Rick Berman Doesn't Know Why Nemesis Tanked 1210
Steve Krutzler writes "Star Trek producer Rick Berman broke his silence today on the debacle that was the North American box office for STAR TREK NEMESIS. The film grossed $18.5 million in its opening weekend in mid-December, the lowest of any TREK bow, and its current domestic total stands below even that of the much-lambasted STAR TREK V. Read more at TrekWeb. Berman says he doesn't know why the movie failed and the future of more TREK movies is uncertain."
Killing Data (Score:1, Interesting)
Maybe Star Trek is dying? (Score:5, Interesting)
Because It Had Been Done Before.... (Score:5, Interesting)
It was retelling of Wrath of Khan without the great characters.
Just as "Generations" sucked, where they tried to put every element into one movie (destroy the ship, cold character gets emotions, major character dies, etc.), so did Nemesis.
Surprised (Score:1, Interesting)
This was only a few weeks ago; it was a second-run theater but it was PACKED.
Obvious? (Score:5, Interesting)
That, and the movie before that, Star Trek - Insurrection wasn't good at all. Remember: Once fooled, shame on you. Twice fooled, shame on me.
The public might be stupid, but not THAT stupid
well I didn't see it but.... (Score:2, Interesting)
What made them think it was good? (Score:5, Interesting)
2) The actors had all aged a good decade since the last episode and aren't as appealing anymore.
3) The plot had more holes than swiss cheese.
4) Better movies were released at the same time.
5) The previous movie was going downhill, why see another if the previous one wasn't worth paying for.
It jumped the Shark (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Easy (Score:4, Interesting)
That doesn't explain a bad opening weekend. It 'sucking' (geez, is that the most sophisticated opinion of the movie you could muster?) would explain a sharp falloff after opening weekend.
The truth of the matter is that it didn't have a lot of people rushing to theaters to go see it. It kind of fell off the radar with all the other movies out.
Personally, I can't help but think people wanted to avoid crowds. You know those LoTR fans, casting spells and rolling dice and shit.
Nemesis was doomed before it was conceived. (Score:1, Interesting)
Its predecessors were not.
Star Trek 7, 8, and 9 were miserable, hippy-like mockeries of Star Trek. Star Trek 9 might as well have had a soundtrack by the Grateful Dead, it was so frickin' hippy-infested. They may as well have had the uniforms replaced with tye-dye hemp, and had Crusher start prescribing some ganja for "medical purposes."
Rick Berman doesn't realize why Nemesis failed? Rick Berman and his "I sure do love beating this dead horse" mentality made Nemesis fail. He's a bit like Saturday Night Live -- If he doesn't have a good idea, he just resurrects some tired old idea that used to be good, and does it a quarter million times until he finally thinks of something.
Re:I'd say the future of Trek movies *is* certain (Score:5, Interesting)
Unfortunately, Firefly got cancelled. It was 10x better than Nemesis or Enterprise. And there are no mid-season sci-fi replacements.
Nemesis (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Dumb story? (Score:2, Interesting)
Jeez, there was a new Star Trek movie? (Score:4, Interesting)
Nemesis failed for three reasons (Score:4, Interesting)
2) The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers 3) Star Wars Episode II IMAX
Now, I know Berman is thick, but to ask this question and to wonder why it happened outdoes any of the insipid things he's done since Gene's death. Paramount opened the movie smack-dab in the middle of two major, highly anticipated openings and one major "event" release (I think AOTC IMAX made more than Nemesis did, even). Berman needs to be replaced with someone who has a strong sense of SF and storytelling. J. Michael Straczynski and Harlan Ellison would be a great team to take on the franchise.
That said, I found Nemesis to be fairly strong. My expectations were low when I went in, but I was pleasantly surprised by the movie. I think it sets up a Star Trek XI that could, truly, be a massive hit (or mess), involving the TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager crews and could tie up the Romulan thread (especially considering that Scotty is still tooling around out there and Spock is still on Romulus!).
Reasons star trek is dying (Score:5, Interesting)
Why? Well, it isn't the characters, but most definately is the plot. Star Trek lacks history. It had it with TOS and TNG. Technology had advanced, and we could see that. Story lines were still based on the premise that people and aliens have feelings and personal demons to battle.
With the advent of DS9 and Voyager, Star Trek left the historical line and issues between peoples and personal demons for outrageous story lines that included the borg chasing but never defeating a small ship in the middle of no where- neglecting the history of the borg as almost undefeatable. And a space station of mixed people. So much potential in that series, but it lost because they could not create enough internal issue stories.
Star Wars had a huge following not only because of its ground breaking fx, but also because it had history. 1000 years of jedi rule. Empire that was how old? Jedi master was how old? Clone wars? Obi Wan knew Vader before The Fall? History was loud in the ears of Star Wars fans. I cared less for the post ROTJ books. I wanted more history. It was finally granted- and I was sickened.
I think another area is culture. Star Trek was a 'perfect culture' that worked well in TNG, and was still rough and being learned in TOS. But there was culture. It was neglected in the newer series. Again, DS9 had the opportunity, but the ball was dropped in favor of a huge war that left me thinking 'eh'.
I loved the culture of star wars- so many peoples, and yet corruption, love, hate, revenge, politics, all together loosely in a republic and empire. It works for me.
I think that the rules were perverted so severely in Star Trek that it wasn't funny. Suddenly in one episode the tachyon field can be adjusted to deflet energy fields, while in the next they can't stop weapons from smashing the shields to '12%' and 'surrender'. Star Wars allowed for everyone to be able to die- and the heroes are either gifted or lucky- not suddenly supremely good at manipulating technologies and even nature.
Time travel and cloaking devices should go. Why does it work here, but not there. Suddenly we can track a cloaked ship, but next time we are completly caught off guard. I understand the element of surprise, but people, come on.
Rick, Star Trek is dying because you neglected what made it great. Sure, some story lines were campy, but until the end of TNG, it worked. Culture, history were enough to keep the story fresh. But you trashed those along with technology and left it utterly unwatchable.
Re:Yeah, smart... (Score:3, Interesting)
Why is this modded Funny? It's Insightful (Score:5, Interesting)
Ask Slashdot why Nemesis failed. You just know you'll get a ton of insightful and intelligent answers out of a question like that.
I got no indication that the poster was trying to make a joke. I think Paramount, Berman and Braga would do well to listen to the fans for a change instead of ramming standard sci-fi with the Trek label slapped on down our throats. The size and imagination of the Trek fanbase is legendary. There is TONS of free information out there for them to consider. Obviously, the studio wouldn't want to take some fanboy's idea verbatim or even hire fans to provide input. All they would have to do is cruise a few forums and get an idea what the fans want. Nemesis is a classic example of what happens when a studio is completely out of touch with their fans and thinks they can figure out what the fans want more than the fans themselves.
It doesn't have to be slashdot. There are plenty of free forums where the so-called creative talent behind the Trek franchise could go cruising for inspiration and insightful analysis. After 30+ years of Trek, there's really no excuse for them the studio to get it wrong.
GMD
Yet more reasons that this film sucked (spoiler) (Score:2, Interesting)
2. Crazy Psychic Sex: Even worse, some guy sees a girl for the first time and has psychic sex with her. Doesn't make a good plot.
3. Buggys (aka toys): Ok, must they introduce a new toy in every movie? I don't think that makes sense.
4. Obvious plot continuations: Data will return, at least with spock you had to guess.
5. No character development: Picard's clone wasn't developed very well. I felt nothing for him. The sex scenes should to have been cut and turned into scenes where this character was developed. Also, the exploration of 'would Picard turned out like this if he were raised in a death camp.' Was weak and not very thought provoking.
Re:Look No Further Than The Competition (Score:2, Interesting)
Some suggestions for Mr. Berman... (Score:3, Interesting)
As a former Trekkie... (Score:5, Interesting)
The TNG Universe (and Enterprise) is formulaic, over-produced, slick to the point of featurelessness, and so politically correct it is painful to watch.
In other words, it sucks. I have not seen it; nothing in the previews gave me any sense as to why I'd want to see it.
I've been watching Trek since the original series. The original was fun, quirky, politically-incorrect for its time, and just plain fun. The dynamic of Kirk-McCoy-Spock was fun and stimulating.
TNG started off good, and sank into mediocrity, boring characters, and political correctness. The Federation had gone from being an adventure to being a boring bureaucracy filled with faceless people who remind me of white bread. DS9 had some good moments, most of which were lost in Voyager and the movies. Where is the passion, the joy of exploration, the diversity of cultures? Bah, Berman's Trek is mostly about destroying any sense of individuality or culture or faith or initiative.
Enterprise is an example of everything that is wrong with Trek. These are not bold adventurers; they are simpering fools who wouldn't last fiv minutes in the universe of Kirk and Spock. The only character I have any fondness for is the Chief Engineer, who exudes some personality (when he's allowed to).
I do not want to live in the Star Trek envisioned by Berman and Braga; in my opinion, they destroyed the series with blandness.
I think Roger Ebert nailed it (Score:5, Interesting)
" think it is time for "Star Trek" to make a mighty leap forward another 1,000 years into the future, to a time when starships do not look like rides in a 1970s amusement arcade, when aliens do not look like humans with funny foreheads, and when wonder, astonishment and literacy are permitted back into the series. Star Trek was kind of terrific once, but now it is a copy of a copy of a copy."
Re:Killing Data (Score:5, Interesting)
If you watch the last ST:TNG episode, "All Good Things..." Picard is jumping between the present, past and the future. In the future Data is alive and well other than the rediculously overdone grey streak on one half of his head.
So how would Data survive? Many ways!
- Q could bring him back easilly.
- Time travel, after all this is Sci-Fi
- Beamed out by the other Romulan ships in the area and help captive for a time for study.
- Since he uploaded himself to B4 (think Spock grabbing McCoy's head and saying "Remember!") they could potentially rebuild Data and reload him from the image stored in B4. (I can just see "Star Trek, Search for Data!")
- I suppose even the nanites which Wesley created in one of the episodes could stumble upon the wreckage and rebuild him from vaporized particles.
- And the most likely and to revive him: Random annoying Star Trek plot device.
Nemesis tanked (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Killing Data (Score:3, Interesting)
It didn't fail because they killed Data.
No they didn't. [caltech.edu] It's all an illusion.Enough Enterprise (Score:2, Interesting)
The focus needs to change. What I would like to see for the next movie is an in-depth account of the final battle with the Dominion. They could show the leadup and the actual battle from all sides (Federation, Klingon, Romulan, Cardasian, etc.).
Get away from the plodding one-on-one battles and do a full engagement.
Lack of character development (Score:2, Interesting)
Why should I care about the the latest "danger" if I know they'll just hit the reset button at the end of the movie? They couldn't even kill off a main character this time without making up some horribly improbable way to bring him back from the dead.
You're insulting the episodes. (Score:4, Interesting)
Remember when the Borg were actually scary? When the crew didn't have to blow up the ship/have Data swear/have every character do something memorable? When they actually had decent SF plots ("Cause and Effect", "The Inner Light") instead of trying to pretend it was a non-geeky action movie? See what happens when you forsake me, Berman! I said you'd come crawling back, and now you have!
Oh, the show had its stinkers, too, but I think it had a much, much higher hit rate than the movies have. I'm just going to pretend that they never mentioned the Borg after "Descent", and let them go gracefully.
--grendel drago
It didn't make sense (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the movie failed because it wasn't satisfying, nor it it seem to make much sense.
And no, I'm not talking the dumber-then-hell physics nonsense that usually permeates ST. I'm talking about the plot.
Cuts. Check IMDB for the movie's quotes. How many of those were actually in the movie? The cut out a lot of background stuff that explained why this stuff was happening, and what the character's motivations were.
For instance: That Romulan commander (woman). At first she appears she's going to be a toady for Shinzan. She was asking that Romulan admiral some pointed questions after the big ship goes to zap Earth, like she was trying to see if the admiral was going to betray Shinzan. Then, all of a sudden, she's betraying Shinzan? What? Why did she change her mind? Did we learn enough about her character to understand why she might change her mind?
Over and over the point of the movie is that people are good when they aspire to be better than themselves. That's what is supposed to make Data better than B4. It's a fine sentiment, but where is it actually shown in the movie? Saying it is fine for a book or something. But you've got to have it be a central part of the movie, or it is just a plattitude.
And how did Deanna learn to fight back against Shinzan and the Chancellor? Why didn't she do that the first time?
Oh yeah, and as for physics... Ships with impulse drive can go like 0.99c. If you decide to ram another ship, you're going to end up with a big cloud of plasma and debris, not some lame "crunch".
And the cloaking... why couldn't the Enterprise's brilliant engineers program the weapons to shoot right back at anything shooting at the ship? It doesn't matter if the Romulan ship is cloaked, it's shooting you right now! Right over there! Sheesh.
Rick Berman IS the problem. (Score:5, Interesting)
Star Trek fans have been sick of Berman for over a decade. His stewardship has done nothing but run Star Trek shows and films into the ground while Paramount marketing made it a commodity. Perhaps the failure of Nemesis will finally wake up Paramount and Rick Berman will get the boot.
It didn't matter; they'd already killed it. (Score:5, Interesting)
See, the big thing about the Next Generation series is that a lot of people really felt for the characters. They all had their own individual battles or things that made things difficult for them, even though this was supposed to be a utopian future. The ones that come to mind immediately are Data, who struggled to be human, and Geordi, who had no natural vision. And Picard, of course, with the Borg. (And his other little quirks..)
So instead of seeing some real character development over those first few movies, with each of them struggling with their impediments or against them, and triumphing over them, which is what being a hero's all about, we see them getting them handed to them deus ex machina. LaForge--bam--has these newfangled eyes. Data--bam--emotion chip got fixed. Picard... is a special case; I'll get to him in a minute.
Data, they should've done the following; stretched out the problems he had with his emotion chip. We see him responding poorly to it when he first gets it, but very quickly he overcomes this--and here's the kicker--in such a way that the audience never actually sees him overcome it. We, the audience, don't get to see this happen, and thus, we aren't able to really root for him. He has many minor struggles, but we never really see the big one, as it were.
So when Data dies in Nemesis, he's no longer the same entity we know and love; we can't even tell what emotions he's feeling in a lot of those scenes where he finds B4, because we feel no empathy for this feeling Data. To the audience, he's totally different. So when he goes bye-bye, we feel a sense of loss, but not because Data overcame all and gave of himself, but because the writers took our Data from us, and never let us get to know him before kicking him out the airlock.
LaForge, I don't really know what to say.. there just should've been more to his ocular upgrade. It just happens too quickly, and without cost.
Worf---What the heck is he doing there!?!? The fact that he's there, doing the same old job, just screams TV episode to everyone in the audience. Especially after all that he went through in DS9, regaining the respect of his fellow Klingons... to treat him like the Worf from TNG is just unacceptable.
Finally, the biggie; Picard. He's the one character that you've admired through the whole series. You sympathized with his problems with talking to kids. (Because he had to tell Wesley his father was dead.) You respected him because he was the voice of reason in times of war, conflict, strife. He's been the source of nobility in times of uncertainty. And you sympathized with him when he personally experienced what it was like to have his humanity ripped away from him by the Borg, and cried with him as he struggled to regain something of that humanity from his brother.
Then the movies started.
Generations started off the work on him by throwing him into the Nexus, and having him meet up with Kirk for some good 'ole fashuned cowboy-style fun. Okay... so it's his first movie in this role... but still, they managed to completely ruin the Guinan/Picard dynamic, and kill off his family. The former wrecked a very delicate and interesting relationship between the two; the latter destroyed something about the nobility of the man--from here-on he's lost something of his humanity, of his nobility, that his brother was providing him. Now, he just fights for the federation; his links to the average man have been severed, and he's now just another member of the military arm of the federation. This is a sad turn of events.
Next comes First Contact. One word; borg queen. Whaaaaaa...?? Okay, if it, like, explained something about why the borg were doing what they were doing, or gave us some better piece of the bigger puzzle, then okay. Instead, she's just the new voice for the borg, who has the hots for Picard. (Huh???) And Data. (Double huh????) Other than that and the fact that it's a time travel plot, though, it was the most credible of all the movies.
Then came Insurrection, and Picard's been reduced yet again. Now he's off on some planet playing hokey mind-magic... I think everyone's starting to suspect by now that Picard's really off his rocker. First his family's gone, then this borg queen shows up again, and now this mind-magic fountain of youth crap he's playing with some old hag....!?!? It's just ludicrous..! Remember how he cried after Best of Both Worlds? That's what we needed to see; him struggling with what he's lost, and trying to build on what he's gained, and instead we get.. this?!?
Why Nemesis failed is because Picard was no longer the emotionally strong man he was in the series--and yet they pretend he still is. They've torn away at what makes him tick so much that to have him act like none of this ever happened--or that he came to grips with it all while we weren't looking, and hey, no biggie, nothing changed as a result--is just insulting the audience.
So when you see Picard saying crap throw-away lines that use the words "unsafe velocities" or you see him laughing like a crazy man on the desert planet, so at ease with himself that it's beyond belief, you just can't help but realize that this isn't the same man from the series, or even the movies. This is someone completely different, who has more in common with someone like Storm from X-Men. ("Know what happens when a toad gets hit by lightening?") And that just plain sucks.
I'm not even going to bother going into Riker, Troi, Crusher, or anyone else at this point because they haven't been the focus for any of these movies anyways. The problem with the movies for TNG has been that they've just destroyed the characters we've cared about too completely.. and any time they spend on any of the other characters would certainly finish the rest of 'em off.
Berman, I hope you're reading this..
Open Letter to Berman: Rick - here's a clue! (Score:5, Interesting)
The screenplay was horrible! The writing for Voyager and TNG was wonderful. I remember plots within plots and sideplots and twists and turns.
Nemesis was so one-dimensional, it hurt my head. I kept waiting for the "retarded" Data to turn out to be Lore or for some new technology to be introduced or for Troi to get pregnant... or a million things that might have been interesting with that much raw acting talent on hand.
You gave a cast of superb actors the worst screenplay I think I have ever seen. It looked as though every interesting idea got tabled by committee or something. We ended up with a really flat uninteresting story. Whatever happend with Wesley going off with the traveler?
Where are the other members of the crystalline entity's species? How about Species 8472? How about Janeway and Picard gettig together? What about the Voyager crew on Earth.. what about the reunion therE? For crying out loud, this could have been SO cool! It just plain sucked because it didn't live up to its potential. DAMN it could have been awesome! Instead it was just disappointing.
The machine that has been Star Trek still has the capability of producing heart-pounding, thought-provoking and deeply interesting entertainment worthy of the cast and worthy of Roddenberry. Hop to it! We expect more.
- a Star Trek fan
Vortran out
Re:You're insulting the episodes. (Score:3, Interesting)
The Borg: Making all that it encoutered part of itself, ever expanding. Faceless, lacking individuality and above all ENORMOUSLY huge. -- Red China
The Federation: Defending free space, protecting free trade, espousing high minded idealism and the betterment of the individual -- The United States (free world).
The Vulcans: Perfectly logical creatures devoid of emotion in nearly all respects -- A biological reflection of the beginings of the information age.
The Klingons: Warlike and brutal, obsessed with combat and conquest. -- The Soviet Union
One reason the series is dieing out is that these sterotypes and these ways of viewing the world are vanishing as the Cold War fades from our memory. China becoming part of the world for the first time, the Russians are our friends, and the "neutral territores" i.e. the third world is disappearing rapidly.
Re:Nemesis failed for three reasons (Score:3, Interesting)
Yep, I made mention of it knowlingly, and I know it wouldn't happen, but that would be the beauty of it! Ellison and JMS working on Trek! Granted, it's only a Trekker/B5 geek's wet dream, and I can't imagine Ellison ever touching Trek again. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a nice shot in the arm for the franchise.
While I'm on the general subject: For a darker Trek, I would say getting David Fincher (Fight Club), Alex Proyas (The Crow), or Darren Aronofsky (Pi) would be a good way to go.
Again, this is all a pipedream.
Maybe the mainstream TNG fans finally grew up? (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, even though I never liked the TNG series much, most of the TNG movies were good enough for me to go see. I paid for Insurrection, I thought it was very, very weak, and that had a big effect on my not going to see Nemesis -- for whatever reason, the previews didn't make me decide I wanted to go see it enough to risk wasting my time again (on a side note, if movie trailers suck so bad that they don't tell you what the movie is about, I will not go to see the movie). I think it's likely a lot of the hard-core Trek fans like me who were left after most of the teen TNG fans lost interest felt they were screwed by Insurrection.
The bottom line is I think the people who made this movie did NOT do their homework. $52 million is nothing to sneeze at, but if you spent $70 million to make the movie (according to IMDB.com), you got screwed. If you have a small target audience, you'd better damn well limit the budget.
Maybe those same people need to WATCH the damn movies they are making (do your homework!). According to IMDB.com, Insurrection's budget was $58 million and it made a total of about $81 million. Maybe they didn't notice that Insurrection sucked and they stupidly gave the next movie a higher budget.
I think this all comes down to business, and Paramount made some bad business decisions because $52 million in revenue is not a bomb, IMHO, unless you make dot-com-like business decisions.
Re:I'd say the future of Trek movies *is* certain (Score:3, Interesting)
1) Insurrection
2) Enterprise
3) Voyager
If some friends of mine hadn't threatened bodily harm, I never would have watched it, despite being a big TOS, TNG, and DS9 fan.
The reason no one went to see it is probably the same reason I didn't want to see it. The franchise has established a solid trend of being as boring as hell. The preview made it look like more of the same. You have aimed your criticism precisely and accurately.
The movie itself was good, imho. Well, it was good for Trek. I wouldn't recommend it to non-trekkies at all. But that's a *big* step up from anything they've done recently.
Re:Maybe Star Trek is dying? (Score:2, Interesting)
HA! i rather like californians (not hollywood stars -- who are kooks no matter what) progressive, peacefull, enlightened.
What, are you some kinda ignorant, rightinst, warmongering, plutocratic, fascist republican?
Re:DS9 is the best series? (Score:5, Interesting)
Here's why I thought Nemesis failed (Score:2, Interesting)
(mostly spoiler-free) For filmmakers the only audience reaction worse than disappointment must be indifference. And I'm afraid that's exactly what I experienced after watching "Star Trek: Nemesis" this evening. I felt like I had seen almost all of it before, several times, and sadly by the end of the movie even the fates of my favorite Star Trek crew didn't seem to matter as much anymore. Four years is a long time to wait between installments and it felt like too much time had passed since their last big screen appearance. Things I had waited to see for years finally happened and I was left with an ambivalent shrug afterwards.
There were definitely some nice moments in the film, despite some stunningly weak parts of the plot which resembled non-sequiturs without explanations more than holes. And I sucessfully avoided reading spoilers about the movie so the big surprise did catch me off guard and it had emotional impact. But I was hoping for more than a mere rehash of the best Star Trek film or at least some more closure concerning the destinations of the less visible members of the crew. I have since read that those scenes were filmed, edited and then left on the cutting room floor along with Wesley Crusher's cameo. It's funny how I am starting to prefer the DVD director's cut editions of films over the versions which are initially released. To me, the additional material is usually worth some intermittent pacing and after watching a fully fleshed out story I still walk out of the cinema wanting more.
Re:I'd say the future of Trek movies *is* certain (Score:4, Interesting)
No. We need death. We need strife. We need chaos. Heroic actions that lead to horrible consequences. Ala Lord of the Rings (sorry to insult LTR by comparing it to trek). But the trek series was never very serial to begin with, so this format might not work at all. I hate the fact that the Klingons kept getting beat down by the humans. Let's face it, a warrior race, based on strong tactical skill (al Queda) facing off against a strong enemy with powerful weapons, strong moral code (for the sake of argument) (U.S.A), etc. etc....
-Chris
My dot oh two. (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, I was going to burn my mod points in this thread, but I'll give it a shot:
I think that the release date was incredibly stupid. It's almost like Paramount wanted to "bury" this movie. I have no idea why they released it when they did.
But the release date shouldn't matter. If the story is strong enough, people will go to see it over and over again. As far as I can tell, this is where Paramount fumbled this movie.
When Star Trek is good, it's about people. That's why my favorite episode is Inner Light. That's why I loved working on First Duty and Final Mission.
The script that I read for Nemesis was about people. John Logan is a HUGE fan, who knows every detail about TNG. He infused the characters and plot with detalis that would make a Trekkie drool. He understood why people cared about these characters, and told an incredible story. I still haven't seen the final cut, but everything I've read indicates that they got away from that. I have heard that on more than one occasion the director proclaimed that he didn't care about Star Trek history and continuity. It seemed like he really didn't respect the fans or the franchise, so they ended up with yet another action movie with robots and laser guns.
Sadly, I think that an action movie in space is exactly what Paramount wants.
Marketing a Star Trek movie is insanely difficult. Mainstream audiences think it's just for nerds. They think that they need to watch seven seasons of TNG to know what's going on. Paramount knows that the hardcore fans will show up no matter what, so they focus their attention on convincing the mainstream audience that they'll like this movie.
The trap they seem to fall into when they do this is to cut up the movie, take out stuff that's too "fan-specific," and focus on themes that appeal to a broader audience: babes and bombs. This usually alienates the hardcore fans, and doesn't excite mainstream audiences enough to see it more than once -- and that's where a movie makes money: on repeat sales.
The few times they've managed to hit both audiences -- Star Trek IV and Star Trek II -- they've focused people.
I'm hearing that this is the end of TNG, and it probably is. From what I've heard, some of the actors aren't interested in doing it any more, which is understandable, considering that they've been playing those characters for over 15 years.
But I don't think it's the end of Star Trek movies. TPTB aren't stupid. If they were, they wouldn't be running this franchise. I think they've just gotten away from the heart of Star Trek. If they find that heart again, and hire some very good SF writers to defibrillate it, Star Trek will be fine. There's still some life in the old girl.
Re:I'd say the future of Trek movies *is* certain (Score:3, Interesting)
Heh. (Score:2, Interesting)
-oZ
Re:Babylon 5 ROCKED! (Score:1, Interesting)
I know why it tanked! (Score:4, Interesting)
Seriously, I mean, if producers knew that the movies they were producing were going to suck, do you think they'd produce them? (Well, maybe some of them.)
So, when you take a producer, writers, and director who don't know how to make something good, they're very likely to make something awful, and that's what happened with Nemesis.
The movie had no plot. Everything that happened in the movie that might have been interesting (like the naked wedding) was glossed over for a main plot-line that didn't go anywhere. Literally. The primarly segment of the plot happened in damaged ships in the Romulan neutral zone.
And of course, the Remans were just a BAD idea. Talk about YASTPOTW! (Yet Another Star Trek Particle Of The Week.) It was a plot devices pulled out of someone's nether regions. They used it because they thought it was cool, but they never stopped to consider if it was a bad idea or try to develop it into something interesting.
I have hated the last two Star Wars movies. Lucas totally sold out, and it's completely tainted my feelings about the three movies that came before. BUT, at least we get a proper introduction to some of the creatures. I mean, we actually get to see some interesting things about the Gungans.
Of course, it's possible that I missed some of the character development. I was bored and maybe didn't pay attention well.
The bottom line is that Star Trek has been going down-hill (except maybe Enterprise, but it's got problems too) since Roddenberry died. It's a case where other people just do not understand Roddenberry's vision but are arrogant enough to believe they can continue on with it. I don't know a small fraction of what it is that made Star Trek Star Trek when Roddenberry was around, and I have a feeling that, while Berman may know a lot more, he doesn't know it all either. And by 'know', I mean 'grok'.
What the Star Trek Universe needs. (Score:4, Interesting)
How about Star Trek: Obsidian Order? A sci-fi Alias-like show that follows an agent or two from the Obsidian Order? Or how about a show from the Romulan's perspectives? I'm tired of watching a show about the high-minded Federation who is always perfect. I want to see shades of grey instead of black and white. I want to see some depth to the universe.
Re:I'd say the future of Trek movies *is* certain (Score:2, Interesting)
Voyager, while highly flawed, had what Deep Space Nine did not: An interesting premise and a blank slate. Yes, Voyager dropped the ball, too, relying on the same tired cliches that made The Next Generation get old by the end, but when it was good (which it was frequently in at least its third and fourth years), it was very, very good, and much better than Deep Space Nine. But then it got so silly after a while, I stopped watching, even though I never once respected the show less than Deep Space Nine. Enterprise I saw about one and a half episodes of--it's not for me. More of the same.
Nemesis, to bring this back on topic, didn't know what it wanted to be, so it ended up not being much of anything. The story really needed to take a stand for something. Anything! But it was vaguely a way to wrap up issues for the show, vaguely a way to get Brent Spiner out of more movies, vaguely a way to protest human cloning... (I got the feeling it probably went through a number of script revisions, some of which left remnants of good ideas behind, but none of which found a way to make the thing work.)
To make a long analysis short (too late), there was nothing vital or lively about Nemesis. It worked only on the simplest, most basic level, but was too much like an episode of the TV show. In fact, with its very closed nature, smaller emotions, and intimate scenes, it probably would have worked beautifully as a TV movie or something. But a theatrical release needs to be bigger, it needs to do more, especially when the future of the franchise is in great jeopardy. If Berman can't see this, then I agree with the others who've stated it's time for him, and possibly Star Trek itself, to move on.
actually.... (Score:2, Interesting)
Dr. Pulaski ruled (Score:4, Interesting)
The reason people stupidly prefer Dr. Crusher is because she is a likeable character, whereas Pulaski could be a real bitch at times. But she was human and she was interesting. Dr. Crusher was just like a Stepford Wife, or a 50s TV "Welcome home, Jean Luc, how was your day at work?" kind of stupid thing.
graspee
Re:Maybe Star Trek is dying? (Score:3, Interesting)
I keep hearing good things about this Starship Exeter movie - I finally followed your link to check it out...
Good thing I looked at the script before wasting any bandwidth - there's a HUGE plot hole right smack in the middle of the first page.
Jennings:
That's right Quince, the Andorians have successfully synthesized a cure for the Canopus plague.... Ten hours ago the Lexington achieved orbit of Andoria and attempted to contact their Planetary Council... There was no reply... For the last four hours Star Fleet Command has tried to contact the Council over emergency channels.... All we have received is dead air.
Garrovick:
Could the Lexington beam down a landing party?
Jennings:
Impossible. That would risk infection of the entire Andorian population... which could result in a world-wide plague of immeasurable proportions.
Doesn't anybody else notice the problem with that?! If the Andorians have the cure for this disease, how is sending a landing party down to see them going to touch off a world-wide plague? That makes no sense whatsoever!
Hopes dashed once again... this is why I never read fanfic - it seems like a good idea, but really the writing should be left to the people who created the damn universe to begin with.
Half the problem: Inconsistency (Score:3, Interesting)
Take the transporters. They slap aftermarket filters to scan for viruses and weapons, and then every episode they have to invent a reason the virus or weapon snuck through. And the reasons get loopier as the technology grows more advanced.
I don't want to even go into weapons and shielding. I just hold my ears and sing "LAlaLAlaLA" while they explain how the +4 vorpal metaphasic shield is rendered inoperable by the enemy of the week. Or how energy just seems to bounce off super enemies. (No matter how good a Knight's armor is, if you hit him with a baseball bat hard enough he WILL fly backwards.)
Second is the completely inconsistent way that all the factions in the universe end up joining the federation. Hard to build a set of diplomatic complications when everybody is buddy buddy.
Equally hard to believe are the extreme numbers of half-breeds in the crew. They tried to explain in one episode why all humaniods where so similar, but last I checked it's a pain to get a Horse and a Mule to mate and come up with viable organism. And they are decendent from the same common ancestor.
Spock they explained reasably well in Spock's World. He is an artifical freak created with a tremendous amount of Genetic Tinkering on behalf of a very high-ranking government official in the Vulcan Government. All the other half-breeds just sort of "Happened."
And the oomputers... Just read The Computers of Star Trek. Even long time fans throw their hand up at the "Technology" on that show.
Re:My dot oh two. (Score:3, Interesting)
I guess if they can't get former cast members to care enough to watch the movie, they shouldn't be surprised when the fans skip it.
For the most part, I agree with you. I'm a fan and had planned to see it, but after it opened all the fans said it sucked so I decided not to bother. They've had this franchise running for nearly 40 years now. If they can't make a movie that will interest the fans, they shouldn't bother...
Maybe someday if it airs on TV (other than TNN) I might actually watch it. Then again, maybe I won't. I'm still considering undergoing hypnotic therapy to have all memories of Trek V supressed.
ST: Renaissance - The BEST new series (Score:3, Interesting)
"Star Trek: Renaissance is a collaboratively written fan fiction project depicting events in the Alpha Quadrant after the Dominion War with an original ship and crew. The series is a mixture of political intrigue, exploration and character driven drama with a definite story arc running in the background.
A new Star Trek series written with the same industry standards as a real TV drama, but from the fans, to the fans, by the fans - most of them people who were disappointed to the lack of ingenuity in Star Trek: Voyager. Like its canon cousins, the series is written in standard script format and divided into seasons, each lasting for 26 episodes."
"The Dominion War has been over for a quarter of a century, but the painful scars of the conflict still run deep. The Alpha Quadrant rebuilds but in the process, a lot of compromises are made. Idealism and principles of the old are sometimes bent, sometimes broken.
Alliances forged in the fires of war buckle as the galaxy looks for the troubled new century, a time of isolationism and prejudice. New and old enemies rise, both without, and within. It takes a resolved crew to face the challenges of this era. A new Captain. A new ship. The USS Enterprise."
We've got a Captain that's flawed, alien shipriders that we're not sure we can trust and a Federation that could be withering from internal corruption. I've read the first few, and they have been GOOD. Easily better than the last 2 TV series AND movies to come out of Hollywood. If you've been thirsting for new Trek but with the same qualities that endeared you to the old Trek then you should stop reading this and click the link.
As if there hasn't been enough discussion but... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I'd say the future of Trek movies *is* certain (Score:1, Interesting)
Then there is the generic episode:
1. space is cool
2. oops, theres an alien we haven't met before
3. hey, here is 3 facts about unknown alien
4. whew, we're done without any resolution of how/what/why the alien did stuff
Fairly boring stuff considering that the only decent alien to come out of the entire TNG was the borg.
I am still waiting on a series called 'Borg' where they are the main focus.
Re:My dot oh two. (Score:2, Interesting)
I, too, greatly enjoyed "Inner Light", and many of the other character driven eps, like "Face of the Enemy", "Darmok", "Lessons", even "Lower Decks", which showed us a few characters which we would never have seen otherwise. We get to learn about the characters as almost-real people, and to paraphrase Clarke, it's all about the people.
Comment # 777- Safety Trek (Score:3, Interesting)
ST:TNG started with an episode proving that human beings were frail, weak little things subject to the whims of godlike aliens, and the wars of those stronger than us. The Borg dominated Trek lore for so long, due to their indestructable nature. And legend of the Klingon tenacity in pre TOS days is far and wide.
So when Enterprise turned out to be more boring happy-happy nothing bad ever happens stuff, people realized that it wasn't resonating with them. Spiderman not only took people on a fantastic, original journey, but turned what could have been a stock kissy kissy ending into something complicated and real. Insurrection? They took something that by definition should have been complicated and painful (the reprocussions of the crew's actions WRT what was basically an order from starfleet), and turned it into a glossed over kissy-kissy ending. First Contact? Started the movie by destroying the indestructable Borg, ended the movie by destroying indestructable Borg lore, and in the middle destroyed the Borg several more times. Generations? Picard wasn't even slightly torn, Soren wasn't even slightly torn, Guinan wasn't even slightly torn...
It's almost like Star Trek has been too afraid to be tense. It's too valuable a property to the studios to allow anything controversial, interesting, or potentially unpopular to come of it. You can't get much further away from the "Star Trek" formula than collecting whales in a modern day Monterey, but it is that sort of creativity and willingness to explore what defines the characters and the universe they find themselves in that made TOS so great. Wrath of Kahn? Very human scale with an epic presentation. Undiscovered Country? A truly epic scale brought focus in a human way. Insurrection? A good episode, but not worth 8 bucks. The Search for Spock? No dramatic tension at all.
Sadly the 3 movies preceeding this one have all been duds. No disrespect to Frakes, who directed the last two movies and who did a decent job of turning badly underwritten scripts into something watchable, but there has been no return on the moviegoer's money since the Undiscovered Country over 12 years ago. Why does Berman feel he deserves the moviegoer's money? What has he done for us lately? All of the memorable Star Trek scenes have taken place in person to person shots, yet the past 3 movies have all emphasized spaceship crashes, explosions, and easy exits. "From hell's heart I stab at thee," was a beautiful line delivered by a man about to kill himself in order to destroy his enemy. To save the crew from the explosion a much beloved character is forced to give his life. The modern filmmakers took that to mean crowds like big, ringed explosions, and narrow escapes.
Hire writers that value human interactions over plot convieniences, know what a federation is and how to work one into a script, and can utilize pain and suffering to resonate with an audience. Underbudget the movie so that it is forced to rely upon plot rather than effects. Capture human responses to events, rather than jumping into scenes directly after the painful part.
And after all, if Star Trek goes on a 20 year hiatus... who cares? There will always be science fiction epics about man's interactions with the unknown. Star Trek has been dominating that scene for too long now, keeping more original shows like Andromeda or Babalon 5 relegated to the backwaters of TNN. Perhaps it is time, like Kirk dramatically stepping down for the captain of the new Enterprise, for the series to be laid to rest... for now.
Firefly with a ST label? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I'd say the future of Trek movies *is* certain (Score:3, Interesting)
The Star Trek universe is quite deep. In 500 years or so of timeline stretching across dozens of planets, races, and empires, there's tons of room for storytelling. Pick some unexplored aspect of Trekdom and make a couple 2-hour shows about it. It's time enough to get indepth with the characters (moreso than in a movie), but not so long that you have to kill the show coming up with the same stupid plots over and over again in 180 friggin episodes. And since the story only lasts a fraction of the time (which you can of course stretch over any period of Trek-time), you're free to do whatever you want, up to and including killing off (permantly!) major characters for no other reason than because it's a good plot device.
I need to start keeping a list, but here's a small sample of ideas. The founding of the Borg Collective, the Dominion, or the Romulan Star Empire; I'm not too fond of these since they wouldn't really involve humans much. But how about the Klingon-Federation wars or the Orion Syndicate? The aftermath of First Contact and the impact of cheap space travel on Earth? How about some of the covert activities of Section 31 since the beginning of the Federation?
Nemisis did poorly because it insulted the fans (Score:3, Interesting)
Star Trek Nemesis succeeds at being a 2-hour rollercoaster of action that is about nonsense. Nothing in the movie makes the least bit of sense, and the more you try and think about what you just saw, the more you realise that Paramount has just given up, and they figure if that if they make enough stuff blow up, the fans will still buy the crap at the conventions.
Okay, so here's the plot (what little plot I could pick up). The Enterprise finds some pieces of an android that looks like another "Data". It is another Data, but it's a crude prototype of Data - more like an autistic child. This actually has nothing to do with the plot (much). The plot is, The Enterprise gets sent to Romulus, because the Romulans want to talk peace. Actually, they don't, but they have a new government, one that is controlled by people from Remus, which is a twin planet of Romulus.
Now, listen carefully, here's where it gets complicated (and apparently, two more pages into the script, the writers forgot everything they tell us here). The Remuns are slaves to the Romulans, mining Dilithium, but their planet doesn't rotate, so they live only on the Dark side because the light side is too hot (huh, isn't Romulus in nearly the same orbit? (nevermind!)). Okay, so, these guys look like Nosferatu and they have extreme sensitivity to light (feel a plot point coming? Uh, no sorry, it was just gas...).
Anyhow, their leader is a guy claiming to be a clone of Picard, and all through the movie, you're told these two look very similar. Except that they DONT look similar at ALL! (close your eyes, now they look similar, right?) I mean, yeah, they are both bald, but that's about it.
Okay, so these guys also have a spaceship about the size of the Enterprise times 4, armed to the teeth with 80 gazillion photon thingies and 27 bazillion phaser guns and stuff. It also has a cloak. This guy sez he wants peace and to free his people on Remus, and he needs the help of the Federation. And Picard doesn't trust him.
Wait a minute. This guy just overthrew the Romulan government and controls a spaceship big enough to defeat 5 Borg cubes, hasn't he ALREADY freed his people? (don't think, don't think!).
AT this point, the copy of Data comes back into the story, and downloads some data from the Enterprise into himself. The Real Data is onto him of course. In the meantime, Jordy figures out that the spaceship is one giant weapon that can shoot a ray of some kind of super deadly radiation -- so deadly, the a human will die instantly from even the tiniest exposure to it (remember this point, because the writers forget it as well).
So, turns out the bad guy Picard clone is with Romulan hard-liners that want to destroy the Federation by killing everyone on Earth with this Radiation. And, using the data from the copy of "Data", they can cloak, fly by Federation fleet ships and Radiate them too.
Oh yeah, and Docter Crusher figures out that the clone is dying unless he gets a transfusion of blood from Picard -- how this is crucial to the plot, I was never able to figure out.
So the Enterprise takes off and races back to Earth to warn them of the doom that is about to befall the Federation unless they act quickly. However, Picard is captured but escapes with the help of the Data Copy, who turns out to be the "real" Data, who switched with the copy and provided the bad guy with false information about the Fleet. Picard and Data make their escape rather easily (and pointlessly -- it feels like this part of the movie got made to fill up some time).
Foolishly, the Enterprise flies right into a section of space where long range communication is impossible (but just about everything else works), and it's here that they get attacked by the cloaked ship the bad guy has. Now the movie goes from just plain silly to downright insulting stupid.
The Enterprise can't target the bad guys because they are cloaked. Nevermind that Scotty figured out who to do that several trek movies ago, the Enterprise gets the shit kicked out of it because the bad guys have that super-duper array of weapons and they can fire while cloaked. Some bad guys beam onto the ship, presumably, to take Picard becaue they need his blood. So, do they beam onto the bridge? No, they beam into some hallway. So Worf and Riker go to stop the bad guys.
Now, the bad guys are sensitive to strong light, remember? If Riker had said "Computer, raise light level in hallway to 250 percent" and blinded the bad guys, I would have never written this review. But Noooooooo, instead, we are treated to a stupid firefight in the hallways of the Enterpise, and yes, the bad guys are using lazer guns that shoot bright beams of light and cause blinding explosions to everything those beams touch, and not a single bad guy has any vision problem with that!
Meantime, two Romulan warbirds show up. They are here to help the Enterprise kill the bad guy. They don't want to have the blood of everyone on earth on their hands. Sure, sure.... Great, first Star Trek ruined the Borg, now they ruin the Romulans. The Romulans are now nice guys. Yeah.
The Bad guy dispatches both Warbirds pretty quickly, and then, in the one cool scene of the film, blows out the front portion of the bridge of the Enterprise, sucking Esign Red-Shirt into space before a force-field seals the breach. The Bad guy de-cloaks so he can gloat. At this point, the Enterprise has little power and no weapons. So Picard orders ramming speed.
Now, if both ships had been destroyed and the movie ended with everyone dead, I would have said this was the best Star Trek film ever, and I would not be writing this review. But Nooooooo, instead, the ships do a little damage to each other, just their front sections are crumpled and intertwined. In fact, they do a nice effect to show you that the two ships SEEM locked together. But I guess the writers forgot that as well 2 more pages into the script (can I even call it a script at this point? Maybe I should say "Napkin")
Now, if Picard had lead a team of commandos through the damaged sections and into the bad guys ship, since they are now joined, I would not be writing this review. But Nooooooo, instead, the bad guy just backs out, and the Enterprise just sits there and is "stuck to space" because the two ships come apart. Okay, you've just have millions of tons of metal crashing into each other and the two ships come apart like they are greased. Hasn't anyone in California ever been in a car accident? (forget it, don't try and think, this is a Star Trek movie)....
So, the bad guy now has his ship crippled, none of the weapons work -- except, of course, for the big radiation gun. That's undamaged. Sure.... So, he decides the fire the big gun at the Enterprise. But guess what, it takes 7 minutes to charge up the big gun. Can anyone say Death Star? When are the bad guys going to learn that your main weapon should always be ready to fire instantly? And isn't everyone tired to death of this type of plot?
So Picard beams over to kill the bad guy and stop the weapon. Except that the Transporter dies right after, so he's got no way of getting back. So Data decides to jump out an open hole in the Enterprise (caused by the crash earlier), and catches a handy-dandy protrusion on the bad guy's ship. Data's got some emergency Transporter gizmo that was shown earlier in the film.
Meantime, the Enterprise starts trying to get away from the bad guys so that they don't get fried by the radiation gun. So Picard beams over and does battle with the bad guy but loses his hand phaser as they roll and tumble about. After Picard kills the bad guy with some sharp piece of spaceship, Data shows up, beams Picard out and then points his own hand-phaser at the radiation beam just as the ship is about to fire.
Wait a minute. These guys were fighting right next to the Radiation beam building up to fire. Didn't they say that the slightest exposure was instantly fatal? Sorry, my mistake. I guess I was listening earlier to the dialog instead of just ohh'ing and ahhh'ing at the effects.
So Data shoots the radiation beam just before it fires. The ship instantly explodes. Data dies. Isn't the Enterprise still in danger from the radiation? Ahh forget it, there's no science in Star Trek anymore.
Everyone drinks a toast to Data, and then Picard has a heart-to-heart talk with the autistic version of Data from earlier in the film. -- i.e. the cheap copy of Data. And that's the end of the film.
Bad. Bad. Bad. Bad.....
What's so sad about this film is that there were several germs of ideas that were never followed through on.
#1) Germ of an idea one is that with this clone, Picard was supposed to be doing battle with himself. Several times, each one says about the other "I know how he thinks" -- except that they don't. Neither predicts the other's moves in the slightest. This germ of an idea was handled FAR BETTER in the Original Series Episode "Balance of Terror" and was done with one one-millionth of the budget.
#2) Germ of an idea number two is that both the Picard Clone and the Data Clone can't seem to rise above what they are, and do more than is expected, and become "human", even though Picard makes impassioned pleas to both to do so. Neither does so, so the audience learns nothing from this exploration of our humanity. What was the point of introducing this concept if there's no follow through? Data shows a glimmer of hope at the end, but what they should have done was have the Data clone progress throughout the film, so that HE rises to the occasion and sacrifices himself to kill the bad guy. That would have made a nice irony as well, since the bad guy built the Data clone, and if his creation had killed him, that would have made for a better script, and I would not be writing this review.
#3) Germ of an idea number three was all the build up about who and what the Citizens of Remus are like, and how harsh their world is, and how they are slaves, and how they are sensitive to light, etc. Yet, there was zero follow through on that, and in the end it seemed like a waste of time to even talk about it in the film. For that matter, how the hell did a slave civilization build a spaceship bigger than god without anyone noticing?
Ah screw it. The MOVIE SUCKS -- PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Re:My dot oh two. (Score:3, Interesting)
The original poster was either trolling you or confused.
I knew that, but thought that maybe it's been changed in all these crazy code upgrades. So if I was succesfully trolled, congratulations! The Troller can pick up his shirt at the award center.
Personally, I believe the key to Nemesis's downfall was the lack of trombone playing by Riker. He had a perfect chance in the opening scenes, and that waste created an imbalance throughout the movie.
In the original script, and when we shot it, Riker plays the hell out of the trombone during the wedding sequence, while Data sings "Blue Skies."
Re:Half the problem: Inconsistency (Score:3, Interesting)
But the writers... They turned it into that miracle cure for everything. Grrr...