Power Outages Strike East Coast 1697
fordp writes "CNN, CNBC and others are reporting that major power outages are happening just after 4:00PM EDT in New York, New Jersey, Detroit, Ottawa and Toronto, Toledo." There are reports of a Con Edison transformer on fire on 14th Street in NYC, and lots of people stuck in trains and elevators. CNN is reporting that it is, according to power officials, most likely not related to terrorism, because you know you were wondering. The Niagra Mohawk power grid is overloaded, which feeds electricity throughout the northeast U.S. and into Canada. Update: 08/14 21:06 GMT by P : The mayor said there was no fire, that it was black smoke brought on by an automatic shutdown because of the power grid failure.
Timing is everything... (Score:4, Interesting)
Manhattan (Score:5, Interesting)
According to the radio, the 14th street power station is burning. Of course, it also is talking about blackouts from Cleveland to Toronto. With no power, my poor tropical fish have less than a few hours to live, and I already hear a crowd in the street screaming, but it's mostly good natured right now.
I'm sorry, this seems like sabotage. I've got 100 gallons of fresh water, and a sword.
And I'm posting on slashdot.
Oh well. I guess I just wanted to say hello. =p
Sun Spots could be partly to blame? (Score:5, Interesting)
Weird day. (Score:5, Interesting)
CNN is reporting... (Score:5, Interesting)
So this one isn't terrorism (so they say), but I'm sure terrorists will be delighted to know that they can throw five major cities into utter chaos by taking out one substation and getting an assist from the domino effect.
~Philly
here in Niagara Falls, Ontario. Canada (Score:2, Interesting)
Kewl.
terror (Score:3, Interesting)
In related news, the door of the loo at SaintJohns Library being cracky is not a case of terrorism (we know what you we're thinking)
Seriously folks... this is the FUD M.Moore is talking about. Even if one is 100% sure no terrorism is involved, the media can't resist mentioning it, thus keeping the public constant aware of the danger of terrorism.
Great.... (Score:2, Interesting)
the news can see how fragile the power grid
around here really is.
Prisoners? (Score:1, Interesting)
Power outage
Re:Hartford seems fine (Score:3, Interesting)
Slashdotted already (Score:4, Interesting)
Supposedly the electric company that started it all.
Not Just "Predictable" -- PREDICTED. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm typing from 30 miles southwest of Boston. I've heard reports that Boston is affected; but here in the suburbs, we're not having any problems.
It's worth noting that, no matter what caused the initial problem: The results we're seeing are exactly what happens when the populace fails to concern itself with potential problems. We Americans, even today, suffer from a serious case of "It'll-never-happen-to-me." Experts have warned for years that our power grids had dangerous "pressure points," where small problems could cause massive failures.
Unfortunately, when we hear the phrase "potential problem," we hear the first word and never bother to listen to what follows. "If it's not a sure bet, why worry about it?" Well...here's why.
crib
Infrastructure maintenance vs. short term profits (Score:2, Interesting)
I have EE friends who have been predicting a failure like this because the power companies are competing with each other not to maintain the infrastructure.
Internet robust? (Score:2, Interesting)
Hold your breath! (Score:4, Interesting)
Seriously, major failures of interconnected electric distribution systems are usually very complex events and it takes a long time to track down the root causes.
sPh
Re:Manhattan (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, the going radio theory is that there is a problem near the Niagra New York/Canada border. The Pentagon is saying that there is no indication of terrorism. That being said, I wish most cellular was working, so I could get in touch with my wife.
Brilliant performance awards go to:
NYPD, already directing traffic brilliantly.
FDNY, ditto.
Verizon, still got full phone, and internet. Considering New York is right in the center of this blackout, seriously. God damn, good show, Verizon.
Nextel, I still have full service.
MTA, every bus is rolling.
Parks, amazingly, this full power outage has not affected the base functionality of any park, citywide.
Boos: Cingular. No service.
I've got 77% battery left. I'll post again, when I'm bored. =)
Re:Baby Making Time (Score:4, Interesting)
This Salon article [salon.com] debunks that myth that started with a blackout in New York in 1965 (see page 3 [salon.com]).
See also the Snopes article on the 1965 NYC blackout [snopes.com].
Shutting down nuclear power plants? (Score:3, Interesting)
FOX News (Score:2, Interesting)
Good thing we are getting our info from CNN
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
American priorities (Score:3, Interesting)
Who needs terrorists ... we have management! (Score:2, Interesting)
Isn't it great how billions will be lost but the responsible, well paid, people will be nowhere to be found.
Isn't it funny why we never question leadership?
Re:Manhattan (Score:5, Interesting)
Why is this rated Funny?? I suggested exactly this to a friend who has a large tank and was expressing concerns about power failures just a few weeks ago. She was mostly concerned about the filter shutting down long enough to kill the bacterial from lack of water flow (I think her estimate of how long this would take was very conserative, but the concern about the issue was real, and it certainly can happen, it's just an issue of how long an outage is required). Contrasted to other expenses involved in a large tank, a UPS is an extremely reasonable investment.
Baby Boom waiting to happen (Score:2, Interesting)
~Laserone
http://www.LaserBlog.com
Re:Blaster (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:American priorities (Score:3, Interesting)
Netsplit? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:And California? (Score:4, Interesting)
Not to defend the GOP, though. The "deregulation" (it wasn't, really. There was all sorts of bizarre price controls. Calling it deregulation was a propaganda myth.) was, in the end, a completely bipartisan clusterfook. But anyone using it to dump on one side or the other is just being pig ignorant and mentally ill.
I could care less (Score:2, Interesting)
Blame Microsoft! (Score:3, Interesting)
LBL data shows the blackout (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:UPS advice (Score:3, Interesting)
Whoever setup the machines in the lab plugged the db server into a UPS, but not the raid array
Re:Con Edison transformer NOT on fire (Score:1, Interesting)
Wouldn't that explain the 'black smoke'
Move along folks. The smoke is a non-story.
Re:Manhattan (Score:2, Interesting)
The power is clean and beautiful on a scope, and it keeps my computers happy.
I'm not getting paid - just the words of a very satisifed customer (who's looking at an APC array for the new house...)
Re:Who knew... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Air conditioners? (Score:2, Interesting)
great article in Wired about New York 2.0 [wired.com]
Temperature graphs from Above.net (Score:1, Interesting)
Anyone using alternative power? (Score:2, Interesting)
The Enron connection (Score:5, Interesting)
There is also the Enron factor. A couple of years back when Cheney gave Enron the green light to manipulate the California energy market California was making deals to buy any capacity it could
During the period the market was being manipulated the cover story was that it was California's fault for not allowing new plants to be built. Power plants have a major lead time so the only way to get generator sets for new power plants to be built in the West was for NYC to give up the generator sets for a bunch of gas turnbine systems planned to be deployed in the East.
Thank Bush, Cheney and their big friend 'Kenny boy' Lay for putting the interests of Enron before the national interest. First they screwed California and now NYC may well be getting hit by the unexpected results.
First 90+ degree day in these parts (Score:3, Interesting)
Now for a quick opinion on air conditioning. Is it just me, or have people confused refrigeration with air conditioning? Crikey. I walk into some large supermarkets, stores, restaurants, etc., and I have to watch my appendages for frostbite. Where I work, the hotter it is outside, the colder it is inside. Some staff have resorted to wearing sweaters, sweatshirts, and run space heaters!
It's just my opinion, but if you can't live at least around 72 degrees (and is a dry, conditioned 75 that bad?), then you should consider a move beyond the polar circles for the summer.
Type 2 security failure at JFK airport (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Domino effect (Score:5, Interesting)
I've read that the stability of large power grids is still a poorly understood problem. Normally they are reliable, but what happens when they are already running close to the limit of safe operation and a major generating facility goes off line?
Re:outages like this (Score:4, Interesting)
Smaller generators are less efficent than larger ones. Solar power and wind power only works when you've got solar power and wind power. Works fine for certain parts of the US, but works pretty crappily in the eastern seaboard. Plus, it multiplies the maintenence costs to have a lot of different generators.
Lately, I've become more pro-nuclear. And that's the sort of thing where, despite the fact that it's been incredibly safe so far, you still want it out where people are more sparsely populated, just in case. Solar power is a waste of space and only works in some parts of the world, wind power kills the little birdies in large numbers, hydrothermal power destroys scenic river views... Hydrogen is a code word for "we'll build lots of nuclear plants in Mexico or Canada or maybe even Japan, electrolyze the seawater, and then ship it to the US". Eventually the non-whacko environmentalists are going to realize that there's three options, and the one that's unarguably the easiest and most palatable is nuclear power. (the other two are to bring it all down and space-based solar power)
The only thing that would alleviate this is to maintain a higher potential power surplus. This means either build more generators, in general, or use less power. The problem is that it's very hard to use less power and make it stick, except by collapsing back to anarchy. About the only lasting change in california from the blackouts is that everybody keeps the timers to turn off lights, the energy-saving florescent bulbs, etc. A lot of the other stuff they cooked up for conservation is quickly passing from people's thinking.
Sorry I'm missing this... (Score:5, Interesting)
I was five years old for the first one and scared out of my wits when the lights went out. It was an early evening in November, around 5:30 PM, and I was sitting on the kitchen floor, watching TV (the Winchell-Mahoney hour). Lights, television, even the streetlamps outside went out. My first thought: "Mommmmmmmmm!!!!!".
We ended up walking over to my aunt's house a couple of blocks away and eating the cake that my mother had baked that day. That was our dinner. Blackout cake. She never made it again after that, but I remember with all the flickering candles it seemed like someone's birthday.
My father got stuck on the subway for 36 hours, though. Bummer for him.
When the '77 blackout hit, I was living with my father on the 15th floor of a building on East 96th St. I'd just gotten home from my summer job and turned on the radio. The DJ was complaining about the turntables running too fast (overcompensating for low voltage?). Looking out my bedroom window, I saw the blackout roll uptown: the Empire State Building went out first, then the rest of Midtown, the Upper East Side, and then us. It was a hot, humid night and you could see the occasional flash of heat lightning.
I checked on my neighbors, an elderly couple, before heading down to the street, where I bartered a couple of cold beers for a handful of candles. People were bewildered, wondering if the Indian Point nuclear plant had blown, or if the Rooskies were attacking. It took about an hour for the looting to start north of us and for most of the night there was an endless parade of NYPD patrol cars headed uptown, four or five cops in each, all in full riot gear.
I don't want to downplay the millions of dollars of damage that happened that night, but my neighborhood was pretty peaceful. It was like an instant block party, people sharing food and beer and the occasional joint, oldtimers (I guess that's me now) talking about the '65 Blackout (which, like today, started at the Mohawk grid and covered roughly the same area).
Fifteen flights up was nothing for me back then; I ran track in high school.
A couple of years ago my neighborhood in Boston lost power for 36 hours. Nothing big, maybe 25,000 households, but I was bereft. No cable, no Internet, just a battery-operated radio and, of course, candles. Off the grid.
But it was educational. I never realized how dependent I was on technology and the network, how much of my time is spent in front of the silicon devils (TV and computer). Thirty hours with nothing but books and an acoustic guitar for entertainment. When the power came on, the first thing I did was fire up a web browser. It was like a refreshingly cool shower of meaningless information after having to sit and stew with my thoughts.
Shit. I think I'll go to the basement and throw the main breaker. Just for old time's sake.
k.
Re:BAH! :) (Score:2, Interesting)
Are you really that Stupid, or are you just another Republican shirker? I bet you are the latter.
FACT: The power plants existed, ENRON and other electricity brokers flat out refused to allow those plants in California to be started, even when the rolling blackouts became a daily event throughout the Bay Area and Southern CA. Even when The Governor of California went to ask the White House to intervene, Bush/Cheney backed ENRON, even though all the evidence pointed to the fact that the supply was being heavily manipulated. This was PROVEN when ENRON finally collapsed under the weight of its own debt.
FACT: ENRON manipulated the market, with falsified transfers of power out of the State, then back into the state, and totally falsifying their records, DELIBERATLY to reflect transactions, then charging the State for all the transactions involved at a cost approximatly 4000 times the original contract cost. This cost the State nearly 40 BILLION dollars, and the odd thing, thats almost exactly the same amount of money California is in the hole for, and the GOP is using as a lame excuse for a recall. Pete Wilson, a former GOP Governor is heading the campaign to put Arnold in the Governors office in Sacremento. He is also the man who pushed for the State Electricity utilities to be "deregulated", (that means sold off to the highest bidder) The only single person that should take the blame is Wison, not Davis. Davis was not even in public office when the Utility was sold to ENRON.Get your facts right man, or just quit lying about things.
Re:The Enron connection (Score:3, Interesting)
Does that pretty much sum it up?
Great. Please provide a source.
Gift. (Score:2, Interesting)
Enjoy!
Re:On the other hand... (Score:3, Interesting)
The 2nd Amendment was made for times like this
The USA is a funny funny place! People seem to be worried about all sorts of crimes being comitted now that there are no lights. Riots, Murders, Home Invasions...possibly even an Army of Darkness attacking (Great Movie!).
Why are you so worried? You seem to be more afraid of each other, then other things!
Auckland CBD (New Zealand) was without power for several weeks. Us in Oz thought it was a bit of a joke. But people just went home. No big deal. I've been in major blackouts (obviously not as major as what just happened in the USA), but so far have never worried about being attacked. Go home early. See some stars. Snuggle. Have fun.
Is the veil of civilization so thin in the USA that simple darkness will create the downfall of mankind? In the past people thought it would take a nuclear war to break up civilisation. Now it seems turning out the lights will do it.
My other question is...isn't the 2nd Amendment about creating a mulitia to defend your country...not about defending your house? And is it the gun culture of the USA that brings about this fear?
Here is a link to the [findlaw.com]
second amendment text
Re:Air conditioners? (Score:2, Interesting)
i'm not going to read every comment since it is not that much interesting to see thee great #1 masters of the world falling into darkness because of failing powerplants
lots of jokes can be make, but the point is that everyone, including big money eating corps SHOULD USE LESS ENERGY. AND ALSO LESS WATER.
err, i'm getting a littla carried away. Talking about wired, a while back they published a great article [wired.com] [wired.com] about the energy grid.
Re:inrush current? (Score:1, Interesting)
The inrush current causes a voltage drop on a system. V=I*R If I goes up, then so does the voltage drop. That is not only basic electronics, that is basic math.
Re:Great Blackout of 2003 Caused by MSBlast Worm? (Score:2, Interesting)
The gist of the discussion came from that 3 weeks ago Power Authorities met and acknowledged that there was a security threat from their systems connected to the net. During that meeting, they set up some new guidelines to regulate the software that controls the power grids to make them more secure, and to take them off the internet. He said, however, those new regulations had not taken affect yet.
Now this is a far stretch, and I think they even acknowledged this, but nevertheless the topic was discussed.
Another possibility they said that could also of happened, instead of computer hacking, radio hacking. The power control centers are connected by radio, and it wouldn't be hard to override those signals.
Interesting thoughts, but I still doubt these possibilities could ever happen.
"Hack the Planet!"
It's No joke (Score:2, Interesting)
To answer your questions (Score:2, Interesting)
2 - "Gun Culture".. bah... that is just a typical response from outsiders that don't truly understand how this country works and the freedoms that some of us strive to protect. Its not a "culture" as you put it. Regardless of what admendment we speak of.
Re:The Enron connection (Score:5, Interesting)
The California energy crisis was caused by legislation that Republican Governor Pete Wilson promoted and signed.
In the case of the manipulation of the energy market by Enron and others it is a matter of record that there was a conspiracy. It is also a matter of record that the conspirators were the largest contributors to the Bush campaign. If you want to dispute these facts try Google, but I doubt you will even find NewsMax or Faux news trying to deny them.
So far right wing conspiracies involving Bush, Cheney, Tom Delay and other Republicans have prevented the votes being counted in the presidential election, they have helped Enron and others commit a major fraud against the people of California. Oh and only a few years after impeaching a Democratic President for lying about fucking an intern they are claimint that it is perfectly OK for a President to lie to the US people about the reasons for a war.
I don't know if that meets your definition of 'vast right-wing conspiracy', but it certainly there are certainly conspiracies and the majority seem to be perpetrated by a tiny number of senior Republicans.
Re:To answer your questions (Score:3, Interesting)
2 - Yes, its true that outsiders of the USA find it hard to understand why Americans are often so big on guns. "Culture" are socially transmitted partterns of behaviour. American society is big on guns. So it is a gun culture. I'm not saying thats a bad thing, or not thought out, or that it has no reason or rationality behind it. But it is part of your culture. Perhaps instead of condemning outsiders who ask, you could educate them.
In Australia we have the "Tall Poppy Syndrome". Outsiders often find this difficult to understand. If you ask me what it is...I have no probs telling you what it is, and why we do it. I wouldn't attack you for asking. It is a big part of our culture and national identity.
(BTW..its cutting down anyone who's head sticks up too far. We have legit reasons it...at times.)
What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" do you not understand
I'm not attacking your right to bear arms. I was asking about why that right was given.
no big deal.
Footage i want to see (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:To answer your questions (Score:5, Interesting)
Okay...I'm curious. Why would cut down anyone "who's head stick up too
good question!
Rosey Golds, a social commentator for ABC radio (Australian Broadcasting Commission) says:
"The tall poppy syndrome expressed our great reluctance to defer to authority figures (and thus establish a new class system) and our abhorrence towards a society predicated on the worship of money. We mocked the desire to impress. There was a great Australian proverb used to describe the wealthy graziers who came down from the country on holiday breaks flaunting their Akubras - the wider the brim the smaller the property "
We do it because of our background. We are by nature very cynical of authority figures. Many friends of mine in the USA think they are cynical of their political figures...but they haven't seen Australian cynicism. We often give our pollies no respect at all.
A certain amount if cynicism is good. But not too much. Another advantage of our "tall poppy syndrome" is that we treat people based on their substance...IE who they are...not how big a car they drive, what title they have, or other such social standings. In social interaction, we very rarely introduce ourselves with titles (IE Doctor, Professor, Coach, Reverend etc etc). Nor do use those titles (An exeption would be a doctor of medicine, but we would only call them doctor whilst at the hospital. At the pub we would call them Bruce). I was amazed once when visiting the states with my parents (My mum is a General Practicioner...ie a Doc). When shoping in a department store, people would call us "Sir" or "Maam" (Which is weird for us!). But when they saw Mum's credit card with "Dr" on their...we all of a sudden would get red carpet treament. Sales assistants would be there ready to help, calling her "Doctor". It was very strange, unheard of to get better treament because of your profession in Australia. When Dad visits the USA (or has colleauges visit him), every American calls him "Doctor" (He's got a PHD). I've never seen it happen here.
With all cultural things, there are often reasons why things happen that way...but as always too much can be very bad.
Sites you may find interesting is
this one [convictcreations.com]. I found it using google, so haven't read it before (and thus may not agee exactly with what it says).
Mike
I've lived in Australia most my life, but have spent several years living in the USA and UK
Re:Off the Grid - Link (Score:2, Interesting)
Here's a link to guidelines [lochsadesign.com] to living off the grid. The most notable quote:
The real NYC-killer would be water outage. (Score:1, Interesting)
Currently, there are two water tunnels bringing water into NYC. They are both extremely old, their physical conditions are unknown, and their combined capacity is just enough to meet the city's current needs. They cannot shut one down to inspect/refurbish it. If anything happened to them, Manhattan would probably be unable to support its population due to sanitation concerns.
They are now constructing a third water tunnel, due to be completed in 2020, that will enable them to shut down and refurbish the other two tunnels one at a time. Until then, someone determined to really screw New York's pooch could fuck with either or both of the existing tunnels and essentially put New York out of business for much longer than any blackout.
It's Toronto, it's dark, and cool (Score:2, Interesting)
online - almost 1am Eastern Daylight Savings time and total blackout... gotta be something to say on that.
Re:Almost (Score:2, Interesting)
If we continue to spin the turbines and connected generator with no load, we risk overspeeding them and blowing them apart- so automatic safety systems would often kill the plant in seconds, before operators had a chance to act.
Moreover, we can't go from a 1207 MW load to a 40MW load (what we use in house) instantly- properly ramping down involves changing the chemistry (preferably), or inserting the control rods part way. (We don't like to have these anywhere but all the way in, or all the way out).
Both of those transients take some time (hours) to do in an orderly fashion, and the equipment will be damaged far sooner than that if we stay connected during a large power drop.
In order to give you and idea of how much energy is in the system, and why it needs to be dealt with quickly, consider this: we throw away 2/3 of our thermal energy, turning only about 1/3 of that into electricity. The energy we throw away is enough to raise the temperature of 400 000 gallons per minute of seawater 34 degrees F. (Instead of cooling towers, we use the ocean. Incidentally, cooling towers can be found at plants other than nuke plants.)
Please also click on my slashdot profile and read my other posts.
In the colo at 118th Ave... Three cheers! (Score:3, Interesting)
First reaction: I see happy LEDs, whew.
Second Reaction: when the overhead lights came back on seconds later, you see 10 techs looking at their hands as if the ethernet cables they plugged in caused the problem! Funny.
This is the most comfortable place in Manhattan right now. Sleeping here on Sun cartons and bubble wrap in the AC due to zero transport home to CT.
Verio's got all generators working, and should weather this. For this I am eternally grateful. Let's take a moment to praise the folks who plan for this kind of problem in our data centers!
guess whats on TV (Score:2, Interesting)
Exactly what you said would not be:
"People are buying food and water for strangers when the shop keepers aren't just giving it away for free. People are taking in their friends and coworkers and giving them a place to stay for the night if they can't get home. People are sharing their cell phones so strangers can call home and let their families know they are alright. I saw a man walking with candles to the houses of older members of his church to make sure they were alright and had what they needed to make it through the night. What is going on right now is the true American spirit and it crosses all racial, social and economic lines."
Re:On the other hand... (Score:3, Interesting)
Look at us (France), we had democracy about the same time as you did, but we've had coups, wars, revolutions, and our own current regime (called the Fifth Republic, and you guys are still on your first) is little over forty years old (old Europe, HA!).
It's pretty obvious you have the Second Amendment to thank for that. Anyone staging a coup would be extremely foolish, because anyone knows that even though most people don't have guns because they're in a "well-regulated militia" they would appear pretty soon and swarm over D.C.
Of course people shoot each other for wholly different reasons than the defense of democracy, but the guys who wrote the Constitution weren't stupid. 18th century or 21st century, if you give everyone guns, they will use them to shoot each other -- but they chose to pay that price for the durability of their system.
I'm not defending the Second Amendment, this is an extremely high price to pay and one has to wonder if in a modern state it really should be paid anymore, but I don't see that issue brought up in many 2nd Am debates, so I thought I'd share it.
Re:CNN is reporting... (Score:3, Interesting)
BTW - I have a theory why the terrorists are not performing any major attacks. GWB is doing more damage to the US than they possibly could do, so they just give him little pokes to keep him angry, and laugh while he make the world hate him, and while he makes the US a new fascist state. That in turn will marginalize the US over the years..
Re:On the other hand... (Score:2, Interesting)
banned guns to his citizens, so they couldnt fight back when he went on his reign of terror.
Good idea there junior.
And when the founding fathers said its time to trash a cumbersom gov and rebuild it back with the const. in mind, that would never happen w/out guns.