Stallman Meets KDE Team for Tea 573
fishermonger writes "Trying to imoprove relations, the french KDE team invited RMS to tea at Linux Solutions 2003. From the piece: 'He asked whether KDE people were saying "Gnu/Linux" or just "Linux", and Open Source or Free Software. I told him some of us are using KDE/Gnu/Linux which pleased him as an answer.' Many pearls in the article."
RMS KDE has been planned for years (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:RMS KDE has been planned for years (Score:3, Funny)
French KDE group surrenders to German GNOME group. Film at 11.
Corrected Article (Score:3, Funny)
do people really? (Score:5, Interesting)
do you just type it, or actually say "I use gnu linux"
Re:do people really? (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, I could just imagine the conversations now. "New Linux? How is that different from the old Linux?" Or are we supposed to say guh-noo Linux?
Re:do people really? (Score:2)
New Linux? But Linux is the new GNU... (Score:3, Funny)
The original GNU-system kernel was Alix [gnu.org] (eponymous of one of RMS's past girlfriends).
Alix was chased away by the HURD (CM Mach) which was in turn vanquished our charming hero Linux . . . (meanwhile, Alix lies asleep, imprisoned in the dark tower as the HURD patiently plots its revenge).
--TRR
Re:do people really? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:do people really? (Score:5, Interesting)
do you just type it, or actually say "I use gnu linux"
I say I use Debian. If I talk to someone who doesn't know what Debian is, I say I use a free (Norwegian has a separate word for free as in freedom) operating system including Linux, called Debian. Otherwise I say the name of the specific software I am talking about ("I'm having problems configuring XFree86", "KDE uses a long time to load", "I can't use BSD without the GNU toolchain", "Linux lacks support for my sound card") where other people would just say Linux.
Re:do people really? (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole GNU/Linux debate is getting tiresome, it reminds me of socialist parties in Europe who war for years over the name of a party, it tends to ruin their credibility amongst the electorate.
Surely the most important thing is to have a name that is recoqnised and used by the masses. Sadly for RMS , "Linux" is now a household name, and you simply cannot retrofit household names. I realise that he and his group have provided the framework for the entire operating system that is GNU/Linux, i think there are enough mentions of "GNU" in the header files, man pages, about dialog boxes to show how embedded GNU is into Linux.
I really dont think that GNU/Linux is going to come into every day use, but i think the history books will look nicely upon RMS.
Re:do people really? (Score:4, Informative)
why they decided to use the moniker "free" in FSF instead of Freedom is anyones guess really.
Could it be that freedom is a noun while free is an adjective?
i think there are enough mentions of "GNU" in the header files, man pages, about dialog boxes to show how embedded GNU is into Linux.
But it isn't for the sake of credit he wants GNU to be mentioned, it is to remind people of the free software ideals Linux alone does not represent.
Re:do people really? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:do people really? (Score:2)
When I talk, I normally (95% of the cases) use "linux", the "gnu" thing is kind of hard to use in normal daily sitiations.
But when I write something I try to remember to use GNU/Linux.
By doing this I at least acknowledge that there are more to GNU/Linux than just the kernel.
For example: In Debian; GNU/Linux is an essential part of the name on the distro.
Re:do people really? (Score:5, Interesting)
How about we all just start calling "Linux" or "GNU/Linux" AWUOS- "a wannabe unix OS," which really captures the essence of linux, gnu, xfree, kde gnome, etc. That way, if my system, for some reason or another uses less than 23% GNU code I won't have to waste my time tallying it up and deciding whether or not I should say "GNU/Linux" or just "Linux."
Man, I used to really respect RMS. Maybe I was just young and dumb. Yes, GNU has contributed some awesome code to the world, but why the hell does he enjoy going out of his way to be an asshole? The XFree guys aren't telling everyone Linux should be called GNU/Xfreenux. It's sad- RMS must have some big feelings of inadequacy to press the issue so hard and so often. I honestly feel bad for the guy...
Re:to be technically correct... (Score:3, Informative)
RMS basically thinks that because linux was built with a lot of gnu tools, he and the rest of gnu are being screwed over/ignored/lost if it's not called gnu/linux, to symbolize that it's a kernel and a bunch of (gnu) tools.
Personally I'm lazy and if I could just call linux "lin" or "l" I would. That and while I respect RMS, he seems to talk about gnu/linux vs linux at every. single. oppor
Re:what a stupid flame. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure there is. The guy is an asshole. He goes around constantly correcting people who use the word "Linux", insisting they replace the term with "GNU/Linux". I'll call if whatever the fuck I please, thanks, and if RMS doesn't like it he can eat my shorts.
It's an oversimplification that can be avoided by being specific.
Bullshit. If the listener knows what you're talking about that is the definition of the word. Common usage defines the definition, not some pedantic assholes who insist that they, and they alone, get to define terms. That's how language evolves, Jack.
It doesn't matter what you, RMS, or anyone has to say about the matter. If the vast majority of folks refer to the kernel, OS, and tools as "Linux" then it is Linux - and that's all there is to it.
No analogies, please. I can see the strawman arguments coming a mile away. Take them somewhere else.
Max
Re:do people really? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:do people really? (Score:2, Interesting)
That includes people who have been using it longer and more than I do - come to think of it...that includes people who do scary things to the linux kernel on a daily basis
The only thing we argue about is how to pronounce
linux
"linoox, lih-nuks, ly-nooks, ly-nux, lunux, lie-nuhks, lieh-nikz, lai-noox..."
Re:do people really? (Score:2)
I use "GNU/Linux" when I'm writing something "formal", like technical documentation, or a proposal or contract, a security report for a customer, things like that. It is a bit impractical, but I find it appropriate and descriptive.
In most other cases I use plain "Linux". And I don't remember ever saying out l
Re:do people really? (Score:2)
Of course it sounds pathetic to say "guhnew-slash-linux" all the time, which is why I stick with "linux", though I mostly agree with his philosophy.
Re:do people really? (Score:3, Insightful)
Whenever I try to say 'gnu/linux', people look at me like I'm crazy or pretentious.
Damn the grammar police. Just say "Linux".
Re:do people really? (Score:2)
If for some strange reason I had to chose to stop using GNU stuff or Linux, I'd ditch Linux and keep the GNU stuff (especially bash, fileutils, and textutils).
-P
Re:do people really? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:do people really? (Score:2)
Unless they are programmers or people who understand all the tools and other programs that make up a distribution (or at least has a general idea what they are for), though, it is unlikely that Joe Sixpack has any idea of the years of effort put into them, and has never heard of the FSF.
So I too have a tendency to just say Linux in conversation, except in cases where I am specifically talki
Re:do people really? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:do people really? (Score:3)
gnu/crumpets... (Score:2, Funny)
I didn't know crumpets were POSIX compatible...
Re:gnu/crumpets... (Score:4, Funny)
See also:
GNU/tea
Uh oh... (Score:3, Funny)
And we all know where that leads - a recursive loop from which NO PERSON CAN ESCAPE FROM!
Gnu/Gnu/Gnu/Gnu/Gnu/Gnu - Noooo!
Re:Uh oh... (Score:2)
GNUooooooooooooooo!
"We are the knights that say . . . Gnu" (Score:3, Funny)
No! Not the Knights Who Say Gnu!
Casterhald:
The Same!
Hibernia Newbie:
Who are they?
Subedei:
We are the keepers of the sacred words: Gnu, Peng and Neewom.
Lorhald:
Neewom!
Wise Hibernia Player:
Those who hear them seldom live to tell the tale.
Rathgar:
The Knights Who Say Gnu demand a sacrifice!
Hibernia Player:
Knights of Gnu, we are but simple travelers who seek the relic stored beyond these woods.
Lorhald:
Gnu! Gnu! Gnu! Gnu!
Guess who couldn't get a date on Saturday night . .
Re:"We are the knights that say . . . Gnu" (Score:3, Funny)
However this one may be more apt:
Well, let's see there's the GNU/GNU/KDE/Linux, the GNU/GNU/Hurd/GNU (quite a lot of GNU in that one!) and the GNU/X/TCP/IP.
But I don't like GNU!
GNU, GNU, GNU, GNU, Wonderful GNU! Beautiful GNU!
Nuts (Score:5, Funny)
*sigh* it was still very interesting, but a little disappointing to say the least.
Re:Nuts (Score:2)
-Paul Komarek
Y'Know... (Score:5, Insightful)
--Apart from that, props to RMS for his coding contributions and efforts for Free Software.
Root!
Re:Y'Know... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Y'Know... (Score:5, Funny)
That works fine until somebody says, "Huh? What the hell are you talking about? What new OS?" And your cube-mate interrupts and says, "Hey, listen, you really don't want to get into this with him." And then the first guy says, "Get into what? If there's a new OS, I wanna know about it." And then you start explaining that it's not "new" but "guh-noo," and your cube-mate rolls his eyes and says, "Christ, did you have to get him started?" and puts on his headphones and cranks his iPod up really, really loud. And then, just as the first guy is getting that glassy look in his eyes, right when you're getting to the part about how "guh-noo" has been around longer than Linux, somebody else walks by and overhears you in the midst of this little lecture. As she walks by, she can be overheard muttering, "Oh, poor bastard. Why didn't somebody warn him about that guy?"
Remember: the purpose of language is to communicate. The instant somebody starts telling you to use one word instead of another, you're no longer communicating. You're proselytizing.
Re:Y'Know... (Score:5, Interesting)
Quick, what part of the world is "Palestine"? Is the inheritance tax really the "death tax" or the other way around? Homicide bombers or suicide bombers? Terrorists or freedom fighters? Burma or Myanmar?
You see, what words are appropriate depend very much on a point of view. Language is not static with respect to the world; the names we use for different things influence very much how we think about them.
Now, in this case I think Stallman is stubbornly fighting a losing battle, but to hear him tell it the savaging he gets on slashdot every time this topic comes up is less significant than the opportunities that the occasionaly use of the phrase gnu/linux creates for people to hear about the freedom part of free software.
Perhaps you could make a more constructive suggestion about how RMS & co. could get their point across in a less annoying abut equally or more effective fashion?
Re:Y'Know... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Y'Know... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Y'Know... (Score:3, Insightful)
GNU is the tools. Linux is the kernel. Redhat/Debian/Gentoo/Mandrake/whatever are the OS.
RMS (Score:3, Insightful)
I would of said we do not use gnukde or gnulinux.. (Score:3, Insightful)
I thank Mr Stallman for creating all the gnu software and for his vision of having groups of people working with each other and sharing intellectual idea's freely. Linux and perhaps FreeBSD would not be without him.
However his die hard views seem strange. If Linus calls his kernel Linux and not gnuLinux then its called Linux. A name is a name. Who cares? I could call it Katzware! But its still Linux.
Also there are many different kinds of licensing that are ok besides the GPL. The perl artistic license, BSD, X11 community license, etc. I use gnu software under FreeBSD. Does that mean it should be called gnuFreeBSD?
He rails agaisn't anything non gpl including X11 but uses it on his desktop. According to the copyright, his desktop is not offically gnu? He also stated when kde finally under pressure convinced QT to gpl there code, Stallan said they should be beginging for forgiveness! How offensive. I would of expected a thank you from him instead.
Only debian Gnu/Linux is officially gnu because you can chose to select only licenses that are gpl except x11. This is why my FreeBSD box is not offically gnu even though I use gnu software with it.
His dream of free software and a community of sharing is here and he should chill. He got his gnutopia with debian.
To be gnu it all has to be gnu which %99 of all Linux installs are not since they include non gpl software.
Re:I would of said we do not use gnukde or gnulinu (Score:5, Insightful)
Hopefully in the future historians will write this time up as a radical return to the concept of the Public Domain for Public Good, something that has been almost destroyed by Greedy Corporate Fucks. Linux is feted for its direct effects today on the GCFs, as its the most visible sign of the battle, but its the GPL and the gnu concepts that are actually driving it underneath and changing the agenda, IMHO.
Still, even appreciating this, GNU/Linux is a bit of a mouthful
Re:I would of said we do not use gnukde or gnulinu (Score:5, Interesting)
No, the intention of the GPL is to *lower programmer's wages*. Stallman freely states this.
No, he doesn't. Cite one place where he's ever said this.
Now, granted, that's not ALL workers, but given he's a communist
He describes himself as a liberal, not a communist. Of course to some right-wing nutjobs that's the same thing.
- yes, the ideals behind the GPL are communism, no matter how much many out there would prefer to deny it.
So, the ideal of not buying cars with their hoods welded shut is "communist" too, is it?
Or the ideal of having techies paid for services - technical support, and custom programming (which is what a large part of the programming workforce does anyway - most professional programmers aren't paid to work on Office or OpenOffice.) - is "communism"?
If you're not trolling, then you're just a whiner who doesn't realise that no-one gave you the right to have a job handed to you on a silver platter. If someone makes a free replacement for MS Office which is so good that everyone switches over to it - they have just put all the MS Office programmers out of work. Tough. They can now do something more productive with their lives. It doesn't make moral or financial sense to pay them to produce a product which no-one will buy. And that is not "communist" either - that is just free market logic. Same thing happens every year with all kinds of product every year - this is not at all specific to the GPL.
(And I stand by all these points, even though I am pretty much a communist!)
RMS isn't completely insane (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree that RMS has chosen an odd battle to fight with this GNU/Linux stuff. However, even RMS isn't trying to get Linus to change the name of the kernel.
The kernel is Linux. You can say "the Linux kernel" or you can just say "Linux". What annoys RMS is that people refer to their whole system as "my Linux system", as if the kernel were the most important part. So he wants people to say "my GNU/Linux system".
There is some justice in his request. If you count how many lines of code in a running system come from the GNU project, you will get a large number. And the compiler we use to build our Linux kernels is from the GNU project.
Presumably, if someone were to port the BSD userland to run over the Linux kernel, RMS would also be perfectly happy to hear people say "my BSD/Linux system".
All that said, RMS will find it to be a losing battle. When I am talking about my personal Linux system, I say "that's my Athlon XP system running Linux". The motherboard, hard disk, video card, and RAM are all pretty essential to my system's operations, and it would I suppose be more correct to say "that's my ASUS A7V333 Athlon XP system with a GeForce 4 and blah blah blah all running GNU/Linux". I just don't, though.
When I was running Windows 98, I usually said something like "my computer with Win98", as opposed to "my computer running Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition". Most people can't be bothered to add on extra syllables.
The kernel really is the most important part, when you are tersely describing a computer, because it controls what software will run on that computer. Adding the "GNU/" prefix is more a sign of respect to the GNU project than a useful classifier that describes the system.
steveha
Re:RMS isn't completely insane (Score:4, Interesting)
On the other hand, the kernel has a *lot* to do with what hardware can be reasonably controlled. For instance, getting a USB serial converter to work under FreeBSD (at least as of a few months ago) was nearly impossible. Under Linux you'll have better luck. Under a Windows kernel with vendor-supplied drivers, you may have even better luck.
If the software that runs is the determining factor, then there are a lot of GNU systems out there. Even the proprietary UNIX and BSD systems often offer GNU tools as an alternative to their own tools. On a GNU/Linux system, just about everything depends on GNU software at some point, whether through gcc, glibc, ld, bash/sh, or command-line tools. FreeBSD systems even depend in large part on GNU tools, but not nearly to the extent of GNU/Linux distributions.
-Paul Komarek
Re:I would of said we do not use gnukde or gnulinu (Score:5, Informative)
RMS has no issue with the kernel's name. He doesn't think that Linus' kernel, the Linux kernel itself should be called GNU/Linux. His problem is that people called entire distros which use the Linux kernel simply "Linux." He has a problem with this because a big part of any Linux distro is a bunch of GNU software. He evidentally things that any user of Linux should be forced to pay him in respect and homage by calling it GNU/Linux instead of simply Linux. Afterall, the kernel is a very small part of it. But if we're talking about how much of what makes up a distro, Linux should be probably be called XFree/Linux86 before GNU/Linux, at least in terms of total KLOC in a distro.
Are you sure he uses XFree86 on his desktop? I imagine that RMS gets by perfectly fine without using any non-GPL software... I wouldn't be surprised if he did use non-GPL stuff, but he's not your average 16 year old Windows convert- he doesn't need XFree or KDE or GNOME or even WindowMaker.
Re:I would of said we do not use gnukde or gnulinu (Score:4, Insightful)
Its not Linux (the kernel) that RMS is calling GNU/Linux. He calls linux linux just like anyone else. What he is calling GNU/Linux is all the distrubutions which are made up from the GNU project together with the linux kernel (and usually some other stuff)
Most people call the distributions just linux, which is fine (I personally think people can call things whatever they like) but I find it does cause confusion sometimes. eg "I'm downloading a new version of linux" can mean redhat 9 for example, or it can mean linux-2.5.68.tar.gz
RMS idea of saying GNU/Linux does avoid this confusion while at the same time giving credit to the GNU project. (After all, any given distro probably contains more lines of GNU code than Linux code (in fact emacs probably does that alone!))
However, I prefer to be even more specific and just use vendor names. "I'm downloading a new version of debian" is pretty unambiguous and avoids the whole linux vs gnu/linux problem.
Re:I would of said we do not use gnukde or gnulinu (Score:2, Interesting)
I use GNU/Linux, but only in writing. Of all the distributions out there, only Debian and Mandrake seem to actually do that as well. Debian's obviously strongly attached to the free software philosophy. Mandrake, while a commercial entity, is struggling to keep everything in it's distribution free too.
Re:I would of said we do not use gnukde or gnulinu (Score:3, Interesting)
This is true up until the point of what most people say when they're downloading linux-2.5.68.tar.gz.
Virtually everyone I've known says "Linux kernel", "the kernel", or just "2 5 68" in that context. Why? Because you need to be
The fight for freedom is long but worthwhile. (Score:5, Insightful)
There are some misunderstandings that remain unaddressed in this thread. The followups, I'm glad to see, display an understanding of the issues described in the GNU/Linux FAQ [gnu.org]. I hope to clear up the issues I spotted which remain. All spelling in the quotes is in context.
That's great. I hope you'll understand he's asking people to use the name GNU to get a share of the credit he (and many other people) think the GNU/Linux operating system is due. There is a technical advantage to distinguishing between the kernal and the rest of the OS here as well--it helps people speak more clearly about what they wish to address and thus avoid confusion.
Actually he objects to the use of non-free software. He has no quarrel with non-GPL licenses so long as they are Free Software licenses [gnu.org]. RMS might believe the GPL is a superior Free Software license to other Free Software licenses, but that does not stop him from recommending the use of Free Software under a variety of non-GPL licenses.
XFree86 is one example: XFree86 is Free Software so RMS doesn't object to its use and development. He goes further than that, actually. He is on record encouraging people to contribute their time and effort to it even under its non-copylefted Free Software license (the MIT X11 license). Unfortunately I don't have a specific pointer to precisely where the question arises, but if you listen to the Q&A sections of the history of Free Software talks, you'll hear him tell a questioner why he recommends against making a GPL-covered fork of XFree86.
I attended a lecture on Halloween a couple of years ago at the University of Chicago in which he said he talked briefly about the differences between Debian's Free Software Guidelines and the set of licenses it deems acceptable and the FSF's definition of Free Software and the set of licenses it deems acceptable. There is overwhelmingly large overlap but the two are not the same. So, no, he didn't get precisely everything he wanted with Debian but that didn't stop the FSF from pitching in (money or resources, I've forgotten which it was) to help get Debian started. Perhaps when GNU/Hurd is ready for ordinary users to use some people will make a GNU distribution that includes only Free Software as defined by the FSF.
However there is a more important issue at stake here: The Free Software community is constantly under attack from those who seek to compete with Free Software by making Free Software illegal or impossible to use and share. Patents on algorithms used in computer software (so-called "software patents") and the recent so-called "Super-DMCA" bills (now laws in many states) sweeping the US are examples of how laws can trump what you can do in your home with standard-compliant equipment and software hooked up to lines you pay to use. I'm not sure exactly what "chill[ing]" would entail, but it sounds like you want him to let his guard down and believe he has accomplished his goal. Far from it.
Some of the most important hurdles the Free Software community has yet to jump are legalistic and require becoming informed and putting aside some political differences to work together and defeat well-organized monied interests. These are not problems we can solve with our clever coding talents alone. The software the community put together, the community the GNU GPL built (which I believe will be perhaps his most important legacy) require eternal vigilance and, in exchange, can grant us one of the best things in the world: freedom.
Re:I would of said we do not use gnukde or gnulinu (Score:2)
RMS calls the kernel "Linux" as well.
The rest of your post is just as confused.
Re:I would of said we do not use gnukde or gnulinu (Score:3, Insightful)
RMS doesn't care what Linus names his kernel. RMS does care what name people use to describe the operating system that fundamentally matches the project he started twenty years ago.
It bothers me to use "Linux" as the name of a kernel *and* the name of a class of operating systems. That's just plain confusing.
Doesn't it also seem strange to name an operating system after its kernel, which was named after a single kernel developer?
Re:I would of said we do not use gnukde or gnulinu (Score:5, Informative)
Wrote most of it.
not always kde/gnu/linux (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:not always kde/gnu/linux (Score:2)
Re:not always kde/gnu/linux (Score:2)
Re:not always kde/gnu/linux (Score:2)
Not me! (Score:5, Funny)
Personally, I don't say Gnu/Linux, or even KDE/Gnu/Linux.
When someone asks what I'm using, I tell them I'm using KDE/X-Windows 11/Gnu/Linux/System V/MIT/AT&T/AMD/K7/x86/Intel.
Got to give credit to everyone, RMS told me so, so it must be true!
Re:Not me! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Not me! (Score:5, Funny)
You forgot SCO
heh
Re:Not me! (Score:2)
Re:Not me! (Score:2)
X is already part of the GNU system. You have read the GNU project announcement, right?
And GNU software accounts for about a quarter of modern GNU/Linux systems, not 90%.
And there is no "e" in ridiculous.
Quickie Mirror (Score:4, Informative)
http://people.ucsc.edu/~twilly/tea-with-stallman.
Not what I expected... (Score:5, Insightful)
Thats crazy. I understand that you use what you know, but this is a guy who is using emacs as his windowing system. Kind of changes my opinion of him as an all knowing guru.
Note: I'm not dissing his abilities or role in history. He has done shit that most of us could never come close to surpassing. Its just amazing to see how little things have changed for him in the last 10 years.
Re:Not what I expected... (Score:2, Funny)
The same thing can be said for Hurd!
Re:Not what I expected... (Score:2)
Thats crazy.
Why is it crazy? I've been using (and administering) various flavors of unix for the last ten years (Solaris, Mach, *BSD, Linux), and I think the last time I worked in a windowing environment on one of those machines was in 1997. I use a console with screen and emacs for work on servers, and a "real" windowing environment for desktop work. Haven't regretted it for a minute.
I mean, come on. I hate the corporations as much as the next
on the barge (plaintext) (Score:4, Funny)
"what kind of O/S to use, what's really nice?"
his beatific smile froze, eyes shrunk like a drunk mole,
whispered conspiringly: "emacs on console".
"what?!" i gasped, shocked, for how could it be
this self-styled geezer freak lecturing me?
my gigahertz beige steed sits awaiting the splendor;
i had no need for this aging freedom defender.
so i maxed out by fat pipe and installed all the ISOs,
task bar set one-click to grep google and lycos,
hardened and locked down and securely security-patched,
wallpapered and skin-toned and alpha blend cross-hatched.
and now to get cracking: i had much work to do.
had to write some rad shareware and slick manpages, too.
had to divine physics laws, apply methods numerical,
had to slather my ears w/ songs dull and hysterical.
in such a way i passed hours of enjoyment,
built up enough skills to muster gainful employment.
real world happiness, that's what i achieved,
pocketbook full, due to what i believed.
but lately i've wondered, is all this enough for me?
have i been blind, perhaps i'm too "tough" to see?
where is the respect i thought i'd have by now?
all these riches yet the hackers don't scrape and bow?
they call me a user and sometimes with "l" prefixed.
my opinions aren't sought, my postings are simply pre-nixed.
dammit what do i have to do to get street cred?
lawyer, who can i sue to save embarrassment beet red?
bellicose times these are, w/ the lawyers in charge.
and still the wise man floats not alone on his barge.
maybe i'll join him after all, lay down my wrong role.
maybe i can find happiness by using emacs on console.
Re:Not what I expected... (Score:2)
Don't get me wrong, I believe in GNU. I just don't believe in how RMS
Re:Not what I expected... (Score:2)
On the other hand, the video games that come with Emacs aren't nearly as cool-looking as those you can run under X. But then, I'll bet RMS doesn't play too many video games.
And talking about
Re:Not what I expected... (Score:2)
Re:Not what I expected... (Score:2)
Can anyone suggest to me what Sawfish or Metacity offers that fvwm2 doesn't? I'm sure there has to be many such things, but I can't think of any right now. What about useful things?
-Paul Komarek
Re:Not what I expected... (Score:2)
Guess I'm just weird like that.
BlackBox is also nice.
Re:Not what I expected... (Score:2)
-Paul Komarek
Re:Not what I expected... (Score:2)
Divisive revolutionaries... (Score:2)
Sorry to use "partisan" in the neo-conservative manner, but Slashdot routinely invites me into the unspoken debate whether RMS is the "arbitor elegante" of the entire ideology, or just the Derek Smart of (to displease everyone) "Alternative Software".
Please, Slashdot, explain to me how publishing these persistant articles re:
"RMS is a weird monster driven by a cult of personality that exists in his own mind"
aren't editorial choices. Either say that RMS is a fre
Re:Divisive revolutionaries... (Score:2)
RMS and France (Score:2, Insightful)
This is ridiculous. (Score:3, Funny)
(I is French)
Re:This is ridiculous. (Score:2)
You know, usually when I read something in English I hear it in my head with a normal accent but when I read that I actually heard it with a French accent...
Re:This is ridiculous, but not unusual. (Score:2)
http://everything2.com/?node_id=969638 [everything2.com]
Glad this meeting took place (Score:5, Insightful)
It's great that this meeting took place. Since KDE is now 100% Free Software there is no reason for any serious contention.
I have no relationship with RMS or the Free Software Foundation, but I would like to respond (perhaps preemptively) to some of the common anti-RMS flames that inevitably come up in any discussion involving RMS.
Anti-RMS argument #1) "I don't like RMS because he says GNU/Linux instead of Linux."
It may be quixotic of RMS to want this, but it is certainly not malicious, and he has presented solid ethical and practical reasons [gnu.org] for his argument. Essentially, by including GNU, we give acknowlegement to the philosophy of freedom behind the OS, not just to the individual who provided leadership in creating one important part of it, the kernel.
This angers some people because they feel he is "telling them what to do." He's not telling you, he's ASKING you, and he has provided good ethical arguments supporting his position. If you disagree, fine, but don't say that he's "telling you what to do." He's not.
Others feel he is slighting Linus Torvolds... this is hardly the case, RMS always gives Linus high praise for his leadership in creating the Linux kernel. In the unlikely event that everyone did start saying "GNU/Linux," Linus would still be the only person (that I know of) whose name is the basis of the name of a major OS.
Anti RMS argument #2) "RMS is too much of an idealist / extemeist"
Can we please give the man some credit? Because of his "extremism," KDE is now free software instead of proprietary. Without RMS and his "extremism" I think it is likely that Free Software would be a truly marginal movement today, rather than the large scale success it has become.Anti RMS argument #3) "RMS is too biased towards the GPL, other free software licences are just as good." OR "the GPL isn't as free as some other licences", etc.
Only a tiny minority of people who make this argument understand what they are talking about. Please read about and try to get a basic understanding of the issues involved. I did, and once I did I was surprised to find myself in agreement with RMS.Anti RMS argument #4) "GNU/Hurd is so late, it will never get working, blah blah blah."
Yes, eveyone knows GNU/Hurd is late... so what? Nobody's suffering waiting for it, they can use the Linux kernel. This is part of the beauty of Free Software. We don't need to wait for a central authority to create tools we need... we can get them from other people or do it ourselves.
* * * *
I think that the more you understand the issues involved, the more you understand how critical it is to be aware of the PHILOSOPHY behind free software, not just the "coolness" of it. The main purpose of free software is to help us remain free, not just to be good practical tools or to save us a few dollars (though these are also important).
I have met many people in person who express a negative view of RMS and/or the GPL. Most of the time, once they learn about the issues involved, the majority change their views. I implore anyone who feels negativly about RMS to at least read about the FSF philosophy. [gnu.org]
Re:Glad this meeting took place (Score:5, Insightful)
And they still come down to: Little Johnny won't let me play with his ball and I'm going to whine about it. It's Linux. There's no GNU in front of it. If Stallman wants it to be called GNU/Linux, then he should get his development team into gear and get Hurd ready. I don't care if the tools used for Linux were GNU. At my job, we use MSVC++, but you don't hear us calling our stuff MSVCC++/Project name. Personally, I think it's time for someone to rewrite the GNU stuff and make Linux GNU-free just so he can get off his stupid agenda.
Free software IS marginal today. Open Source software is, as well, but it enjoys higher mindshare. Free Software != Open Source, see RMS vs. ESR upon the distinction. One is a religion, the other is a development model.
Stallman *is* biased towards the GPL and would prefer to see everything to be licensed using his babies L/GPL. He begrudgingly accepts the other licences because to deny them (that fit his definition of "free software") would make him a hypocrite instead of a whining little baby.
It's called putting your money where your mouth is. If he's so intent in creating a totally free OS, then get on it. Invest the money, invest the time, whatever, quit talking, let's see what you've got.
I understand the PHILOSOPHY behind free software, it's altruism (unlike Open Source). Free Software presupposes some kind of "right" to source code (if the FSF had their way, anyway), a "betterment of mankind" kind of arguement (we heard that with Marx, Jesus, and whatnot). OpenSource leaves behind the rotten philosophy and says "Hey, look, here's a really good model for development", but does not villify the developers from controlling their software if they choose not to release the source.
Re:Glad this meeting took place (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Glad this meeting took place (Score:3, Insightful)
Argument 1: It may be that he has presented solid ground for calling the mish-mash of software used by most distros "GNU/Linux", but why did he bring it up at a KDE event? KDE works on all sorts of different operating systems. Why call it KDE/GNU/Linux when lots of people are using FreeBSD to run it?
No. KDE was always Free software. There was a licensing problem with the combination of KDE and the QT toolkit a while bac
Many pearls in the article... (Score:2)
Strange to see a pic of RMS with others... (Score:2)
I wonder.
Resizing emacs windows (Score:3, Informative)
I'm pretty sure emacs has paid attention to SIGWINCH for many years now... Not being a KDE user, I don't have konsole, but I just ran emacs 21.3 in an xterm (emacs -nw), and emacs resized properly when I resized the xterm window. Also works in a PuTTY ssh session.
No RMS its SCO/Linux (Score:5, Funny)
France (Score:5, Funny)
Now we're gonna have to call it Freedom Linux.
As Shakespeare said... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:first blow job! (Score:2, Funny)
Slashdot - where advice on removing the taste of semen from your mouth is "redundant."
I'm sure you understand :) (Score:2)
Names give things power, gives them shape and meaning and context.
Linux is the kernel. That's all.
GNU softawre is GNU software. A large portion of it is used in any distro, it's unavoidable, and to use the name GNU/Linux is to give GNU credit where credit is due.
Note, i don't necessarily say GNU/Linux, but I do say Debian or RedHat, etc.
I use Fink; among other things, it's a port of the GNU system onto OS X. Fink is not a p
Re:Recommended programming language (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't see the FSF recommending Java, since it hardly qualifies as "Free", so it would seem that C++ would be exactly the language they would recommend.
Re:Recommended programming language (Score:5, Informative)
Problem is the g++ gnu compiler sucked ass until recently. Even today it compiles code slow. Many people saw how bloated and slow the badly compiled programs were and assumed C++ sucked. Alot of this was in the late 80's and early 90's when computers were alot slower and a new wave of thinking from recent CS grads who never had to write programs in kb's rather then megs. Old Unix hackers had to use assembly to cut down on cpu and memory. Code wasting cpu cycles and memory for gui's and object oriented programming, and solving relationships was blaspemy. The mac was hated for years because of this. Even though it had a workstation class processor that could cream an 8086 pc. It was assumed no cpu cycles were left to do anything usefull. That was a lie. Infact during this time sed was written just because ED and VI were viewed as too bloated. Also sed was usefull in scripting which is why it lasted but I remember the author complaining about huge memory and sed was the answer. Today this is silly but some still are biased who are from this era. RMS definetly was from this that time.
They also only do functional and not object oriented programming most of the time. It is true that over doing it and calling everything as an object is bad. Both Linux and FreeBSD use objects even though they are mostly functional programs. It really is appropriate in alot of situations.
Objects have their uses and desktop gui's is certainly one of them. Object oriented programming is great for simulations which a desktop is. Its really a virtual 2d desk with a word processor as a paper pad, a spreadsheet as a balance book, and a web browser as large book with links as a toc.
Similiating a desk and writing event driven programs certainly needs to be done in a object oriented manner. It can be done without objects but it would be difficult and could easily produce buggy code. Doing object oriented programming in C certainly does not make sense and is ugly. C is a low level language and not designed for it. You need to write alot of code in c for the equilivant in many other languages that are not as high level. C was designed to write device drivers and operating systems.
Early versions of gnome are examples of object oriented programming gone bad in C. Remember in the old days of starting gnome from a command prompt and seeing page upon page of errors? I believe newer versions of gnome have alot more C++ and perl code in the bonoboo objects. This is smart and wise. Also alot of the wheel was reinvented by implementing objecting oriented libraries in C when they were already available in C++.
This is why KDE took off. Now KDE is becomming too complex and cluttered and gnome is getting cleaner after they finished rewriting the api's and gnome itself from a clean start.
FYI, the FSF makes a Free version of Java. You do not need to depend on Sun or IBM.
Re:Recommended programming language (Score:3, Informative)
Uh, I think you meant procedural not functional. Lisp is a functional programming language, C is a procedural language. There is a big difference - Linux and FreeBSD are definately not written in a functional language!
Re:Thanks for the wank material (Score:2)
Re:$$$$$i (Score:2)
Re:$$$$$i (Score:5, Funny)
Ballmer: Palladium is now the ultimate power in the cyberuniverse. I suggest we use it.
Stallman: Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed, Mr. Gates. The ability to dominate the planet is insignificant, next to the power of Open Source.
Ballmer: Don't try to frighten us with your Hippy ways, Lord Stallman. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion hasn't given you the power to conjure up the stolen code, nor helped us find the rebels hidden serv- *urk* *gaak*
Stallman: I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Gates: Enough of this! Stallman, release his server!
Stallman:As you wish. *virtual thud*
Gates: This bickering is pointless. Lord Stallman will provide us with the IP of the rebels hidden server by time Palladium is operational. We will then crush the rebellion with one swift lawsuit.
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(I wrote this one for a post a long time ago but it fits here
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