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Media Hardware Technology

Next Wave Of Hard Drive Tech: Perpendicular Recording 380

angrytuna writes "New serial technologies are set to replace standard SCSI and ATA (Advanced Technology Attachment) interfaces over the next two years, even as hard-disk drive manufacturers prepare for an entirely new form of bit storage. Perpendicular recording will replace longitudinal recording in storage devices, placing bits on end instead of lying them parallel on the disc surface, thus dramatically increasing the possible storage density."
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Next Wave Of Hard Drive Tech: Perpendicular Recording

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  • by toddhunter ( 659837 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:23AM (#6508408)
    that there is such a crackdown on file-sharing. If they take that away from us, then whats the point of having that much space?
    I wonder which side of the debate the hard-disk manufacturers are on?
    • Re:a shame then (Score:3, Insightful)

      by madsenj37 ( 612413 )
      Not having to compress video and audio, thus not degrading the quality, is one use we would not mind having. It is good for both pros and average users alike.
    • Re:a shame then (Score:5, Informative)

      by Christopher Thomas ( 11717 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:36AM (#6508495)
      a crackdown on file-sharing. If they take that away from us, then whats the point of having that much space?

      Legitimate content.

      It's easy enough to end up with tens of thousands of photographs on your machine if you're in the habit of carrying a digital camera around. Now, think about what happens when you snap video clips the way you currently snap photographs.

      This is already happening. With cameras being integrated into phones, it's growing even more.
      • There needs to be a more efficient way to copy/move/edit giant (video) files before this becomes practical... a RAID setup in every computer is not the answer, faster (exponentially) solid state storage media is.

        ~Berj
        • There needs to be a more efficient way to copy/move/edit giant (video) files before this becomes practical... a RAID setup in every computer is not the answer, faster (exponentially) solid state storage media is.

          Data transfer, be it from a hard drive's platter or from a RAM chip, is a fundamentally serial operation. You have an interface of fixed size (number of bus lines, or number of platters with read heads on them), and are modulating in time to transmit data.

          While there's a big gap between the two -
    • ...or

      Backing up LEGAL movies and music ...or

      Once again, the corporate market.

      Also, if they can be produced cheaper, they'll be used in mail order systems. It's not aways about having the space.

      Ben
    • Re:a shame then (Score:5, Insightful)

      by James_G ( 71902 ) <james AT globalmegacorp DOT org> on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:51AM (#6508573)
      I just stopped on the way home and did some photo shooting. I took 57 photos in about an hour. At 7.2MB per shot, that amounts to ~414MB of files from just an hour of shooting.

      Post-editting results in TIFF files that are approximately 10MB in size. All told, this one shoot now occupies over 800MB on my fileserver - from just one hour of shooting.

      Oddly enough, people do in fact use vast amounts of storage space for reasons other than sharing mp3s and movies. As technologies improve (cameras increase resolution, video cameras likewise, millions of other reasons), the demand for space will increase as it always has done.
    • If they take that away from us, then whats the point of having that much space?

      RAID. As soon as I get enough cash to upgrade my system I plan on getting a RAID array so I don't have to worry about one of these drives failing. My old C: drive is like, 6 years old or something crazy like that.
  • by inode_buddha ( 576844 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:24AM (#6508414) Journal
    If my drive bit is standing up, it must be hard. Ergo, hard drive.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    the hard drive sideways... voila! perpendicular recording ;)
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:25AM (#6508422)
    I am less concerned about the amount of stuff I can put on a hard-drive, and more concerned that the next time I boot up my computer, that stuff will still be there, as harddrives get more and more high-tech, the reliability seems to be taking a big nosedive, how will this effect the reliability of future drives?
    • I am less concerned about the amount of stuff I can put on a hard-drive, and more concerned that the next time I boot up my computer, that stuff will still be there, as harddrives get more and more high-tech, the reliability seems to be taking a big nosedive, how will this effect the reliability of future drives?

      So what your'e saying is: The size of your "hard drive" doesn't concern you. You just want it to be in prime working condition when you do need it? ;)
    • More and more cheap RAID solutions for mid->power users?

      Check out the DFI LANParty series of MoBos with RAIDx1.5 which allows pseudo RAID 0 and 1 with only two drives. Pretty durn click if you ask me, and not at a ridiculous price point either.

      Just a though. (Doesn't actually FIX the problem though)
    • by l810c ( 551591 ) * on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:37AM (#6508499)
      Not to mention backing up that data. Why does backup technology lag so far behind drive technology? 100+ CDR's to backup the typical Hard Drive in today's systems. 25 DVD's, but still WAY too much. A tape sytems to backup the typical hard dirve in a reasonable amount of time costs in the thousands.

      I'd like to see Redundancy And Speed hit the consumer market more than the current volume. RAID 0+1 should be standard in at least mid level systems.

      • by evilviper ( 135110 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @01:09AM (#6508681) Journal
        Why does backup technology lag so far behind drive technology?

        You know, drive technology IS backup technology. Just backup data to hard drives instead of tape or CDs. Also, I believe a big reason is the density of data. No longer can you have something like floppies, where punching a tiny hole in the media won't cause a problem. Now, a speck of dust making a tiny microscopic scratch would ruin megabytes of data on a HDD platter, so they can't make unsealed media like DVDs or tapes that dense, now can they?

        I personally never understood why sealed media never got popular. CDs with caddies would be far better, but people stuck with bare-assed, easily damaged CDs instead. Same problem with DVDs. Minidiscs aren't very popular unfortuanately.

        It's possibly that tightly sealed media could be much higher capacity than currently seen, but who's going to be the one who suggests to their boss that they should try doing something that has failed every other time it has been tried?

        Zip-style disks could potentially provide very high capacities, but they can't expand as quickly as hard drives... To do that, you'd need someing with it's own controller, like CompactFlash or hard drives.

        RAID 0+1 should be standard in at least mid level systems.

        I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "RAID is not a backup technology." When your main disk gets hosed by a virus, a clumsy user, or a system crash, that corruption is coppied to the other disc at light speeds... So what's the point? Offline backups are what is needed. RAID provides a solution for hardware problems, which is important with critical systems, but if the hard drive in my home PC crashes after a year, as long as I can restore a recent backup, and only be down for a few hours, it's not really a problem.
        • Hard drives are _not_ a backup technology. The whole point of tapes/cds/dvds/etc is to decouple the data storage from the reader. Thus the data is often stored in a solid state medium making it less succeptable to failure while the reader often contains lots of moving parts making it more prone to fail. So, if the two are decoupled, when the reader breaks, I just get a new one and my data is safe. But if we 'backup' on a hard drive, and the hard drive crashes or the internal hard drive reader crashes, w
          • by evilviper ( 135110 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @06:13AM (#6509762) Journal
            The whole point of tapes/cds/dvds/etc is to decouple the data storage from the reader.

            No, it is just a techical decision to do things that way... Hard drives are too bulky and expensive for small ammounts of storage, and tape drives are too expensive to have one tape per drive, not to mention the bulk.

            Thus the data is often stored in a solid state medium making it less succeptable to failure while the reader often contains lots of moving parts making it more prone to fail.

            In the real world, that isn't really the case. Your tapes are more likely to be damaged than a hard drive, mainly because the hard drive is extensively sheilded. Moving parts are only a problem after a long long run-time. If a hard drive's mechanical parts were working when you stored it, it will almost certainly work when you need to recover from it... Not to mention that hard drives CAN have everything but the platters swapped if you can find an identical device, or can be recovered manually by any simple data recovery center.

            A RAID array could be considered a backup tech if the array was treated as a backup device

            If you're talking about a live backup, you shouldn't be. One power surge could take out an entire RAID array. If you are talking about off-line, I have no idea why you bring up RAID.

            Backup tapes are known to fail as well... That's why you make two of each, and send one off-site. Even if you aren't that stringent, your backup scheme should certainly have a LOT of redundancy in it, no matter what your media. I would certainly bet that hard drive failures are far more rare than tape failures.
        • PLAY (Score:3, Informative)

          by poptones ( 653660 )
          It's possibly that tightly sealed media could be much higher capacity than currently seen, but who's going to be the one who suggests to their boss that they should try doing something that has failed every other time it has been tried?

          PlaY tried it. Remember them? They had a really neat technology - not bigger than CD but much, much smaller. It was self contained so you could toss a dozen in your pocket like coins. It was actually this close to being a killer technology, then they got too close to the RI

    • I couldn't agree more...

      Let's play a game of Find the Bottleneck!

      Pentium 4 3.0C 800mhz CPU: 6.4 GB/s bandwidth
      Sapphire Radeon 9800 Pro GPU:: 21.8 GB/s bandwidth
      PC3200 DDR-400 RAM: 3.2 GB/s bandwidth
      ATA/133 Hard Drive: 133 MB/s bandwidth

      Now, I'm an avid gamer, and I fully realize that, comparing the performance, of, say, a video card to a hard drive isn't fair, because that video card has to do a lot more work than the hard drive, in a gaming environment. Still, when the video card's capable of pushi
    • as harddrives get more and more high-tech, the reliability seems to be taking a big nosedive

      Not really. HD's are now more reliable than they've ever been; they're just a lot more common (9 HD's in my various systems at home now), and often not treated with the respect such precise electronics need.

      Tips to making sure your HD's at least reach their design life:

      1. Don't buy from that cheapo supplier who's boxes are always a bit mangled. HD's don't like shock, even when they're off.
      2. Keep your drives cool.
    • by Mooncaller ( 669824 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @03:24AM (#6509246)
      as harddrives get more and more high-tech, the reliability seems to be taking a big nosedive

      Talk about ignorant moderation. Sheesh.

      Hard Drives technology is very mature. Every innovation has involved incremental improvments to the same basic tech. So the notion of Hard Drives getting more high tech is false. Second, the reliability of Hard Drives has been steadily increasing in a nearly linear fasion since their introduction in the 60s. There has always been instances of a particular Drive model or model family having difficulties. These are special cases from a statistical point of view. Saying that these models represent the quality of all Hard Drives is like saying that terrorists represents all Irishmen. On top of this, many HD reliability issues are realy HD handeling issues, i.e. originating with the PC manufacturers, not the HD producers. So the second part of the statement is also false, in fact way false.

      how will this effect the reliability of future drives?

      If you bothered to read the full artical, you would know that one of the hold ups of this new approch is quality concerns. The HD manufacturers will not deploy it untill it is suitable for their high end ( i.e. most reliable) Hard Drive lines.

  • by Kris_J ( 10111 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:27AM (#6508431) Homepage Journal
    Why does the article reference interfaces then talk about a new way of storing the bits on the disk survace?
    • Why does the article reference interfaces then talk about a new way of storing the bits on the disk surface?

      They are both big changes in the way hard drives work that will lead to improved performance. They also talked about drive sizes changes (3.5in -> 2.5in)
      • Re:Because (Score:3, Interesting)

        by pla ( 258480 )
        They also talked about drive sizes changes (3.5in -> 2.5in)

        Bah, why always smaller???

        Current HDDs store 50Gb/in^2, and area increases with the square of the radius. That single inch decrease results in literally half the platter area (not counting the spindle). OTOH, with even current areal densities we could have 1TB 5.25" HDDs. THAT would make me a happy consumer.

        But no, that would make too much sense. Instead, they'll shrink the drive, requiring radical new (and untested in the wilds) techno
    • by AllenChristopher ( 679129 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @01:25AM (#6508750)
      It talks about new interfaces because we've been hearing so much about interfaces that it's a familiar topic to which readers will relate, and which can form a bridge into the story. It's a variety of lead paragraph.

      An article which simply jumps into a description of an esoteric subject can seem awkward and be difficult to understand, so journalists have long been taught strategies for lessening that initial impact. Many of these conventions don't play as well in the internet environment because a linking page has already told the reader what the article will really be about. This makes the lead seem like irrelevant wandering.

  • And? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by CompiledMonkey ( 683393 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:27AM (#6508434) Homepage
    In the days of 250GB hard drives, who cares? All I'm concerned about is the speed of drives. Lets improve that for once...
    • trolling ? time for bed ?
      A glance at the article would have told you that the interface changes that are going to be implemented before the perpendicular recording has everything to do with the speed.

      Also, are you saying that "250 GB ought to be enough for anyone forever ?". They have hit a ceiling with the current technology and that is an understandable cause of concern.
    • Re:And? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by SpryGuy ( 206254 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:45AM (#6508544)
      Well, higher density means the same storage in a smaller form-factor, which means the read/write heads have to travel a smaller distance (both radially and logitudinally), which should yield a measurable boost in potential performance... no?
      • Not necessarily (Score:3, Informative)

        A 15k rpm drive can read 500KB in the time it takes to seek to a new piece of data. Now what do you think happens more frequently while you use a computer, seeking to new locations on the disc, or reading contiguous blocks of 500KB or more? Now, unless you are streaming massive amounts of sequential data (eg. HD Video), your bottleneck will be access time, not throughput.

        The rotational speed of the drive is directly related to the access time. If the data you want is on the other side of the platter, y

    • This could conceivably improve performance as well. If you store 8 bits deep, you can read a byte in the same amount of time it takes to read a bit. (It doesn't do much for latency, however.)

      I don't know if you can continue to spin disks as fast with longitudinal arrangements of bits, or if you can actually read 8 bits at once (perhaps not on the same head), but if you can this could be a substantial speed improvement.
      • You're talking about multilayer recording, not perpendicular recording. Multilayer recording is used in magneto-optical stuff.
      • Sag (Score:3, Insightful)

        by leonbrooks ( 8043 )

        If you store 8 bits deep, you can read a byte in the same amount of time it takes to read a bit.

        AFAICT, they're not talking about multi-layer recording, they're just standing the existing bits on end so that the same amount of magnetic material uses up less surface real-estate. <deadpan>If they did multi-layer recording, they'd have to slow the drives down so that the surface of the disk wasn't so stretched by centrifugal "force" and the shallower bits didn't sag into the next cylinder. Otherwise

  • Details? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Christopher Thomas ( 11717 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:28AM (#6508442)
    Does anyone have a link to a description of this that's more detailed than "stacking bits on end"?

    Are they using platters with trenches and storing information on the sidewalls?

    Are they using some means of reading and writing at many depths within the platter without disturbing other layers?

    The article says the technology has been under investigation for 20 years, so presumably there's a forest of technical literature on it.
    • Re:Details? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Gogo Dodo ( 129808 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:56AM (#6508610)
      Essentially, as I understand it, with longitudinal recording the poles of the bits are pointed flat on the surface. Imagine a bar magnet. Put the long flat end of the bar on the platter. That's longitudinal recording.

      With perpendicular recording the bar magnet would be standing on it's end.

      Longitudianl recording is like this:

      N--S

      ------------------- platter
      Perpendicular recording is like this:
      N

      |
      S
      ------------------- platter
      Google is your friend... [google.com]
      • Essentially, as I understand it, with longitudinal recording the poles of the bits are pointed flat on the surface. Imagine a bar magnet. Put the long flat end of the bar on the platter. That's longitudinal recording.

        With perpendicular recording the bar magnet would be standing on it's end.


        Ah.

        Now I vaguely recall someone trying to market floppy drives that did that, about a decade ago.

        Any numbers on what the minimum size of a domain is in each scenario? One of the papers the other posters linked put th
    • Re:Details? (Score:5, Informative)

      by deglr6328 ( 150198 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:57AM (#6508613)
      Goodnight. [ibm.com] :-]
    • Re:Details? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by HiggsBison ( 678319 )
      Oh, to answer your question then:
      Instead of the magnetic field changes being lateral, they are vertical. Don't worry, the substrate is deep enough. It's really just another way to write smaller. Instead of long skinny areas being charged front to back, or back to front, the areas are oriented up and down.
  • by MoreDruid ( 584251 ) <moredruid&gmail,com> on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:29AM (#6508453) Journal
    From the article:

    HDD manufacturers said they expect to start replacing 3.5in. disk drives with smaller 2.5in. devices in enterprise products sometime within the next year.

    Why would they want to do this? Has it something to do with vibrations (or even shattering a disk) due to the extreme rpm's that these drives are running?
    I don't know much about this stuff, so could someone please enlighten me?
    • Several reasons. Here are a couple. It takes less time for the heads to seek from the inside to the outsideof the platter. Smaller platters can be spun at higher rpms without flying apart.
    • by UniverseIsADoughnut ( 170909 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:59AM (#6508628)
      well as it is now the platters in 3.5 inch drives are no longer 3.5 inches, they have been getting smaller as they bump up speed of drives. It's physics, you just can't get speed with a big disk. Since the density of the platters for storage has increase shrinking the diameter has been ok. 3.5 inch drive is more of a form factor at this point, not a actualy dimension for the platters. I think the platters for the WD raptor a 10,000 rpm SATA drive are about 2.5 inches across.

      I like the move to smaller drives, This will be nice as people try to make computers smaller. I would also like to see a mini cd DVD format with mini cd drive only drives, shrink things up some more.

      I'm curious when they will make platters about 1 inch across and stack them on a shaft a few inches long and lay them flat in a drive case, instead of a few vertical slow platters, a whole bunch of horizontal fast small platters.

      The drive is the hold up in speed. It's the mechanical aspects that get hit by physics the most. When they get drives that go faster they can come up with a bus for it without much trouble. But currently why design a interface for HDs that can do say 1 terabyte/s if the drive can't even do 1/1000th of that. The electronics are simple, the drives arn't.

      What ever happen to solid state drives?
      • What ever happen to solid state drives?

        well, there's compact flash. it has a limited number of write cycles but otherwise you have one gig in the size of a postage stamp

        there just hasn't been much demand for solid state drives. most people just use RAM. and RAM based drives are more expensive than RAM.

        • They will happen in time. As time goes by computers will become solid state and very small. Basicly they will be tiny single chip deals that are powerfull as any computer today and cheap as a stamp. Then everything can have a computer doing something. Maybe ones sock will want to message the other socks that is has been lost between the washer and dryer. You get the idea. Micro computers will be a basic building block like steel, wood, and beer.
      • I'm curious when they will make platters about 1 inch across and stack them on a shaft a few inches long and lay them flat in a drive case, instead of a few vertical slow platters, a whole bunch of horizontal fast small platters.

        Drum storage [computer50.org] with a difference. At 10,000 RPM or worse, those suckers would precess [gsu.edu] like crazy. Perhaps they could use paired contra-rotating shafts [lineone.net], good bearings and hope nobody used them for a mobile app. Or build them into Segways. (-:

    • Back in the day (Score:5, Insightful)

      by appleLaserWriter ( 91994 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @01:08AM (#6508676)
      One of the first Sun machines I used was a 3/160 with an external gigabyte disk array. The array was a washing machine size enclosure with a pair of 800 MB SMD disks with 8" platters. In 1994 this was a huge disk, in more ways than one!

      Interestingly, my little 486 with its 340 MB drive were far faster than the old Sun, and even competitive with the newer SparcStations. 7200 RPM baraccudas in modified enclosures (extra fans and breathing holes made the difference between life and death) were even faster when they arrived.

      After working exclucively with laptops for the past two years, I can see a clear parallel between the old 2.5" -> 2.5" transition and the 8" -> 5.25" -> 3.5" transitions in the past. Sure I keep a pair of 120 GB 3.5" disks in firewire enclosures around, but the 60 GB disk in my powerbook and the 30 GB disk in my Dell i8000 are more than adequate for daily use. My ipod even has 30GB, which is enough for my favorite music, the Warthog Jump video and a few other fun things.

      With emphasis on blade and 1-U servers, as well as cardcage oriented telecom gear, I can see a lot of value for 2.5" disks in the telecom and server markets.
    • by zenyu ( 248067 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @01:59AM (#6508913)
      HDD manufacturers said they expect to start replacing 3.5in. disk drives with smaller 2.5in. devices in enterprise products sometime within the next year.
      Why would they want to do this?

      Average Access Time. Ever notice how it hasn't changed much in the last 20 years?
      It was like 10-20ms in 1984 and is like 3-9ms now? No matter how fast you spin the disk or how much cache you add you still need to move the head from one side of the platter to the other. With 5" drives it was a little over 2" with 3.5" its a little over 1", with 2.5" drives 0.75" It's also true that if you make it smaller you can spin it faster, but I don't think 15,000 rpm is really hitting the limits of the materials or they would already have made the platers non-uniform in thickness. They could also go to single crystal metals like they do in aeroplane turbine blades (not so expensive to do in quantity.)

      OTOH The disparity between bandwidth and access time is already embarrasing enough that I consider partitioning just half the space on my drives to improve access time. There are uses for big slow drives. For instance, things like audio and video if artists ever get their act together and jettison the media conglomerate dead weight they are carrying on their backs. Or for backups.

      At this point GBs of hard drive space is like the Mhz thing was with processors. Most consumers just read the density and maybe the dBs and transfer rate, like they used to buy 900Mhz processors and get just 16 MBs of RAM when a 50Mhz Processor with 128MBs of RAM would have been literally thousands of times faster because they were thrashing with too little RAM. Buyers should look at access time, then transfer rate, and then capacity, unless it is for backups or some such tape replacement use. They should partition their drives because real-life filesystems still suck at placing frequently accessed data closely and contiguously for actual access patterns. If people realized this, hard drive manufacturers would do things like have multiple independent heads accessing the same platters, two would be easy, three could probably be done with current technology, and many more could be done with different mechanical linkages (for instance, screews might be slower and less elegant than an arm at moving the heads, but if you could fit fifty heads accessing the platters at once you would probably have better worst and average case access time.) This also would require updating some drivers, but I don't think it would take long considering the performance payoff.
  • i was thinking of purchasing a 120 gb hdisk, looks like i should wait.

    From the article - interface changes indicated in the writeup is going to be implemented very soon (could increase interface bandwidth from 20Mbytes/s to 320Mbytes/s !) while the perpendicular recording is going to take some time to hit the market.

    Could someone explain (/point me to a website) as to what this paragraph means ?

    "We always have concerns about new connectors and backplane designs but those problems are minimized in a seria
    • by Christopher Thomas ( 11717 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:41AM (#6508519)
      Could someone explain (/point me to a website) as to what this paragraph means?

      "We always have concerns about new connectors and backplane designs but those problems are minimized in a serial environment where the wiring is point-to-point,"


      "Connecting devices fast is a lot easier when there's only two of them."
    • I don't have a website handy, but as I understand it, when you're doing high-speed transfers, it's far easier with serial than parallel because you don't have to worry about the bits all getting there at the same time. With parallel, you eventually have to start measuring circuit traces and crazy stuff like that, making design much more challenging.
      • I don't have a website handy, but as I understand it, when you're doing high-speed transfers, it's far easier with serial than parallel because you don't have to worry about the bits all getting there at the same time.

        You can get around this to a large extent by having self-clocked encoding on each of the signal lines, and a data buffer at the end to line things back up (or a series of delay-locked loops to literally line the signals back up).

        The popular parallel connectors (and buses) don't do this, tho
    • You can get ATA->SATA adaptors. You can also get Seral ATA drives and interface cards today.
  • by Allen Varney ( 449382 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:31AM (#6508466) Homepage

    This conversation with Jim Gray [acmqueue.org], head of Microsoft's Bay Area Research Center, has grim, eye-opening comments on the growing gap between storage densities and access speeds/bandwidth. Currently the most effective way to send a multi-terabyte disk array is by UPS -- turns out a UPS truck has a "bandwidth" equivalent to about 7 megabytes/second. And the problem of practical access speeds is only going to get worse. At current and near-future access speeds, searching a 20-terabyte disk might take a year.

    "At the FAST [File and Storage Technologies] conference about a year-and-a-half ago, Mark Kryder of Seagate Research was very apologetic. He said the end is near; we only have a factor of 100 left in density--then the Seagate guys are out of ideas. So this 200-gig disk that you're holding will soon be 20 terabytes, and then the disk guys are out of ideas. The database guys are already out of ideas!"

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • those allready exist, and pretty common to. Many companies sell 2 drive raid setups with firewire connections. Also I have seen people put 4 2.5 inch HD's in a raid setup, and inside a Shuttle XPC of all places.

        I agree on the raid stuff though. I think soon i'm going to start making all my computers with at least a raid 1 setup and even better a 0+1 setup. HD's are getting cheap. RAID interfaces are getting very common, and SATA seams to be bring RAID with it. 4 WD raptors in a box could make for
    • searching a 20-terabyte disk might take a year
      And the 20-TB-question is.... Will you actually find the disk after a year of searching?
    • At current and near-future access speeds, searching a 20-terabyte disk might take a year.

      That's assuming current speeds. Well, as data gets more dense, the access speed inherently gets much faster, assuming the RPMs stay constant. If physical size stays the same, random access can't really get too much slower. So what is it that is going to be bad about terabyte disks?

      we only have a factor of 100 left in density--then the Seagate guys are out of ideas.

      So what? All that means is that it's about tim

      • by Allen Varney ( 449382 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @01:09AM (#6508678) Homepage

        That's assuming current speeds. Well, as data gets more dense, the access speed inherently gets much faster, assuming the RPMs stay constant. If physical size stays the same, random access can't really get too much slower. So what is it that is going to be bad about terabyte disks?

        The problem, as Jim Gray outlines it in the ACMQueue article [acmqueue.org]:

        "But starting about 1989, disk densities began to double each year. Rather than going slower than Moore's Law, they grew faster. Moore's Law is something like 60 percent a year, and disk densities improved 100 percent per year.

        "Today disk-capacity growth continues at this blistering rate, maybe a little slower. But disk access, which is to say, 'Move the disk arm to the right cylinder and rotate the disk to the right block,' has improved about tenfold. The rotation speed has gone up from 3,000 to 15,000 RPM, and the access times have gone from 50 milliseconds down to 5 milliseconds. That's a factor of 10. Bandwidth has improved about 40-fold, from 1 megabyte per second to 40 megabytes per second. Access times are improving about 7 to 10 percent per year. Meanwhile, densities have been improving at 100 percent per year."

        There's a lot more about this in the article. Check it out; it's +5 Informative stuff.

    • Quoting the parent post, who was quoting Jim Gray...

      At current and near-future access speeds, searching a 20-terabyte disk might take a year.

      Today's drives run about 20 to 50 Mbyte/sec from the platter. You can get 133 Mbyte/sec from the tiny buffer, of course, but for a whole-drive search, let's assume you're going to read 20 terabytes at 30 megabytes/sec. My calculator says that's 666667 seconds, or 7.7 days. Yes, a long time to wait, but 7.7 days is a long way from "might take a year". Even if yo

  • by smokeslikeapoet ( 598750 ) <wfpearson&gmail,com> on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:34AM (#6508483) Homepage Journal
    Storage density is one thing, but storage speed is another. With 200 GB hard drives readily available, and relatively cheap, the main thing I'm itching for is increased access and transfer speeds. Not just the controller speed as most hard drives still only maintain a constant transfer speed of 33Mbps. Theoretically, a denser drive at the same rotational speed will transfer data faster than a less dense drive, but will we see a dramatic improvement in sustained transfer speeds? While this transfer speed is acceptable while watching a DivX movie, it's really a pain while ripping a DivX movie. (A movie that I shot in my backyard, and authored, and own the rights to, and am ripping for the pure exitement as I would never violate a copyright.)
  • ...engineers are working with software developers on a way to dramatically reduce power consumption by maximizing the number of 0-bits in memory.

    "We think this could be a major breakthrough for laptop users dissatisfied with battery life," comments one developer who wishes to remain anonymous. "Studies show that modern software uses an increasing number of 1-bits, a side effect of the overcomplexity of today's lax programming standards and abundance of cheap, fast CPUs and RAM."

    Sources indicate that in

    • Forget that crap. We all know that isn't practical. Just use smaller fonts. That works today.
    • ...engineers are working with software developers on a way to dramatically reduce power consumption by maximizing the number of 0-bits in memory.

      The grain of truth to this joke: There is a well-known technique that reduces the number of 1s in words transmitted on a bus by inverting words that are more than half 1 (and setting an extra bit indicating that the word has been inverted). The idea is to reduce the number of transitions on the bus lines, as a change in state is what dissipates power.
      • There was a funny story on a similar note from my hardware architecture class. The professor had been teaching about the various gates, and came to the NOT gate. The description given was "when the input voltage is OFF, the gate outputs an ON voltage". One of the students thought about this, and then asked the professor that, if this was the case, why couldn't you power a system by putting together a large quantity of NOT gates...

  • Storing bits in three dimensions? Kindof reminds me of Holographic Memory [howstuffworks.com]. Also, dual-layer DVD's to a lesser extent.

    Of course, both of these are non-magnetic. And holographic memory is still research-only, as far as I know.

    I wonder, will magnetic storage (in any number of dimensions) ever get eclipsed by non-magnetic ones like these?

    • I wonder, will magnetic storage (in any number of dimensions) ever get eclipsed by non-magnetic ones like these?

      Maybe.

      The disadvantage optical schemes have is that the size of a bit's worth of storage medium is the size of a wavelength of light. While magnetic media have limits too, the ultimate density limit for EM devices is the size of a small cluster of atoms (or even one atom) - much, much denser.

      While holographic schemes store bits in a distributed manner instead of in individual buckets, the limi
    • Download the video.

      http://www.inphase-tech.com/technology/

  • by Call Me Black Cloud ( 616282 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:43AM (#6508536)
    If they stand the 1's up, sure you can fit more because they're skinny. But 0's? They're wide...I don't see a significant amount of savings there...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:47AM (#6508548)
    So, does this mean that instead of looking like this:
    0
    1

    All of my bits will instead look like this?:
    _
    -

    I suppose you can squeeze a lot more of them together that way, but is that really much of an innovation?

    Now, if they had figured out a way to fold the suckers, I'd be impressed.
  • das shrunken (Score:5, Insightful)

    by poptones ( 653660 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @12:49AM (#6508560) Journal
    More relevant than this technology that is still many years away, I find much more interesting the part about the desktop industry moving to 2.5" drives. So in the next year or so we'll be able to buy very high density, fast drives that can fit in a pocket and already have serial interfaces! All we need are sata jacks on the front panel and the world moves one giant leap closer to true "plug-n-play" goodness. Mail order sneakernets just got even cheaper!
  • April Fool? (Score:2, Funny)

    by Stephen ( 20676 )
    "placing bits on end instead of lying them parallel on the disc surface"
    This has got to be an April Fool, hasn't it? Oh wait, it's the wrong date. But I'm sure if it was April 1st, no-one would believe it.
  • by Sean Johnson ( 66456 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @01:06AM (#6508667)
    I have seen a few posts from folks not quite understanding how the "bits-on-end" approach works. Some were speculating that it might be holographic, multiple layers, or 3D and such. It is not at all that complicated as they are making it out to be. I heard it best described from Alan Shugart who started the company called Seagate. On an episode from "The Computer Chronicles" back in 1984 he described it as standing the magnetic particles on end to fit more in a given area, which is similar to how a cord of wood could fit into a given smaller area by standing them up on end instead of laying flat. So it really is simpler than you might imagine. Of course the implementation is anything but simple. This is especially evident by the fact that this idea was known as a way to increase storage density back in 1984, when even 200 million bits per square inch was not in a consumer product yet. It was merely in labs with thin film head technology poised to become the next big thing in a short time from that year.
    By the way, you can see old episodes of "The Computer Chronicles" at the Prelinger Archives collection.
    http://www.archive.org/movies/preling er.php.
    I believe Slashdot had a story about that a while ago. Good stuff! Great info can be had through those old episodes about computer history.
  • by Bruha ( 412869 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @01:23AM (#6508743) Homepage Journal
    Okay for the last 20 years they've been working on this. WHY are they not looking into solid state storage? There are plenty of companies within 2 years will have drives that will blow away current drives in speed and capacity. One such company is using nanotech to offer 1 terabit per cm2. And it'll run at 10x the speed of current memory.

    I cant help to see how this is not wasted time trying to improve the platter drives in favor of pushing out solid state storage faster. The advantages alone overrule more development on platter systems. Imagine instead of 100mbps of bandwidth on the hard drive you would be getting 10gbps of throughtput, no moving parts and much less heat and a longer MTBF time along with size alone this would blow away the server markets..

    Who would care about the 16Gig memory limit when you have a solid state hard drive that ran faster than the memory array? Then you can just modify the software to use the Solid State Array (Think I'm going to patent this!hehe) SSA drive as memory and storage thus DB servers would have serious improvements compared to platter systems.
    • Okay for the last 20 years they've been working on this. WHY are they not looking into solid state storage?

      Because "solid state storage" to date has meant either battery-backed RAM, which is extremely expensive per gigabyte, or experimental optical or electro-optical approaches that aren't anywhere close to production.

      There are plenty of companies within 2 years will have drives that will blow away current drives in speed and capacity. One such company is using nanotech to offer 1 terabit per cm2. And i
    • by brarrr ( 99867 )
      well, this is one article about one idea. there are many more facets of magnetism research. i'm working on diluted magnetic semiconductors that put ~1ppm magnetic dopant into a semiconductor... this can conceivably allow for solid state, non-volatile, always on, (insert your term), memory. perp. recording has been around for a while, just not economically feasible, and who knows when it will be.

      there is no company who is reaching 1terabit per cm2, as there is something called the superparamagnetic limi
  • What's the potential for damage with these new drives? Don't get me wrong, hard drive space is good, but with more data being packed into smaller and smaller a space, surely any damage at all will cause more information to be lost. Raid is all good, but will these drives be durable or can I forget using my laptop in the car?

    SealBeater
  • by MickLinux ( 579158 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @01:43AM (#6508850) Journal
    I dunno why, but somehow this topic reminds me of a coversation like the following...

    See, there's a limit to how many bits you can store on a disk. I see. Because the area of the disk is limited I see. But you don't want a limit, you want more space. I want more space. But you can't have more space, because all of the bits are square they're square. and there's only so many square inches of surface. Only so much. Yes. Look at this disk. Radius 3.25" 3.25 It's a circle. It's round. Pie-R-square Pie-R-square So the area's limited. I see.

    And the bits, they're almost square, because that's the way the manufacturers' engineers like them. They like squares? Yes. I see. Well, really they're not square, they're almost square. And how's that? Well, they're square sections of a round arc. Not square? But almost square. Almost square. I see.

    So what do we do? I don't know. Well, we get a better packing fraction. Better packing fraction? Yes. That's the key. A better packing fraction. I see. And your data is round. Data is round Because the magnetic field is round. I see. And a square doesn't approximate a circle very well, does it? No. What does it better? A circle? Well, yes, but you can't do it with a circle, because circles bump each other. They bump each other? Yes, and they leave empty space between them. And we want a better packing fraction? Yes. So what do we take a cue from? I don't know. I know you don't know, but I'll tell you. We take a cue from the bee. The bee? The honeybee. He uses hexagons. Aaah. Hexagons. Yes, hexagons. They're all the future. The future? The future. The future. Yes, the future. Hexagons. Yes. That's where the money is. You're a nut.

  • What this MEANS (Score:5, Informative)

    by TwistedSpring ( 594284 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @02:12AM (#6508965) Homepage
    If you have no idea what the difference between Longitudinal Recording and Perpendicular Recording might be, and the phrase "stands the bits on end" meant absolutely nothing to you because its an utterly ridiculous way to explain it, here's the lodown. Longitudinal recording is what we use today in everything from cassette tape to hard disks. It works by magnetising tiny sections of the recording medium. You can imagine the magnetised sections as tiny bar magnets laid end-to-end. The read head detects transitions in the direction of the magnetic field.

    <- -> <-- -> <- -->

    In the above diagram we're looking down at one track on the surface of a platter. Perpendicular recording works differently. The "magnets" or bits are arranged so that the field they emit is perpendicular to the medium, like this:

    x . x . x . x .
    In the above diagram we're looking down at one track on the surface of a platter 'x' represents a field pointing away from us, '.' is one pointing towards us. This is what it looks like in cross-section (looking in from the edge of the platter):
    ^ | ^ | ^ | ^ | ^
    | v | v | v | v |


    In perpendicular recording the read head detects the actual direction of the fields emitted by these bits/magnets, rather than transitions in the field. Perpendicular recording is advantageous because it allows one to use a much smaller surface area on the medium for one bit. Imagine if you laid a line of bricks end-to-end on the ground, you could make the line shorter but taller if you stood each brick on end (so they're laid flat-to-flat), but you've not had to make the bricks any smaller in order to acheive this change in the length of your line.

    Most of the above is hopefully right. Anyway it's a better explanation than that site gave.
  • by pbox ( 146337 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @02:54AM (#6509122) Homepage Journal
    What a poorly researched article. It is way below EEtimes quality and should have never been published as it is.

    1. "As opposed to longitudinal recording, where the bits are impressed in a parallel format along the surface of a disc, perpendicular recording stands the bits on end, enabling more data storage per square inch."

    What does it stand the bits at the end? I have never seend a standing bit. Especially on the end of it. Now c'mon, it could have been described a little more "technically". This is not USA Today.

    And "impressed in parellel format" is such a crap of a phrase. It is not impressed, nothing touches, no impression, it is MAGNETIC, god damn!

    2. "Apple Computer Inc.'s new G5 computers are all SATA-based while Intel systems will by the end of this year be based on the new interface."

    Now this is utter turd. Before even G5 was announced, and probably before Jobs had the brainfart to invent them, some of the high-end PC motherboard manufacturers were already churning out SATA equipped motherboards. It was in the Intel development road map for several years now. I remember reading about it on Tom's 2 years ago.

    Mr. Bolaji Ojo (EBN), please do your homework. Do not just blair (as in Jayson) out an article. You do wipe your ass after takin a sh*t, don't you? I am just asking that you would apply the same attitude toward writing articles. Thank you for your future cooperation.
  • by ControlFreal ( 661231 ) <niek AT bergboer DOT net> on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @07:01AM (#6509875) Journal

    Although the solution proposed in the article would increase storage capacity by, say, a factor 2 or 4, it still is a temporary solution that does not solve the fundamental problem at hand.

    The fundamental problem is the superparamagnetic limit: if you make a magnetic domain (a bit) smaller than a certain size, it becomes thermodynamically unstable. In English, this means that very small bits loose their value after a while. It also means that for the time being, we'll have to use tricks to pack the bits closer together while keeping them large enough to be stable.

    It should be noted that perpendicular recording is not the only effort to achieve higher recording densities in the looming shadow of the superparamagnetic limit. Indeed, harddrive manufacturers have seen this problem coming for a number of years now, and have had meeting to discuss possible solutions [cnn.com].

    On a brighter note, there seems to be progress in circumventing the superparamagnetic limit: very recent research [nih.gov] show promising results for the future.

For God's sake, stop researching for a while and begin to think!

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