Sony Music Testing New Copy Protection

RandyOo writes "According to this Reuters article, Sony Music is about to start testing a new type of 'copy protection' in Germany. It looks like they'll be releasing multi-sessioned discs with normal audio in the first session, and compressed, DRM'ed music files in the second session, as well added 'extras', including access to exclusive online content. The article explains that the disc's audio can still be copied, and there's a hilarious quote at the end by a BMG spokesman: "All copy-protections can be hacked, but if (we) give people what they are asking for in terms of value, they won't go out and steal it. It's called trusting the consumer." "

Hilarious?

[woozlewuzzle]

Why is that hilarious? Isn't that what you proponents of file-sharing and digital music have been clamoring for? to be trusted not to steal?

Hilarious quote?

[KDan]

Maybe I lack a sense of humour, but isn't that quote pretty sensible rather than 'hilarious'? Sure, they're not actually giving a lot of people what they want, but the quote itself is not at fault, is it?

Daniel

how can they ever stop it?

[freedommatters]

how can they ever stop people copying music? even if , at the worst case, it has to be take out as an analogue signal and re-digitised, who really cares? the people making millions (billions?) selling fake cds are going to invest in the equipment to do it. it's these people - largely mafia types - the industry should be worried about (something like 1 in 3 cds is fake) rather than a student copying a cd .

not quite as stupid as previous efforts

[ed.han]

sony appears to think that by making it more convenient they'll avoid backlash. while it's probably a matter of days before someone cracks it, this seems a lot less stupid than some of the previous efforts the record labels have taken.

ed

Hilarious QUote?

[n-baxley]

Why is that quote hilarious? Isn't that what we've been saying here all along? If you're waiting for the music companies to start saying that music swapping is just fine and they really don't mind, then you obviously don't understand the situation. There will be some form of DRM, period. This may be one solution. Apple has another solution. The market will decide what works, but you should realize that sooner or later, some form of reasonable DRM will come in to play.

Re:so now what,

[Neophytus]

700MB for a cd isn't what Joe teenager wants, especially when the the sharer's DSL/cable may be capped at 14kB/s up. Thats why people compress their music.

If they really trusted the consumer...

[WIAKywbfatw]

If they really trusted the consumer, wouldn't they forget about the copy prevention and the DRM stuff?

I just don't get it. Large scale-piracy outfits have access to large commercial presses, hence their being able to put out CDs that look just like the real thing. They sure as hell don't use burners, so all this copy protection is useless in combatting large-scale organised piracy. So, the only people that these new copy prevention and DRM techniques inconvenience are the consumers.

Tell me again how Sony is showing trust in the consumer?

Seems like a fair system

[hattig]

I expect that the logic behind this is simple - the average consumer will simply use the DRM music on their computer instead of ripping the audio files (which is more complex), and this DRM music will not be sharable, hence the real issue, music sharing, will be cut down.

However, it only needs something along the lines of

1) relying on a custom music playing application (windows only)
2) relying on Windows Media Player (ugliest nastiest application ever)

to make the whole system pointless.

But it is a step in the right direction of not messing with the audio on the CD, adding more value to the CD, and yet trying to maintain the rights of the copyright holder without messing with the rights of the consumer.

Re:Hilarious?

[AllenChristopher]

Because they aren't trusting us. They're putting DRMed files with untrusting restrictions on and hoping we'll use their software to use those files, accepting the restrictions, out of ignorance.

If they trusted us, they'd just print up CDs as usual and assume we wouldn't steal them.

I guess they're "trusting" that the ordinary consumer can't program his VCR, let alone evade a simple scheme, but that isn't the sense of trust that one wants.

Trusting the customer

[Pooquey]

It's a sad sad day when a record company executive can (even if in jest) refer to "trusting the customer" as a novelty. I'd boycott it for this cavalier attitude alone. However, as I have not purchased any new cd's in over 5 years, it's a non issue for me. Further, instead of "trusing the customer" on the DRM front, I think executives should be focusing on pumping quality out of the artists they sign. To paraphrase his quote, "If you give people what they want in terms of value," you'd five them music they actually wanted to hear instead of two or three singles on a cd chock full of crap.

Re:Hilarious quote?

[simoncrute]

Actually, I think they are giving ppl what they say they want.

Ppl say "I don't want to steal music, I just want to rip it to play it in my [mp3 player|mac|windows|linux pc]"

Well, if it's DRM'd WMA files or something it will probably be supported in most consumer MP3 hardware sooner or later.

No chance in linux though. :-(

still not worth it to me

[Vandil X]

I have become more accustomed to spending $2 or $3 on the 2-3 tracks I like via iTunes, and getting a superior-quality AAC sound file that I can convert to a high quality MP3.

Spending $14-18 on a CD-ROM (no longer an Audio CD) that has CD Audio, low-quality WMA files, links to low-info "exclusive" websites, and tiny music video files, just isn't worth it.

Reasonable compromise

[mwood]

So the disk will still work on real CD players, and I won't miss all the byproducts and floor sweepings shoveled into session 2. Good enough.

hellooooo

[DustyShadow]

If they used the millions that they spend to research this "copy protection" on finding good artists and not the same junk they've been putting out for the last 10 years, then maybe they could start trusting the consumer to purchase their products.

what we are asking for in terms of value....

[Epistax]

Cannot be fixed by adding useless crap to the CD's. Make the CD's cost less. Piracy will always exist and always had, it just wasn't quantifiable before the Internet.

Re:Hilarious?

[dAzED1]

not only would they do that, but they'd make it such that a CD costs what it should...$11 max, instead of $17 max.

Re:Hilarious?

[Mr_Silver]

If they trusted us, they'd just print up CDs as usual and assume we wouldn't steal them.

Trust has to be earned.

Judging by the vast amount of MP3's available on Kazaa, I see no reason why they shouldn't trust people who have shown time and time again that they'll happily make copyrighted material available to everyone for free.

Nice quote, but....

[AtariAmarok]

"All copy-protections can be hacked, but if (we) give people what they are asking for in terms of value, they won't go out and steal it. It's called trusting the consumer."

His heart is in the right place, but he really has to move away from RIAA word abuse. "Stealing" is something that has never been involved in the issue of copy protection, the p2p issue, etc.

Meh? I don't get it.

[Tinfoil]

Sony is doing the right thing. For years we have been screaming because the entertainment industry has been treating us like children, thinking that we can't do the right thing unless we are forced to.

Now Sony has come out with a scheme that shows they are beginning to place *some* trust back with the consumer and they are jumped all over?

I for one am pleased to see this small move towards the better from Sony.

Nice try.

[Anonymous Coward]

1) The disc can be played on almost any device conventionally, said Sony Music Chief Technology Officer Phil Wiser.

Almost -- hmm, what does this mean? Surely, this should be "-any-" if it complies with the Philips standard. I notice the article calls it a CD.

2) There are several limitations. The digital files will only play on Sony-licensed digital music players. Wiser said Sony is working on "plug-in's" that will allow the files to be played on more popular players like Microsoft's Windows Media. He expects the plug-ins to be available early next year.

Which players are currently 'Sony-licensed'? If those players are anything like the players that come with the 'copy-protected' discs, no one is going to use them. Why? They're absolute crap.

BTW, what are those other "more-popular" plug-ins?

Re:Hilarious?

[Noizemonger]

They dont restrict the usual content but give the legitimate buyer some bonus-material. If they do it right (real Bonus-Material, not Stuff they would put on the CD anyway), i think its fine.

Its like: Ok, you can copy the Album for a friend, but if he wants the extras he will have to buy it.

Pretty sensible stand for a music exec, imho.

Re:Hilarious quote?

[geschild]

Who modded parent up insightfull?!

The parent-post and replies to it completely miss the irony of putting copy right protection on a disc and then claiming to be 'trusting the consumer'.

This is the kind of 'trust' I give to my three year old kid!

Unfortunatly, to 'the bottle-is-half-empty' me, the sadness of the statement overshadows the funny aspect. Others may well perceive the text to be hilarious though...

Sheesh people, wake up...

Re:Hilarious?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're absolutely right. They'd have to be fools to trust us. They aren't fools, and they don't. That's why it's funny that they're saying they do. See?

Will it work on my system, though?

[shippo]

Audio systems have got more complicated these days, with many able to read ISO-9660 formatted discs.

My DVD stereo system can handle MP3 and WMA CDs as well as Audio CDs, DVD-Video and DVD-Audio (and some other image related formats as well).

The odds on such a system not playing back the audio tracks and instead playing back the WMA content may be quite high!

Re:Seems like a fair system

[Technician]

Too bad they won't get it right till I can rip, mix, burn. I don't do the CD shuffle in rush hour traffic. I load the MP3 CD and let it run. Somehow I think the Sony CD is still a broken format. The same applies for my CD jogger MP3 Player. Who works out carying a CD player and a CD wallet? I sure don't.

I'm not interested in deciding which DRM player format to buy. Music Match, I tunes, Napster, Get real. Provide MP3's. I already have the equipment. I don't need a 4-way VHS-Betamax DRM format battle. (MS, Samsung, Sony, Apple)

Re:Hilarious?

[NNKK]

Just hazarding a wild guess here: you can't play those DRM'd files on your linux jukebox anyway, because the industry you're praising can't be bothered to support anything other than Windows and, if we're lucky, MacOS. And even if they did, heaven help you if you want to be able to upgrade to the latest version of whatever distribution you're using. The propriatory (you think they'd make it open source? HAH!) plugin (IF you're lucky enough to get a plugin for whatever player you're using instead of having to use an entirely different and propriatory application) may not even run, and if it does, you'll be lucky if it does so without noticable problems.

I'd also love to know exactly how I could play the DRM'd files on my portable CD/mp3 player without having to buy an entirely new one. This one sure as hell ain't broken, and I'll be damned if I'm going to blow a bunch of money on a new one and gain nothing but the ability to play crippled files.

Re:Hilarious?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought it was supposed to be "hilarious" because he *is* saying what most people here already know and the record and music industries keep pretending isn't the case.

Namely: If you rely on copy protection to keep people from "pirating" music, people will just find a crack and find a way around it. If, on the other hand, consumers feel like their money is well spent in buying your product, and you add copy protection that makes it more convenient to play by the rules, *most* people will be satisfied and therefore too lazy to bother to "pirate".

This is actually the basis for all successful copy protection throughout history, the internet simply made traditional distribution means *less* convenient than "pirating".

Re:Hilarious?

[Eccles]

Trust has to be earned.

So why didn't I earn that trust when I went out and bought the CD, rather than grabbing it off Kazaa?

I'm the guy actually buying music, and 99% of the time, I'm not the guy who then goes and puts it on Kazaa. And if I was, a little thing like DRM isn't going to stop me.

You might as well trust and give good service to people who have demonstrated that they are legitimate customers.

Re:so now what,

[Inda]

Joe Teenager is a leech.

Joe lines up 20 ISOs for download and goes to bed. He is not worried if they take a day or two to download. He thinks nothing of downloading a 1.5Gb movie screener. He has a 24/7 connection and bandwidth to spare.

Joe also knows that only real men download ISOs.

Joe is your typical leech.

extra content not so special

[Anonymous Coward]

from my experience, extra content, even online content, isn't worth squat. usually these online sites are only maintained for a month or two, and they offer limited material -- maybe some wallpapers, a few shots of the band, and, if you're lucky, a downloadable live track or work-in-progress.

i've also had a few cds with extra content not work properly on my computers.

at most, this stuff is only worth looking at once. i just hope it doesn't increase the cost of the cd any.

Re:Hilarious?

[dmaxwell]

The only reason you can't have a rich warezed DVD experience is because it isn't practical. Most people don't have T3s in their homes. The divx warez that float around that you rightly suspect the quality of are barely practical. Copy protection on DVDs has very little to do with it. Actually copy protection has little to do with warezing in any media. It always gets broken irregardless of technical and legal obstacles...maybe even BECAUSE of the technical and legal obstacles.

Re:Hilarious?

[Anthracks]

Come on, you can come up with a better straw man than that. If a CD included interesting information on the creative process of the album, yes, I would buy it. You know, ocassionally there are actually interesting extras; they're not all stupid outtakes of actors fucking up for you to chuckle at once then never watch again. I happen to be interested in the process of film making, so I really appreciate it when a DVD includes insightful segments on the making of the film or the director's reasoning for doing various things.

Granted, Generic Teen Comedy #52 isn't going to blow you away with its "special behind the scenes footage", but take Lord of the Rings for example. The "Platinum Edition" is literally only a few bucks more than the regular DVD and incldues tons of features on how the movie was made, interviews with actors, etc. which to me are more than worth the price of entry. Maybe it's just me, but when someone goes out of their way to produce a superior product, whether it's a small indie film studio or band (which is usually the case) or a major production company (rare), I try to reward that buy not stealing it.

CD Protection, NOT

[Plasmagrid]

2 sessions on 1 CD well to me it would seem as to use and APPZ to toggle to the 2nd session and rip to wav then convert.

Some things are better the OLD FASHIONED way

The other half of the formula

[dcavanaugh]

Well, Sony isn't testing the full formula either.

As you correctly point out, there is a problem in that current pricing has no link to the cost of production (which has dropped dramatically). Piracy happens when the product pricing motivates pirates.

Sony can either try and add value to justify the pricing, or they can fight a losing DRM battle. Unfortunately, most of the "value added" is just a workaound to the losing DRM battle. I see no need to pay them just to work around a problem they created in the first place. I can solve the technical problem without Sony's help.

At a price of $1/song or $2/disc, piracy would be a waste of time, and the product could still be profitable. At some price higher than that, piracy would be tolerable and the product would be more profitable. Then we have today's prices -- the pirates are in the driver's seat.

Re: Hilarious?

[Wah]

If CD prices dropped past the $10 range (to only 1000% of the break even point) there is far less economic reason to download an album. Hmm, let's see, spend 1 hour working, make $8. Spend 1 hour finding all the tracks of the same quality, testing,them, organizing them, and burning them. If a CD costs less than that $8, there isn't too much question about how I should spend my time (and money).

If CD's drop below that special price point for their main customers, they will be as 'free' as the stuff one can download.

Remember folks, the whole equation is over T.

Re:You're missing the point.

[Anonymous Coward]

People who buy CDs are the problem. How do the files get there in the first place if not from CDs (and don't give me that bit about it all being from inside jobs - the majority of the files I downloaded in the Napster days were bad rips from CDs, not ripped from masters)?

The other argument: that if you cut CD prices you'll lessen the urge to download - that's a good argument.

Re:Hilarious?

[glesga_kiss]

I'm not the guy who then goes and puts it on Kazaa. And if I was, a little thing like DRM isn't going to stop me.

Shudder. I point this out everytime there is an article about DRM on audio CDs. Yet people just don't get it!!

This system is completely counter-productive. Yes, I feel bold type is neccessary. Now, as the parent post points out, DRM is not going to stop someone determined enough, if they want it, they'll find a way to rip it.

This is where the industries lack of understanding about p2p is really showing through. Right now, getting a whole album can be difficult. Because so many different people make rips, there are lots of different files to choose from, and if you are not lucky enough to find an archive of the whole disk, you have a task on your hands building the album up.

Now we are in a situation where making the rips is more difficult, so there will be less of them. In the p2p world, this is actually an advantage, as less varieties means more sources. More sources means faster and more reliable downloads.

And given the fact that to break the DRM, the person is likely to be technically knowledgable, it follows that there is a good chance that these fewer varieties will all be of good or very good quality. They are making the music easier to get from p2p!!

The only advantage of audio CD DRM is that it stops causual copying by friends. However, these people will then turn to p2p instead, if their current system of getting media fails to work. They aren't just going to stop!!

Nice shot in the foot, Sony!! Combined with annoying users, incompatibility problems (my car mp3 player won't work with them), it's your own funeral.