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suzipaw writes
"In this interview on OpenP2P.com, Kay has some interesting observations about both the past and future of computing--including kids using technology. Says Kay, "Montessori would have been a great innovator with computers.""
My kid loves her computer (Score:5, Insightful)
On the plus side at preschool there are two computers that the kids use/watch other kids use, exposure seems to be key.
Re:My kid loves her computer (Score:2, Interesting)
ever since i enrolled in university i've been much less active, so to speak. in high school i used to love hacking around the school district servers, the local security and protection, the pro
Re:My kid loves her computer (Score:1, Funny)
Re:My kid loves her computer (Score:3, Insightful)
I have two boys (5 and 7), and I encourage them to go outside and play, play with Lego building blocks (not legso
They each have thier own computer (old laptops) and they do play some games such as Reader Rabbit, etc. But I purposefully limit the amount of time spend in front of it. I just don't see how it can be good for them to sit there for hours.
Re:My kid loves her computer (Score:3, Insightful)
The grandparent poster indicated that their child replaced Disney films with computer use, something that s
Re:My kid loves her computer (Score:1)
That was meant to read 'four.'
Alas, I think I required more aids in literacy as a child. Or perhaps proof-reading patience that Internet forums so frequently devour.
Re:My kid loves her computer (Score:2, Interesting)
Beats them spending the same time in front of the Vacuum Tube watching the garbage on it, doesn't it?
(ok, unless you can restrict their TV time to more educational things such as Discovery Channel and whatever else is available nowadays - beats me, I haven't watched TV in years)
SB
Re:My kid loves her computer (Score:1)
I also limit the time my daughter uses her computer as mentioned before (2-3 hours tops)
Re:My kid loves her computer (Score:1)
Re:My kid loves her computer (Score:1)
o man you are such a troll...
Re:My kid loves her computer (Score:1)
Re:My kid loves her computer (Score:1)
nice sig...
she is 3 1/2 (Score:2)
So, she just fits in the floppy drive, then?
Doesn't do much for me (Score:4, Interesting)
A lot of criticisms about how what everyone else is doing is wrong without offering an alternative, and gloating that "he did it first".
Nothing against Alan personally, but he reminds me of team motivators that are great at speaking theory but lack giving true direction.
__ cheap web site hosting [cheap-web-...ing.com.au] FAQ
Re:Doesn't do much for me (Score:1)
Re:Doesn't do much for me (Score:2, Insightful)
The article is indeed a promotion. It's telling you:
1. Who Alan Kay is, and what he's helped contribute.
2. That he's giving a talk at an O'Reilly function.
3. A general idea of what the talk will be about.
4. A few of the reasons Kay feels
Doesn't do much for me (Score:2)
I would say however, that the article didn't offer us anything new. Slashdot is a (sorta) news service. Personally I want to read something that is either new to me or an "out of left field" controversial opinion that has the potential to shake things up a bit.
As you concede the article is a promotion, if one on an interesting topic from an interesting speaker. It is just not what I clasify as
Squeak Wiki (Score:1, Informative)
The real innovation to come from the Kay camp is the pervasive collaborative editors that now manafest themselves as Wikiwebs.
Re:Squeak Wiki (Score:1)
Kids and Computers (Score:5, Insightful)
Internet Boom (Score:3, Interesting)
Rus
Re:Kids and Computers (Score:2, Insightful)
I find it best to differentiate between kids and real people as well.
I seem to remember that the most socializing I did as a kid with regards to computing was the illicit trade of copied C64 games tapes. Apart from the actual gaming, everything else seemed to be a largely solitary pursuit, probably as the home revolution was still in its infancy. I'm not sure, but I feel that
Re:Kids and Computers and boys and Ritalin (Score:2, Interesting)
Inquisitive and restless boys, the troublemakers, are sent to the school nurse, who then has a talk with the parents about ADHD. Parents then get from SSI a $450 check for their disabled child being treated with vitamin R.
and when these powers of expression bring forth a new way to discuss, think, and argue about important ideas.
Re:Kids and Computers and boys and Ritalin (Score:1)
Re:Kids and Computers (Score:1)
Well duh, of course, because they are the heroes that bring you the pr0n. Ah, it always drives the tech forward..
Kids and Computers (Score:5, Insightful)
There should be a balance and I would think that it would be better to spend time with parents that technology. Just call me old fashioned it you want
Rus
Re:Kids and Computers (Score:5, Insightful)
I used to get the crap kicked out of me every day (literally) by kids who saw me as a threat due to my intelligence. I stopped this by withdrawing completely from any personal social interaction.
Time eventually came where I "re-introduced" myself to the world. The fact I had been a social recluse for the past 3 years gave me a whole new spin on life once I actively sought one. I wholely believe this is for the better. Having been a social recluse for so long made real social interaction a learning experience for me.
Due to that, I'm now one of the most popular people in my area. This isn't even intentional. More than likely, it is due to the extreme change in environment and need to acclimate myself.
Tough situations are much better learning and cementing tools than people realize. Had I not shut myself off for awhile in my pubescant years, I'd probably just another wasted youth in America's ghetto.
Children aren't meant to handle social situations as well as adults can. Sometimes taking them out of the social situation for a small while is the best thing to do, considering how much they'll actually learn once put back in the situation.
Re:Kids and Computers (Score:5, Interesting)
Rus
Re:Kids and Computers (Score:1)
The hacker minority will probably stick to the old fashioned way, at least during heavy-duty programming sessions, but most kids will surely embrace mobile computing when it comes (wearable computers not far off?).
Re:Kids and Computers (Score:1)
I think the important thing to consider about children and computers is what they would be doing otherwise. It's probably a good thi
Re:Kids and Computers (Score:2)
At the busstop were 5 schoolkids waiting for the bus - and at the time I went past EVERY one was on their cell phone, none talking to the other. (not face to face anyway, hell they could have all been on a party line to each other for all I know
While that's not a complete lack of human interaction, neither is a lo
Re:Kids and Computers (Score:5, Insightful)
Its the 5 years old I worry about and would make to sure any kids I have will goto kindergarden so they at least learn what is socailly acceptable
Hey just my opinion
Rus
Re:Kids and Computers (Score:1, Funny)
Refelctions... (Score:4, Interesting)
People, if you aren't happy with computers, come up with where they should be going, and why. A GUI was a natural evolution for the computer... What exactly do we need next? Come-on all you "visionaries"...
Re:Refelctions... (Score:3, Informative)
so true... (Score:2)
I read some article somewhere extolling the virtues of a GUI in highly theoretical terms, and got all excited, managed to get my hands on an early copy of Windows and tried to convince my friends that this was the way of the future...
they rolled their eyes at me, and after about a week of messing around with it, I trashed Windows from my machine. Did I ever think that w
Re:Refelctions... (Score:2)
I think you misunderstood the point. While computers were only text, things like televisions were graphical. Sure, there was discussion about if there is any advantage to a GUI, but the technology was there for anyone to make use of.
Re:Refelctions... (Score:2)
Rus
Re:Refelctions... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not sure whether you are trying to troll or if you're just a little igonorant about the history of the computer.
Back in the early 1970s, GUIs were not a natural evolution for computers. They only appear so in retrospect because Steve Jobs happened to get a tour of Xerox PARC and decided that GUIs should be the next step in the evolution of computers. I daresay that Jobs (and Woz's) experiences growing up playing (and later writing) video games influenced the decision to base the Lisa and then the Mac's OS around a GUI but had Jobs not had his little tour about PARC it's arguable that the PC revolution would never have happened and the CLI would still be dominant today.
Alan Kay and his fellow researchers at Xerox PARC and preceeded by Doug Englebart at SRI are the real thing - true visionaries. It's easy to knock their accomplishments 35+ years out (Englebart et. al. developed NLS in 1967! ) because we've had that long for their ideas to percolate into mass culture. Yeah, I know, the Mac has only been with us since 1984 but really, Englebart and later Kay were subtly but powerfully through their work and demonstrations preparing the way for the dominance of the GUI. Also, as I made allusion to before, don't forget the powerful role that video games had in preparing the kids of the 70s and 80s in ways that would make GUIs seem second nature.
So yeah, I've got to agree, this interview was pretty weak. However, if you want to see where Kay really envisioned that we'd be right now, take a look at the copious information out there regarding Dynabook, Smalltalk and his work at Xerox PARC. Then take a swing by squeak.org [squeak.org], download a copy and play around with it for a while. It's hard not to be impressed. As far as where we go next, that's up to all of us, including you. Personally, I'd like to start working in some strong AI and humaniform robots, but that's my hangup. Perhaps you have a different destination in mind.
Note: I'm not sure of Steve Jobs actual role at Xerox PARC. I've read differing accounts ranging from the tourist picture I paint above to his actually being a researcher there. Can anybody clarify?
Re:Refelctions... (Score:1)
For the people (and I don't mean you, but rather the grandparent and other similar posters) that constantly crap themselves with the "Well what should we do then, Smart Guy?!" attitude, are just inherently resentful towards the positions and accomplishments of researchers from before their time. Even if Alan had absolutely, positively, no idea
Re:Refelctions... (Score:2)
Correct as far as it goes. Two small additions from a former Xeroid (Xerox AI Systems - just down the road from PARC- 1986-88):
At the time of the jobs PARC visit, Xerox was a significant investor in Apple, owning something like 15% of its shares. That's how he got the tour.
Jobs was given the tour over the strenuous objections of many of the PARC researchers. They kne
Thanks! (Score:2)
Somebody please mod the parent up!
Thank you! I've long wondered how Jobs managed to get inside PARC. I'd never known that Xerox held a large portion of Apple shares. Fumbling The Future is one of those books that is on my "list" along with about 500 others.
It really is amazing that Xerox never could realize the potential in what it had. The Star, 3 years ahead of the Mac, was amazing. IIRC, and I apologize if my memory is faulty, you guys at Xerox AI Systems did a lot of work in making practical expert sy
Re:Thanks! (Score:2)
The most telling story in the book is about the Star's coming-out party, at a big Xerox new-products show. They set up a room full of Stars, file servers and printers, and showed them off to a bunch of senior VPs and their wives. Th
Re:Thanks! (Score:2)
Re: Revisionist Mac/PARC history (Score:3, Interesting)
Mostly, that's a myth. First, Parc was never that secretive. I got the tour and demo in 1975 while taking a class in computer architecture, years before Jobs did. Met Alan Kay and Adele Goldberg, and saw an early version of Smalltalk running a discrite-event simulation.
Second, the Lisa was the innovative
Re:Refelctions... (Score:2)
No. The only thing that tour of Xerox did was to (perhaps) change the time-line. Since we had TVs, it's only natural that computers would develop into devices that had graphical output. Perhaps it happened earlier than it otherwise would have, but I have no doubt that
Re:Refelctions... (Score:2)
Re:Refelctions... (Score:2)
eg.:
Kay: Computers should be doing so much more by now.
Me: What should they be doing that they aren't?
Kay:
Kids need to teach us about computers! (Score:2, Insightful)
Squeak eToys. (Score:2)
Squeak incorporates a system called eToys wherein the user draws objects on the screen and then programs them using drag-and-drop "tiles" that represent the various properties and actions associated with the object.
I haven't played much with it myself, and it'
Re:Legos (Score:2)
Who had Capsula growing up? What about Erector Sets? Hell, even Voltron was more educational than Legos are now. Don't waste your money.
Re:Kids need to teach us about computers! (Score:2)
Re:what's going on? (Score:1)
My kids (Score:4, Funny)
Otherwise I'm going to trade them in.
Re:My kids (Score:5, Insightful)
And mine are on the street if they learn PHP at any point... Although, actually, children learn to talk before they learn to draw, so why should mastering computer language come 12 years after mastering point and click? Or, conversely, why are GUIs so shallow?
The GUIs we have now generally have the grammatical sophistication of a 2 year-old: "Want THAT, Don't want THAT, move THAT, and THAT, and THAT..." Seeing Kay's name go past again makes me nostalgic for an age when interface designers dreamed bold dreams, when object-oriented meant more than another way of managing libraries, when we really thought that GUIs could become languages rather than cave paintings revisited. I remember playing with GUI code on a Symbolics 15 years ago that still makes any modern GUI seem incredibly limited, and this despite having 100 times the processing power we had then.
I think we settled for a parody of the original dream.
Re:My kids (Score:2)
Some high schools [bbspot.com] would agree with you.
("B-but Dad! It's not mine! Denny brought it over on his Red Hat Distribution! And I didn't use it... he just installed it...")
Get Squeak. (Score:2)
http://www.squeak.org
Get it. Have fun. Show it to your kids.
Kids & computers (Score:3, Insightful)
If not, they will develop habits that will be difficult to break once they get into their early-to-mid 20s--then they'll be in trouble. Have them develop good habits to start with.
Re:Kids & computers (Score:1)
Re:Kids & computers (Score:2)
Old Gits and Computers (Score:2)
I am pushing for my local supermarket to have an "Old People Only" checkout isle, with old people banned from all other checkouts, so that I don't have to wait behind some crusty old fart paying by cheque because they're scared that using their debit card (which their bloody bank sent them anyway) might kill them.
Re:Old Gits and Computers (Score:1)
-there will be the people that use computers
-there will be the people that write the software
-there will be a bunch of people stuck on a remote island because they can't do either
worked for me (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Kids Sholdnt use the Internet. (Score:2)
I think it's funny you chose 13 as the age you're willing to let them explore the Internet, in all of it's sexual content glory...
That's the age I really got interested in the Internet!
Re:Kids Sholdnt use the Internet. (Score:1)
Mind you, since apparently (and in my opinion strangely) such average is coming down [jhuccp.org] people might want to take 1 or 2 years off, so 11 or 12 sounds more appropriate.
Re:Kids Sholdnt use the Internet. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Kids Sholdnt use the Internet. (Score:1)
Sigh.
Re:Kids Sholdnt use the Internet. (Score:1)
What will computers *be*, to kids. (Score:5, Interesting)
Then people started thinking about them as fancy typewriters.
Then, databases. I remember working at a retail computer store in the late 80's and actually using the "mom can store her recipes" argument.
Somewhere in there they were seen as having the potential to be generic problem solvers. But I think that view was only ever held by developers, not users.
I think kids see the computer as a communication device. IM is the world to lots of them.
I, like many Slashdotters, saw my first computer at the age of about 10 where if you wanted a new video game you learned assembly language and wrote your own. I spend the next 20 years listening to people say things like "Oh, my 2yr old is into the computer just like you were!" Yeah, sure. The 2yr old likes to wiggle the mouse, I was hacking 6809 assembly. That's the same thing. But kids now have simply learned to see the computer for its communication ability, and don't necessarily care to see it as a machine that can be turned into new things. Sure, they like to personalize the hell out of it. Skinning your programs, generating new icons, that's all the rage. But the percentage of 10yr olds that are out there thinking about new IM programs to write is probably about the same as its always been. I've always been a firm believer that hackers are born, not made, a kid who is destined to hack will show an intuition for it from the minute she sits down at the keyboard, and a kid who isn't will be bored and distracted in programming classes.
Re:What will computers *be*, to kids. (Score:1)
There are still some little hackers in the making out there, perhaps even more than before, but the great majority of the kids see computers as a toy/tool. I think that's ok, since most of them will be using computers as a tool in their professional careers but not necessarily as programmers. They need to be computer literate as users not as hackers.
What troubles me is that some of these future users when faced with the big decision of choosing their undergraduate course, w
its just a part of evolution (Score:3, Insightful)
As computers become more common place humans will evolve further. We will no longer have to invest in hard core brain power, and perhaps will concentrate on a different role. If you disagree with darwinism please disregard this post entirely, I don't want to say anything but my opinion. As computers start to do some things for us we will learn how to do other things we couldn't imagine of doing right now. The question is - will we get there without losing sight of what is really important?
If I lost you, I apologize in advance - mod this down all you want :)
Re:its just a part of evolution (Score:1)
As computers become more common place humans will evolve further.
Computers have yet to exist long enough for them to effect evolution. And before you ge
He says there isnt much effort in trying to improv (Score:2)
To me, there are many efforts in several fronts.
In fact, due to the mass of information and geographic distance, many of these efforts are hard to track, even if you tried.
Re:He says there isnt much effort in trying to imp (Score:2)
>
>
If there are so many efforts, how about a few links instead of a content-free post?
Re:He says there isnt much effort in trying to imp (Score:1)
Computers!=problem solving (Score:2)
When I went to school in the precomputer age, mutiplying and dividing decimal numbers (a hard process) was handled with logarithm tables, which substituted an API of a two dimensional + interpolation table search plus addition and subtraction. It wasn't a very good API,
A story being lived out right now. (Score:1)
in an article about the computer revolution, (Score:3, Funny)
Yeah, I'd certainly agree that you aren't using electronic tools to their maximum if you are writing madly to record what someone's saying.
Re:in an article about the computer revolution, (Score:1)
Use it as a tool (Score:2)
My wife and I decided that we would use the computer as a tool for her growth and development, but not as a time-waster/babysitter. And, I didn't want her to have to "learn the computer," a complex interface in and of itself.
I have it set up so that she can bring the computer out of suspend with the power button, run her drawing program with one hotkey on the keyboard, and she's into her drawing program. She loves her Dis
Call it a "dynabook" (Score:2)
Grandpa! Why do you always call my PDA a "dynabook"?
"Well sonny, long before you were born, there was a really smart guy named, Alan Kay, and he was the first person to think up a powerful, portable computer a kid could draw on, and ask questions."
"Really? Did you know him Grandpa?"
(chuckle) "What do you think?"
Mental Masturbation (Score:1)
Re:The Future of Computing (Score:1)