ReplayTV Price Drop Bait-and-Switch 308
jkeyes writes "Last week on 12/17 DNNA (new parent company of Replay TV) decided to drop the Replay TV 5504 model down to $149, yet the boxes and website said that it came with three years free service. So immediately it appeared on deal sites like FatWallet with Replay telling people on the phone who called that yes all 5504 models include 3 years of service so immediately Circuit City & Amazon sold out. Then on the 12/22 DNNA released a press release annoucing the new price and claiming that the 5504 models NO LONGER have 3 years free with them and blamed the retailers for dropping the price too soon. Even though their own Customer Service Reps were saying when it first dropped that you got 3 years free. Also to add to the issue the actual devices have giant green stickers on them saying Three Years Free AND a paper inside telling you this. Replay went on to say that if you had a problem with this or your replay was deactivated to just return it to the retailer you purchased it from."
Get a Tivo (Score:5, Interesting)
Tivo phone customer service not much better (Score:2, Interesting)
I for one am sick of things like this... (Score:5, Interesting)
A few weeks ago I attempted to purchase the Dell Axim x3i when it went on sale for $79. Dell took down the website and then put it back up. For those of you who know, this particular Axim actually runs for $379. Maybe it was a pricing mistake but when Dell left the page up, I thought they would send out the system. Didn't happen. In the days following our cancelled orders, Dell gave all sorts of rubbish answers to cover up the issue. Some people actually got their Axims, most others did not. The last story we heard was the deal was not a mistake but for corporate customers. I guess I was pretty irrate that I had ten different reasons for not getting my Axim and they all sounded like lies.
More recently, Circuit City was offering three rebates on a particular hard drive. However, the third rebate would not print so a 160gb drive which would have cost between $30-$40 actually cost double that. Bait and switch? You better believe it. The rebate house said that even if the third rebate printed, they would not honor it because they needed the original UPCs for all of them.
Now after the black friday sales and the dozens of rebates I have out, I am getting emails from rebate houses declining to give my money back to me for silly reasons like "date not on reciept". Although the date *IS* on the reciept. I guess what I am trying to say is that I am just tired of dealing with these deals and rebates since businesses are acting like crooks by not keeping their end of the bargain. I mean, if they really wanted to give us a rebate, why not just take it off at the register? I really hope a class action lawsuit or two is launched by consumers in the next few months over one of the rebate/bait-and-switch issues so business get back in line.
maybe the FTC or various states attorneys general (Score:4, Interesting)
People knew it was too good to be true... (Score:1, Interesting)
Maybe there were a few people who honestly thought they were getting 3 years of service, but for most people, they were just hoping to get through a loophole. RePlay changed their priceing plan from paying around $500 for the device and 3 years service, to $150 for the device with service additional. There were still some old stock units sold with the old packaging saying it including the pricing, but anyone who knows anything about DVR's could figure out what happened. The people who bought them were hoping RePlay wouldn't realize they had paid the lower price, and they got caught.
I don't think RePlay did anything wrong, except poor communication with their retailers in terms of getting them to explain that it didn't come with service. But if you don't want to pay for service, you can return it and you are back where you started from, nothing lost. As far as dishonesty, there were people on FW advocating calling up RePlay and lying about how much they paid for it or when they bought it in the hopes of getting free service. That isn't dishonest?
I bought a RePlay months ago, before this happened (a 5060) and love it. Great device, network ready out of the box, works great. My roomate has one too, and it's cool to be able to watch shows off each other's units.
Re:I for one am sick of things like this... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Buying a TiVo, ReplayTV, or other (Score:2, Interesting)
Here is some kind of devkit [tivo.com], tho it appears to be for the Home Media Option end of things.
IANAProgrammer... But Tivo (series 1) runs linux on a PowerPC processor. I know enough about unix and linux to know that each flavor has a few "tweaks" that may not carry from flavor to flavor. So once you figure out those tweaks on Tivo's linux, then you should be able to develop using standard linux development tools. If you hit the Tivo Community Forum or the Deal Database forums you can find hundreds, if not thousands, of applications written to run on the Tivo.
And, under certian conditions, you can still use your Tivo without a subscription. It becomes exactly a digital VCR. It doesn't have any guide data or anything that makes it as useful as it is when subscribed.
Most Tivo loyalists don't like to talk about it, but there are ways to load 3rd party guide data onto your unsubb'ed Tivo.
So, if one is that hardcore, they can buy the Tivo, add a NIC, and get their own guide data loaded. All while never paying a monthly fee.
Stealth Inflation Hits Again (Score:2, Interesting)
While I could see a class action brewing through this, my recommendation would be to seek the assistance of your state attorney general and utilize the consumer protections statutes available to counter this kind of bait and switch. Alternatively, you can also use Deceptive Trade Practices (DTPA in Texas) which allows successfull parties to recover treble (triple) damages from defendants. Keeps the class action attorneys from making the real money, and puts the justice in the pocket of the consumer. Plus, if the company gets hammered all across the country, the bad press will be more than any PR firm can get them out of - see if they are around next Christmas....
Lastly, if the attorney general won't prosecute (becuase they have been defanged by the Bush/Conservative/Victorian era deregulation crowd) you can always call your local TV consumer reporter and get them to make a stink with the retailer you bought it from....
Sort of makes me glad I don't have cable or anything else - just DVDs and Rabbit Ears!!
Merry Xmas!!
TiVo on Bresnan (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:They stick by their promise (Score:1, Interesting)
Replay TV is Amazing, in spite of marketing idiots (Score:1, Interesting)
I've recommended Replay to my friends, most of whom now have one, I've bought them for family members. None of us have ever had any technical issues with any of them. However, a certain proportion of any electronic device is going to fail, I know of people with failed Tivo's and most any other electronic brand.
As for the utter stupidity of this pricing change, it just shows that Dennon (Replay's owner) marketing people have absolutely no clue regarding the consumer electronics channel. Quite obviously all of their retailers didn't screw this up at the same time. This is definitely Dennon's fault. They almost certainly sent out misleading or faulty information to their retail supply chain. This is a boondoggle of tremendous proportions.
Why didn't they just eat the fees and give everyone a lifetime supplied Replay for the discount price of $150? Doing some rough math, if they had 20,000 units in the retail channel (a fair guess), it would have cost the struggling Replay unit a $6 million dollar charge. The marketing manager should be fired either way, but taking a 6 million dollar charge is not the sort of thing tiny electronics companies (compared to Sony, Panasonic, etc.) can afford to do.
However, I have very little sympathy for the initial poster or the other whiners in this thread. Sure, I enjoy the "killer deal" as much as anyone, I'm a charter member of Fatwallet. But I don't whine when these deals don't pan out. This is just like the hundreds of other "killer deals" posted on Fatwallet each year, Some of them pan out, most of them don't. Everyone who bought this in reading about in on a "Hot Deals" site, knew it was a too-good-to-be-true deal, and should just return the unit, get all of their money back and move along to the next one.
All that aside, just because Replay has some complete idiots making their marketing decisions doesn't mean their boxes are bad or the company is evil. The boxes work wonderfully and do amazing things, I'd take one over a Tivo any day of the week. I'd also take a Replay over those clunky, expensive roll-your-own PVR's. Replay TV's are just good, solid devices that work out of the box.
My oldest Replay has been running 24/7 for over 4 years without a single problem, ever.
Actual business reason to do this (Score:5, Interesting)
Sure they will accept returns, that way it doesn't become a legal issue.
A good reason why they (and maybe other manufactorers) did this is to boost this years financial numbers.
The units are sold in December this year and will not be returned until January next year. (its not going to be earlier since they were given as gifts and no store is going to accept returns until the new year)
This year they moved 1000 more units -> bean counter happy, people get bonuses. So what if they get 700 units returned, they have until December next year to make up for it.
Re:Poor manufacturing, but still far superior to T (Score:2, Interesting)
DVArchive? (Score:3, Interesting)
However, I'm rather concerned about it. The website, although hosted on sourceforge offers no source code and repeated attempts to contact the author have been ignored. He's allegedly planning a rewrite of some kind, which is fine, I just want the source for the older version.
Is anyone a developer for DVArchive or have access to the source? This is not at all an insult to DVArchive or its developers, it's a great program, but in the spirit of its license, I'd really like to see the source code.
Re:Hmm.. (Score:2, Interesting)
So there you go - the Microsoft of PVRs is pretty decent.
Re:Get 'em in small claims court (Score:3, Interesting)
As others may have said, Replay told retailers to remove the 3-year stickers, etc before dropping the price on all current inventory. CC and Radio Shack didn't bother to do this, and didn't update their websites either. Replay had set the price change for around Dec 20th; CC and Radio Shack (to get extra Xmas sales I assume) jumped the gun and did it about a week early. That's not Replay's fault. And the reps called to ask about the price answered correctly so far as they knew - the retailers were supposed to wait to change the price and the terms.
All those FatWallet-ers who bought the units knew it was an unintentional mistake (and probably knew it was the retailer's mistake). They figured they were getting something for nothing (effectively).
Basically, Replay is getting screwed over here by CC and the Shack (who also screwed themselves). Many of those units (bought by FW-ers) will be returned, and have to be sold eventually as refurbs or open-box units. (Earlier this year, Replay sold refurbs with lifetime service for ~$300 (service was $250 then)).
CC and RS are telling Replay "cancel the activation on these serial numbers, we sold them without service, then send us a check" since CC/RS paid for that inventory when it did include service, but they now sold it at the new, lower price without it. CC & RS are the ones who are claiming they sold it without service, but didn't so mark all of the units.
BTW, my understanding is that most or all the units in the Radio Shack stores had stickers on them that said "Service Fee required for use" etc. Read the FW/etc posts (if you care to wade through 10000 messages) - people bought them anyways at $150 and figured they scored when they initially came up as "fee paid" - until RS told them to turn it off.
Disclaimer: My wife and I own two ReplayTV 5040's, one upgraded to 160GB, and they've totally changed our TV-watching habits. Once you use one, you won't go back. And their network capability is wonderful, as is DVArchive (which allows you to move shows to, or watch shows from, the PC's harddisk). DVArchive is also totally happy running on Linux, BTW.
PVRs need a better revenue model (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not sure what that is, but perhaps selling more and more compelling software options, more widely licensed software to consumer electronics resellers, broader marketing of usage info (yes, I know the tin hats will go batty here...).
I love my Tivo, but it's a an extremely expensive device when you factor in the box and the lifetime, especially against CATV-provided PVRs, which can be had for as little as $5 per month in some areas. Yes, I'm aware they suck compared to Tivo, but it's a non-investment that doesn't *have* to be perfect for many people.
The Direct TV Tivos appear much cheaper, but that's if you want to invest in Satellite and can get a signal (I can't, so its a moot point).
Re:Get 'em in small claims court (Score:3, Interesting)
When Replay decided to change their model, the retailer took the option of selling the units without the activation for $150, and getting a check back from Replay for circa $200 (on their old stock). When they made that deal, it was incumbent on them to sell them without activation in order to get the check from Replay. They (CC) sold some of them (not all) without telling the consumer that the activation had been removed, but they then went and told Replay (or had already told Replay) that those units had been sold without activation.
It doesn't matter what's sealed in the box if the retailer (correctly) tells you that the deal is different. The retailer changed the deal, but didn't tell (all) the consumers. Replay has no direct knowledge of which consumers the retailer sold to under the old model or the new model, it only knows that CC told Replay that all those units (at $150) were sold without activation.
Note again that some CC's correctly marked them, and others marked them sometime during the day. Also note that most Radio Shacks correctly marked them _and_ the boxes had stickers that said activation required.
Circuit City screwed up, bigtime. One way or another, they're liable (though perhaps only to refund purchasers their money, perhaps to Replay (i.e. circuit city doesn't get the $250ish from Replay, and Replay provides the service that CC sold them)).
CC will probably claim it can't determine which people were told and which weren't, and so will probably only offer to refund people's $150ish in exchange for the units back.
The seller is not a 3rd party to the sale, they're a 1st party. They are not merely an agent for Replay; they buy inventory from Replay, then sell that to consumers. Replay can't tell them to mark the stock down and remove the activation, and Replay can't go in and demand they change the stickers. Replay can make a deal with the retailer, though, for the retailer to remove the activation and get paid by Replay when they sell it or when the user activates it, etc. In that case, it's incumbent on the retailer to live up to that bargain, and so inform the buyers of what they're buying.
Remember, when you buy something in a store you're buying it from the retailer. The manufacturer has a requirement to honor the deal they sold it to the retailer under - but in this case the retailer and the manufacturer agreed to a new deal that involved the retailer remarking the unsold stock, and the retailer screwed it up.
The phone reps at Replay couldn't know that CC has screwed up, nor that CC had jumped the gun and dropped the price early.
You stated that Replay "did NOT tell them to take off the markings". There is considerable evidence that they did, but that CC didn't do a good job of getting the website people and all the store managers involved in getting word out and remarking the shelves/stock.