise character in the book, is here really no different than Boromir. The only thing that differentiates them is luck. Unlike Boromir, Faramir gets ahold of himself when he still has time to do something about it.
    - Theoden is much less heroic at Helm's Deep and has to be coaxed into doing anything (usually by Aragorn). Like Faramir, he is a watered-down version of Tolkien's character, as though Jackson felt that every other heroic character from the book had to be emasculated in order to make Aragorn look good.
    - Gimli is reduced to bumbling comic relief except for one added-in scene where he joins Aragorn for one of his patented "me unscathed against 3-million baddies" fights. Only this one is even LESS believable than those in the first movie (which due to the excellent fight choreography I could actually suspend disbelief for)
    - New subplot with dog riders attacking the people of Rohan en route to Helm's deep, Aragorn's "death" and Arwen's (apparent) decision not to stay with him.
    - Elves show up to announce their alliance with the humans and save the day at Helm's Deep (????)
    - The women and children of Rohan are kept in Helm's deep instead of another keep in the mountains, apparently for no other reason than to give us lots and lots (and lots) of shots of women and children crying during the fight. Eowyn is therefore there at the battle, but neither fighting nor having been given stewardship over her people.
    - Ents have to be tricked by Pippin to decide to to do anything about Saruman. Why? Pippin and Merry get their moments of glory later on. Was PJ just impatient?
    - No Shelob *
    - Gandalf does not confront Saruman (he's never even at Isengard) *
    - Gandalf and co never receive the Palantir from Orthanc (black, spherical seer stone thing) *

    * = this may just have been moved to the beginning of the third movie, but as it is, we only get through half the book.
  • by First Person ( 51018 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @07:42PM (#4919295)

    Hmmm...This makes me wonder if we'll see the Silmarillion on film. Given all the revenue so far, it's certainly possible.

  • by KKin8or ( 633073 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @09:22PM (#4919860)
    The 'simplified' Gollum/Smeagol doesn't just have conversations with himself, he uses cartoonish visual devices like peeking from behind alternating sides of a tree in order to help the poor, stupid (but lucrative) audience keep up with which side is talking.

    He's not peeking around different sides of a tree-- he's sitting in exactly the same place. The only thing that changes is the camera angle. PJ is using the camera to drive home the point that Gollum/Smeagol is a divided personality. When he says "our precious" he really means "our". I thought it was a very clever way of doing it, and lent very well to the character development of Gollum (he had the most of any character in this movie, I think, and I think I like the movie Gollum better than I liked the book Gollum).

    The reason it really feels like two separate people is because PJ violates one of the rules of cinematography-- crossing the "line" (I don't remember exactly what it's called, but if there are two people talking to one another, there's an imaginary line between them. In order to not confuse the audience, the camera should never cross this "line" when switching between shots of one and the other). By switching between shots from one side of the line and the other, it makes it feel as if there are two Gollums, facing one another. The most movement Gollum does to facilitate this is perhaps a slight turn of his head in a different direction. Otherwise, the switching is all done by the camerawork.

    In response to your other comments, I agree with your disappointment about Faramir. It was my one real dislike about the movie. As a whole, though I enjoyed it.

  • Re:My own review (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @09:58PM (#4920063)

    Hmmm... sonny, take this oldster's words to heart - I've done both. Barbie dolls have their place, but they're typically so used to having the world do everything for them that it translates directly over into the bedroom too. Not to mention that the norms have **nothing** to talk about when it's all over. Who really want a girl who regards everything geeky as boring or stupid? Geek girls rule.

  • by Wraithlyn ( 133796 ) on Thursday December 19, 2002 @07:57AM (#4921888)
    Well, I just got back from the movie. Let me just start with WOW!!! and go from there. As I did with Fellowship last year, I re-read The Two Towers the week before the movie, so as to have a fresh image in mind for a comparison... and here it is.

    There will be ***MAJOR SPOILERS*** as I will be discussing the movie in depth... this is not intended as a review of the film's strengths and weaknesses, but rather a description of how the movie differs from the novel. I am not some zealous purist who hates any small differences.. I love how Jackson is adapting them, but I think the changes are an interesting discussion in themself.

    -

    *** MAJOR TWO-TOWERS MOVIE SPOILERS BEGINNING ***

    -

    Still with me? Good.

    The movie opens with a replay of the Balrog scene from Fellowship, only this time we follow Gandalf on his plunge into the abyss of Khazad-dum. My jaw was literally gaping for the entire sequence. If someone asks me what the coolest sequence I have EVER seen in a film is, I will name this one without hesitation. Gandalf soars downwards after his sword, Glamdring, takes it from the air, and starts grappling and hewing the Balrog as they continue to fall. This is Mithrandir, the grey pilgrim, greatest of the eternal Istari, in full glory.

    We cut to Frodo, who seems to have been dreaming of the Gandalf sequence. Sam and him are lost in the Emyn Muil, and they sense they are not alone. There is some tension between them, Frodo is weary and irritable. I thought Elijah Wood's Frodo was a bit of a single note performance in the first film, but now I see he was merely establishing the baseline for Frodo's descent into a paranoid, obsessed nutbag. Good stuff.

    We see shots of the orcs carrying Merry and Pippin, and Aragorn and company in close pursuit. Merry pulls his Lorien clasp off with his teeth and spits it away from an orc back instead of running off and dropping it like in the book. (You really don't see the Orc company stop at all until they reach the edge of Fangorn) Lots of comic relief at Gimli's expense, showing him having trouble keeping up with the other two.

    We see an early shot of Edoras, setting up the listless, paralyzed Theoden and the venomous Grima Wormtongue, and see Eomer get exiled.

    After an argument among the orcs involving eating the hobbits, Merry and Pip start to crawl away, when the riders of Rohan launch a surprise assault into the heart of the orcs, instead of the protracted herding and encircling described in the novel. Merry and Pippin crawl to freedom during the assault, instead of being carried out by Grishnak... although Grishnak does pursue them into Fangorn, and gets crushed by Treebeard. Treebeard takes them directly to Gandalf (although we don't see him yet). I've read some complaints about the Ents (even one calling them the 'Jar-Jar' of the movie), but I don't know what the problem is, I thought they were great. Slow and ponderous, just like the book.

    Frodo and Sam are asleep when Gollum pounces on them, as opposed to the book where they ambushed HIM when he climbed down the cliff. They subdue him, the elven rope burns him, and Frodo extracts his promise. There's a nice sequence of him leading them through the Dead Marshes. Gollum is un-fricken-believably amazing. He steals every scene he's in. His schizophrenic arguments with himself are just brilliantly done. Imagine a naked Steve Buscemi alternately imitating a kitten and then a snake. No wait, don't do that. Don't EVER do that. How a creature so wretched and deceitful can win the compassion and pity of the entire audience is a minor miracle. You really feel sorry for this creature that is so helplessly and violently torn between two natures. An Oscar deserves to be given for this performance, somehow. Don't know if he technically qualifies as an actual actor, but he's got my vote. :)

    Aragorn and co. meet up with Eomer and learn of the orc slaughter, and are given 2 horses. This part is very faithful to the book. They find the burial mound, and track the hobbits' trail into Fangorn. They encounter Gandalf, think he is Saruman and actually attack him, he just shrugs it off without trying. Otherwise, this part was very faithful to the book.. with him barely remembering the name Gandalf, etc. They leave Fangorn, meet Shadowfax, and head for Edoras.

    There are many shots interspersed of Merry and Pippin being carried by Treebeard, with lots of wonderful dialogue straight from the book.

    Frodo, Sam, and Gollum arrive at the Black Gates. Army of evil men entering. Cave trolls working the gate mechanism, nice touch :) Sam slips and falls down, and they are almost discovered, but Frodo covers them with his cloak and they are mistaken for a rock. Gollum persuades them to try his secret way and they leave.

    Gandalf, Aragorn and co. arrive at Edoras. Gandalf 'excorcises' Saruman's spirit from Theoden while Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas beat the crap out of the guards bare-handed. This part bears little resemblance to the book, with Gandalf throwing Theoden back into his throne forcefully several times, it reminded me a bit of his fight with Saruman in the first movie. After, they throw Wormtongue down some stairs and he leaves. Some shots of Theoden grieving his son and despairing about the state of the world. Some arguing over what to do, Theoden decides to empty the city and head to Helm's Deep. Theoden comes across as stronger (and perhaps more headstrong) than he does in the book at this point. In the book, Gandalf advises Theoden to go to Helm's Deep. In the movie, Theoden orders it of his volition, in fact Gandalf is against it and calls it a trap.

    A bunch of dream/flashback sequences about this point heightening the doomed romance of Aragorn and Arwen, Elrond trying to convince each of them in turn to drop it. Some shots of Elrond and Galadriel discussing (telepathically) whether to leave Middle-Earth alone to its fate.

    Around here is the first large departure from the plot of the novel. The refugees from Edoras are attacked by Warg Riders en route to Helm's Deep. Eowyn and the refugees flee while the men deal with the attack. In the ensuing battle (which is very cool) Aragorn, stuck to a Warg, is thrown over a cliff and presumed dead. Of course, he's not, he's just floating in the river, gets washed up on shore, and nuzzled back to life by the ghost of Arwen in a romantic horse scene. Yeah, I said that. I really didn't think the whole Aragorn getting separated thing was neccesary, but it didn't bother me either. I wonder if they added this action sequence to offset the subtraction of Shelob's Lair? It even has the common element of the hero being presumed dead.

    Frodo and Sam witness the attack of Faramir's company on the Southrons, complete with a pair of Oliphaunts. Very cool. They are seized by Faramir's men, bound, and taken to their hidden waterfall hideout at Henneth Annun. Lots of talking about the Fellowship and Boromir and such. (although Faramir never mentions just HOW he knows Boromir is dead) Frodo lies to Faramir, says Sam and him are alone (he admits Gollum is a companion they met on the road in the novel) but then later Frodo admits he's their guide when he intervenes at the Forbidden Pool to help them capture Gollum instead of kill him.

    Initially, this is very faithful to the book, but then, probably the biggest change of all occurs: Faramir tells them the Ring will go to Gondor, and they are dragged forcefully to Osgiliath, which is under attack. I have to say honestly I did NOT like this change.. it seems like a core change to one of the main characters of the last two books. Faramir resists the Ring in the book, in fact he tells them he would not take the Ring if he found it lying by the road. Denethor and eldest son Boromir were desperate to save Gondor, and thus easily swayed by the power of the Ring, but Faramir was of a more pure heart. I don't know why Peter Jackson decided we needed another Boromir figure... I mean, the Ring corrupts, we GET it already!

    Helm's Deep prepares for the siege. Lots of very effective shots of children and elderly arming for brutal combat. Aragorn returns from his invented detour, spies the approaching army, and enters the Deep. At the last second, a company of Elvish archers led by Haldir arrives! This of course is not in the book.. the prologue calls it the Last Alliance of Men and Elves for a reason, the species are estranged and the Elves dwindle and fade. But I don't care, I loved it anyway. It's almost like the Lothlorien Elves were pissed they didn't get to slaughter the Orcs pursuing the Fellowship out of Moria like in the book (anyone see the storyboard sequence on the DVD for that? Oh.. if only they shot that..), so they decided to pitch in on Helm's Deep instead.

    The Entmoot begins. This is a large difference in chronology from the book... where the Ents are already at Isengard in time to see Saruman's army depart. Here, they are discussing what to do as the assault on Helm's Deep begins.

    Back at beseiged Osgiliath, Sam makes an impassioned speech to Faramir about how Boromir was driven mad by his desire for the Ring, and attacked Frodo whom he swore to protect, which seems to give Faramir some pause. A flying Nazgul nearly takes the Ring from Frodo, Sam saves him, then Frodo goes all psycho Sting-in-your-face on Sam for a minute. Faramir decides to let them go, despite this meaning his own life is forfeit, so I guess he kinda redeems his character a bit in that sense.

    The Helm's Deep battle itself is awesome. The overall progression of the battle is exactly what I remember from the book, and many details have made it in very well, including to my delight Gimli and Legolas's death count competition. I have read people smugly pointing out how it only takes up a dozen pages in the novel and gets more than a half hour of screen time here, but that's a silly comparison. The battle described in the book is epic in scope and takes all night long, they did a phenomenally perfect job of capturing this.

    The Entmoot concludes, and unlike the book, the Ents decide NOT to take any action, despite Merry's persistance. However, Merry convinces Treebeard to drop them off near Isengard, that wascally wittle hobbit. When Treebeard sees the devastation surrounding Isengard (he was already aware in the book), he lets out a piercing bellow, and the forest erupts instantly with angry Ents. So much for not being hasty, but I digress.

    The battle of Helm's Deep is going badly, the wall is breached, Haldir dies in Aragorn's arms. When they have been forced to retreat to their last holdout, the innermost keep of the Hornburg, surrounded by a sea of enemies, Theoden and Aragorn lead a final, thrilling, mounted charge down the exterior ramp. Then Gandalf arrives with the dawn, and several thousand horsemen. The White Rider leading the charge of Light down the slope into Saruman's army nearly topped the Balrog scene for me. I want a giant poster of that singular, breathtaking image, the two armies colliding with the battered remains of Helm's Deep in the background. Beautiful, extraordinary stuff. No army of Huorns show up to mop up the retreating Orcs, but I couldn't care less.. too much tree action gives a deus ex machina feeling anyway.

    Speaking of tree action, the Ents whack the crap out of everything still moving at Isengard, and flood the whole ring. We don't get to see Gandalf and co. confront Saruman and meet up with Merry and Pippin, but I'm glad.. a long march to Isengard after the spectacular triumph of Helm's Deep? I don't think so. However it does have the effect of severely weakening Merry and Pippin's roles in this movie... perhaps that's why Jackson had them more directly involved with the Ents decision.

    Meanwhile, Frodo, Sam, and Gollum approach Mordor, and we hear evil Cartman, er.. I mean Gollum, conspire to let "her" kill the other two... but the movie ends before they reach Shelob's Lair. Now that I have seen how powerful Helm's Deep is, I understand and am glad they have saved this for the start of the next movie, for an eager audience instead of a drained one.

    Well... closing thoughts... Another year? AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gnight.

"Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love." -- Albert Einstein

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