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Bid On eBay To Speed Up Your Commute 632

Posted by simoniker from the lastminute-sniping-stops-drive-home-griping dept.
malfunct writes "The traffic in the greater Seattle area is atrocious, and the State Government has been working hard to find a way to solve the issue. In the interim, they may use eBay as an innovative solution for estimating demand and raising funds. According to a MSNBC article, the plan is to use eBay to sell stickers that allow access for single driver vehicles to the car pool lane. The idea is to use eBay to find just how much a speedy commute is worth to drivers."
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Bid On eBay To Speed Up Your Commute More

Bid On eBay To Speed Up Your Commute

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  • Impressive! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by BubbaTheBarbarian ( 316027 )
    Most Impressive indeed! I like the ldea, and they have little over head (IE a new department) to go along with it.
    Good work!

    • Re:Impressive! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:51PM (#6275032)
      Finally a government agency is publicly admitting that a free market economy has some value.

      Now if they'd just do this with ALL of our taxes.
    • Most Impressive indeed! I like the ldea, and they have little over head (IE a new department) to go along with it.

      I call foul. Conflict of interest!

      At first I couldn't tell whether you worked for the Seattle Planning Commission or Ebay. After taking another look at your grammar and spelling, I realize you must be a Slashdot editor.

    • Makes me sick. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by jcsehak ( 559709 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:59PM (#6275152) Homepage
      Impressive? WTF? The whole point of the carpool lane is to get people to CARPOOL. As in, make a fucking friend at work and drive in with him so you reduce the emissions and cut down on the smog and make the air a little nicer to breathe for everyone. If you can't make a little effort to carpool, you don't deserve a speedy commute. No matter how much you pay.

      So what, now it's not the carpool lane, it's the carpool/rich-lazy-bastard lane? Sickening.

      • Re:Makes me sick. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by stevew ( 4845 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @02:39PM (#6275807) Journal
        There are a couple of major problems with this thinking.

        As a practical matter - Car Pooling lanes do NOT cause car pools to form. That is a statistical fact. In CA - the number of multi-occupant cars does NOT go up as a car pool lane is introduced on a freeway. The only people that manage to use car pools are either 1) existing pools, or 2) Soccer Mom's. That's about it.

        Another problem with this logic is that cars produce MORE polution as they sit and idle in a traffic jam than they would if they were operating at speed at their optimum performance, i.e that gas gets burned more thoroughly.

        The last problem I have with commuter lanes is that the rest of us paid for them, but only 7% of the population can/does take advantage. That is STUPID public policy!

        Now - let's talk about the Seattle concept. So - here my taxes have already PAID for the lane, and being a normal government entity they want to charge me for using the lane again... HUH???

        Another dumb idea brought to you by government bureaucrats.

        • Re:Makes me sick. (Score:3, Insightful)

          by 2short ( 466733 )
          My tax dollars helped pay for all the highway lanes, and I don't use any of them. So get over it.

          If you want to argue that tax dollars shouldn't be used to build any highways; that the should be funded by bonds against toll receipts; i.e. make every highway a toll road, paid for by its users, well in that case I'm with you! Tell me where to sign the petition!

          But as it is, YOUR taxes didn't pay for the HOV lane. OUR takes paid for it. So WE, collectively, should decide whether it should be an HOV lane

      • Re:Makes me sick. (Score:3, Interesting)

        by The Vulture ( 248871 )
        While carpooling is a nice idea, try actually making it work in the Bay Area.

        A lot of different companies have different work schedules for employees. Even though my ex-roommate and I worked within a few miles of each other, carpooling was impractical.

        It seemed that on the days that I got to leave early, I had to leave late. On the days that he got to leave early, I had to leave late. And part of being friends with a person means that you don't subject them to that kind of crap ("Hey dude, I have to wo

  • Bad, bad, BAD idea (Score:4, Insightful)

    by JayBlalock ( 635935 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:45PM (#6274954)
    eBaying? Unless they let it go on for a LONG time so they can find a statistical mean, it's just going to represent the upper-echelon of prices paid. Judging the value of things by their auction price, unless you're talking about one-of-a-kinds, is going to result in hideous inflation. No matter how useless something is, there will be someone, somewhere, who's willing to shell out big money for it.

    • Re:Bad, bad, BAD idea (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sulli ( 195030 ) * on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:48PM (#6274994) Journal
      That's the point! They're looking for willingness to pay here. There is really only a small number of permits they could sell before the HOV lane gets full and it becomes useless.

      In a time of tight budgets, I for one am all for milking those solo SUV SOBs for all they're worth. (Particularly because I bike to work, hah.)

      • This is nothing new (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Clod9 ( 665325 )
        As one who drives Seattle's roads every day, I can tell you this is par for the course for our state government. They can't decide how to solve the problem (because they're too busy siphoning off transportation money to fill someone's pockets), so they look for hair-brained "solutions" to make it look like they're doing their job. There is no interest in emissions -- first and foremost, the carpool lanes here are designed to reduce congestion by reducing the number of cars on the road. By selling exemptions

      • Re:Bad, bad, BAD idea (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @02:19PM (#6275494) Homepage
        The coolest part could be the sticker costs are directly coupled to the physical size and weight of the vehicle + efficency.. A honda insight's sticker should cost $5.00 while a Hummer - H2 should cost $500.00... and I'd give the cops the right to revoke the sticker for any traffic violation in those lanes... stop the idiot soccer mom screaming along at 95mph on the bumper of a VW bug.

        rewarding those that look for efficency and safety while punishing the dangerous glutton just might be a radical enough idea to get someone's attention.

        • The coolest part could be the sticker costs are directly coupled to the physical size and weight of the vehicle + efficiency.. A honda insight's sticker should cost $5.00 while a Hummer - H2 should cost $500.00

          How would that help to reduce traffic congestion at all? Does a Hummer cause more traffic than a Honda Insight. The goal is to determine how much free flowing traffic is worth, not to improve individual efficiency. Setting the price at all, other than a minimum, would defeat the whole purpose. T

      • Re:Bad, bad, BAD idea (Score:5, Insightful)

        by cybermace5 ( 446439 ) <g.ryan@macetech.com> on Monday June 23, 2003 @02:35PM (#6275742) Homepage Journal
        I don't care how much they are willing to pay.

        The only way traffic will get better *anywhere* is to have less cars on the road. I've taken to driving during non-standard commuting periods, just to get away from the idiots that clog up the roads with their little mind games and feuds from 7:00 to 8:30.

        I don't care if someone is willing to fork over the equivalent of my yearly wages, just so they can drive in the carpool lane. It doesn't do anything to help the traffic problem. The carpool lane should be for carpoolers, and what governments *everywhere* should be doing, is providing incentives to carpool no matter if there is a lane for it or not.

        For example, buddy up with four co-workers and get a special group card that gives you a tax break at the gas pump. Maybe not the most workable idea, but you get the point.

        I pay taxes to have driveable roads, not maintain a nice little racket run by the state, to squeeze us for all we're worth.

  • Are people willing to pay for speed? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by twoallbeefpatties ( 615632 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:45PM (#6274956)
    The threat of an $X00 speeding ticket doesn't seem to deter them from dangerous driving...

  • Feedback (Score:5, Funny)

    by mtnbkr ( 8981 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:45PM (#6274959)
    If your commute doesn't improve by much, can you leave negative feedback?

    Chris
  • I think this could work for the east coast and interstate 95 as well and force people to find the side roads. South Florida traffic is madness 24/7.

  • For $25... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:45PM (#6274962)
    I'll ride in your car with you on the way to work, so you can go in the carpool lane.
  • I live in Canada and I feel like buying one!

  • Bad idea... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Marx_Mrvelous ( 532372 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:46PM (#6274966) Homepage
    This could lead to some really bad economic decision. eBay is not a fair marketplace, especially in areas like this. We're operating in the extreme portion of the demand curve here. These extremely rare (unless they sell thousands of them) items might be very sought after by the $300k/year executive who hates his morning drive. If they price further sales based on a few eBay auctions, they might end up only catering to the very rich.

    Not to mention they will be operating well above the point where they will make the largest (potential) profit.

    • Re:Bad idea...(so what?) (Score:5, Insightful)

      by havaloc ( 50551 ) * on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:50PM (#6275021) Homepage
      If someone is willing to pay a lot of money for something, why shouldn't they? eBay is a very fair marketplace. It allows sellers to obtain maximum value for their product. If someone wants to pay more for something, why not let them? With state budget crunches (although I beleive that cutting spending is the answer), this will only help, and not harm anyone.
      Honestly, people get bent out of shape if someone is willing to pay for something that you aren't. Why is this?

      • Re:Bad idea...(so what?) (Score:5, Interesting)

        by indead ( 673554 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:58PM (#6275136)
        Possibly because the roads are public property, intended for use by everyone - not a consumer good.

        Do you think you should be able to pay extra to have the police or fire department respond to your calls faster than they do to someone who cannot pay extra? Please also explain why or why not.

        Now obviously, this isn't the same as preferred law enforcement priviledges, but it's still letting certain people pay to break the rules.
        • Possibly because the roads are public property, intended for use by everyone - not a consumer good.

          I guess you don't like driving on a toll-way either.

        • Re:Bad idea...(so what?) (Score:3, Informative)

          by Qzukk ( 229616 )
          Where I used to live, the volunteer fire department did something like that. People had to pay the fire department either a low yearly fee to be a member, or $200 per truck that responded to their fire if they weren't a member. Plus, members received preference while dispatching, so if you were not a member, and were unlucky enough to have a fire the same time as a member did, you would have to wait until the member's fire was assessed to see how many trucks would be needed before a truck was dispatched t
      • Let's talk about oversimplified supply and demand like you learned in high school.

        When a consumer is willing to pay more than a producer is selling for, the consumer has an obvious benefit. The sum of these benefits (consumer valuation - price) over all the consumers is the consumer surplus. There is a similar concept for producer surplus that takes longer to explain.

        Auctions (in theory) eliminate the consumer surplus. That's why people complain about them: they like their share of the consumer surplus.

        T
    • Seriously... price increases are a normal part of market forces. I didn't accept that until I saw the devastation of Hurricane Andrew in 92. To make sure that supply runs smoothly and near-infinitely, price must match demand. With that in mind, they should have a two-tiered system to minimize the economic impact... premium, standard and free.
    • I don't think they are looking for the point where supply meets demand. If they did that then then the carpool lane would end up marginally faster than a normal lane. I think they are trying to create a shortage so they can make money without ruining the idea of the carpool lane.
    • Right. Because catering to the rich is a very bad idea. It's not like they have money they're willing to spend. No, they stuff it all their mattress and HORDE it so NO ONE ELSE can have it. Yup. That's what they do alright. No point in spending any money, no siree bob.

    • How do you know that:

      (a) Not a representative number are sold
      (b) In the case a smaller number are sold, that the sales price is completely misinterpreted to be valid for a much larger number of tickets
      ?
      Tor

  • Defeat the purpose? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by pizen ( 178182 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:46PM (#6274970)
    If everyone is able to buy their way into the carpool lane doesn't that defeat the purpose? Isn't the carpool lane supposed to reward drivers for reducing their fossil fuel emmissions?
    • Well now it will reward people who have A+++++++++++++++A+++++++++ great tranaction WOULD USE AGAIN in their profile

    • Re:Defeat the purpose? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by M-G ( 44998 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:52PM (#6275050)
      If everyone is able to buy their way into the carpool lane doesn't that defeat the purpose?

      To some extent. But carpool lanes have been around for a long time, and basically don't work. Think about all the tasks you frequently do on your way to and from work, or on your lunch break, etc. It's tough to stop and pick up your dry cleaning when you're riding in someone else's car.

      So the carpool lanes are a lane that could be used for traffic, but is instead sitting there underutilized. If you remove the restriction from it and ease overall congestion, you're now creating a benefit in terms of pollution.

      Of course, the idea of selling access to the lane is rather stupid, IMO. The taxpayers paid for the lane to be contructed and maintained, so selling limited access to it is a sneaky way for the state to generate extra revenue.

      • Re:Defeat the purpose? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by YrWrstNtmr ( 564987 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @02:29PM (#6275645)
        Think about all the tasks you frequently do on your way to and from work, or on your lunch break, etc. It's tough to stop and pick up your dry cleaning when you're riding in someone else's car.

        Yeah, but you're not doing those things every day.

        Want to reduce rush hour traffic by 10%? Virtually eliminating jams? Find an alternate way to work twice a month. Every other Wednesday, for instance. Ride with your buddy, bus, bike, whatever.
        If we could average that, the problem would mostly go away.
        Sadly, this will never happen. The American public is far to self-centered.

        So the carpool lanes are a lane that could be used for traffic, but is instead sitting there underutilized. If you remove the restriction from it and ease overall congestion, you're now creating a benefit in terms of pollution.

        Building more roads to combat congestion is like buying a bigger belt to combat obesity.
        Traffic, much like data, increases to fill the available space. Not until a certain road becomes too much of a hassle or takes too long do people look at alternative routes to work.

        so selling limited access to it is a sneaky way for the state to generate extra revenue.

        I don't like it either. Those lanes were put in with the admission proce being >1 person in the car. Changing the rules to allow pay to play is simply wrong, IMHO.

        • Re:Defeat the purpose? (Score:3, Interesting)

          by M-G ( 44998 )
          Want to reduce rush hour traffic by 10%? Virtually eliminating jams? Find an alternate way to work twice a month.

          Or work hours that allow you to avoid the peak traffic periods. Obviously not every job has that kind of option, but many companies could help a great deal if they'd set up their shift workers on an offset schedule.

          Traffic, much like data, increases to fill the available space.

          To some extent, yes. Various anti-car organizations are always against adding lanes or building new roads, with t
        • an alternate way to work twice a month. Every other Wednesday, for instance.

          Who regulates this? Who makes sure that enough people take unpopular days? How would a ~15% reduction virtually eliminate traffic?

          Building more roads to combat congestion is like buying a bigger belt to combat obesity.
          Traffic, much like data, increases to fill the available space. Not until a certain road becomes too much of a hassle or takes too long do people look at alternative routes to work.

          Um. Your analogy is seriously f

    • Re:Defeat the purpose? (Score:4, Informative)

      by SplendidIsolatn ( 468434 ) <splendidisolatn@nOSPAm.yahoo.com> on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:53PM (#6275063)
      Everyone isn't able to buy it. There are a limited number. If they determine that an extra 100 or 200 cars per day in the lane won't matter (and having driven in HOV lanes, that's a lowball estimate) and they can generate $X amount of revenue, which never hurts, and can help fund things to benefit everyone....

      Also, carpool lanes are just as much about cramped parking in Metro areas as fossil fuel emmissions.

    • Re:Defeat the purpose? (Score:5, Informative)

      by rcs1000 ( 462363 ) * <<moc.liamg> <ta> <0001scr>> on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:53PM (#6275069)
      Ummm.

      I think you're missing the point. The state is trying to work out how much drivers will pay to get into the carpool lane. That is, this is an excercise.

      So, they auction (say) 1,000 car pool stickers for a month in the fast lane (so to speak). By seeing what price is paid on eBay, they can calculate what pricing will allow new road building, public transport investment etc.

      I live in Central London (in England). They recently imposed a congestion charge. Had they used eBay first, they might have discovered that the "correct" price was £3, not £5 to get traffic down to required levels.

      Further, eBay is not a bad mechanism to rationing. Spaces in the car pool lane are a scarse resource (they won't sell more than they have room for... actually this government, scratch that) - why not work out what the right charge is using eBay, not by a fiat (or guess work).
    • Single passenger vehicles have NO business in the HOV lane. That's why it's called HOV: High Occupancy Vehicle (though "high occupancy" apparently means 2 here in Washington). If you want to drive in the HOV lane, get a passenger. Otherwise, use the 4 OTHER LANES!!

      Seriously, I think it's quite obvious there's more than one person commuting from Kent to Seattle every morning and evening so you'd have no problem finding a carpool partner. If you need to run errands during the day, use the bus tunnel --

      • Re:No passenger = No HOV privileges (Score:5, Insightful)

        by realdpk ( 116490 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @02:10PM (#6275303) Homepage Journal
        4 other lanes? WTF are you talking about 4 other lanes? I think you may need to check again. Going through downtown Seattle there are 4 HOV lanes, and part of I-5 is constricted down to 2 lanes for a time. 3 of those HOV lanes are so-called "express lanes" (it may even be 4 lanes, I don't know. I'm rarely on 'em.)

        I for one am sure not happy about paying extra taxes so that other people can use their "elite" lanes, when my car barely pollutes at all (in fact, it was getting zeros at the emissions places, and the last check was VERY close to zero).

        The problem is our transit infrastructure is *atrocious*. If you're not within a mile from a transit center, you're going to be waiting 30-60 minutes for a bus (which may not even arrive; bad track record), so you can take a 45 minute ride in to town. Most peoplw will not put up with this.

        Carpooling is a poor answer as well. The timing issues are very difficult to work out. You have two people heading in to work, and say one person has to work late. They're completely screwed and have to take a taxi home (because they probably don't have bus service near their place, as most of the citizens in the region do not), which will cost $20-$50, at least.

        Of course, the REAL answer is - people should live near where they work. The city should be designed so that this can be possible for the majority of workers. Nobody should ever be commuting from Kent to Seattle - it's a rediculous notion.

        • Re:No passenger = No HOV privileges (Score:5, Informative)

          by Omega ( 1602 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @03:02PM (#6276147) Homepage
          4 other lanes? WTF are you talking about 4 other lanes?
          I-5 south of the downtown and north of Northgate -- 4 unrestricted lanes, 1 lane of HOV. South of Northgate and north of Beacon Hill there are NO HOV lanes. There are "express lanes" but these are not restricted to high occupancy vehicles, they just offer limited exits.
          Going through downtown Seattle there are 4 HOV lanes...
          These are NOT HOV lanes, they are express lanes [wa.gov].
          ...and part of I-5 is constricted down to 2 lanes for a time.
          Yes, "part of a time" = between 2 downtown exits (i.e. 1/10th of a mile). Why? Because Capitol Hill is already chopped off from Downtown. Do you want to tell the people in West Capitol Hill or in East Downtown that they have to give up there homes so you can go 5mph faster for 1/10th of a mile?
          I for one am sure not happy about paying extra taxes so that other people can use their "elite" lanes...
          Right, these lanes are so bourgeois. You need to drive with ONE other person in order to use them. Jeez, talk about high society. And unless you slept through referrendum 51 it's quite apparent that the transportation budget is only being used for widening. Not for 31337 drivers with their aristocratic carpooling.
          The problem is our transit infrastructure is *atrocious*.
          I love it when people criticize public transit because it's too poor to meet their needs while simultaneously crying foul when someone suggests increasing funding to improve the transit system. So many people in Seattle seem to chortle at the idea that a new, expanded monorail could be built; but then they turn around and vociferously oppose any initiatives to build one.
          Carpooling is a poor answer as well. The timing issues are very difficult to work out. You have two people heading in to work, and say one person has to work late.
          Are you familiar with King County's carpooling program at all? Do you know about "guaranteed ride home?" Or do you just dismiss the idea outright and not bother looking into it at all? Do you work with anyone else who happens to live in the same area? I work with at least 3 other people who live in my neighborhood -- and we all pretty much keep the same hours.
          Of course, the REAL answer is - people should live near where they work.
          On this, I agree. I live in Queen Anne and work in Downtown. I can take Metro or the monorail or I can bike. But this isn't an option for a lot of people, and car/vanpooling offers a real solution. I see too many cars on the freeway with just 1 person in them. And I guarantee that 90% of those people make the same trip at the same time and from similar origins and destinations as at least one other person on the road.
    • Isn't the carpool lane supposed to reward drivers for reducing their fossil fuel emmissions?

      I was just going to post about this very same thing. It's all well and good that people want to get to work faster, but if everybody is able to use the same High-Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lanes, its effectiveness in speeding up traffic is going to be greatly reduced.

      I say that, if people want to get to work that much faster, they have to do something about it. Raise the bar a little bit -- make HOV participati

      • Re:Defeat the purpose? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by realdpk ( 116490 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @02:13PM (#6275352) Homepage Journal
        How about replacing the HOV lanes with real high occupancy vehicles - rail. That'd solve a number of problems. The land is already purchased. It's already in the most occupied areas. It would handle far more people than busses and 2 person cars.

        The key to it would be frequent runs. What we have now, with the Sounder rail, is absolutely laughable. It's what, two runs per direction per day? What a joke.

  • But Why? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by swordofstars ( 682648 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:47PM (#6274978) Homepage Journal
    Does it seem to anyone else that this will just end up with another crowded lane, especially if there are too many stickers sold? And isn't the whole point to keep that lane uncontested so people actually use it? This is just another example of government trying to get every dollar they can, and pandering to corporate interest.

    • Re:But Why? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Imperator ( 17614 ) <slashdot2 AT omershenker DOT net> on Monday June 23, 2003 @02:01PM (#6275175)
      This is just another example of government trying to get every dollar they can, and pandering to corporate interest.
      Corporate interest? Which ones exactly? As far as I know there are no significant automotive or oil interests in Seattle. There are few corporations with an interest in traffic of all things. No, this is the government pandering to people who live in the suburbs, work in the city, and for whatever reason refuse to carpool or use public transportation. For once it's actually pandering to the people--at the expense of smog and long-term road maintenance costs, mind you.

  • carpooling (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dirvish ( 574948 ) <(dirvish) (at) (foundnews.com)> on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:47PM (#6274986) Homepage Journal
    Doesn't that lessen the incentive to carpool? Why are going to carpool if you have to share the carpool with a bunch of rich wankers who can afford stickers? The carpool lane encourages the ecologically friendlier practice of carpooling and that should be its focus.

  • Great idea!!!! (Score:5, Funny)

    by jjh37997 ( 456473 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:48PM (#6274988) Homepage
    Seller was awesome! Totally fast shipping! Great communication! I love my sticker and will buy again! A+++++++

  • What will happen (Score:2, Insightful)

    by generic-man ( 33649 )
    This is like buying tickets for a sporting event or concert, or the domain-name speculation game.

    Speculators will bid up to enormous prices for the stickers, then will resell them to desperate motorists, making a profit.

    eBay is not necessarily a factor in determining how much something is really worth. For certain collector's items, the item may sell at a much lower price than book value if there is not a captive market (people may want to inspect a coin or medallion in person, for example). For other i

    • Say what? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by raehl ( 609729 ) *
      "100 people bid at least $1,000 for these 100 stickers. There's no way the market would bear a price like that."

      It's an AUCTION. By DEFINITION, the price is exactly what the (online auction) market will bear.

    • Re:What will happen (Score:3, Insightful)

      by f97tosc ( 578893 )
      eBay is not necessarily a factor in determining how much something is really worth.

      Your assumption is that there is such a thing as an objective evaluation of things.

      Sorry, but on eBay (or for that matter in free markets in general) everybody is allowed to decide subjectively what something is worth to them. There is no objective value of a quick ride to work; it depends on the persons income and impatience.

      This is like buying tickets for a sporting event or concert, or the domain-name speculation

  • Fresh ideas (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TopShelf ( 92521 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:48PM (#6274993) Homepage Journal
    This provides an interesting opportunity to assess the "worth" of HOV lanes from an entirely new perspective. It would be interesting to see how such a market-based approach would value these high-speed lane projects, as opposed to the traditional multi-year study process that planning boards typically use today. What would be required is growth and maturation of the market in these stickers so one could get an estimate of the overall demand.

    My guess is that the valuation would come in lower than today's standards, due to many parties who use the roads not participating (infrequent drivers, interstate drivers, etc.).

  • hm... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by dema ( 103780 )
    This sounds like a good idea, but will it really be full-proof? I could see people running up the prices just for fun. Using an internet bidding system as a census to see what people will pay for something seems like a good idea in theory. But I hope they make it a private auction or use some kind of security to AT LEAST make sure the people bidding even live in the area. Also, should an available lane on a highway really be "given out" in accordance to what someone is willing to pay? The car-pool lane

  • Flawed... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by HowlinMad ( 220943 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:50PM (#6275018) Homepage Journal
    The articles states that you would get a 3 inch square sticker on the right side of the windshield. Ok, lets say I win one for the month of July.... and now its August, I still hae the sticker. Now you could argue to put a date on it, but I defy a cop to spot the date on a 3 inch square while the car is traveling 65 mph. I suppose you could color code, it, but even that has its limits. I see this as a potential problem.
    • change the color...just like w/ vehicle registrations stickers.
    • Almost every state has been using color coded (by month) inspection stickers for decades.
    • a 3x3" sticker could easily be photocopied even if you DO change the color every month. Try spotting a fake at 70MPH when the fake is almost perfect to begin with.

      Even if a sticker was $100/mo (or more), make 8-10 photocopies for your "friends" and it's suddenly only $10/month.

      MadCow.

    • Re:Flawed... (Score:3, Informative)

      by deranged unix nut ( 20524 )
      You haven't seen seattle traffic.

      Or at least on I520 westbound, just prior to the bridge, the cops are on FOOT pulling people over for using the carpool lane when they only have one person in the car.

      Check out the puget sound traffic map [wa.gov].

      From 4pm to 7pm, at least a few spots on the map will be black. Back means that traffic is moving between 20 MPH and completely parked. And the majority of what is measured is freeway.

      A 20 minute commute in good traffic can be a 3 hour commute in bad traffic! Traffic

  • It's about time! (Score:4, Funny)

    by nob ( 244898 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:50PM (#6275020) Homepage
    Come on, this is just a thinly veiled attempt at making an old-people-free lane. Since old people generally aren't heavy computer users, let alone heavy eBayers, this lane will be regulated to the young and fast! We've all dreamed of it, and now its here!
    • Soon it will be everyone's Christmas gift to Grandma or Grandpa, who complain all the time about those young punks in their fast cars always wanting to pass them.

  • Separation of Classes? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by TheKubrix ( 585297 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:50PM (#6275024) Homepage
    Ok, so if you have enough money from having a good job, you can get to work early or on time and keep that good job. If you don't have enough money from having a bad job then you'll arrive late and lose that bad job and never move up.

    good thinking there..............

  • Great idea, but legal? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by crow ( 16139 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:50PM (#6275025) Homepage Journal
    That's a great idea, but they'll probably need special permission from the Transportation Department to implement it, or risk losing some of their federal highway funds. The issue is that many urban highway construction projects are funded with conditions requiring HOV (high-occupancy vehicle) lanes (or other specific things to encourage carpooling or mass transit).

    Of course, with the current administration, such a waiver shouldn't be difficult to obtain.

  • Oh, this is bright... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by JudasBlue ( 409332 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:51PM (#6275027)
    Unless I am missing something, the point of high occupancy lanes is to reduce the number of cars on the road in the first place, helping with congestion as well as environmental issues.

    Wouldn't these functions be better served by encouraging more ride share pickup areas and public information about ride sharing?

    Oh, wait, that wouldn't produce new income past the already outrageous taxes involved and that means no new campaign kickbacks. How silly of me.
    • I have a hard time understanding how the Washington Legislature think they can allow single riders when AZ was just threatened by the Feds to have their highway funding pulled for allowing Alternative Fuel vehicles to use their HOV lanes.

      The following article was posted in the Arizona Republic back in Jan '03:

      Bifuel vehicles seen as illegally hogging HOV lanes in Phoenix.

      Source: Arizona Republic [Jan 28, 2003]

      As you crawl along at 5 mph in rush-hour traffic, a few drivers zip by in the car-pool lan

  • Feedback (Score:4, Funny)

    by dunston1212 ( 649931 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:51PM (#6275030) Homepage
    I think this idea is great. I give it an A++++++++++++. Oustanding thinking and clever idea!!!!! I would work with Government again, anytime!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Wow (Score:3, Insightful)

    by hendridm ( 302246 ) * on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:51PM (#6275034) Homepage
    Talk about law makers being blatently biased toward the upper class. If you have enough money, you can buy special priveleges.

    I thought car-pool lanes were designed to encourage a reduction in pollution. So now if you have enough money, environmental concerns don't apply?

    > "It's a lesson in economics," explains Mercer Island's state Rep. Fred Jarrett

    Indeed it is. They're taking the corruption enjoyed by big business who's bottom line can't be bothered by the environment and applying to local laws.

    • Re:Wow (Score:3, Insightful)

      by silentbozo ( 542534 )
      I thought car-pool lanes were designed to encourage a reduction in pollution. So now if you have enough money, environmental concerns don't apply?

      Car-pool lanes are designed to encourage carpooling - which is supposed to reduce the number of cars on the road. If that indirectly (or directly) cuts the amount of pollution, that's great, but speeding traffic is the main goal. Unfortunately, in many areas, the HOV (high-occupancy-vehicle) lanes are rarely used, which leads to many drivers complaining that
  • I'm just thinking, what will be the difference in the cost of buying a pass, versus going into the carpool lane anyway and taking the chance of getting a traffic ticket? I see single-occupancy vehicles in the carpool lane all the time, so I don't see that this will change anything.
  • Out east we have toll roads.. And bridges. They allow a "Pay for use" model for roads. You can go around them and pay no toll but it will probably take you longer.

    I wonder how many people changed routes when they doubled the tolls on the eastern end of the mass pike?

    I still don't get how toll roads can also be interstates..
    • Interstates that are toll roads were roads before the Interstate Highway Act 1952. In the provisions of the act, these roads can be toll-roads if the state chooses, and whatever toll system the state wants. Roads built under the Act (with Federal monies) cannot be toll roads. Hence the mix.
  • An auction is the wrong way to set the price for something like a car pool lane. The reason is that if too many slots are sold, the value of the car pool lane goes down. i.e. the carpool lane is jammed full of cars.

    They need to figure out how many slots they need to sell, then figure out the demand curve for the product. The price should be figured from that curve, so that not too many are sold.
  • Now that the "non" carpool cars can drive on the "fast" lane. An say alot of people fork over the dough. Will the "fast" lane be fast or will they then have to pay McMonkey McBean aka the seller of the tickets, for the privledge of riding in the newest fastlane, the old ones.
  • Some states already have implemented this idea by creating special for-pay commuter lanes. They're called "Lexus lanes". It's bad enough to be excluding people who drive a long way but don't make much money -- but to give over a legitimate carpool lane to the fatcat drivers with more money than sense? The mind boggles.

  • What about Slugging? (Score:5, Informative)

    by stomv ( 80392 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:55PM (#6275090) Homepage
    In Washington DC the community slugs [slug-lines.com] their way into the HOV lanes.

    In a nutshell, folks driving alone on common routes who want to drive in the HOV lane pick up (car-less) complete strangers who also travel the same route. The driver gets to work more quickly. The passenger gets a free ride. The community gets less pollution and less traffic. Everybody wins.

    If only Seattle would pick up on the trend! T'would solve their problems without any additional govenrment intervention whatsoever... without destroying the benefit of the HOV lanes.
  • Carpool lanes were a great experiment, but a failed experiment. Trying to force people to carpool by opening up carpool only lanes only works if people are willing to share their car in the first place. Many people are not and would rather spend hours in traffic than share what is likely their only time alone in the car with other people.

    Carpool lanes only serve to remove a viable lane for traffic and restrict it to 5-10% of drivers, much like special lanes in Soviet Moscow for the communist party leader

  • Don't think that's gonna work... (Score:3, Funny)

    by jwriney ( 16598 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @01:58PM (#6275145) Homepage
    1. Scroll down to description of auction
    2. Click on picture of sticker
    3. Print out onto sticker paper
    4. Profit!

    --riney

  • Mass transit? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by nightsweat ( 604367 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @02:08PM (#6275277)
    Or, you know, they could expand a light rail system or seven instead.

    Actually, I think this is a great idea if the money from the stickers is used to build appropriate light rail.

  • I'm surprised.... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by greymond ( 539980 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @02:09PM (#6275286) Homepage Journal
    I'm a solo driver

    If I am in a hurry I will speed
    If Iou are in my way I will go around you
    I will cut you off
    I will use the Car Pool lane
    Because MY needs come before yours

    Someday I may get a ticket, but until then why would I pay to do what I do now for free

    yes I am an ass on the road :)-

    • Re:I'm surprised.... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by jhines0042 ( 184217 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @02:43PM (#6275871) Journal
      And it's people like you that make traffic much worse than it needs to be. Cutting people off, tailgating, causing traffic accidents... all of these things cause more traffic than it solves.

      Think about it like math. If the average speed of the cars on the road is finite number whose upper bound is controlled by several factors, traffic density being the primary factor, then if one person attempts to go significantly over the average speed that the road can handle under those conditions then necessarily every other car must slow down a little bit just to accomodate.

      Since many people believe that their needs are more important than the needs of the whole (as you have so clearly stated in your post) then everyone who believes that tries to go faster than the average.

      Ordinarily this would raise the average speed. But clearly that isn't the case. Because as speed increases, safety demands that the space between cars needs to increase... this artificially inflates the traffic density numbers (because cars are treated as being "bigger" than they actually are) and so the whole road slows down.

      It is because of this "me first" philosophy that traffic is as bad as it is in the world.

      Its like everyone on the whole road missed the lesson in kintergarden about sharing.

      Stop being an ass on the road, leave yourself enough time to get where you need to go and you won't stress quite so bad when traffic does suck because of the other greedy people on the road that think the way you say you do.

  • Here we (dont) go... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SkewlD00d ( 314017 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @02:12PM (#6275329)
    ... into the future where only rich l337 people have their own private tree-lined, traffic-free highways to/from home. The rest of the people idle in a virtual parking lot, looking at the weeds and garbage (thanks VTA and CalTrans!!!). Just get rid of these stupid carpool lanes.. because you know that getting Americans to use mass-transportation is alot like trying to get us to give up McDonalds (Look how fat we americans are!). The gov't big ideas either give unfair advantages to a small, minority of rich people and screw us all (pay to play); make the problems worse (carpool lanes); or does nothing at all but waste money (VTA Lightrail (san jose), VTA Paratrans). Try something like getting rid of all highways and replace them w/ speedy trains like in japan. Japan is so small relatively, that they couldn't build anymore highways/parking structures/airports etc. so it's faster to ride a train/shuttle/lightrail for most commuting. American towns/cities are wasting money on a polutting, inefficient, uneconomical means of transportation. It would be alot cheaper to have electric trains ran from hydrogen generated by the from fusion reactor. Note that hydrogen is not a primary power source, but a fuel and a good energy transmission carrier medium (for both the fusion reactor and fuel-cells, nuclear vs. chemical). We gotta invest gigabucks in making fusion a reality ASAP!!! These goddamn Bush/Cheney oilmongers want to keep us sucking on the petroleum teats perpetually.

  • What about fakes? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by JediTrainer ( 314273 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @02:22PM (#6275535)
    In Ukraine they had a system years back where many of the roads had 'government lanes'. The idea was that these lanes were reserved for emergency vehicles and vehicles transporting government officials on 'important business', and not for 'the public'.

    The 'government vehicles' had a blue spinning light that they could put on the dashboard and turn on (just like the police ones, but blue). It wasn't long before people figured out that you could pick a light just like the official one up at their equivalent of a Radio Shack, and be able to use the lane yourself.

    So what's going to prevent sticker forgeries? Is a cop going to be able to spot a 3-inch fake while it's moving?

  • Fraud and account Hijacking (Score:3, Informative)

    by nmg196 ( 184961 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @02:24PM (#6275568)
    Unless eBay can sort out the massive amount of fraud [msnbc.com] that's going on right now then I'm never using it again anyway.

    There seems to be an absolutely massive problem at the moment with people hijacking eBay accounts and their associated e-mail addresses and eBay don't seem to want to anything about it.

    Anyone who uses eBay and has a weak password on their e-mail account (or an obvious answer to their secret question) is vulnerable to having their eBay account taken over (complete with e-mail account and credit card details) and used by a Western Union scammer.

    What's a Western Union scammer? Someone who asks to be paid though Western Union (who offer zero buyer protection or tracking of funds) and then simply never ships the item. Western Union seem happy to dish out funds to anyone so the fact that the account is in the wrong name doesn't seem to cause any problems.

    eBay should make it so it's impossible to take over an account by changing the password/and/or e-mail address unless you know lots of personal information (D.O.B., mothers maiden name, etc etc).

    I'm finding it very difficult to get eBay to reply or for any news agencies to give this any publicity.

    Over the weekend I saw about 30 Sony plasma screens advertised (usually "pre-approved bidders only") - almost none of which were legitiate. When you contact the seller - you get a similar message every time - "The item will be shipped from and I would like you to pay though Western Union". They remove them eventually if you complain, but the point is, the fact that more are appearing means that they're still finding it very easy to hijack your account.

    Nick...

  • they need a lesson in economics (Score:3, Insightful)

    by 73939133 ( 676561 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @03:02PM (#6276151)
    It's a lesson in economics, explains Mercer Island's state Rep. Fred Jarrett, No. 2 Republican on the House transportation committee.

    Auctioning off a small number of stickers on eBay will tell them nothing about what most people are willing to pay for these kinds of stickers. He can look up in the literature why. Jarrett should have received his economics education in college, not "on the job", playing around with billions of dollars of taxpayer money.

    Without a plan for new transportation funding, the default is ``apocalypse,'' Jarrett said. ``The system collapses and we have to rebuild it from scratch.''

    That's exactly what they should do: housing density in Seattle and surroundings is high enough that it needs a dense system of public transportation. If they want to lead the nation in new ideas, personal rapid transit deployed along existing highways would combine the convenience of the automobile with the speed of unobstructed highways and it would not require any new land.

    Building more highways just won't work, and letting people buy preferential access to existing highways does absolutely nothing to improve transportation.

  • It is really easy to sell stickers on eBay (Score:4, Funny)

    by saskboy ( 600063 ) on Monday June 23, 2003 @03:48PM (#6276680) Homepage Journal
    In fact, you can sell anything on eBay. Really.

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