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The Almighty Buck Businesses

Stealth Inflation 796

prostoalex writes "The New York Times on the Web explores the topic of incorrect bills and numerous surcharges with names like 'assessment', 'handling', 'restocking', etc. David Pogue quotes Business Week magazine, where it says that such small charges $100 million annually for hotels, $2 billion for banks and $11 billion for credit-card companies. Users of landline phones, cell phones, checking accounts and credit cards are starting to suspect that such huge revenue might imply the mistakes are made on purpose. Is it just another conspiracy theory, or are we becoming victims to the stealth inflation?"
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Stealth Inflation

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  • by garcia ( 6573 ) * on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:17PM (#7630617)
    How about physicians? I had a couple appointments with my family doctor to regulate my blood pressure... At one of the earlier appointments she took an EKG. Being 24 and never having one before I wanted it explained to me. She spent 2 or 3 minutes (and I am being loose here with the timeframe, it was only as long as it took me to put on my jacket and hat) explaining the peaks and what she thought they meant.

    Out the door I went into the world to get a new prescription filled and pay my co-pay...

    A few weeks pass and the bill from the doctor's office comes showing what the insurance company paid, etc, and that I owed $5. No biggy, pretty typical. I did see that she charged my insurance company $103 for an "EKG Consultation Fee". Call me insane but there is absolutely no way she had the right to charge $103 for a 2 minute deal.

    I went in the next time and not so calmly explained to her that she will not do that again without a) telling me what she is going to later charge, b) lying about what she was really doing, and c) being a cheat.

    We wonder why insurance costs so much... It's because of hidden fees and bullshit that the medical industry decides to make a quick buck on.

    That doctor made as much in 2 minutes as I do in 6 hours at work... She will NOT fleece me again like that... To those of you that say, "who cares, your insurance covered it." I say that my insurance co-pays just went up and they probably won't stop there. I am not going to stand idly by and watch this shit go down and you shouldn't either.

    How about my bank? TCF here in Minnesota. I *pay* for their advanced online banking service (it's just like any other free service I have had before but it shows all the transactions immediately unlike their free version which just shows a balance). I started noticing that I was being charged for using out of network ATMs when I wasn't using them. I had four $6 charges in a six week period. I had to call them each time and get them removed. It wasn't an issue to get it removed it was the unsettling feeling that other people out there that don't have the advanced online banking are getting ripped off, a lot.

    Sad state of affairs these days...

    Just my worthless .02,
  • Inflation (Score:5, Interesting)

    by musingmelpomene ( 703985 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:19PM (#7630643) Homepage
    Inflation hasn't only gone up because of things like this, but because of the increasing dollar amount of taxes being subtracted from paychecks. Even if your paycheck is the same as 10 years ago, your take-home pay is very likely less. These surcharges are yet another way that make you think you're making the same amount - when really, you're making less and less, every day.
  • Stealth tax (Score:5, Interesting)

    by RealProgrammer ( 723725 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:21PM (#7630676) Homepage Journal

    It all started with adding the sales tax to an item's advertised price to make up the real cost to purchase it.

    That still annoys me.

  • by FlyGirl ( 11285 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:24PM (#7630709)
    Like the "lifeline service fee" that gives free phone service to people who can't afford it... It's just another hidden tax.

    There's also the "airport service fees" at airports.

    And I love how, the few times I have been in the hospital, I end up getting 30 different bills from 30 different organizations and SELDOM does the whole thing get handled by insurance companies without my having to get involved.
  • by sameb ( 532621 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:25PM (#7630720) Homepage
    It's sad that when people tell horror stories, others reply, "Yeah, that's about normal." We should not sit idly by while companies continue to 'mistakenly' swindle consumers out of money. I have personally spent countless hours fighting with RCN (a cable/phone/internet) company to refund $182.91 that they owe me. The full story is available at my RCN sucks [nyu.edu] page. I've had to resort to telling my credit card company to refuse payment, because RCN still refuses to return the money they owe me.
  • by MsWillow ( 17812 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:27PM (#7630739) Homepage Journal
    I'd be inclined to agree, at least some of these ridiculous surcharges are deliberate. Recently, I purchased some DDR Ram, for which they tried to charge me extra to test it. When it arrived, I installed it, and my machine did nothing at all. I got the RMA, and sent it back for refund - they told me I'd get the "restocking" fee.

    Thankfully, I'd used VISA to buy it, and complained to my bank, which refunded it in toto. The company did, eventually, issue me a credit - not only did they take out their "restocking" fee, but charged me to test it when it got there, *and* then credited me based on the current price of the ram, not what I'd paid!

    Thank heaven for VISA. I did get *all* my money back (had to let the bank take the pitiful excuse for a refund that the company issued).

    So yes, these "hidden" charges are, in at least some cases, the way companies can increase their profit margins. Caveat emptor, indeed!
  • by milgr ( 726027 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:28PM (#7630756)
    Charging for minimal consultations is nothing new for doctors. Over 20 years ago, my father was in the hospital for a heart attack. The insurance was charged for an initial consultation by a doctor who openned the door, peeked in, and closed the door.

    When he was in the hospital for subsequent heart attacks, any time a doctor would peer into the room, he would check if he was being charged, and if so, he would make sure that the doctor answered some questions.

    I must be in the wrong profession to make money - if I was a doctor, I could charge $150/30 sec (25 of those seconds would be walking to the next patient's room).

  • by aminorex ( 141494 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:30PM (#7630787) Homepage Journal
    The poster proposes a false dilemma:
    "Is it just another conspiracy theory, or are
    we becoming victims to the stealth inflation?"
    Clearly both are true, if one accepts the
    non-standard uses of "stealth" and "inflation".
  • by Puff65535 ( 135814 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:31PM (#7630797) Homepage
    Back in the 80's my mom used to record _all_ of her long distance calls and numbers on the calendar next to the phone (having only one phone, and little kids who didn't use it helped) and every few bills they'd try and screw us out of 50 cents to a dollar. After 2 years of calling up and screaming she started going into the main office and grumping in person, demanding the manager etc. After a couple of those and proof that we weren't home on days when calls were billed our bill mysteriously quit having problems and has been that way for the last 15 years.
  • by simi-lost ( 639853 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:32PM (#7630815)
    I have to point out on my new Sprint bill, there is a $2.50 charge A MONTH for Number Portability, should I ever decide to change to another carrier. I know they had said it would be a reasonable fee, but that is outragous. Multiply that $2.50 per customer, per month, and that's one HELL of a profit. Sure would love to start a movement to blow that scam out of the water...
  • by jjn1056 ( 85209 ) <jjn1056&yahoo,com> on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:32PM (#7630818) Homepage Journal
    When I got my first student loan back in 1992, the cut out 4.5% right away... Called origination-destination charges or something like that...

    They took like $600 US before the check even arrived at the school!

    You might notice these fees apply more to people who are in need. I remember when I first got out of school I had trouble saving money, and a few times my bank account fell below the minimum and they got me for $25 bucks. Of course now that I make a good income, I find that I don't get caught on many of those hidden fees. Everyone wants to be nice to me now :)

    Of course I do pay higher taxes, but I really didn't notice that as much as you would think.

  • Re:Oh yes (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Peyna ( 14792 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:35PM (#7630854) Homepage
    I bet if you had 2 identical auctions except one had free shipping and the other had a $10 shipping charge, the one with free shipping would sell for more than $10 greater than the one with the shipping charge.
  • Money rules (Score:5, Interesting)

    by thelenm ( 213782 ) <mthelen AT gmail DOT com> on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:37PM (#7630879) Homepage Journal
    When it comes to money (specifically, other people getting their hands on yours), everything is done on purpose. Everything. People will do anything they need to do, and will fight harder for money than they will for their own lives. Haven't you figured that out by now?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:37PM (#7630887)
    I used to work for an outsource bank data processor. We had a customer who required us to apply debits before credits because it generated more fees that way.

    Not all banks did this, and it wasn't standard practice (at the time -- don't know now). It was odd enough that it was the talk of our company for a couple of weeks.
  • This sucks (Score:5, Interesting)

    by hackstraw ( 262471 ) * on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:44PM (#7630965)
    I've noticed this for years and its gotten entirely out of hand. I am now forced to ask people stupid questions like "How much does the $19.95 a day truck cost?" I was shocked to find out that at UHaul it actually cost 19.95 plus mileage.

    I refuse to get phone service because of this, cell or otherwise. It is insane that the priveledge of using over 100 year old technology to talk to people costs on order of 1/2 the amount to power my house for a month.

    I pay over $1,600 dollars a year in taxes for my house which is in a city. I always thought that city == trash pickup because of said taxes. Nope, they charge me 15 bucks a month on my water bill for trash, plus 4 dollars "maintence" on the sewer systems. I dunno what the sewer charge is for.

    The only way that this is going to stop is if people stop paying for it. I have asked hotels to take off the safe charge.

    Back to the phone thing. I promptly canceled my last phone after the 12.95 a month phone cost me over $26 (yes thats double!). I told them that it was deceitful and false advertising and under no circumstances was I goint to pay that, and I have been without a phone for 6 months or so (my work does pay for a cell, so I'm not that hardcore). This phone thing really pissed me off because it was a switch of providers that I agreed to because it was going to save me $10 a month. Being that I was writing a check for over $26 before and after, I do not see how I was saving anything. These extra costs make price comparison imposible and I think that it should be illegal.
  • by rm007 ( 616365 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:45PM (#7630971) Journal
    Things such as deregulation, increased competition and globalization etc. have all squeezed profit margins. Adding these charges or systematically making mistakes that only a minority will catch all help to increase profits while keeping the headline cost of the product or service the same. Of course it makes comparing genuine prices impossible, but that's the point. It's also the point of making things like cell phone plans as complex as possible - they don't want you to be able to compare between competitors.
  • Re:Oh yes (Score:3, Interesting)

    by One Louder ( 595430 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:46PM (#7630985)
    I've had a software company that sold most of its product through distribution (Ingram, etc), but we supported one-off shipping directly to customers that wanted it. We charged a handling fee that was about $10 per unit and we didn't make any money doing so - there was a full-time employee handling these items, which might be 20-30 a day, and given her salary, benefits, packaging, necessary equipment and overhead, it cost us just about $10/unit.

    Could we have been more efficient? Perhaps - but only after spending money to become so. Either way, the costs had to be made up by the customer. If you came to pick up the item in person, you didn't get charged.

    I can assure you that if somebody's offering "free shipping and handling" it just means they buried the cost.

  • So true... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by bjdevil ( 190608 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:48PM (#7631013)

    My wife had a c-section last November and it required an epidural(sp?). The eppy needle left a slight leak of spinal fluid (happens about 3% or so of the time when they do them), which in turn lowers the brain fluid level, which can cause horrible headaches when the woman stands up (i.e. her brain slaps against the skull w/o the fluid cushion).

    My wife started having headaches, and we asked the nurse to get a doctor/anesthesiologist to come check her out. An anesthesiologist comes in and talks to us and says that she probably has a very light case of it (which turned out to be the case) and told her to drink caffeinated soda. It took him 3 minutes to discuss it. Dude didn't even walk all the way in the room - stood near the door the whole time and then left. When we got the statements from the insurance company, it turned out the dude had charged $300 for the three minute "consult"! Total BS... I used to feel sorry for docs in general for getting squeezed by insurance companies (malpractice insurance, HMO contracts, etc.) until I saw that.

    It's become a war between the physicians and the insurance industries - elevating the stakes over and over again, forgetting that us peons aren't making enough money to cover the increasing premiums.

  • by nolife ( 233813 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:55PM (#7631115) Homepage Journal
    The trend in rebates is getting annoying also. Take a look at a BestBuy ad. 90% of the products have rebates to get the advertised price. These people are driving themselves into the ground with trying to manipulate the lowest advertised price. I assume at some point consumers are going to have enough and stop buying there, maybe it will be when every single product in the store has a $20 rebate.

    Off topic but I went there on black Friday. I did not expect the door busters to still be there but I thought at least a few of the Fri/Sat only things would still be there. I looked for about 15 things in the ad and the only thing that was still in stock was a pair of $15 speakers. They've been in business long enough to get a general idea of what to stock and how much, "15 per store" is insane and not even worth the printing space in the weekly ad. Thier lack of stock was NOTHING but a blatent attempt of bait and switch to get you in the store. Walmart has it's flaws but they were still putting out pallets of $29 DVD players at 2:00pm. BestBuy probably sold all 5 of thiers (5 indivudual units, not pallets) by 6:01am and the probably were $119 with 3 different $30 mail in rebates that all required the original UPC code and 12-26 weeks to deliver.

    These tactics are all "hidden costs" that consumers are subjected too.
  • Power bill errors (Score:2, Interesting)

    by raider_red ( 156642 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:01PM (#7631182) Journal
    A friend of mine got a power bill from OOG&E a couple of months ago for over $350. When she called to ask about the rather glaring overcharge, she was informed that it would take a $50 fee to send someone out to re-read her power-meter. So, they left her with a choice of dealing with a mistake, or paying extra to the power company to fix their own mistake.
  • by mesocyclone ( 80188 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:07PM (#7631265) Homepage Journal
    For some time, credit card issuers have made almost all of their profit on late charges. The interest primarily pays off fraud losses.

    I know of one large issuer which has processing centers in many states. It intentionally mails its bills from the one with the longest average snail-mail delivery to your address (a friend of mine was in the meeting where this strategy was hatched at that company). Credit card companies have also greatly increased their late fees (they used to be trivial) and a late payment will usually cause any interest rate deal that you had to disappear, with your rate going very high.

    In the good old days, paying your credit card bills on time was the best way to have good credit. Today, credit card companies prefer people who pay late, but always pay, and also those who keep big balances on the cards. Pay your card late and watch the increase in credit card solicitations in your mailbox!

    I have a couple of cards that account for almost all my credit card usage. I use automatic electronic payments monthly out to eternity to those cards... payments exceeding the minimum payment expected. This avoids any late payment charges (and the loss of my mileage points) should I not get around to processing the bill and sending in the full payment in time.
  • MCI is the Worst. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by groebke ( 313135 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:10PM (#7631303)
    I used to work for MCI as a analyst. My job was to "fix" problems in the billing systems. If an issue was over $20,000 then we would consider resolving it. On several occasions, I came across unreported problems that were costing the customer more money than advertised, and I was told that we' "only resolve issue that are brought to us by customer complaint." Also, if an issue impacted more customers than the complaining customer, no refund was granted, except to the customer that complained. 99% of the issues I was assigned had one complaintant, but impacte 100's if not 1,000's of additional MCI customers.

    One issue that sticks out in my mind dealt with the personal 800 service users being charged international rates for a domestic call. Someone forgot the jump in a nested loop. Oops. That COBOL can be trickey. lol.
  • by owlmon ( 696565 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:16PM (#7631377)
    When I saw the headline of this posting, I was hoping that the article would be about the Federal Reserve Bank. What a disappointment.

    The Fed has been printing money like mad, for several years now. This is inflation, big time. The published rate of inflation is below 2% per annum, but this is deceiving. Consider an example: an electric table saw.

    Perhaps its price has barely changed in the last two years. Is this an example of low inflation? No. The price changed only a little, but the table saw changed a lot. Two years ago, most of the manufacturing that went into the table saw was performed in the U.S. or Japan, or possibly Taiwan. Today, most of the manufacturing took place in China. The cost of this production decreased dramatically. The price did not. Where did the difference go? Was it turned into profit? Doubtful. Except for markets where a monopoly exists, profits are constrained by competition.

    A similar story has developed for services. Consider an insurance policy, a home equity loan, or the interpretation of your last mammogram. Over the past several years, all three of these services became much cheaper to provide, due to offshoring. The labor used to provide these services gradually moved to India. The phone support, the analysis of creditworthiness, the medical transcription, the inspection of X-ray images, all of this (and much more) is steadily moving overseas.

    The price, in dollars, of these goods and services has not changed much. The nature of these goods and services has changed tremendously. How is this possible? It's because the government has been printing money like crazy. It's not easy to figure out how much new money is being created. For some reason, newspapers love to report changes in the interest rates controlled by the Fed. They even report rumors of future changes in this rate. The byproduct of these rate manipulations is usually an increase in the money supply, and this information is rarely reported. If mentioned at all, it is in the form of an aside to a more "important" development. I've seen figures ranging from 6% per annum to 12% per annum. I don't know what the true figure is. But I do know that prices on goods and services should be in free fall right now. This, because every month, more of these goods and services are being produced by dirt cheap overseas labor.

    We're enduring lower pay and more frequent spells of unemployment, due to offshoring. We're being denied the benefits of cheaper foreign-made goods and services, due to the Fed.
  • by micq ( 266015 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:16PM (#7631383)
    You could get away with this. There were guys in my old neighborhood that mowed lawns, then later billed the customer, even though no one asked for their lawn to be mowed... so it was kinda like shareware mowing... anyways, those who didn't want to pay, didn't, and the guys didn't mow their lawn anymore. Point being, they weren't doing anything illegal, they were providing a service and billing for it, if the customer didn't pay, they didn't have a foot to stand on, but that was ok.

    You provided a service for teh company, billing checking, and found errors, problems, etc... I say go for it :)

    Disclaimer: IANAL
  • by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:18PM (#7631394) Homepage
    no it is not.

    send them a bill.... Check writing fee : $9.95

    you are doing business with them, you have a business relationship with them and it's perfectly legal.

    I have done that for the past 2 years with the local Telephone company cince they atsrtedto charge $5.00 a month for making electronic payments.

    They refused to pay it for the first 3 months until I sent a letter that I was going to send them to collections. I got a telephone call from their finance department asking what was up and I told them it was a fee they are being charged for me to write them a check every month. They asked how could they avoid the fee and I said, accept my electronic payment without a surcharge.

    They keep paying it, and I even recently started sending a note on the bill "remove this check writing fee by accepting no-charge electronic payments!"

    works great, is 100% legal (if they want to stop getting billed they can stop the business relationship with me.) and my lawyer thought I was very innovative and also told me that I am within my right to do what I am doing.

    YMMV, but doing this is not automatically illegal as the misinformed here say.
  • I can agree with a lot of the thoughts on this subject, but people are leaving out a Very Big part of the equation.

    Say you're Joe Average. Your family salary is average (say $60,000 a year, combined), with 2.5 kids and a dog.

    Joe Average needs a Coronary bypass which conservatively costs $200,000.

    Without insurance, Joe Average is dead. With insuance, his outlay is something between $0 and $5000.

    Sounds like Joe just won the Lottery. As stated before, my twins and their complicated pregnancy probably would have cost me half amillion dollars out of pocket. As it is, it didn't cost a dime. (well, _maybe_ $200 in co-pays.)

    So, Half a million for the birth of two healthy boys. How much has my family paid into insurance? A helluva lot less than that. Perhaps $12,000 over the last 5-10 years.

    It's not the annual checkups the insuance covers for you, it's the absolute destruction of all past and future income.
  • by scoove ( 71173 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:21PM (#7631431)
    I see no reason why I can't charge back any company/utility that bills me erroneously for the time that I must spend in finding the error

    Might be a good basis for a small claims action (IANAL - how about one out there?).

    I've had an ongoing battle with Alltel cellular over a similar overcharge matter to that described in the article. Signed up for 1200 minute plan, got a 600 minute plan and a whopper bill. Paid the bill and requested the credit only to be billed the credit amount.

    This happened three times, and having passed Accounting 101 back in college, I still can't figure out how one bills a credit. The memo on the bill said "CREDIT" but little details like pluses and minuses make a big difference (apparently Alltel's system required someone to input a negative number for it to be recognized as money owed back to the customer).

    They never did figure it out and ended up owing close to a grand by the time I cancelled. I guess it's a great business model - steal as much money as possible before the customer notices. When they leave you, refuse to hand it back and let them realize the cost of an attorney is more than the value of what they've stolen. It happens all the time in the carrier/wholesale telecom business - so much that most telcos have to have a full time carrier audit person (or more) that gets to review and discover all the "mistakes."

    Happens all the time. Perhaps the small claims law needs to be revised up to $2500 - its too easy for an Alltel to double the $500 cap for most small claims courts and force it to expensive litigation.

    *scoove*
  • by rdslater596 ( 472943 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:27PM (#7631512)
    Yes physicians and hospitals can really bilk it up. Upon reviewing the bill for my grandmother's expenses there were charges for services like x-rays and other tests dated AFTER SHE WAS DEAD AND IN THE GROUND!! Got to hand it to em...most people don't bother to check cause its all billed to insurance. I beleive on a 200,000 dollar bill there was some 40,000 in bogus charges (money racks up in the ICU).
  • a cautionary tale (Score:5, Interesting)

    by theCat ( 36907 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:28PM (#7631533) Journal
    I am married and my wife raises the kids and manages the home. She also does the bills. We try to do as much electronic commerce as we can, and pay our bills online. Since she knows very well what our expenses ought to be, and has access to detailed statements online and time to go over them, she finds things constantly. Mostly it is just random stuff where you say "wtf?" and make a phone call to get your bill adjusted. But we had a real dust-up with [cell phone service starting with S] over our family cell phone plan, where they were charging us hundreds of dollars extra on our phone bill for months on end. Every month we knew we would have to call them to get $100-$400 worth of charges removed, 8 hour calls to places we never even heard of, totally off the wall. Finally they "fixed" it and we have not been troubled for over a year. If we had not annoyed them so furiously for most of a year before, would our billing ever have straightened itself out? Not on your life! But what in the world actually *changed* in their system to shield us from bogosity I could not tell you!

    I am dead certain that most (if not all) [cell phone service starting with S] customers are being overbilled on their mobile phone usage just as we were, and I suppose [cell phone service starting with S] spends a lot of time adjusting bills. There must be some really horrendous software blackhole in their billing system that gravitationally slings stray phone charges all over the database like so many loose asteriods.

    Why we sucked up so many nasty stray bits remains a mystery. Were they testing us because we were new with a one year lockin? Rather more a mystery is how it stopped. I can tell you *why* it stopped, and it was because of my wife. So they have control of some kind, which they exercise at need.

    What makes you reach for the tinfoil hat is the thought that maybe they don't "fix" the problem at the core because as a business matter it makes them money. Someone did the math and elected to a) invest less in expensive engineers doing process debugging, b) spend a little hiring low-paid phone jockies in Nevada to debate billing issues with irate customers, and 3) scrape off whatever is not adjusted as easy money.

    It is the lure of easy money, and avoidance of hard work, that creates this nonsense. Now that we have transferable mobile numbers let's see how long it takes service providers to clean up their act. And, let's see if honest billing impacts the bottom line.
  • by m0nkyman ( 7101 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:30PM (#7631551) Homepage Journal
    I actually do this. I usually write it up as bookkeeping charges. They waste my time figuring out what the charges are for, so I charge them my usual hourly. I feel it is valid to charge them for my time when it is their bookkeeping "error".

    Telephone and cable companies never pay them, but it makes me feel better anyway ;)
  • by jazman_777 ( 44742 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:34PM (#7631593) Homepage
    I went in the next time and not so calmly explained to her that she will not do that again without a) telling me what she is going to later charge, b) lying about what she was really doing, and c) being a cheat.

    My wife used to work for a software company whose product audited claims submitted by doctors. The software was free (to insurance companies, state agencies like Medicare), but they had to pay a percentage of the money saved to the software company. How was money saved? Doctors routinely double-submitted claims, claims for things they hadn't really done, and on and on.

    This software company was doing pretty well.

  • Re:Stealth tax (Score:3, Interesting)

    by egarland ( 120202 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:34PM (#7631597)
    I agree. We are all getting used to the "Cost" of an item being less when we ask a sales person then when we ask a cash register. The sales tax started this. To me, it's fine if you are going to add tax but you sould be required to include the tax in any listed price. It's time for a federal law mandating that. Otherwise you never really know how much things are going to cost.

    And all non-optional fees that are directly related to the purchase of an item should be required to be included in the price. You can't say the mouse pad costs $0.10 and charge $2.00 handling for each one.

    I just bought a snow blower from Home Depot the other day. I got up to the register and they rung it up for $15 more than I was quoted for it. I asked and they said it was a non-optional assembly fee. I don't understand how a non-optional fee can be separated from the price.
  • by Cyno ( 85911 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:38PM (#7631651) Journal
    This stealth inflation really must be true..

    Half a million for the birth of two healthy boys? Just think humans used to do that for free. :)

    Times really have changed and money has no value. What does a million mean to you?

    Absolute destruction of all past and future income? You act as if that's a bad thing.

    Look, I'd rather die than live a long life in this system of metrics, insurance and taxes. I know how much people like you love paying bills and managing your coins, but its not worth having 2.5 kids and a dog for me. I would rather not bring an innocent child into a fucked up world like this. You can have your capitalism and eat it too.
  • by DingoTango ( 623217 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:41PM (#7631685)
    Even the delivery people screw you now. We recently ordered a pizza deal (2 Large for $13.99) and when the orderer got off the phone, he calmly announced that the total was $20 and change. Huh? I asked him to call back whereupon we discovered (whoops!) the total was actually $17 (since we also ordered a 2 liter).
    Let's see... $3 extra on $17. Yep. They tacked on 17.5% (a tip?) without mentioning it.

    On another day, we ordered some chinese food. Food arrived, I looked at the bill, and there was an extra $1 charge on there for absolutely no reason, which the delivery person could not explain, could not reduce, but he definitely said it was normal and no big deal. We'll, that amount was neatly deducted from his tip, in front of him (since I figured it was a delivery fee anyway, no need to pay for the same thing twice).

    When I got my final, cancellation bill for my SBC home phone line (advertised for $29.99 monthly, but actually cost over $55.00), they added a cancellation fee of $97.95 for the privilege of disconnecting the line. huh? So I called the phone company to dispute the charge. These people delayed, deferred, and disputed my claims. Initially they said that I was free to dispute the claim, which they noted in my billing record, but that I would still continue to get bills for it. (Net result: nothing).

    I had to indicate that I wanted resolution that day, so I made the customer service rep prove to me that I had agreed to a cancellation charge at the time that I had ordered the service. She made many false claims, about notices being on my bill, or on my welcome packet, etc, but when I had her check the archives of my billing records... surprise! I had no cancellation charges listed in my service agreement. Got $97.95 credited and it cost me about an hour of time.

    All you have to do is be persistent.
  • by malsdavis ( 542216 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:46PM (#7631741)
    As a European I always find it amazing how Americans put up with forced surcharges, tips, service fees etc.

    Surely the price of the goods/service should be the one on the label, not what it says on
    the label + tax + tip etc.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:50PM (#7631826)

    I recently did battle with Sprint over a billing error. I fought and fought with them for months. Eventually I convinced them that if their fraudulant billing were exposed to a larger audience, that more irritating bastards like me would be hounding their accounting department.

    I got a free years worth of phone service and long distance to keep my mouth shut and go away. It just ran out. I say give it a go, they're wrong and they know it.

  • Well... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by virg_mattes ( 230616 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:56PM (#7631959)
    > One day everyone who sells on the web will work out that shipping should be free and absorbed into the cost of running the business. Do businesses bill you for the electricity they used in preparing your order?

    Well, yes, they do, they just don't itemize it. How do you think they determine prices? Any business that doesn't consider sunk and processing costs when setting prices quickly goes out of business. But more to the point, why shouldn't you pay for the electricity they used preparing your order?

    Virg
  • Re:Grocery Stores (Score:3, Interesting)

    by netringer ( 319831 ) <.maaddr-slashdot. .at. .yahoo.com.> on Thursday December 04, 2003 @04:06PM (#7632117) Journal
    I noticed the #2 chain here doing an intentional scam.

    Example: They had a promotion for a basket of strawberries for 99 cents. The display in produce had a huge sign above touting the sale. Under the sign was a bit of empty space and baskets of premium strawberries priced at $4.00 a basket. The first time I grabbed the basket under the sign and when I noticed that the price didn't match the sign I told the cashier, who said she would credit the price and literally, "...if you're not lying." (Once again they fail to realize who is a customer and who is thief.)

    On later trips I noticed that it was fairly standard to see the premium choice stocked directly under the "On Special" sign with none of the "on sale" version there. It wasn't an oversight. It was intentional to catch shoppers who don't pay attention.

  • by bogie ( 31020 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @04:23PM (#7632337) Journal
    According to them they are not responsible for the actual products they sell. Boy, long way we've come since store owners actually stood behind the products they sold.

    From their FAQ:

    "What about restocking fees? How much? When? Why?

    There is a restocking fee of 15% on all returns for refund, unless waived by our Customer Support Agent. Newegg is not responsible for manufacturer defects. We are not manufacturers. We are willing to replace a defective item. If a refund is requested instead of a replacement we will charge a 15% restocking fee. Why? Claiming "defective" is the easy way out of a restocking fee just because you don't want the item. If it's defective we will replace it (rma type repair)."

    Total horsecrap that they make you a deviant just for buying from them. That whole thing at the end where they say you would just be "claiming" defective is fucking bullshit. You should be able to return a defective product for a return from anywhere. If its defective then you should be able to escape the sales contract completely. Newegg tacking on a 15% fee is beyond wrong. I guarantee they make a mint screwing customers like that.

    So if your buying from newegg.com be warned. If you realize that the product you bought is not only defective but subpar in general be prepared to bend over. I dont support them anymore and neither should you. It's bad enough being nailed for return shipping on a defective product, read the policies carefully so stores like Newegg don't rape you on restocking fees as well.
  • Re:Mmm... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by cayenne8 ( 626475 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @04:33PM (#7632460) Homepage Journal
    "What really pisses me off though are ATM fees. They're not even as bad here (yet) as they are in some places. Not only do I get dinged (for 2, 3, 4 bucks) at the ATM, I also get dinged an extra buck by my bank if I use an "out-of-network" ATM"

    Dude....you need to go look for a new bank. I never bank at a place that doesn't give 'free checking', and free ATM usage for their own machines.

    Whenever I move, I bank shop till I find one I like with these deals...and go with them. Out of the good ones...I drive around and see which one has the most ATM's...

    It has to be a real emergency before I'll use an out of network ATM, it chaps my ass too hard to 'pay for the use' of my own money. I generally refuse to do so. Anyway, lots of banks out there, go shop for a better deal...

  • Double billing (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Garwulf ( 708651 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @04:45PM (#7632650) Homepage
    The worst practice I've come across is double billing. I got hit with this one around February and March, as the power was deregulated. Around that time, the price of electricity was also capped after some people had a very hard time with soaring electrical bills.

    The cap goes into action, and I get a bill that is about double what I expect. When I look over it, I realize that I've been billed twice for the same electricity. I complain about it, and I'm told that it was a mistake because of the cap, and that it will be credited to my next bill.

    The next bill comes, and the charge is still there, and earning interest. I'm now at the point of having to manually calculate my bills (partially because when the cap went into effect, the utilities company took about three months to adjust their billing system), complaining every couple of months, and even writing the occasional letter regarding these errors.

    And then, in October, I get a notice that because of my debit, I have to pay what I owe ASAP or they will require a deposit. Let's just say I didn't take this well. After calming down, I wrote them a polite letter where I pointed out that you cannot bill somebody twice for the same electricity, enclosed a copy of the bill where the mistake first appeared, and requested a meeting within two days.

    The bill was corrected the next day, and both the double billing and the interest it had accrued were removed. I swear, though, if they had charged me a deposit fee, I would have gone to my lawyer and sued their asses. Nobody screws around with me like that and gets away with it.
  • by nolife ( 233813 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @04:50PM (#7632725) Homepage Journal
    In theory, that should work. In reality, the letter opener person on the other end will probably toss your bill in the can. I've wondered about the same thing with EULA's and contracts. Imagine changing terms in a credit card contract you get in the mail. Changing the interest rate, the late fees, etc, putting your initials on all changes, signing the contract and mailing it back the postage prepaid envelope. In theory.. By them sending you a card, they would have had to agree to the ammended contract and you should be bound by those terms. A contract is an agreement between two parties. Do you really think that would work? Legally, it should but I doubt it would.
  • by CGP314 ( 672613 ) <CGP@ColinGregor y P a lmer.net> on Thursday December 04, 2003 @06:23PM (#7633546) Homepage
    I've had an interesting experience with credit cards that's sort of related. In high school I got a $200 limit credit card. Never missed a payment. Fast forward two years and I miss my first payment. Three days later they increased my limit to $500. Odd, I thought, but I wrote it off as a strange coincidence. A year or so later I missed another payment, and within the week, I got a letter saying that my new limit was $1,000.
  • by C10H14N2 ( 640033 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @06:38PM (#7633692)
    Well, at 29 years old complaining of chest pain, I was given a toxicology panel, several EKGs, a trip into the MRI, a heart catheter, a shitload of morphine, several in-patient days in a telemetry unit and a $27,000 bill. None of this was at my request. All of it was on medical advice. ...and then I was sent home on a mega-dose of ibuprophen. The real rub? I started taking it on my own just prior to going to the hospital. The only real benefit I got for that $27,000 was the knowledge of the true safe dosage. Actually, the morphine was good shit, man, but still. Now, I realize that "it could have been something much worse." Sure. However, as half the country earns less than $27,000 per year, it should NOT under any circumstances cost an entire years' salary to determine that you need to take an Advil, even if it's a really fucking big Advil.
  • Stealth Payroll tax (Score:3, Interesting)

    by McFly777 ( 23881 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @06:42PM (#7633732) Homepage
    For those who don't know, there is an even worse "stealth tax" in the US that has been around for approx 70 years....

    Its called Payroll Withholding.

    If you look on your paycheck, you will see some of it, but what you don't know is that you are only looking at half of the withholding collected. Your employer "matches" the amount that is reported on you payroll slip, but just like the S&H this is really paid by you because it is money that your employer could be paying you!

    Think of it this way. When you are hired, your employer's accountants figure that you cost $80/hr. You of course are only being paid $50/hr. You pay $15 in withholding from your $50 paycheck (netting $35), so your employer sees you like this:

    $50 wage + $15 withholding(by employer) + $15 overhead= $80 cost of employee.
    (The $15 overhead is for insurance, pension, unemployment, etc.)

    The employer is willing to hire you for that $80/hr, so if he weren't paying that $15 match, he would have been willing to pay you $65/hr.

    This was done intentionally when the income tax was started, because FDR knew that people would get upset if they saw the true cost of the tax on their pay stubs. Now everybody is used to thinking in terms of the NET amount on their check, not even the Gross amount shown, so they certanly don't think about what they aren't shown.

    This is also why when you are self-employed you have to pay "self-employment" taxes; they are really just the "employer match" half that you don't see as an employee.

  • by payndz ( 589033 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @07:17PM (#7634115)
    I was once lucky enough to go on a junket to LA as part of a visit to Warner Bros. All expenses paid, yadda yadda. The hotel I was staying at was the Mondrian, which if you haven't heard of it (which to be honest I hadn't before going) is a multiple-star, high-rolling place. (The trendy Skybar where George Clooney is fond of a tipple is part of it and I had pointed out to me some apparently famous person who I didn't recognise - one of TLC, I think - in the lobby.)

    Very nice place, it had to be said. The room - well, suite - I was staying in was the size of my flat back home.

    The problems came when it was time to check out. Although Warners were paying the basic expenses, additional ones (phone calls, room service, etc) were expected to be covered by us.

    Now, I hadn't touched the minibar (there was a convenience store just down the street for booze and snacks), the premium cable had been left alone because Warners had taken me out every night, I had no girlfriend (hey, I'm a /. reader!) so there hadn't been any phone calls, I hadn't made any calls for room service, I hadn't connected my laptop to the internet, I hadn't thrown the TV out of the window or taken a big shit in the middle of the living room requiring special cleaning... hell, I even left a decent tip.

    Go to reception to check out? I'm handed a bill for $95 dollars of assorted 'additional services'.

    Needless to say, I went ballistic and all the charges magically vanished. But it was a lesson in how places like that operate. They obviously assume that guests have all their expenses met by somebody else, so couldn't care less if a wodge of charges are added to the bill.

    Now, I know that if I'd presented those expenses to *my* employer expecting them to be paid, they would have laughed in my face and told me to fuck off...

  • by Malc ( 1751 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @07:31PM (#7634259)
    Indeed. A recent study in the New England Journal of Medicine indicates that administration costs in the US are over $1,000/capita, and in Canada $300/capita. This explains a large part of the 4% GDP difference between the US and Canada. The US insurance companies spend a huge amount of money on administrators whose job it is to deny insurance or investigate claims.
  • by aquarian ( 134728 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @08:01PM (#7634474)
    Household Bank, a major player in the screw-the-poor subprime market, has been caught for this kind of thing. But I've heard stories of even worse.

    A friend of mine is a financial planner, and now whistleblower. She's brought several of these sleazy operators into court and won.

    A couple of her clients with recent bankruptcies have Household Bank credit cards. They're always having problems with web payments or automatic debits going through, being assessed usurous late fees, and then overlimit fees when the late fees put them over their suddenly-lowered limit. My friend suspects these "problems" are carefully programmed into the system, and has been gathering evidence to support this. So if anyone from Household is reading, we're on to you!
  • fraudulent charges (Score:2, Interesting)

    by evilWurst ( 96042 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @08:33PM (#7634718) Journal
    I discovered a few days ago that this very thing has been happening to me for the past year and a half. I'd noticed my cell phone bill slooowly creeping up - however, the creep was entirely under a section named "federal fees".

    Turns out that was a lie, and it wasn't taxes going up. I found this out by the surprise letter I got from the lawyers running the class action suit against the phone company.

    I cancelled my service the next day (I'd already been about to do it because I never use the phone). They'd pumped me for about $40 extra over that year, and probably every one of their other customers.
  • by KiDas ( 669016 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @10:03PM (#7635290)
    In each of my last 3 jobs I've had this happen. Each time our company would be on a specific plan/rate and at somepoint the rates would change on the bills and we would get way overbilled to the tune of thousands of dollars.

    When I would call up the phone company (ATT mostly) they would say oh, there must be some mistake and they would promptly change it back and credit the amount. Now from my understanding of the the way software is made, especially billing software, there usually aren't random variables or functions programmed in that change options on an account. I mean how does the fixed rate change on an account seemingly randomly. I've had it happen too many times at work as well as at home to smell foul play. My guess was that somewhere high up the programed the system to change rates to random accounts and told their reps that if there was ever a problem just to fix it quickly without a fuss. Or maybe they just have someone doing it manually, but that would be a lot of accounts to be messing with.

    There are thousands of companies out there that don't even check some bills over for consistency, especially ones from "reputable" companies like ATT. I hope to hell something like this is proven and these scamming phone companies (and other companies) are given what they deserve.

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