Indian Techies Answer About 'Onshore Insourcing'

This is an unusual Slashdot Interview, since instead of using email I asked all the questions in person last week either at LinuxAsia2004 or in casual meetings with local LUG members and other techies I met during the conference. Some of your questions were answered quite well by other Slashdot readers in the original post. (Slashdot has many readers both in and from India.) I also inserted a number of personal observations, which I usually don't do in these interviews, because it seemed to be the best way to answer some of the questions. And some questions were nearly unanswerable, as you'll see when you read the rest of this article.

Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas, by RobertB-DC

Long before outsourcing to India became an issue, large IT companies like American Airlines [aa.com] were virtual H1-B "hardship" visa factories, importing large numbers of technical experts from India and other countries during the dot-com boom.

But when the boom went bust, and the layoffs came, H1-B visa holders were left out in the cold, unable to even look for a new job due to the terms of their visas.

Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?

And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?

A:

Network administrator Manpeet Nemra says, "No, it was their choice to go. They always knew what the situation was. If you leave out the first few, the rest had contacts there and knew.

Others echoed his reply, and a few thought the questioner wasn't "thinking very clearly." One Perl programmer asked, "Does he think we don't have email lists and Web sites? We are techies. We stay in touch all over the world. We know what's going on everywhere, same as you."

On re-outsourcing: Ashvini Vishvakasarma, a consultant with Techspan, feels that American and European companies currently outsourcing work to India won't hesitate for a second to move their work elsewhere if they find a cheaper alternative. "They will move in a flash," he says. "They're leaving for the Philippines already. It's very disturbing for Indian programmers."

Average experience? - by El

How much experience do most Indian programmers have? It seems to me that in ramping up from a few hundred to thousands of programmers over the past few years, most of these people must be fresh out of school... how much training do people need before they start producing reliable results?

A:

It's common here for new grads (slang term: "freshers") to spend up to six months in a low-paid or even unpaid internship before they get a "'real" job. This is true not only of programmers and other IT people, but in almost all white collar positions. One of the desk clerks at the hotel I'm in is a new-grad management trainee who earns what she calls "a stipend that buys my clothes," and won't start earning her full starting salary -- about $330 per month -- for another four months.

Another factor (see other answers further down) is that some Indian programmers, like some American programmers, may be recent college grads, but have been messing with computers since their early teens or even before. The Delhi LUG's youngest current member is 13, and is dipping his toes into programming waters. Some of the college student members take on programming or Web projects for friends and family. In other words, many Indian new-grad IT people -- just like many new-grad IT people elsewhere -- may already have quite a bit of real-world experience when they get their "first" job.

Code Monkeys v. Architect? - by yintercept

Related to the experience question: Many US business pundits claim that the US is only outsourcing the low end code monkey and support jobs, and is keeping the higher end, more prestigious "project management" and architect jobs in the US?

First, is this the case? or is India also excelling in architectural and design work?

If it is the case, is there a resentment for the imperialistic attitude in only giving India the low end projects?

Finally, in a land where there are real monkeys am I making a big cultural blunder by calling people "code monkeys"?

A:

I got hit with a chorus on this one. The consensus was that in a poor country like India a job is a job, and one takes what one can get. If U.S. and European firms want to have Indians do only "low end" projects, fine. Meanwhile, home-grown companies are doing their own architecture and research, working desperately to build an India-based software industry that can survive after the "low end" outsourced projects move to China or wherever.

Response to the "code monkeys" comment, loosely translated into American English from Hindi-accented New Delhi English: "Ha, ha, ha, ha. It is the same everywhere. Some of us are good at this work, but many aren't. There are code monkeys everywhere. Real programmers, too, and real programmers here call code monkeys 'code monkeys' here same as anywhere else. Pass me another beer, will you?"

Quality of life - by Scott Lockwood

American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benefits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?

A:

At least five people said a comment attached to this question in the original interview post summed up the situation nicely. Here's that post (from "Anonymous Coward"), repeated:

I work for a large Multinational Tech Co.

Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? -- Yes. The rules are the same.

Are you allowed to organize into unions? -- Unions are definitely allowed by law. But as in the U.S there are no Unions of Software Professional. BTW, India is probably the only place in the world where there is a democratically elected communist state govt. In fact, the labor laws are stricter here. Its nearly impossible to fire Blue Collared Workers or Declare Bankruptcy.

How long is your work week? -- I put in the usual 40 hrs a week over 5 days.

What are your working conditions like? -- The food in the cafeteria is better here than what I had when I was in U.S :-)

What kind of benefits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? -- Folks in India probably get more vacation than in the U.S. As per Indian Law there has to be at least 14 days of earned leave and 7 days of sick leave. This is excluding the 3 national holidays (Republic Day, Independence Day, Gandhi Jayanti); 3 Hindu Holidays, 2 Muslim Holidays and 2 Christian Holidays, Plus 1 State holiday; Unless they fall on the weekend. As far as Medical goes, Govt of India Rules specify that a group Medical Insurance Policy be taken out by the Co. Usually this works out to a coverage of about $10000 for about $40 a month. Profit Sharing, Stock Options and Employee Stock Purchase Plans all exist. In fact one of the biggest stories used to be the Infosys Stock Plan. Also, the Govt Specifies that 12% of your Salary be paid by the Company towards Pension each month. This earns about 9.5% interest.

I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive? -- Thats because cost of living is far cheaper here. Food - about $50 a month, Rent about $175 a month, Entertainment, Eating out etc.. about $100 a month. So in all about $350 a month is more than enough. Whatever remaining usually goes into buying a car or a house.

Population vs. population with jobs? - by bc90021

With one billion people in India, what is being done to increase the number of employable people? Granted, while we in the US may not like our jobs leaving, it must be helpful to Indians. What is being done to increase the employability of the average Indian?

A:

This is a touchy subject. Less than 15% of the Indian population is what Americans would call "middle class." Many Indian workers live on between $35 and $100 per month, and one of the first sights a foreign visitor notices when walking out of the terminal building at the Delhi airport at midnight is people sleeping on the ground, right on the airport grounds. Begging is common almost everywhere except in communities and office complexes that have gates and guards to maintain control on who can and can't enter. I'll post several stories, with photos, on NewsForge later this week that will go into more depth about economic conditions in India and how the software industry does -- and doesn't affect them, but for now let's confine ourselves to a couple of quotes from Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay, who grew up in comparative poverty and is now a programmer/consultant who makes his living doing outsourced work for U.S. companies:

I grew up in a very poor village. My father made $10 per month as a schoolteacher. One bicycle was our only family transport. I went to college as a scholarship student. I did well in my exams, so the government paid for my education. Now I own two houses, and the workers I hired to build both of them had no other work, so that helped bring money into my village. My father and mother live in a house I built, too. I rent out one of the houses I own now and live in the other one. The money I earn spreads through the economy. Fathers work at better jobs because of my spending and can keep their children in school instead of having them go out to work early.

Mukhopadhyay believes that in the long run, to help technology benefit more of the population and raise living standards for all, India needs more of a "bootstrap economy. We need acceptance of the fact that innovation can come out of India."

He is not alone in this belief. Although the LinuxAsia2004 conference was heavily weighted toward speakers selling systems (i.e. Sun, IBM, and their giant brethren -- the "usual suspects") there were many small, quiet sessions that revolved around using computers and the Internet to distribute information to people in neighborhoods and villages where books are now rare and expensive.

The government talks constantly about uplifting all of India, not just the current rich and "middle class," but when you look at that one billion population figure and see the amount of money available, things still look bleak -- although India's economy is now increasing at a much faster rate than the population, so things are less bleak now than they were a generation ago.

But there is a long way to go. India's problems aren't going to be solved in a few years or even a few decades. This is an old country; Delhi has been continuously inhabited since about 1000 B.C., and in many ways life for some residents hasn't changed a great deal since then. India has only had an elected government since its independence from Great Britain in 1947, and politics since then have more tumultuous than not. While I was visiting, for the first time ever plans were being made for Cricket matches between the Indian and Pakistani national teams, with constant back-and-forth waffling by government people in both countries about whether the terrorism risk was acceptable. Last I heard, the match was going to happen.

So look for improvements in India overall, not just for the top 10% or 20% of the population. Just don't hold your breath waiting for all one billion Indians to become literate, well-dressed, and own motorcycles or cars (or even to have electricity and good plumbing), because even if every software job in the U.S. ends up there, and none later evaporate to even poorer countries, India's "modernization" could easily take a century or more.

Education Costs - by dachshund

How much does an Indian college education cost the typical student? Is it government subsidized, or are students expected to pick up the entire cost? And how does that cost compare to the average yearly salary of a college-educated technology worker (ie, how long does it take you to pay of college debt?)

A:

There's a big "it depends" attached to this answer. As noted above, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay got a government-supported scholarship because of his high entrance exam test scores. Students with lower test scores but prosperous parents can also get into college. And now, according to one educator I met at the Centre for Development of Advanced Computing (CDAC), banks are starting to loan money to cover student fees at what she called "favourable interest rates."

According to CDAC students Vikas Gupta and Loveleen Choudray, it takes three to four years of work for most loan-supported students to pay off college debts. They told me 20% of university seats are reserved for free (scholarship) students, while the cost of a "paid seat" can range from 22,000 rupees (about $486 US) up to 72,000 rupees (about $1600 US), depending on the school.

This is eminently affordable for middle class Indian families (both Gupta and Choudray are going through college on their parents' tab) -- but don't forget that "middle class" is not a high percentage of the population. (See the next question and answer.)

Cost of living? - by demigod

What does a decent 2 bedroom apartment cost per month?

How about food for 1 month?

Utilities, etc?

A:

I was asking this question in New Delhi, India's capital city, and living costs in India vary as much as they do anywhere else depending on where you live. I met programmers who lived in apartments and houses that cost anywhere between $200 and $500 per month, and a few who lived in compounds their families had owned for generations. The consensus was that $11,000 or $12,000 (US) per year was plenty to support a middle class lifestyle. But "middle class" there is not the same as in the U.S. Some differences:

• Indians drive tiny cars by U.S. (or even European) standards
• The motor scooter or motorbike is common transport for young people -- and a 100cc bike is about as big as most get, with 150cc to 200cc considered powerful speed machines.
• If you don't own a car, you can hire one -- including chauffeur -- for about $10 per day.
• Forget public transportation. Buses are filthy and overcrowded. You're probably better off taking one of the seemingly millions of green, three-wheeled auto-rickshaws that are on every street in the city. (They are limited by law to three passengers, but I saw seven people get out of one...)
• Servants cost about $35 month to hire in New Delhi. Every "middle class" Indian household seems to have at least one live-in servant -- but few have dishwashers or other "household convenience" appliances.
• Food and clothing are amazingly cheap by Western standards. I mean seriously cheap, like less than 1/10 as much. On the other hand, programmers in India are professional workers who are expected to wear suits and ties for most business events (although most wear the same basic "jeans and t shirt" fashions as their U.S. counterparts when not required to dress up).

It's hard to put a one-to-one comparison on cost of living between countries with different cultures and economic imperatives. Medical care (and health insurance) are much lower in India than in the U.S., but then you can bring up the example of Canada and its national health insurance, for which Canadians pay higher taxes than U.S. residents.

Bottom line: You can have a decent life in New Delhi for around $12,000 US per year -- but to earn that much you'll probably need to have source of income from another country -- like programming outsourced from the U.S. or Europe -- because most white-collar jobs there pay $6000 US or less, and burger-flipping there is likely to net you more like $2000, which may not be enough to afford an apartment with electricity and running water. (And yes, plenty of people in New Delhi live without running water or electricity.)

Distorting the Economy - by BigBadBri

Not specifically about IT outsourcing, but more about call centre outsourcing - does the drain of educated people to call centres have any implications for the rest of the economy?

Call centre staff can earn more than teachers, police, nurses, etc - are those professions suffering as a result of the call centres picking out the English speakers?

Is this storing up problems for India's public sector in the future?

A:

I had a long conversation with a guy who works as a hiring manager for Prudential's customer service operation in New Delhi.

Let's note, from the start, that Prudential does not "outsource" to India. They own their own call center (or centre, depending on your spelling heritage) there. When you speak to someone in their New Delhi office, she -- and it is usually "she" -- is just as much a Prudential employee as someone working in one of their U.S. offices.

This call center woman is probably earning around $300 month (US), and without that job she'd be working in a shop for $100 per month. She works nights (so she can deal with calls from the U.S. during the U.S. business day), and one of her benefits is rides to and from work, so there is a whole transportation business sector that has developed to do nothing but take call center employees to and from work, not to mention cafeterias to feed her at work, Starbucks and other foreign chains (including McDonald s) where she spends her paychecks, cell phone companies that take her money because no techno-hip young Indian woman can be caught dead without a cell phone, at least from the examples I saw all around me.

Call center work is not necessarily permanent. It is a burnout job in India just as phone "customer service" work is in the U.S. It is also not that great on the pay scale. The breakfast waiter in the "American Diner" in my hotel said he made more waiting tables than he'd make in a call center; that he had friends who did call center work to help them get through college or whatever, but that no one expects to do it for life -- and besides, all those jobs will go to the Philippines sooner or later, anyway, so why bother?

So our Prudential guy is a good company man (who is not being quoted by name because he was not authorized to speak for the company, and the Pru gets tight about such things all over the world) and earns a nice salary, right up there with a programmer if not slightly higher. He's single, so he lives well, and friends say he has access to many potential girlfriends since he's in charge of hiring and training a workforce composed primarily of young women, which he acknowledges is a major fringe benefit.

Now the other side: There is no shortage of people in New Delhi to fill all the call center jobs -- and all the police, nursing, and teaching positions. and if all the people in New Delhi were suddenly employed, people from other parts of the country would flock there like mad, and if they don't know English they are willing to learn (including an American accent) if it will get them a decent job, and there are plenty of schools that will teach them either for an upfront fee or by taking some of their call center earnings after they get a job.

There is no shortage of people to do any kind of decent-paying work in India, period. The Army turns down at least 19 out of 20 applicants who want to be enlisted soldiers, and turns down 49 out of every 50 officer candidates, who must have college degrees even to apply in most cases.

This goes back to that whole "one billion people" thing. If a million of them work in "offshore" positions, that's only one out of thousand. Make it 10 million, and it's still only one percent of the population, and as the prosperity created by the 10 million working for offshore companies wends its way through the economy, more children will be able to go to school longer, which will make the workforce progressively more educated, which will increase the supply of potential employees for "first world" companies.

But don't forget: China, The Philippines, Vietnam, and other countries lurk in the wings, not to mention African countries that are still at the very beginning of the industrialization curve and have people more desperate by far than India has had for several decades now.

What about the long-term? - by The Night Watchman

This point has already been mentioned a bit by previous articles, but I'd like to hear an insider's take on it. The Indian tech economy is booming now, but like in the US, it's an unstable boom. Sooner or later, the US will look to other countries for their tech work, leaving India high and dry. What measures are being taken in India to maintain a strong internal tech economy, in the event that the US is no longer a serious customer?

A:

I got many answers to this question, and they all boiled down to, "We must build a domestic IT market."

But then, how can you do that in a country where a clerk costs less than a computer, and you have -- as one person put it -- "government officials out in the villages who are afraid to use a computer because they think the keyboards might give them an electric shock"?

Most people I talked to believe government is the only hope; that egovernment and other government projects are the only way to develop a sustainable local IT sector.

Next question (asked by Indians I spoke to): "Where is the government going to get the money?"

I was asked to pose this one to Slashdot readers. Consider it posed. Plenty of Indians would like to know the answer.

New Indian Startup Companies - by blueZhiftb

I'd like to know how long it will be before Indian tech professionals start forming startup companies to compete directly with their American corporate masters using what they have learned from them.

A:

It's already happening. Like mad. Half the people I met through the Delhi LUG are either self-employed or thinking about starting their own businesses. This could be a whole separate article, possibly even a whole series of articles.

Geek culture in India? - by Experiment 626

In the U.S., there is something of a geek subculture which Slashdot in particular caters to. Obviously, not all programmers are true geeks at heart, but among the people in America who are really fascinated by computers, you have a greatly disproportionate number who are into science fiction, RPGs/LARPs, Lord of the Rings, Legos, Anime, etc.

Does this apply in India as well? Would, say, a Unix systems programmer there typically have such things as interests? If not, are there analogous hobbies that distinguish the Indian geek from everyone else?

A:

After a few evenings hanging out with Delhi LUG guys (and yes, it's almost entirely guys), I realized that you could hold a joint meeting of the Delhi LUG and the Suncoast LUG here in Florida, and the only major differences would be the brands of beer ordered for the first round. The biggest argument would be over whose beer is better, followed by the ever-popular vi vs. emacs and KDE vs. Gnome controversies. Raj, from the Delhi LUG, and Logan, from the Suncoast LUG, would probably become huge buddies in about two seconds. I swear, if I closed my eyes while listening to Raj's bad jokes, sometimes I thought he was Logan -- and I mean this as a compliment to both of them.

All the Delhi LUG crowd reads Slashdot. For the most part, they read the same science fiction books and watch the same movies as their U.S. counterparts. The ones who play guitar know pretty much the same songs -- and generally (*ahem*) play with the same great skill -- as Rob Malda.

And the unmarried ones had the same complaints about never meeting appropriate girls, too.

Geek culture is worldwide. It's not exactly the same everywhere, but (so far) I've observed it first-hand in Mexico, Trinidad, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and now India, and I assure you, there are many more points of similarity than differences between its various "branches," at least in my (limited) experience.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Democracy is a governmental system.
Communism is an economic system.
They are totally orthogonal. Anybody who believes differently has been fooled by McCarthy's propoganda.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[DAldredge]

Just wait. Our tax system can not survive a large influx of people who pay next to no taxes and most of the new jobs in the US don't pay enought to require those working at them to pay federal income tax. Something will have to change

"Outsourcing"

[MillionthMonkey]

Let's note, from the start, that Prudential does not "outsource" to India. They own their own call center (or centre, depending on your spelling heritage) there. When you speak to someone in their New Delhi office, she -- and it is usually "she" -- is just as much a Prudential employee as someone working in one of their U.S. offices.

When Americans speak of "outsourcing" in this context they mean "out" as in "out of the country". What is being described here is arguably worse than outsourcing per se from our perspective since it represents a more significant investment.

"expensive" books?!?

[SuperBanana]

there were many small, quiet sessions that revolved around using computers and the Internet to distribute information to people in neighborhoods and villages where books are now rare and expensive.

Last time I looked, for the cost of a cheap PC, you can buy dozens, if not hundreds, of books. They don't need internet connections or power, aren't affected by dust, dirt or careless handling. They also at least a couple decades.

The sad thing is, the same crap has been happening in the US for at least a decade. Yessir, Smallville has a computer in every classroom, but Johnny and Suzy need to "share" To Kill a Mockingbird because there's "no money" for more copies. The teachers have to buy supplies out of their own pockets because the school has "no money". And that computer? Sits off most of the time, or even worse, sits on, drawing inane animated pictures on the screen, running up the school's electric bill.

I strongly suggest reading Cliff Stoll's Silicon Snake Oil...

Re:whoa

[geoffspear]

That's because Americans are brainwashed from birth to believe that "Communism" means "evil form of dictator-controlled government based around the idea of killing all Americans", rather than a political philosophy dedicated to the rights of the workers.

The fact that most governments that have called themselves "Communist" have been ruled by elitist nutjobs whose only motivation was to increase their own power doesn't help, of course.

Re:My question is....

[Creepy Crawler]

"If the US was as competitive as India is, do you think open source would be where it is today?"

Yes, because they're always Idealists. Stallman comes to mind, as he made the first powerful editor available over a TTY, and gave away a multi-platform C(++) compiler.

I can make guesses of what might happen, but that's all they are. I'm asking a question for present day.

Re:My question is....

[Rhubarb Crumble]

Why dont we see more Eastern (China, Japan, India....) Open Source software projects when they're soo good at computers?

Maybe they spend a lot of time working on localisation, the results of which the "english-speaking world" never hears about?

Re:My question is....

[psycho_tinman]

Because for the most part, hardware was expensive until a few years back, and so was the cost of accessing the internet. I can only speak for South Asia, though.. because I have quite a few friends and acquaintances there. My flatmate is from China, and from what I hear, it's much the same there as well.

In most cases, computers were prohibitively expensive (until recently, when Taiwanese manufacturers and the whole clone market got off the ground) and few could afford to have much time at computers, let alone own one. If a machine is not yours, and if you can only tinker with it on and off (and you're worried about breaking it and being denied access), and if you don't even have a good internet connection, your contribution to open source software is going to be slightly lacking.

But things are changing now, so I'd expect to see more projects soon. There is a learning curve associated with joining existing projects too.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[dankney]

I have two immediate thoughts about this post:

1.) The problem there isn't the company. If they are a publically traded company, they are required by law to do everything possible to maximize shareholder value. If they don't, shareholders can sue them for failing in this duty. If we're worried as a country about labor outsourcing, we should look into this type of regulation.

2.) Yes, these jobs are going to continue to be outsourced. If you're like me, a commodity-level geek, then your job is in danger and there's nothing you can do about it (I'm working short-term contracts at the moment, some of it is to ease the transition to out-sourcing).

If you're unhappy with that situation, then you need to do everything in your power to increase your skills and experience beyond the commodity level. Maybe that means working your way into architecture-type positions. Maybe it means going back and getting an MBA and looking at the business side of IT. But if you're planning on doing hardware support over the phone for the rest of your carrer, you're pretty much screwed.

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Tancredo is about taking back the country.

A friend of mine met a nice man in college, got married, had a baby on the way. He was from Brazil. He made the mistake of returning to Brazil for a short visit (he was still a student, and was applying for citizenship) and was not allowed back in the country for almost seven months - he arrived back the day before my friend had labor induced because she was weeks overdue.

My friend appealed to Tancredo to please help her husband return to the country so he could help support her (support is not just financial, you know) but Tancredo didn't listen. Campbell was kind enough to help her, though, and got her husband back to the US and helped with obtaining citizenship so he could help support the family he started.

Tancredo's method would have produced nothing but a welfare mom.

Re:My question is....

[vivekm]

As an Indian undergrad student who believes that salvation of comp sci. lies only in free/open software, my answer to that question will be that, in India the majority of the population is poor, at least as compared to international standards. We are as good programmers as those in any part of the world but the major difference lies in the kind of resources that we have and the lack of financial support to undertake open source projects. Most of us would rather grab the job that comes first in our sight and work on it, rather than wait for the ones most of us dream of.

As for the `idea of free knowledge exchange', ofcourse it is widely supported by most Indian programmers, atleast those who haven't entered the `Gates' of hell. Sarovar [sarovar.org] is one of India's contributions to the FLOSS world. A sourceforge.net clone that provides hosting for Free/Open Source Software projects.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[stratjakt]

Teachers who buy supplies out of their own pockets, are generally new college grads, teaching at the lower elementary level, (K-3) who fancy themselves the next great educator.

They want to do all those 'fun and new' activities that they read about in chickadee magazine. Because school is apparently about everything BUT learning math, english, or history.

My third grader is required to take a calculator to class because they dont want to spend time teaching kids arithmetic. Because some kids find it hard, and the argument is it discourages them and they dont like school and dont want to learn. Oh, and heaven forbid any child fail at anything. Of course, the real reason is, that its too much like work to actually TEACH the kids who have trouble grasping it.

Anyways, sorry bitch, but making papier machee monkeys to celebrate martin luther king day is not in the budget. A ditto machine and a fucking number 2 pencil was all we needed in my day.

Do you know where your source code comes from?

[Kunta Kinte]

Several points...

(i) Do you know where the code you use everyday comes from? That is, how do you know how much and at what rates Far-Easterners contribute to open-source? Should every project carry the nationality of the core developers?

(ii) Poorer countries have very limited access to the internet. Something very needed for the research and communication needed for building and managing an open-source project. I had this problem with my native home.

(iii) You need to have your basic needs comfortably taken care of before you can take time to develop software for free. That's true for any person anywhere I think, and very important if you're building a non-trivial project. I have this problem now.

(iv) Language differences may also hinder these projects.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

one is a political system, the other is an economic system. they have nothing to do with one annother, and in a matter of degrees, happen far more often than you'd know.

check out chile in the late 70's. before the cia helped to replace the democratically elected salvador allende with pinochet

Re:whoa

[Godeke]

Democratic elections can coexist with communist ideals, but usually the blend is called social/democratic not communist/democrating due to two things. The first is the "hot button" that the word communist represents politically, and secondly because true communism fails over a certain threshold population size. (Utopias usually were communal, and they worked until the freeloaders overloaded the system...)

You have to realize that there is a spectrum of political stances and different dimentions they go in. Mob Rule -> Representitive Democracy -> Republic -> Parlamentry Monarchy -> Dictatorship represent a rough sketch of the peoples participation in government. Communism -> Socialism -> Self Determination represent an axis of "how much support" the people should receive from government. These are rough, incomplete and off the top of my head, but you can combine any representational system with any support system, in theory. Likewise, the Capitalist -> State Run market axis is theoretically independent.

Modern usage has tended to blur the true meanings of these words. We seem to assume "Democratic" = "Representitive Democracy + Mild Socialism + Capitalism". It doesn't have to be that way.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Kenja]

"I guess I don't understand how in a "global economy", that kind of difference in the cost of living survives, and how it ties in with things like inflation and other economic factors."

Easy, its not a "global economy". If it where I could go to India and get a job paying 11k a year and live off that. However they dont allow US tech workers to work over there unless you get sponsored by an Indian copany. Thats a local, protectionist economy. Not that this is a bad thing, I just wish the US corps would stop trying to tell me that their outsourceing because of globilization rather then because they want a new summer home.

Re:My question is....

[FreshFunk510]

First of all this question reeks of racism. "They're" so good at computers? Much like asians are good at math, black people are good at sports and all Irish people like fighting?

Anyway, if asked seriously, in China the idea of "free knowledge exchange" is not exactly a popular one as it is regularly looked down-upon by the government (and is even used as a reason to prosecute people).

In India, I imagine it isn't as popular as you would think it to be because the average person does not own a computer. If you looked at the number of computers per person in America versus India, I bet it would portray a picture where India is very behind, on a broad level, in terms of technical advancement. What's the point of free knowledge exchange if you don't even have a computer (let alone an internet connection)?

Japan. Who knows? They have a history of consumer electronics and seem to be continually working to fill that niche. More recently, they seem to be filling in the mobile technology area.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your view is a little shortsighted. In some villages even firewood is hard to come by. So your dozens or hundreds of books could quickly become kindling for a poor family who is cold and needs to burn something to cook and stay warm. The computer of course could easily be stolen but that depends on how watchful the teachers and principal of the school are. That is of course if they don't walk off with the computer themselves.

Re:important question...

[Sarvagya]

"Old Monk" is atcually a rum. And yes, Taj Mahal is an Indian beer available in may Indian restaurants here in the US.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Semantics

[FreshFunk510]

"Let's note, from the start, that Prudential does not "outsource" to India. They own their own call center (or centre, depending on your spelling heritage) there. When you speak to someone in their New Delhi office, she -- and it is usually "she" -- is just as much a Prudential employee as someone working in one of their U.S. offices."

With all due respect, who cares? Who cares what word you use to describe the loss of jobs to a foreign country? "Employed" or "Outsourced". Either way the final result is the loss of an American job to a foreign counterpart.

Re:whoa

[lish2]

Think of it like this: Communism is an economic philosophy, compare it to capitalism. Democracy is a political philosophy, compare it to monarchy. You can mix and match. Democracy and capitalism often go together, but there's no real reason they need to.

Re:whoa

[katharsis83]

Capitalistic communism? Try China, where entrepeneuers/business-owners are allowed into the China Communist Party.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[javiercero]

Yup 3 million jobs lost in the past 3 years, your "trickle down" politics are working wonderfully!

Congrtulations keep up the good job!

Wisdom vs Money

[stuffduff]

While India has long been associated with poverty from an economic standpoint, the Indian culture has, in general, a far greater respect for wisdom and knowledge than anything we see in Europe or America. So I'm glad to see that the recognition of wisdom and knowledge are helping to 'bootstrap' a new culture. I just hope that no one loses site of the values that enabled the recognition of the opportunity! I'd hate to see the respect of traditional values be destroyed by the desire for money. Wisdom may well give rise to money, but all too often money stupifies and blinds the wealthy to the value of wisdom.

There's one in every crowd...

[RobertB-DC]

Quite an honor to get the lead question, and even cooler to know that people in India now have the opportunity to question my clarity of thought!

Others echoed his reply, and a few thought the questioner wasn't "thinking very clearly." One Perl programmer asked, "Does he think we don't have email lists and Web sites? We are techies. We stay in touch all over the world. We know what's going on everywhere, same as you."

Consider me properly chastened. However... the reason I asked the question is because it's a topic that came up while talking to a fellow programmer of Indian heritage. She pointed out the H1-B visa's hidden pitfalls as a problem in the Indo-Pak community.

I guess the answer to my question is that *most* H1-B recipients knew what they were getting into, though a few either didn't do their research or chose to ignore the warnings. Which sounds like a pretty universal situation -- as the interviews showed, we're more alike than different.

But just one little swipe. When the Perl programmer questioned my fuzzy thinking, he said "We know what's going on everywhere, same as you." Well, despite all the time I spend on Slashdot, I *don't* know what's going on everywhere, and I can't imagine that Mr. Perl does, either... Oh, well, there's one know-it-all in every crowd.

Re:Nitpick on the cricket

[rsidd]

Not only that, but to whoever modded it offtopic: it's no more offtopic than communism, to which much verbiage and many modpoints are currently being devoted. In fact, cricket is arguably much more central to a typical Indian's worldview, to India-Pakistan relations and diplomacy, and many other things.

Re:My question is....

[andy1307]

There is nothing racist about the comment. It's a cultural thing, not a racial thing. Asians born in the US tend to do well because their parents expect them to perform to their potential and failure to do so has consequences. Most blacks have athletes for role models.

Re:whoa

[pete-classic]

We seem to sit on opposite ends of the economic spectrum, but socially we are at the same extreme.

From an essay I'm working on:

Anarchy. What images does the word conjure for you? Try to picture "anarchy" in concrete images.

If you are like most people you probably picture images from the news. Depending on your age you might have images from Kent State, the Watts riots, the L.A. riots. Maybe images from Central America or China.

Consider the political environment surrounding those places and times. Was it anarchy? Anarchy is the absence of government [m-w.com]. Hardly the case in any of the above examples. In fact the sort of chaos that comes to mind is actually associated with an over-abundance of government, not its absence.

-Peter

Re:Chills up my spine

[dotsbir]

I don't know if the situation is brains ... becoming a very cheap commodity so much as it is a situation of having a larger pool of applicants to pick from. Example: High School Valedictorians may be very smart relative to their classmates, but put bunches of them together at a top-tier college or university and suddenly you've got people who had gotten used to being the head of the class suddenly in the middle of the back or even the bottom third! Well, imagine that instead of taking SATs and filling out college application forms and sending in small checks for the applications to get into university, you actually had to sit down and take a competitive exam to get into college. Now imagine that this competitive exam is taken not just by your high-school mates but by the top-tier of high-school graduates-to-be from your whole state. If you're applying to IIT, your competition is the top-tier from throughout the country. So we're talking about the cream of the crop of a billion bodies and brains, hustling just as hard, if not harder, to get into the coveted educational slots in engineering or medicine or law. And possible speculation: having to continue your education amidst these very competitive students might make you learn more.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Sebastopol]

This is how trickle down is supposed to work. One could argue the trickle down will stop working in India for the same reason it failed in the 80s: greed --

CEOs got tax breaks and used the money for huge bonuses, then hired illegal immigrants to build their multi-million dollar heated pools for their chalets in Colorado -- and then rather than investing in the community, closed factories and moved overseas to boost profits and increase bonuses.

That's why today we have a stock market boom and increasing unemployment. From my liberal viewpoint, tax increases boosted the economy by balancing the budget, stabilizing the prime rate, and reversing the greed that broke the trickle-down theory.

Now I'll get a: "-1 (Anti-Reagan)" ;-)

Re:whoa

[Curunir_wolf]

It sounds more like India's "democratic communism" can also be as accurately described as "Capitalistic Communism". Certainly there are capitalist markets at work there, or Prudential would not be allowed to own their own call center, and there would be no such thing as a "tech startup", since by the strictest definition, only the government can start a company.

Just as communists can be placed in charge of government by a democratic process, a communist-controlled government can promote clearly defined property rights, well-developed commercial law -- and an entrepreneurial and professional class. In fact, these things already exist in India, as does an active stock market. So, for now, at least, this Capitalistic Communism (Communistic Capitalism??) exists, whether it makes sense or not.

Re:whoa

[calmdude]

It was more a philosophical post than a practical one. I haven't heard of the Ikung people, so I can't comment on that.

Anarchy comes from the Greek anarkhos meaning without a ruler. Communal and personal rules still exist, however, there is no political authority. As Noam Chomsky would say, all socialism is not anarchy, but all anarchy is socialist.

Re:whoa

[m0rph3us0]

Also, most dictatorships are capitalist nations.

Re:distribution of wealth

[Anonymous Coward]

"huge amount of wealth is being accumulated and then not doing anything"

That has to be the dumbest thing I've read on Slashdot in a long time. Do you think that when you put your money in a "personal account" that it just sits there? Of course it doesn't! The bank loans that money to someone else, who spends it, and eventually gives it back. That someone else could be an entrepreneur starting a business, someone buying or building a house, or a big company that wants to expand even further. There is no such thing as "stagnant" money, unless you take some currency (or something of value) and hide it under your mattress.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the only system that is not morally bankrupt is the one that prevents a majority from imposing its will on an unwilling minority. Some people call "rule by the majority" democracy. But there are also other terms for it, such as lynching, gang rape, and the tyranny of the majority.

Re:Even Interviews

[elmegil]

Hell if more of it were like this "interview", it might be worth subscribing!

Re:Even Interviews

[leviramsey]

If Slashdot could offer an article of this level of insight and so forth, I'd reckon that they'd double their subscriptions.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[happyfrogcow]

It would work, but remember the statistic that says something like "10% of the population controls 90% of the wealth" (real stats may vary, but it's something like that). That 90% of the wealth is tied up in personal accounts making more money for it's master. A litre of that might be diffused into the atmosphere and trickle down to the local economies. The only work trickle down economics did in the 80s was shift the load to the 90s and beyond. Middle/Upper middle class spent while corporate leaders reaped the benefits. Their pockets are lined with gold and silver still.

I agree that it *could* work, but the wealth of the top 10% is stagnant and won't trickle anywhere.

Here's the culprit right here

[JustAnotherReader]

I met programmers who lived in apartments and houses that cost anywhere between $200 and $500 per month.

So what we really have is this scenario:

1. US software companies tend to exist in Silicon valley, Orange County, San Diego County, and Boston. These are also the most expensive places in the country to live.
2. US software companies don't seem to want to allow telecommuting when their employees live within driving distance of work. They certainly don't want to allow it when the employee lives in, for example, Kentucky.
3. That means that the employees need to make wages high enough to afford housing in these markets. How do you pay a mortgage of $2500 to $4000 a month if you're not making $90k to $120k a year?
4. The US employees average car loan cost him $350 a month, plus auto insurance, plus gas (which hovers around $2 a gallon here in California).
5. So the US employee has NO CHOICE but to live in the expensive part of the country because the companies are too short sighted to see the benefit of letting their employees telecommute from places where the cost of living is cheaper. And yet isn't this EXACTLY what outsourcing is? It's just hiring employees who telecommute from a place where the cost of living is cheaper.
6. Therefore: US employees must have higher wages to maintain a middle class standard of living that would cost 30% to 50% less in other areas of OUR OWN country.
7. Employers then make the dumb-ass decision that "US programmers are too expensive" and they move the jobs offshore to India instead of using any of the easily available and less morally bankrupt cost cutting tools available to them.

   • The software companies caused their own problem. Our own government make the problem worse by keeping instrest rates so low that housing prices (not value, but prices) have skyrocketed. It's not the programmer's fault that the jobs in this country exist where they do, but we're the ones who are getting screwed.

     If US companies had enough foresight to see beyond the tips of their own noses they would realize that they could save money simply by outsourcing jobs to the midwest. Keep American jobs, keep the tax base here in America, and take the higher moral road.

     Have any of these companies thought about where their customers will come from when the middle class and upper middle class in America are no longer working AND no longer contributing to the tax base? There's more to outsourcing than me losing my job. This is the straw that will break America's already overloaded economic back.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[spun]

Oh, god, that tired old cliche. Libertarian views get modded down here? What version of slashdot do you read? Conservatives get modded down when they are morons, but Libertarians never get modded down. 4 out of 5 slashdotters is probably libertarian leaning.

And 'Voodoo Economics,' a.k.a. trickle down, never works. It didn't work here. It isn't working now, not here, not there. Look at our recovery. All the money is going to the rich. We aren't even making new jobs fast enough to keep up with population growth. There may be a lot of poor people in India, but I bet they don't have nearly the income and wealth disparity that we have. Rich people in this country long ago got so rich that trickle down can't possibly work. Rich people just don't spend extra money building up the local economy any more.

Smart people get modded up here all the time, whether they are liberal, libertarian, or conservative. In fact, those labels are tired and worn out, they don't accurately describe most people nowadays. There is more to politics than left and right. People who try to get the rest of us to divide up and fight each other just want to take advantage of the chaos to stay on top.

Computers more like a LIBRARY than a book

[seawall]

Books/Computers is changing question and we are nearing a tipping point as traditional book costs continue to remain stable (or go up) and computer costs go down.

Schools try to train for tomorrow as well as today. They don't alweays succeed but:

If you have something like a lowend Palm and an internet connection (possibly shared by many) all of a sudden you have a LOT of public domain, classic books, available for very near no cost. Although a library might have 6 copies, the net has as many copies as you have devices to display them.

In some domains, like 19th century english literature: computers are cheaper than traditional books now and I expect that trend to continue.

This is, of course, probably less true in some places than others and books currently mostly have the edge but the trend is probably worldwide and longterm.

I expect traditional books to remain a common item throughout my life but probably not the life of my grandchildren. Makes me a little sad.

OPA

[dillon_rinker]

Organised Peaceful Anarcy makes perfect sense.

Anarchy means no government. Peaceful anarchy is probably the only form possible, as violent anarchy leads rapidly to rule by the strongest man with the biggest stick. An organized peaceful anarchy would be one in which there was no government but much coordination. I'd see the organization as having a more economic than political role, though. Without some organization, you might wind up with everyone growing grapes and no one growing hops, and that would be a tragedy.

I'll grant that organized peaceful anarchy is unstable (tending toward violent disorganized anarchy) and it probably wouldn't last for a real long time, but then, in the scale of human history, neither does democracy.

Re:whoa

[McShazbot]

Actually, communism is a political/governmental system and socialism is an economic system. Along those lines, democracy is a political/governmental system and capitalism is an economic system.

One question I would have liked to see

[The Slashdolt]

One question I would have liked to see asked is about intellectual property laws. Copyrights and things of that nature. As the interview states, many of our Indian brethren read slashdot so maybe one of them can reply to this. My question is about what kind of IP laws exist in India in comparison to US laws. Are US copyright laws valid there? What is to stop a company from outsourcing to India, and then having the company in India take that new IP and later compete with the company that originally outsourced to it?

Tied up wealth

[nuggz]

Sorry money never gets "tied up".
The only place close would be in government bonds, which are now basically tools to control the money supply.

If you have a lot of money, you own companies (outright or in stock), or you loan it out (bonds, money market investments, or a bank account).

The money is still there, being invested and growing both the investment and the economy at large.

FWIW I'd hope that Bill G pays little in taxes compared to his wealth. You should pay taxes on income, not only on assets. I'd be really pissed if the gov started taxing my emergency fund, or the money I was saving to [buy a house, go to school, retire on].

Cost Model

[GodLived]

I wonder how the typical American IT company accounts for risk in their cost model when trying to decide whether to outsource. Risks can come from several factors:

• Import/export laws governing types of code/technology transfer to a certain country, noting that laws change with the wind depending on who's in power
• Economic equity, e.g., how well the rupee is doing against the dollar
• Labor policy disparity - American unions vs. Indian unions in non-IT related firms

Another way to look at it - offshore outsourcing seems to have some of the same risks as telecommuting, for both the companies and the employees... and look how well telecommuting has been accepted in the U.S.!

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[ObiWonKanblomi]

I realize this may be considered by many as off-topic, but please hear me out before marking me so.

I'm going to have to lean toward the neo-facist comment. I've been a student of history for some time now, and am starting to notice the many parallels between the events in the United States and that of Weimar Republic Germany in the mid-to-late 1920s. This can be illustrated by the increasing political stagnation while society is "moving forward" at a fast rate.

Economically speaking, I think we Americans may be venting our anger at the wrong people, but if this continues, it will eventually lead to a sort of new age isolationism in America. Another thing to note is that American government makes a big change when the isolationist period ends. True, with globalization, it will be more difficult for this to occur, but you could look at france as a modern day example of this new age isolationalism.

Another example: I won't get too off topic, but for a decent chunk of time, Berlin was known in the 20s as a Mecca for homosexuals due to the lack of enforcement of any sort of anti-gay laws. Look at San Francisco right now with this whole gay marraige issue.

This sort of behavior that we Americans are starting to display now with the lack of action/reaction within our government can prove as an ideal source for a dictatorship.

While, I myself feel that a dictatorship isn't a totally bad thing (Castro), we should definitely examine this matter and realize what is occuring.

No long term threat here. Next.

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

Q: This point has already been mentioned a bit by previous articles, but I'd like to hear an insider's take on it. The Indian tech economy is booming now, but like in the US, it's an unstable boom. Sooner or later, the US will look to other countries for their tech work, leaving India high and dry. What measures are being taken in India to maintain a strong internal tech economy, in the event that the US is no longer a serious customer?

A: Most people I talked to believe government is the only hope; that egovernment and other government projects are the only way to develop a sustainable local IT sector. Next question (asked by Indians I spoke to): "Where is the government going to get the money?" I was asked to pose this one to Slashdot readers. Consider it posed. Plenty of Indians would like to know the answer.

Let's hope for the sake of Indians that you're wrong.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume you're right, i.e. let's assume that most [if not all] Indians look to their government to solve their problems for them.

Then I can say with 100% metaphysical certainty that these people will never pose a threat to us in any way, matter, shape, or form.

Next. [Threat, that is.]

Where is the government going to get the money?

[slackr]

Next question (asked by Indians I spoke to): "Where is the government going to get the money?"

To answer this question (since it was posed) the Indian government will have a hard time coming up with enough money to do anything for 1 billion people when the very lucky ones are only pulling down $10,000/year. See, according to my paystub, the answer *would* be taxes, but here in the US we have a much lower unemployment rate and I personally pay enough in taxes to support two full-time programmers in India, or to put that in even starker perspective, I give enough money to the US government to hire and retain almost 50 Indian household servants.

And I couldn't come close to affording one here in the states. In fact, I don't make much at all. In other words, here in the US we are not expecting the government to build us a new economy, and yet middle-class folks like me are funding the government with much bigger sums of money to provide baseline social services to a much smaller population.

It seems to me that while a homegrown IT market is a great and important plan, the Indian government will not find it easy to create an entire economy based on that alone. But why does everyone have to work in the tech industry? Take a tip from FD Roosevelt's "New Deal" plan to get the US out of its depression back in the 1930's. It goes like this:
(people who need homes) + (people who need jobs) = (lots of jobs building houses). All kinds of infrastructure can be created this way, building roads, office complexes, etc., and once everyone's on their feet they will continue to benefit from all of these public works projects taht were created during the hard times.

Right but there's still that huge population, so who's going to pay for all that? Easy, one more lesson in US public funding: DEFICIT SPENDING. It's simple, if you don't have the cash, spend it anyway. When will you pay it back? We haven't figured that out yet, but it sure beats begging. Like my Dad always says, I'd rather owe it to you than cheat you out of it ;)

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[be-fan]

You don't have to be "sought out by an Indian company." You merely need a job offer for one. Nothing prevents you from seeking those jobs yourself.

As far as I'm concerned, that's fair on both sides. I mean, they can't come here without a job offer either!

Re:My question is....

[Dave2 Wickham]

Asians are not Hindus

Asia's a continent, Hinduism is a religion. One of the main areas of Hinduism is India. India is in South Asia. Therefore a vast number of Asians are Hindus...

Re:My question is....

[christophersaul]

Wasn't Sun co-started by an Indian?

Re:Hurst, Doesn't It?

[pclminion]

Can't work from your home country nickel and diming some other countries natives out of their jobs anymore.

Let me get this straight: some American companies approach some Indians and say "Hey, we need this work done, it's too expensive here, we'll pay you $XXX to do it."

And you're blaming the Indians for accepting a job offer? People offer them money, and they take it! How dare they! Of course, you would do different.

Let's place the blame, if there indeed is any to be placed, on the right spot, shall we?

Downside of outsourcing

[glinden]

I thought this was particularly interesting.

• Q: I'd like to know how long it will be before Indian tech professionals start forming startup companies to compete directly with their American corporate masters using what they have learned from them.
  
  A: It's already happening. Like mad.

By outsourcing, US firms are creating their own future competition. While this happens in the US as well, intellectual property protections are weaker in these developing countries, increasing the risk.

At a minimum, US companies should be careful about outsourcing any work that they consider to be part of a competitive advantage for their firm.

Re:"Outsourcing"

[geoffspear]

Yeah, and anyone who works for Sony in the US should feel very guilty about taking the jobs of the Japanese workers who really deserve them, too. It's an abomination.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[HumanTorch]

Yes, one of the original tenets of capitalism, mobility of labour, has been turned on its head now. Because the days of mass migrations are effectively over, labour is relatively immobile and can no longer effectively compete for the highest wage on a global scale. Conversely, because of globalization, capital has become increasingly mobile and is allowed to shop around for the lowest wage they can find, driving down wages everywhere. I think this bodes ill for workers in general, and I can only hope that labour unions arise in the wake of the continued global wave of corporate slash and burn tactics until there are no exploitable labour markets left.

Re:"Outsourcing"

[leviramsey]

When Americans speak of "outsourcing" in this context they mean "out" as in "out of the country".

Any American who thinks that's the definition of outsourcing is an idiot who deserves to live in a cardboard box full of their own filth.

Outsourcing does not in any way shape or form imply anything about offshoring. Outsourcing is simply contracting to others work that you used to do in-house. Now, the place you go to outsource may be to Delhi, but it might as well be Denver, so far as the term "outsourcing" is concerned.

Re:whoa

[dasmegabyte]

I wouldn't say "brainwashed." I am a child of the '80s educated in the '90s and I know a lot of people who have a healthy attitude towards communism. My father, a staunch Dittohead, is one of them. He thinks communism is stupid, but not exactly "evil."

After all, the 1950s "Communism Is Evil" campaign in the media gave way to a massive "pity our Russian brothers" campaign, signified in the east by Perestroika and in the west by, um, Billy Joel's Leningrad. We watched Russia fall apart, watched China become basically a big factory for western goods, and watched the capitalist nations' prosperity rise and fall while the communists suffered massive problems with their supply chain.

I think the "brainwashed" American viewpoint is that communism tends to de-evolve quickly into petty dictatorship, because every time it's been attempted it has evolved thusly. Communism's government control afford easy nepotism and favoratism, making it more difficult for the common man to succeed. Ask an American these days wwhy communism is "bad," and that's what they'll tell you -- it runs crosswise of the Jansenist "American Dream." The whole "communists want to kill Americans" drivel of McCarthy died long before Roy Cohn.

Of course, the offshoot of this is that communism has tainted many other progressive social practices, with some people placing every idea from unionization to government health care in the "communist" bucket. Which makes it easier to ignore potential solutions. Shit, I consider myself a fairly independent thinker, but when some cat would hand me a "Communism Now!" pamphlet, I'd make sure it found itself nessled gently in the recycle bin.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[overunderunderdone]

Exactly, along with the simple notion that IBM's American dollars are fueling the Indian economy instead of our own. You can't pour water out of one glass into another without the water level in the first glass going down quite a bit.

I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusions but I take issue with this statement. it is not a "simple" notion, it is a "simplistic" one and it is just plain wrong.

The size of the economy, unlike the water in your glass, is not fixed, it grows at a variable rate (and on occasion it can shrink) influenced by a wide range of factors. It is likely that outsourcing to India has a net positive effect on the rate of growth of the world economy. It is even possible (though perhaps less likely) that it has a net positive effect on the American economy - that the growth in the American economy from lower IT costs freeing up money to invest elsewhere generates more money and jobs than those lost by IT professionals. Of course such a net benefit would have broad, marginal effects across the entire economy and be hard to attribute specifically to outsourcing (everybody pays slightly lower prices for stuff, on the aggregate new jobs and wealth are created as a result). The costs on the other hand are felt deeply by a distinct group (IT professionals that lost their job)

Re:My question is....

[foobar77]

I set up a software development center for our company in India (Bangalore) in 1993-94. Before choosing India, I considered China (Shenzen)/Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Phillipines, Russia, etc. I visited India, Singapore and Shenzen to meet local business and goverment officials. In the end, I chose India. In the end, there was no contest for three reasons -

I found many talented software developers with real world product experience. China and Russia has very smart programmers, but with no clue what a product is about.

They all spoke English in India. We could work directly with the engineers rather than through interpreters. (India is the 2nd largest English speaking country in the world, after the US.)

The country has a tradition of democracy and (relative and improving) free enterprise. The government bureaucrats want to help rather than cream off a share. (This wasn't true before the early 1990s).

It will take these other countries some years to duplicate these fundamental factors. I don't think there is a near-term threat to India's strengths in software development.

Re:whoa

[IgnoramusMaximus]

You mean this gentleman [trentu.ca] brought these [hartford-hwp.com] kinds of riches to Chile?

You dork, whatever damage Allende did economically and no amount of self-indulgence by self-congratulatory but tiny wealthy minority of today's Chile who benefited from Pinochet's doings can possibly justify what that bastard and his backers did. You are just a brain-dead neocon who believes that obtaining "wealth" is the purpose of the universe and no cost in human lives, pain or misery is too great to achieve that goal for the priviledged few.

Re:Quality of Medical Care

[michael_cain]

A friend of mine's aunt ended up having open heart surgery for a valve replacement in Baroda India. She had it at a private surgicenter with excellent Indian U.S. trained physicians with follow-up and post-op ICU care for less than $8000. The equivalent cost in the USA would have been $50k minimum with ICU days costing another $9k-$15k per DAY, with additional costs for the anesthesiologists and for the surgeons.

Considering the local costs of living that are described elsewhere in these comments, is this so out of line? Those comments indicate that an upper-middle-class lifestyle costs about $12,000 per year over there. $8,000 is two-thirds of that. Suppose an upper-middle-class lifestyle in the US requires an income of $90,000 (some would suggest that the cost is higher than that). Two-thirds of that is $60,000, which is on the same order as what you cite as the expense in the US. The interesting difference appears to be the difference in the availability of insurance. Roughly 60% of the US population is covered by some form of health insurance, either private or provided by the government. What percentage of the Indian population is covered? Since someone with an income of $90,000 in the US can afford health insurance (barring cases with expense, chronic conditions, who can't buy private insurance at any price), I assume that someone making $12,000 in India can also afford health insurance.

Re:Where's India going to get the money?

[Tackhead]

> Having said all that, I'll surrender up an observation for the Indian IT force; take it for what it's worth, which might be much or little. One of the major reasons why America got to be where it is today has to do with the spirit of its founding, in that those who came here and spread west did so in the pursuit of that which they couldn't have achieved back in England, or in the more established of the colonies, and then the States. They were willing to throw off virtually everything in an effort to reach for the brass ring, overturning centuries of "that's the way it's done" in favor of "this is what works".

Interesting. Reading the interview with the Indian IT geeks, I had exactly the same thought.

I came to a conclusion opposite to yours, however: The Indian geeks interviewed in that example are the very embodiment of the work ethic that once made America great.

If, as it appears to me, that work ethic no longer exists in North America anymore, then Indian companies (and Filipino companies to which Indian grunt-level work is outsourced) are gonna be the place to invest in the next decade.

Indians: You're welcome to take "my" job the day my employer decides you can do my job faster, better, and cheaper than I can. Because when that day comes, you'll have earned my job. Rock on!

And that stands regardless of whether I end up keeping my job, goofing around on my Playstation-6 in the mansion I bought with the returns from my investments in transnational corporations, or on a park bench with a sign saying "Will Code For Food".

Older computer users?

[kkovach24]

After reading about government officials that are afraid that the keyboard might shock them, a thought occured to me. How accepting of computers and technology are the older generations in India? I know there are plenty of older folks here that just don't want to have anything to do with PCs and new technologies related to PCs. Are there similar feelings in India and how might that effect the insourcing?

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[RalphSlate]

Yes, that's excactly it.

Here are the "advantages" that India has over the US.

1) A lot of poor people and no social programs supporting them. Think of how much of your paycheck goes to Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and other social programs. And think of how much of your employer's payroll taxes go to that stuff too. And then think about all the other taxes you pay to support people who aren't employed at livable wages. If your pay was cut by that amount, and your employers taxes were cut by that amount, you'd be in exactly the same place but making 30% less. We are no longer in a position to choose to have social programs. Competition from abroad is dictating that we eliminate all of them.

2) The servants. I think I could work harder if I could pay someone $35/month to do all my personal work. But having servants, especially low-paid servants, is frowned upon here in the US, and people won't generally work for so little since the government supports them at a much higher level. But if we eliminate our social programs, then maybe people will be willing to be our servants once again.

3) Medical. It sounds like the care you get in India is cheaper, but you get less too. People in this country need to ask some ethical questions, for example, "how much should be spent to save a life". When someone spends $300k to keep their 90 year old grandmother alive for an extra month, perhaps that is excessive. So we may have to make some hard choices (for example, should we spend a couple hundred thousand saving your baby that is born 2 months premature) in order to get our costs in line with India. In essence, we should not save the lives of anyone not capable of being a productive member of society. Any country that does will have higher costs.

But here's the insidious problem with this all. Capitalism is designed to LOWER costs. That means paying the least amount of benefits possible. Since people in other countries have it far worse than we do, the only way we can compete is to lower our benefits to their level. We can't rely on that "productivity" factor because it is no longer US Corporations vs. Foreign Corporations -- it's US Corporations against the workers that cost the most. Any innovation is immediately shared with the low-cost workers, and the benefit is negated.

So in other words, the only way to compete with India is to become exactly like India, or to get India to be exactly like us. But the latter won't work, because our corporations will just move the work to some other country. That means the former will be the more likely outcome.

Is everyone comfortable with that?

Offshored, Not Outsourced

[Nintendork]

Now our interviews are being outsourced

Actually, it was offshored, not outsourced. These are two completely unrelated terms. Offshored means that the operation moved to another country. Outsourced means that another company was hired to perform the function.

For example, Microsoft outsources some of their tech support to Convergys. Both companies offshore to India for some of their tech support.

The only similarity is that both offshoring and outsourcing save the company money. Outsourced workers get paid less and get less benefits becuase they work in a call center environment (As close to a sweat shop as you can get in the industry). When offshoring, the savings are even more dramatic due to economic differences.

Generally, outsourcing in the U.S. or Canada is transparent to the consumer and is a proven method to save money, even in the long term. Offshoring on the other hand is a relatively new venture with few (If any) long term studies. As a techie that has worked with Indians, I have no qualms about their ability. It's not like we're genetically superior in the U.S. The only problem I have is that when I'm not screwing around on Slashdot, my time is valuable and wasting it trying to talk to someone who has poor verbal English skills is a kick in the crotch from a company we do business with. I would have had us purchase something other than Dell if it weren't for their recent move back to the states for business support. Their move back to the states tells me that they got scared as companies took their high dollar purchases elsewhere and/or threatened to do so. Another problem with offshoring, I believe, is that the majority of people in the states think that someone in a poorer country will be less able to help them which gives Indians an unfair stigma. In the end, we'll see how decreased customer satisfaction impacts the precious bottom line and that in turn will dictate where the jobs are.

I know this blurb doesn't count when it comes to programming jobs. Sorry, but the only chance programmers have to compete against offshoring is to have employers that believe they're worth the relative premium or hope that legal issues (IP, malware, espionage, goverment secrets, etc.) scare the jobs away from offshoring. Personally, I'm ignorant of the laws in India that protect corporations. Maybe someone could comment on this?

Sorry my response to your comment is on a serious note. What started as a simple correction turned into a complete package of my thoughts on these corporate trends.

-Lucas

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about where you are, but I can tell you what the teacher I work with buys out of her pocket: dry-erase markers so the kids can work on the board. And probably tissues.

And using a calculator for anything prior to algebra, if not geometry, is just rediculous.

"Where is the government going to get the money?"

[El]

Can't answer that, but there are a lot of people on slashdot hard at working trying to make it cost less money -- commoditization of the computer industry may ultimately be the greatest help for development of Indian IT.

Re:whoa

[Rotten168]

Not in any Western sense are they "capitalist" nations.

Most dictatorships are put into place to favor the cronies of who is in charge of the government, therefor most new businesses require some kind of sanction from the state. In a "true" capitalist nation, all that is required of new business ventures is capital.

The key difference is that government cronies don't like competition whereas capitalism thrives on it.

Re:whoa

[twilightzero]

The anarchists believe, indeed, in an organized anarchist society in which little or no formal government would be needed, since it would be replaced by people's self government

I would love a state of true anarchy...except for one little proble. You see, it's been proven time and time and time again that people generally have no self governance. People, on the whole, are greedy selfish nasty little bastards. Deep down inside, after basic needs are met most people you know probably care more about their self-profit than they do about anything related to others. On top of that, they have no built-in governor that tells them "this is enough, you don't need to be richer". This is why we get greedy businesses like Enron, Worldcom, even PTL & Jim Baker. And it's not just money either, the same thing when taken to extremes leads to Hitler, Castro, Stalin, Saddam, and all their brethren in corrupt power wielding.

That's why we need government. To protect the people from themselves and each other. Because without a system of government, most people pursue single-mindedly - and without regard for others - profit and power for themselves.

Options

[swillden]

There are plenty:

• Private school. Not actually as expensive as you might think. My son was doing very poorly in public school for a variety of reasons, so he now attends a private school that costs about $3K per year (it's interesting to compare that to the nearly $5K per year the public schools spend per student). We do have to drive him to and from school every day, the facilities are run down, the computers are old and the playground doesn't have the coolest new Big Toy. However, the classes are small (8-10 students) the teachers are excellent and dedicated (my son's teacher gave us her home and cell phone numbers, with instructions to call any time, day or night), the curriculum is aggressive (he is in fourth grade and mastering material not usually covered until junior high) and the kids are well cared for (they even get hot freshly-prepared breakfast and lunch, not the pre-packaged crap passed out at the local public schools). Worth EVERY penny.
• Home school. In most areas the public schools will work with you to make sure your children have access to all of the same extracurricular opportunities as the rest of the kids, and will help out with teaching materials as well. It's not that hard to construct socialization opportunities as well.
• A different public school. Check out the nearby schools and see if one of them would work out better. You will probably have to arrange for transportation to and from school every day.
• Raise Holy Hell. Tell the teacher that his/her approach is wrong and inadequate and that you want your child taught differently. If the teacher doesn't shape up, go to the principal and request a transfer to a different teacher. If the principal doesn't agree, go to the district and the school board. If you still don't get what you want, look at the other options above and considering running for the school board or other political post to fix things.

If you want your child to have a good education, it is within your power. You do not have to accept whatever your child's current teacher wants to do. Doing it is not necessarily easy and if none of the above options solve the problem you might want to consider moving somewhere that your child can get a decent education. In my case it was relatively easy -- our local school is pretty good as long as your child fits the required mold. Two of my children seem to be getting along fine there and it didn't cost me much to address the fact that my oldest didn't fit in.

Oh, and one more benefit to private schools: It's unbelievable how nice it is to be treated like an important customer rather than an irritating obstacle. There's a subtle but important difference in attitude between a teacher who realizes that you pay his/her salary directly and one who gets paid by the state/county. My other two children's teachers are competent, and nice people who like to see interested parents, but the tone is "This is how I approach my classroom and your child's education and how I'd like you to work with me" rather than "This is how I propose to work with your child, what do you think?"