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Music Media

Decoding the Algorithm for Pop Music 353

fb4f writes "Over at Modplug, they have an article describing a mathematical algorithm to predict if a given song will become a hit or not. Paraphrasing the article, a Spanish company called Polyphonic HMI has made a business out of analyzing song submissions and predicting their "hitability". Here's their description of the algorithm and here's their FAQ. They claim to have predicted the commercial success of Norah Jones through this method. Here's my question (which is not fully answered in their FAQ): if they (music company executives) are currently using the algorithm to screen submissions for their "hitability", can we (people who listen to music) use the same algorithm to reject recycled tunes and encourage originality? I for one, still like the fresh talent and community feel of the tracking scene."
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Decoding the Algorithm for Pop Music

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  • Not new (Score:2, Interesting)

    by DrMorris ( 156226 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @12:14PM (#7542162)
    There has been something similiar about 2 or 3 years ago. However: I didn't believe it's success back then, and I don't believe it today.
  • And my question ... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by rastakid ( 648791 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @12:18PM (#7542189) Homepage Journal
    "Here's my question (which is not fully answered in their FAQ): if they (music company executives) are currently using the algorithm to screen submissions for their "hitability", can we (people who listen to music) use the same algorithm to reject recycled tunes and encourage originality?"

    And here's my question: can we use this algorithm to create the hit, instead of determining wether or not it's gonna be a hit?
  • Classical (Score:4, Interesting)

    by J_Omega ( 709711 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @12:20PM (#7542204)
    AFAIK, this isn't new. This technique has been in use for years, at least theoretically.

    IIRC, this was first tested on random samplings of classical music. Beethoven and Mozart scored significantly better that others.

  • The Manual (Score:4, Interesting)

    by phaxkolumbo ( 572192 ) <phaxkolumbo@NoSPaM.gmail.com> on Sunday November 23, 2003 @12:27PM (#7542234)

    The Manual [instrumentality.com] - how to have a number one - the easy way.

    Written by the Timelords (the KLF)

    (i know, this is a bit offtopic, but hey!, why not?)

  • by shufler ( 262955 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @12:27PM (#7542236) Homepage
    I don't see why not -- put a song through the program, and based on it's results, make your changes. The FAQ states many times that their software doesn't create music, it simply analyses it. No doubt the record execs are sitting around looking at the analysis, asking, "What needs to be tweaked so more 13 year olds will get their parents to buy this?" (The answer being nothing, as that job is left to the marketing department)
  • by newsdee ( 629448 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @12:30PM (#7542260) Homepage Journal
    A few years ago I saw an interview of a "composer" (forgot his name). They're guys who are somewhat famous because their name is in a lot of albums, but in very small print: they compose the actual music that the band plays. This is standard practice, apparently.

    Anyway the point is that the guy pointed out that most pop tunes were rehashes of older pop hits. Maybe you create a different style with different instruments or beat, but the underlying melody is the same. He then showed some examples, in how some modern R&B titles were lifted off some older Rock titles. It's not that hard to believe though, look at how Puff Daddy makes a living out of talking fast over music of old hits.

    So in short, one way to predict if a music will be a hit is by creating a database of previous hits and test the correlation...

    [and then of course, there's those who say that Classical music tried every combination possible, so nothing can be new afterwards - but that's maybe a little extreme].

  • Snake oil? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Xzzy ( 111297 ) <sether@@@tru7h...org> on Sunday November 23, 2003 @12:33PM (#7542272) Homepage
    The article states:

    "This software will compare the song to a database that contains the "top-30" hit songs of the past five years in order to search for mathematical similarities. The algorithm then assigns each song a score between one and 10. Any song rated more than seven is likely to become a hit."

    Now think about this.. use musical eras like the 80's and early 90's as an example because it's reasonably safe to assume this technology didn't exist at that point.

    Look at the charts in 5 year chunks, it all sounds the same. In the 80's, everyone either used a synthesizer or had a raging, face-melting solo at some point in the song. Or the early 90's, "grunge" was being pounded into our head incessantly.

    It was like that because it was popular. Band X makes it big, and suddenly Bands X1 through X255 appear on the charts mimicing this sound. This seems to happen in, amazingly enough, cycles of 5 years.

    Seems to me this software does nothing to show the "hitability" of a song, but rather telling you whether or not it sounds just like what's currently popular, and has been for the past couple years.

    Seems about as magical to me as as an algrorythm claiming it can detect boys that like looking at porn.
  • Re:Karma Hit (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bj8rn ( 583532 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @12:38PM (#7542303)
    Out of sheer boredom, I actually tried to do this sometime this summer. I took a bunch (something around 20) of SCO stories and read all the +4/+5 comments. Surprise surprise, the overall situation wasn't really as bad as I thought it would be. Yes, there were some patterns in what was said, but even if someone did get modded up for saying something that was obvious they always had some argumentation supporting what they said. Simple bashing might get you modded up for a moment, but you'll be modded down the moment someone posts an intelligent reply.
  • Re:Can't be done (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 23, 2003 @12:49PM (#7542360)
    Which just goes to show how racist America still is. You just don't get black pop stars if they're not singing hip hop or jazz or some of that other Africian style music.
  • Re:Karma Hit (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MooseGuy529 ( 578473 ) <i58ht6b02@[ ]akemail.com ['sne' in gap]> on Sunday November 23, 2003 @01:12PM (#7542475) Homepage Journal

    Someone should make a program that when you ask it to, downloads a story (showing all comments and with the number per page at max so it doesn't have to spider and piss off slashcode) and splits the comments into -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 "buckets" and creates a spam filter. Then, you can apply it to other stories. Sorting by topic would be good, since saying Windows in an Apple story has a good chance of being a flame (or maybe a comparison), but saying it in a story about Longhorn [sucks] probably is less important.

  • Copyright (Score:2, Interesting)

    by yerricde ( 125198 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @01:16PM (#7542495) Homepage Journal

    Anyway the point is that the guy pointed out that most pop tunes were rehashes of older pop hits.

    And this is how the situation perpetuates itself. If somebody new to the scene comes in and tries to write an original song, he will undoubtedly get bit by an earworm of a song that was popular decades ago but is still copyrighted. Then the older song's publisher will sue the rookie.

    Yes, it could happen, and yes, it did happen: Bright Tunes Music v. Harrisongs Music [columbia.edu].

    and then of course, there's those who say that Classical music tried every combination possible

    The established songwriters' counsel will do everything in their power to downplay this theory so that they can prevail in a copyright infringement case. The argument might go a little something like this [slashdot.org]: if the rookie has heard the established songwriter's song even once on the radio, and the two songs are "substantially similar," then the rookie has infringed copyright.

    Apparently, the only way [slashdot.org] to avoid a lawsuit entirely is to cover songs from the public domain.

  • by yerricde ( 125198 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @01:25PM (#7542539) Homepage Journal

    Maybe it could compose the chant melody by recognizing actual chords in the samples, and applying known hamonic rules to end up with a melody to put on top of it

    But because the space of pleasing music is so littered with copyrights [slashdot.org], anybody who publishes such a song may get sued into oblivion. Believe me; I tried implementing algorithmic composition once, but I noticed bits and pieces of songs I knew to be copyrighted in its output, and who knows what other copyrights the program violated.

    Along these lines, you may find this short story by Spider Robinson [baen.com] interesting.

  • Re:Recipe music (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jefu ( 53450 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @01:28PM (#7542546) Homepage Journal
    IOW, our algorithm says music is good if it sounds like everything else people think is good right now, and if it's different from current Top 40, it's crap.

    I read that more as "our algorithm doesn't work most of the time, but if we get to rig the test, er, um, choose the musical style we want to deal with, we do ok."

    If they could identify a set of interesting weights (or whatever) that their stuff comes up with, and track those weights over time, then if the time series are anywhere near smooth they could predict what will be hot next year. Then too the act of predicting the future can well change it...

  • by theoddball ( 665938 ) <theoddball@NOsPaM.gmail.com> on Sunday November 23, 2003 @02:11PM (#7542722)
    Rivers (that enigmatic, endearingly geeky Weezer frontman) has been doing this for years, by himself. He has notebooks and notebooks filled with his mathematical analyses of many of the biggest pop and rock hits ever written.

    Appears to work (or at least teach him a pattern)--Weezer's damn catchy.

  • Re:Star success? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by solarium_rider ( 677164 ) on Sunday November 23, 2003 @06:09PM (#7543826)
    It's kinda easy to predict Norah Jones will be a big hit, AFTER the fact that she is already a big hit. That's like predicting what will happen on your birthday, the day after.

    Polyphonic HMI had nothing to do with her success, she was actually taken under the wing and helped to the top by my favorite 8-string guitarrist, Charlie Hunter (formerly of Blue Note.)

    From jambase [jambase.com]: "En route to a recording session for his most recent Blue Note release, Songs from the Analog Playground, eight-string guitar wizard Charlie Hunter and his bandmates first heard the First Sessions EP when their manager was played the album way to the studio. At first note, orders ensued to find the girl at once. Contact was made and Norah was hunted down at the Midtown restaurant where she was working as a waitress. Arriving at the studio and meeting the musicians, Norah was given the lyrics to a song written by Brian Ferry entitled "More Than This." Never before seeing these words let alone knowing the song, Norah was asked to just give it a shot. After getting a feel for the song, she began to sing the band playing behind her. At song's end, Norah timidly asked, "if that was okay?" For a minute everyone in the room remained speechless, mesmerized by Norah's radiant essence. Unanimously, it was decided that yes, it was in fact okay."

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