Hotel Being Sued for Using the Dewey Decimal System

cbull writes "Did you know the Dewey Decimal System isn't in the public domain? The rights are owned by the Online Computer Library Center. They are suing the Library Hotel in New York for trademark infringement. In addition, according to the article, libraries pay at least $500/year to use the system."

Trademarked?

[PipianJ]

How can you trademark the Dewey Decimal System? Sounds more like a patentable system to me... So how did it get filed under the trademark category? (Nice to know they've registered it under the one class of IP which never expires as long as you pay. I mean, look, it says it was created in 1873!)

Question

[Hinkkanen]

Does this mean that I'll have to pay if organise my book collection according to Dewey system?

LoC Classification

[EngrBohn]

They really should use The Library of Congress' Classification [loc.gov] -- it's currently in use by (most?) libraries, and no one owns a trademark on it!

How is this even possible?

[tbase]

According to this page, Melvil Dewey (1851-1931) anonymously published the system in 1876.

On the other hand, it seems that the Online Compyter Library Center does do quite a bit of work to maintain the system, which should entitle them to some rights - but it sure seems that if some guy published something anonymously in 1876, he probably intended it to be in the public domain. Seems to me, if the hotel was based on the original system, and not the one improved by subsequent owners, he should be ok - especially if they referred to it as the "Melvil Dewey System" or something.

I had no idea it was owned - how come they aren't going after the elementary schools that teach the system? Or is that included in their library's license? And how come we're teaching a proprietary, trademarked system? Next thing you know, they'll be teaching our kids Windows!!!

Bullshit

[rde]

"A person who came to their Web site and looked at the way (the hotel) is promoted and marketed would think they were passing themselves off as connected with the owner of the Dewey Decimal Classification system."

Yeah, right. If I was particularly jetlagged, drunk or whatever, I might pop up to the counter and ask to speak to Melvil Dewey. But I'm sure I'm not alone in that I never even considered that a numeric system invented in the next-to-previous century would still be owned today, much less that anyone who used it would be representative of that owner.

It's lucky that I'm ambivalent about my primary school; when I was there, I organised the books according to the Dewey system. If I were at all bitter, I'd rat them out, and not just becuase the 098 section was completely empty.

Oh, and here's something funny. In my research for this comment, I typed 'dewey 098' into google to see if it still meant what I thought it did.
098 is for forbidden books. Now that you know that google for 'dewey 098' while you're feeling lucky.

Created in 1873?

[MunchMunch]

Now hold on--The article itself states that "Melvil Dewey created the most widely used library classification system in 1873."

Anything from before the 1920s should be in the public domain, even if nothing after that will ever go into the public domain. I mean, was there indeed some perpetual copyright clause slipped into some bill or another? How could anybody otherwise still own the rights to this?

How is this NOT public domain?

[JayBlalock]

I'm not being some sort of commu-terrorist, I'm trying to figure this out. The Dewey system was invented in the 1870s. It's something around 130 years old. How can it POSSIBLY still have its rights tied up? I thought until around 1930 our Congress was still rational enough to see that having things going to the Public Domain was a good thing.

Re:whichever it is, it should have expired

[dpbsmith]

I had the same reaction.

If the Dewey Decimal system is copyrighted, the copyright should have expired.

If it's patented, it should have expired.

And if it's trademarked, there shouldn't be any problem, since they don't call themselves the "Dewey Decimal Hotel."

Re:This could be good

[ahfoo]

No doubt. The DDC is such a pain in the ass when you're used to LOC. I am also suprised to find tht it's still being licensed. I thought the only people still using it were in countries that didn't want to submit to LOC guidelines because their own copyright laws were uhm, different.
I know that's the case here in Taiwan. I was shocked to find major research universities using DDC and then when I began working with a publisher I learned that it had a lot to do with copyright and the LOC. In fact, I taught classes on using the LOC at one point for students preparing to go overseas.
But personally I find the DDC obnoxious and far more of an obstacle to research than a helpful classification system.

Re:Trademarked?

[BabyDave]

They can (and presumably have) trademarked the name "Dewey Decimal" as relating to classification systems. As for the system itself, I don't think trademarking or patenting apply (at least not now, as the patent would long since have expired). I'd presume that the particular system would be copyrighted, in that you can't use that system or one sufficiently similar to it without permission.

Of course, if it were patented, we'd all be protesting about yet another damn silly patent - categorising books based on their subjects and then giving each subject a number, yeah that's really non-obvious.

To sue or not to sue

[maizena]

I cannot understand why american companies are in this suing fury about copyright/trademark infringement.

It is really sad to see the world of business going this way.

They should try to look at it from a new angle and see the benefits they could have in a joint venture or by adopting a new business model.

How did they pick the damages???

[openbear]

How on Earth did they pick the damages amount for this case?

From the CNN [cnn.com] story ...

"The complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Columbus seeks triple the hotel's profits since its opening or triple the organization's damages, whichever is greater, from the hotel's owner."

"Dreitler said Saturday he and his client do not yet know the size of the hotel's profits. The center, based in Dublin, is willing to settle with the hotel's owners, he said."
If this does not scream frivolous lawsuit (or lottery ticket lawsuit) then I don't know what does. I thought if you were suing someone for "damages" that you had pick an amount, not just claim "triple whatever is going to get me the most money".

This is more proof that the legal system in the US is severely broken and abused.

Oh good grief

[SolemnDragon]

I spent three years working in a library and learning the dewey decimal system. Three guesses how my home media are organised. (No, not by Soviet Russia or by Natalie Portman, who let you guys in here, anyway?) By dewey decimal, of course. And now i have to think about how much i really want to keep this system... i don't hold with the idea of having to license something so overwhelmingly widely used. (and i wasn't aware that our library paid a license fee. (In fact, i don't remember that in our expenses at all, which makes me wonder whether it fell under 'miscellaneous,' or whether our relatively-new library simply failed to bother...) either way, i feel that the system should be free (as in beer) because it's... a filing system used primarily by nonprofit entities, and of course that's only my fond wish, but i'm hoping that the next system will be free. Otherwise- Hold on while i go patent the alphabet as a filing system. And copyright it. Every keyboard company will be paying me money... heh heh heh....

oke. Back to subject. This leads me to the next question. How much sense does it make to make libraries pay for one more thing? And will the next step be to raise this license fee? Most libraries are struggling along as it is, so i hope not. There isn't enough storage and there isn't enough funding, and it drives me crazy to see book sales held sometimes, in those cases where it's just because there's no way to maintain the full shelves.

Let me rephrase this. Most libraries are non-profit entities. Five bucks a year isn't a lot of money, but it's money being charged for a standard system that would take a lot of time and effort to shift away from. Maybe derivative works should be allowed; if a hotel is using it for anything other than books, maybe it should be hailed as an innovative way to make people more aware of the system itself. But i'm willing to accept that the system 'owners' may have the legal right to collect... it's the obsessive nature of this particular instance that bothers me. *shrug* i could be way off-base.

So... the most important point here, i think, is: What's a better way? And how can we make it free to libraries and other non-profits?

This is absurd.

[An Onerous Coward]

Even if the complaint was reasonable, the damages being sought are beyond absurd. Triple the profits the hotel has made since it opened? First, I can't imagine how the OCLC was damaged beyond the loss of revenue they would have gotten from a license. Second, I can't imagine that every cent of profit the hotel made over the last three years was a direct result of their use of the Dewey Decimal system. Perhaps some of it came from, I dunno, being conveniently placed in the middle of New York?

It would only make sense that they should have to prove that every customer who stayed there wouldn't have were it not for their use of the Dewey Decimal system.

It sounds like this non-profit actually serves a useful purpose, but I really hope that if this goes to court, their damages get capped at around $4500 (triple the money the hotel saved by not buying a license).

Sue'ing Crazy

[nite87]

This is just another example of people with money sue'ing other people for money. Whats next, the RAII sueing a 12 year old girl....oh, wait.

Re:This could be good

[Jeremy Erwin]

Libraries are already strapped for cash--until an automated book retrieval system is developed, then the only way to fully implement your system would be to insert three copies into the stacks.

Sometimes, libraries do place faux books on the shelf with instructions to the browser to "also consult this CDROM" but stacks loaded with these faux books would not be particularly easy to browse.

My ideal library would let browsers borrow hand held electronic catalogues-- so that flashes of insight wouldn't need to be followed by a long trek back to the catalogs in the lobby.

Re:This could be good

[ahfoo]

It's simple really. You're not supposed to just make up LOC numbers for you local archive out of thin air. If you've got a new title, you have to submit your title to the LOC. But if your book is largely a collection of "borrowed" material being reprinted without authorization, that's obviously not going to be your first choice.
Things really have changed with the IP nazis on everybody's ass these days, but once upon a time there was a large market in reprinting expensive foreign titles and even making custom bound compilations. See the problem? Where are you going to file that?

Re:This could be good

[orthogonal]

The ideal system would be a free-text search of all the books in the catalogue.

You make a very good point that a hierarchical system isn't suitable for cataloging. I have the same problem with my more than 6000 (all legally acquired) MP3s: Artists span Genres, Albums contain works by more than one Composer, Artists may appear in more than one Group/Band/Orchestra, etc.

But free-text search isn't a great solution; we've all seen that with Google: I can find web pages about Apple MacIntosh and I can find pages about growing Apple MacIntoshes, but it's hard to separate the pages about computers from those about cookery.

In these cases, an abstract is more useful than a full-text search.

Re:Question

[Nevo]

Only if you call it a Dewey Decimal System organization, apparently. If you call it the Hinkkanen System, you're fine. :)

Re:This could be good

[TheLink]

Yah. But if you are a libary and your users prefer google, just put info on all your books on a webserver and let google do all that rocket science.

You can still keep the old systems.
And you can extend it.

Re:Out of business

[King_TJ]

I think the main point of this whole discussion is to shock the majority of us into the realization that the "Dewey Decimal System" is, in fact, trademarked and NOT just a public domain concept for sorting of books.

Quite frankly, I'm still a little shocked by this fact itself. Perhaps I shouldn't be, but I never heard of libraries actually paying yearly fees for the rights to use it, until now.

Somehow, it just rings hollow - like someone telling me I'm not allowed to express computer notation in hexidecimal (or even announce publically that I'm offering a "decimal to hexidecimal conversion calculator" on my web site) without paying someone for the privilege.

I never particularly cared for the Dewey Decimal System to begin with. I just assumed it was a public domain method developed by and for use by public libraries - and was used simply because it was an (inter?)national standard. I certainly don't see why it's worth paying licensing fees for it! If I had a library, I'd dump it in a heartbeat.

Re:This could be good

[Tablizer]

I always though that simple sets would be the way to go. You create categories (as needed), and then assign books to as many or as few categories as are needed. A variation of this is weighted sets, where "membership" has a weighting factor between 0 and 1.

I have a few more details on these at:
[geocities.com]
http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/sets1.htm

I've stayed there -- its a nice place

[leko]

Its a cute hotel. My room was full of cool technology related books.

There appeared to be somesort of network connectivity in the rooms, but of course I forgot my laptop...

Re:This could be good

[Scooter]

I couldn't agree more - I mean come on guys - you can't copyright/patent counting. I don't claim to be an expert on the DD indexing "system" but I just read the "introduction" pdf and it seems to me to be a simple hierachical identifier, a lot like er.. IP addressing... And in what way is it "decimal" anyway? because it has "."'s between the numbers?!? Give it up guys. Here's Scooters semi-colon numbering system: you define a whole bunch of top level categories, and then some sub categories, and then some sub-sub-categories, and when you get bored of adding tiers, number the books. Write them down as a;b;c;d;....n. Great - now if any of you tea leafs start numbering things like that - I'll see you in court! :P

I mean in this day and age surely some sort of tree structure would be better (and be easier to manipulate by machines). Each book has n number of attributes where n is bigger than 0. You can go on adding nodes of type attribute until the book is described uniqely. Or dammit - just index them by the ISBN and chuck in a whole bunch of keywords to search by..

In other news, the estate of one Pythagoras is suing everyone for making the square of the hypotenuse on their triangles equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides - the thieving swines! Pop-Idol on BBC2 next, after the weather.