RIAA Takes the Fight to the Streets 1011
Lapzilla writes "In an article from LA Weekly, it would appear the RIAA has taken their fight to the streets. Wearing jackets with "RIAA" emblazoned upon them, they have taken to busting street vendors in an FBI fashion for selling bootleg CDs and DVDs."
the riaa is breaking the law here (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Cool... (Score:3, Interesting)
Can they really do this? (Score:5, Interesting)
is that legal? it sounds shady (Score:4, Interesting)
obviously trying to scare and confuse people into signing over their goods. who knows what else they got them to sign. ugh! It's clear they don't give a crap how the public views them, most companies would not treat their customers like this.
'bout time (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Utter havoc. (Score:2, Interesting)
Congress, that's who (and by extension, you). Making/downloading copies is one thing, but actually making and selling illegal copies is something else entirely. The RIAA would have to get a court order to actually sieze anything that was not voluntarily given up, but if it was pirated they would have a right to do so. You'll also note that the EFF actually supports this activity by the RIAA, as opposed to the harassment of file-sharers.
Seriously (Score:5, Interesting)
How is this not a mob? Extortion? Impersonating a police officer? Harassment? Vandalism? I'd like to see the people involed with this arrested and held accountable for the numerous felonies they're committing!
Sir Giuliani's horsemen (Score:3, Interesting)
Possible arrest for Impersonating an Officer? (Score:5, Interesting)
Seems to me there's a racist element here... (Score:5, Interesting)
"A large percentage [of the vendors] are of a Hispanic nature," Langley said. "Today he's Jose Rodriguez, tomorrow he's Raul something or other, and tomorrow after that he's something else. These people change their identity all the time. A picture's worth a thousand words."
WTF? THESE PEOPLE? Is it just me or does it seem that these guys are trying to prey on immigrant (illegal or otherwise) fears of police authority?
I'd like to see some sort of study of how many people are out hawking pirated wares, broken down by race, versus the race breakdown for the people the RIAA are busting. I know it doesn't matter because they're not actually imposing any authority, but it would be interesting to see the Hispanic community's reaction to the above quotation, and those numbers.
Violations (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh, let's count!
And this, my friends, is why, no matter how much we hate them, everyone should have the right to hire an attorney. Otherwise you only get the legal rights they tell you you have.
A Public Relations Dumb-Ass (Score:5, Interesting)
Wow, I hope that quote gets plastered in the paper all around the country. How they let this joker talk to anybody in the press is beyond me. 'These people'... America is not real tolerant of those kinds of statements these days.
-t
Re:Utter havoc. (Score:3, Interesting)
Would I have a right to raid a local chop-shop if my car were stolen? I always assumed that's what the POLICE were for. In light of these new developments, however, I'm considering forming a vigilante justice team. Why not? What's the difference?
Damon,
Re:Cool... (Score:5, Interesting)
Sting the RIAA? In a format you know and love! (Score:4, Interesting)
2. When the RIAA thugs come around, video tape the RIAA taking your legal property.
3. Sue and...Profit!
Try and get some non RIAA music confiscated too. Extra ammo.
Sounds like a wonderful lawsuit to me. We'll call it 'The Shoe is on the Other Foot in your Mouth' case.
RIAA better be carefull (Score:1, Interesting)
hidden agenda (Score:4, Interesting)
Here's the most relevant statutes: (Score:5, Interesting)
California Penal Code, Section 538d.:
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that wearing uniforms that resemble generic law enforcement uniforms but are not direct imitations of official uniforms is illegal. Basically, if you aren't using a fake badge or a damn good copy of an official police uniform, I think you can get out of this one under California law. Then, there's the US Code to consider:
As long as they're careful not to represent themselves as being a federal employee, they haven't violated this law either. In other words, it's going to be hard to nail them for crimes unless they do something stupid that's not covered under their little "voluntary" contract that people must sign -- so long as said contract holds up in court as not being signed under duress. Considering that the new RIAA head is from the BATF, I'm pretty sure he's savvy about skirting the laws holding back law enforcement officers as much as possible.
Re:Scary stuff... (Score:3, Interesting)
Why is this any different to what the RIAA did? Oh yes, we would only be impersonating the police by proxy.
Re:How to fight the RIAA... if you ever need to (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Time to get to work... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Cool... (Score:5, Interesting)
If you break into the RIAA headquarters, and they hold you there until the police arrive, it's probably legal. But if they randomly run around -- in public or, better yet, on your private property -- pretending to be the police, it's suddenly a blatant felony.
Batman's Helpers (Score:3, Interesting)
There's a highly insightful recent Matthew Scudder short story by Lawrence Block, "Batman's Helpers", about the private IP rent-a-cops who roust street vendors and confiscate their merchandise in NYC. The story has been reprinted widely; Google for details. I admire Block for tackling this obscure (to most) topic.
pirates are all at sea (Score:3, Interesting)
"They tried to scare me," Borrayo said. "They told me, 'You're a pirate!' I said, 'C'mon, guys, pirates are all at sea. I just work in a parking lot.' "
Cautionary novel about this: Noir (Score:2, Interesting)
From an amazon reviewer: "The penalty for selling someone else's intellectual property in Jeter's world is to have one's brain and spinal cord forcefully removed and placed on life support. The offender's still-living, still-aware neural tissue is then used to make stereo cables or to control small household appliances for the personal amusement of the artist or author that was wronged."
Obviously not what we have here, but maybe a cautionary tale, in the vein of 1984 and a brave new world. The rest of the book isn't bad either, sort of a film noir book merged with bladerunner...
Re:Time to get to work... (Score:5, Interesting)
You're missing the point, I think.
The problem isn't with the intent, per se, the problem is with the RIAA's methods - a bunch of ex-cops in RIAA jackets go up to a guy selling stuff on the street raid-style, scare the shit outta him, make him sign a "They didn't do anything illegal, honest, my goods were given over voluntarily" document and confiscate their discs. They have no right to do this. They're not police or an authority designated by the government, they're pinkertons hired by the RIAA to enforce their rules. This is wholeheartedly illegal (impersonating a police officer, etc.)
I'm all for the taking down of the major bootleggers, but this is utterly criminal. These people have zero authority to enforce any laws, anywhere. It's a PR blitz that will hopefully backfire.
Triv
Re:Cool... (Score:4, Interesting)
Right on. How much do want to bet that using this tactic, the RIAA harasses a disproportinate percentage of non-whites?
Re:Seriously... (Score:3, Interesting)
That would be so awesome. Better yet...make BSA jackets, too!
Re:hidden agenda (Score:4, Interesting)
anyone else noticed that the entire campaign to get new laws to aid their "war" against their customers will result in the STATE paying to investigate and prosecute copyright violations rather than the copyright owner?
Yes, we have noticed. When the MPAA was trying to push the SDMCA through the Tennessee legislature last year, we all caught on to the fact that they were simply trying to burden the state with doing investigative work for what would otherwise be a civil action. The language of the bill actually required the DA to investigate and subsequently prosecute (if appropriate) anyone the cable company said was stealing service.
One of our primary oppositions was that we barely have enough cash to run the state as it is, we don't need to find more things to pay for...
Blam! Blam! (Score:4, Interesting)
It's a shame that weapons laws in higher-density cities aren't like those in Arizona, where anyone can carry openly, and people can carry concealed with a fairly easy to acquire permit. I could just see a bunch of thugs in RIAA jackets walking up to a street vendor, start harassing him, only to watch the vendor pull out a couple of 9mm's and blow them all away...
Remember, the burden of proof of copyright violation is supposed to be on the copyright holder, and must be proved before a court of law. A bunch of dudes walking up aren't technically allowed to force anything more than a served subpoena.
Not only Police Impersonation - Outright Theft (Score:2, Interesting)
From the article: "Figuring the disks were bootlegs, a four-man RIAA squad ... persuaded [him] to hand over voluntarily a total of 78 disks."
"No, no Your Honor - I'm not a bank robber! Figuring the money in that bank was all counterfeit, I simply persuaded the teller to voluntarily hand over all the money."
Re:PR Side Effects. (Score:5, Interesting)
- Impersonating a Police Officer
- Robbery
- Extortion
- False Arrest
- Racketeering
- Conspiricy to commit all of the above
- Deriving profit from an ongoing criminal enterprise (RICO)
Sounds like a nice little list of felonies. Hopefully some civic-minded FBI agent will recognize this for what it is and arrest the RIAA leadership under the RICO act and seize all their (personal and business) assets.Re:Cool... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Time to get to work... (Score:1, Interesting)
What makes me queasy is the confrontation aspect, the deceptive credentials, trying to make themselves look like cops. We do *not* need privatized law enforcement in this country.
About citizen's arrest (Score:3, Interesting)
[prairielaw.com]
Click here for one view. This shows that is is legal to detain someone and take them to the proper authorities.
However this link [yahoo.com] indicates that taking this kind of action may expose you to lawsuits for assult, and you should just report the crime.
The problem is that with the RIAA it may have never gotten this far. They did not attempt to detain the guy or take him down to the station or even report him. They just threated him and he signed over his property. What would be more interesting to see is how the RIAA reacts if the person refuses all their requests. What would they do?
A. Report the person to the police.
B. Do A. but put him in cuffs wait for the police.
C. Drag the guy down to the police station.
If they just did A there would certainly be no problem, but B or C could be questionable especially if they go ahead and take away the CD's and DVD without permission. I am sure once the word gets out that they aren't real cops that they will be challenged in a hurry.
Re:Cool... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm no lawyer. Ingest with salt as needed.
I know that Florida, at least, extends limited deputy police powers to state-certified loss-prevention agents. They can and will detain you. By force if needed. Other states require bonds, more intensive training classes, and may refer to it by a different name, but you can bet that if you are detained by a security guard, he's allowed to do so.
Now the big stores are terrified of the liability risks so they are very careful about using these powers. They will "ask" you to step into the back (probably in an asshole-coplike-voice), and "ask" to look in your bag. If you say you're not going into the back then said guard has got to make a judgement call -- does he have a sufficient chain of evidence to protect himself and his boss in the event of a lawsuit?
In most cases that would run like this: seeing you take and/or conceal the item -- ideally on camera. Then following them with cameras and/or floor agents to confirm you didn't have a reasonable chance of dropping the item -- if there's a visible bulge from the item, so much the better. Next, they want to see you bypass a point of sale and attempt to exit the store to prevent the "I just tucked it in my pocket so I could flip through that magazine with both hands" defense. If they've got all that, their asses are covered in detaining you.
As a side note, even if they've got all of that on you, they may or may not decide to chase you if you pull a runner. These guys are there to keep the company from losing money, not to keep people from shoplifting. If you're snatching a cheap item, you're probably not worth the risk of a chase. The company would much rather write off a pack of gum than have to pay for hip surgery on the little old lady their guard slammed into while trying to catch you. If you run, run through the parking lot, not along the sidewalk -- the company doesn't want higher insurance premiums 'cause their guards keep getting hit by cars, and will instruct the guards not to chase through the parking lot. If you run, get off their property ASAP -- they almost certainly do not have hot-pursuit powers...
Finally, if you absolutely must not get caught (like you've got an outstanding warrant or are on probation or whatever) claim to be armed. There's no way a security guard's going to subject himself or the customers to gunfire. Depending on where you are that might be enough for an assault with a deadly weapon charge though, so it's probably not too wise.
RIAA prob doesn't represent artists confiscated (Score:5, Interesting)
They might have a contractual basis for enforcing copyright violations by their member organizations (i.e., Sony and Warner). The have NO basis for enforcing copyright violations by other publishers.
For the RIAA jack-booted thugs to enforce for labels or artists they don't represent is the same as you or I enforcing, on behalf of someone else. There's just no basis. Under the copyright law (US Title 17 USC [cornell.edu], it's the infringed party that needs to pursue action -- not ANY party, and generally not even law enforcement (at least for garden variety copyright infringement....the feds get called in for fraud, for when banks are involved, and other cases).
In the LA Times article, the only title specifically mentioned was some sort of Latino hits from the 70s and 80s. Chances are that material is not represented by the RIAA. At a community radio station [wxdu.org] I worked with, the music directors decided not to put any RIAA member music on the play list. Know what? It turned out 80% was not, already! The other 20% wasn't painful at all - it was just a matter of putting it on another shelf, rather than the playlist shelf.
In short, there is a LOT of music that is not represented by the RIAA (a far higher proportion than video that's not represented by the MPAA). They have no business getting involved in any kind of enforcement action for artists or labels they don't have a relationship with.
Sanity Check - Let's do the numbers (Score:2, Interesting)
Really.
Is this story true? A parking lot attendant sells 5 or 10 DVDs for $5/each per. week, and happens to have 78 of them in his booth. One of the titles is Como Te Extrano Vol. IV -- Musica de los 70's y 80's.
The parking lot attended might have expected to get $390 to $780, but it cost him something, perhaps half that.
So, going to MediaPlay's website, I see DVD's selling for $20/each. That make's the RIAA's membership's exposure around $1560, presuming that the copyright holders are members.
A four man RIAA squad probably costs the RIAA at least $400/hour. There's probably other charges for having an investigator/tip-line that notices things like parking lot attendants with under-the-windowsill operations. And the article doesn't tell whether the RIAA got the name of this guy's supplier. (Or perhaps it got his name from the supplier!)
In short, it doesn't seem to be worth rattling the cage of a parking lot attendant.
Unless you expect media exposure to scare off other bootlegers.
B.T.W.: I bought a couple of CD's last year, maybe one or two the previous year. And that's up over the past ten years. I don't own (or want) a DVD player, I don't have broadband at IP access, and my age and tastes are rather outside the buzz and flash of the file sharers. I'm one of those people who just aren't attracted to the RIAA's product.
But I hate, absolutely hate, the idea that the RIAA might someday invade my privacy, should I get broadband service, just because they or some ISP messed up the IP address they think someone publishing "their" music is on.
counterattack possibilities (Score:4, Interesting)
It would also be fun to set up a fake piracy ring selling legit CDs that appear to be pirated and "entrap" the RIAA - it would be pretty easy to provoke them into saying something that would get them into a lot of trouble: "Are you guys with the governement?" "Are you guys cops?" I'm sure that with a few carefully worded questions they would say yes. Just make sure you start the video camera at the right moment...
Re:I can't believe I'm saying this, but . . . (Score:1, Interesting)
They apparently crossed the line into seizure of property and use of force. No private party has the right to threaten use of force. In some jurisdictions, threatening to use restraint devices is treated no differently than a threat of a regular assault.
If we had any real evidence and the name of the person who said that he'd use handcuffs, there might be grounds to get the FBI involved and probe up the hierarchy of the organization to find out who knew or should have known this was going on. It's exactly this kind of smoking gun you need to get the RIAA shut down under federal RICO statutes.
But you need evidence. So far, we have an uncorroborated news report. Somehow I don't think Groklaw is going to switch from reporting on SCO over to this.
Re:Here is what they may be doing... (Score:1, Interesting)
I have a thought... (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh yeah, and we'll have them sign things saying that they volunteered to have their jackets taken away and threatened.