The Unhappy World of IT Professionals 981
npistentis writes "According to an article on ZDNet.com, only 1 in 7 IT professionals rate themselves as "very happy" with their chosen profession- which stands in stark contrast to one in three hairdressers, plumbers and chefs, and one in four florists. But then again, very few plumbers have to deal with users who consistently download BonziBuddy, blindly click on suspicious email attachments and use their cd trays as cupholders." Of course, it should be noted that by and large IT professionals earn more money then most other jobs - which I suppose is once again a warning of money != happiness.
1 in 7 :) (Score:4, Insightful)
Fortunately I'm part of that "1 in 7" and I think this comment has a lot to do with it: A "pure IT job" of sitting in front of a screen all day would drive me bonkers. I like having to physically get into our big SGI machines, re-routing fiber & Cat-5, mounting new things in racks, etc. If I had a "screwdriver boy" to do all that while I sat at a console and worked on the equipment through the network my job satisfaction would go down 50% at least.
That all said, I'll wager that when the "DotCom Boom" was happening, many of the "other 6 of the 7" got into IT for the money. If you don't love what you do then get out of it.
What?! (Score:5, Insightful)
But then again, no IT guys have to work in feces in a sweaty, humid, tiny room. STFU you little baby.
My philosophy (Score:3, Insightful)
Geek Culture (Score:5, Insightful)
Ouch (Score:4, Insightful)
Pretty sad that there's a higher percentage of people that are happy fixing toilets clogged with shit then the perecentage of people supporting computer users....
Of course (Score:5, Insightful)
If plumbing, hairdressing or whatever becomes the next *big* thing, I am sure a lot of people would join the bandwagon without having to necessarily like it. And consequently, the percentage of people disliking this job would go up.
The cliche' goes again. Do what you like or you will forced to like what you do.
Odd way to report the results (Score:5, Insightful)
And by the way: (Score:1, Insightful)
Helping users is no problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Job != Life either (Score:5, Insightful)
It should also be noted that not being happy in your job doesn't mean you're not happy with your life, either. For example, last year I left a terrible but very well paid job. Thought the job was appalling, but the money I was making from it allowed me to get on with my life in other areas, so overall I was having a good time.
Be wary of describing people as just "IT Professionals" or "Hairdressers". They're not 2D stereotypes, they're full-blown people with all the complexity that implies.
Cheers,
Ian
That's not the real conclusion (Score:4, Insightful)
hours worked? dumb customers? (Score:2, Insightful)
This, I would assume, is a reason why there are so many of us unhappy (I am not unhappy, which is why I work constantly) - but we don't get over time for the >40 hrs/week worked - do the other "happier" professions qualify for overtime? I believe at least one of them does.
A lot also has to do with the people you interact with. Florists, for example (as mentioned), don't have to deal with people watering their flowers with battery acid and come to you saying "I didn't do anything, it just died".
Re:Is it just me? (Score:3, Insightful)
I use to be an IT pro (Score:5, Insightful)
re: geek culture (Score:4, Insightful)
ed
We're not all tech support. (Score:4, Insightful)
I would guess that most IT professionals are not in tech support. I've not seen numbers on it, but if you lump together programmers, DBA's, web developers, analysts, etc, vs. sysads and tech support I bet you get something like an 80/20 ratio. Anyone seen stats on it?
But, for those in tech support, I think there are inherent conflicts. People attracted to tech are often more introverted. You take people like that and force them to deal with users who know nothing, are resentful of their utter dependence on others, want immediate results, and blame tech support for the problem in the first place, and you get BOFH [iinet.net.au].
IT is a largely intellectual field (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, we are that shallow. Nothing wrong with having some hot women in the office.
Re:what makes IT professionals unhappy (Score:3, Insightful)
I have job security because i work for state government (state government don't lay off employees)
Aaah, that's just simply not right...
This again only underscores that government employees are not motivated to perform, because they can rely on their "job security".
One would hope that the government would strive to become better through becoming more efficient, and more productive.
If you are not dealing with extremely confidential information (such as national secrets), there is no reason to keep a policy that guarantees you job safety within the state government.
Re:Become happy : switch to Linux! (Score:1, Insightful)
Joe Luser decides to install spyware on his shiny new Linux box. The (hopefully) well-evolved GUI pops up a warning that says something like, "You must be running as a root user to install this software, because it wants to modify your security settings and may make your computer vulnerable to worms, viruses, and hackers. Running as root is very dangerous, and is not recommended unless you know exactly what you're doing." This scares the shit out of Joe Luser (as it should) and he doesn't install the software. Problem solved.
Linux and other Unices are inherently more secure than Windows, always have been, and probably always will be. It's not just the popularity, it's the code. Deal with it.
Re:Of course (Score:3, Insightful)
If plumbing, hairdressing or whatever becomes the next *big* thing, I am sure a lot of people would join the bandwagon without having to necessarily like it. And consequently, the percentage of people disliking this job would go up.
This is really overrated. A lot of people (myself included) have loved computers since they were children (I'm 28, started programming at 8) and are unhappy because of the job market (I am employeed, but it sucks seeing so many of my IT peers unemployed), and because of job security...I've wanted nothing but to write code for the rest of my life, it's not looking like a viable option anymore. now that *is* depressing because I never pictured myself doing anything else. Where else is my Comp Sci degree going to take me?
Re:We're not all tech support. (Score:3, Insightful)
Ya think I would get paid better.
Overwork makes people unhappy! (Score:5, Insightful)
New studies have indicated that working people as far as you can stretch them *makes them unhappy*!
I could never figure out why the employment situation in the US is so screwed up.
We have this kind of go-go-GO-OR-YOU-FAIL-DAMMIT-GO! mentality that keeps being pushed. I was talking to some folks about the kind of hours that people starting off in financial services or the legal world can expect to work -- the hours are *stupid*. Sure, the jobs pay well, but what do you do with the money? Buy a bigger TV or a more expensive car, neither of which you get to use because you're at work most of the time?
Furthermore, I claim that you can't be productive at the number of hours that people work. People cannot work 80 productive hours a week. They can push themselves to be *at* work 80 hours a week, but there's no way that they're getting that much done.
France and Germany both seem to have much more liberal hours-of-work and vacation policies. So what if you make a bit less money if you aren't beating yourself to death trying to claw your way ahead?
We currently have unemployment problems in the US. Lots of people out of work. We also have lots of people that are well-paid but overworked. It just seems like there should be, you know, an obvious solution to this. Hire more people and pay a lower pay rate.
yeah, like the sysadmin that worked for me... (Score:5, Insightful)
1 reboot the machine
2 re-image the machine
3 replace the machine
4 blame it on a virus or a microsoft bug
5 ignore it
then the users call me, and I fix it - usually something simple like a checkbox not checked or a DNS entry not typed in...
And this guy was MCSE "certified". Yeah Right.
I rode him so much I am sure he was not happy with his job, but like other posters have said - he got into the field for the money but didn't have a clue about computers.
Lord I am glad he's gone!
My interest has waned (Score:5, Insightful)
I am a software engineer. My job is boring. I spend 8-10 hours/day staring at a computer screen. A friend asked me to help him buy a computer a while back. He asked me since I was a software guy, and was supposed to know about these things. I couldnt help him. I knew NOTHING about current computers, printers, monitors etc on the market.
So now I sit here coding in C++ and making pretty UML diagrams all day, but have absolutly no interest in it anymore. I do it because it pays well and I am reasonably good at it. I dont do it because I enjoy it. I would love to quit and do something I enjoy, but then I realize that I wouldnt have as much disposable cash for other things. So I am resigning myself to wasting 40+ hours/week of my life so I can enjoy the remaining 80 or so hours (sleep is important).
When I was in school I went to a research oriented university. There was some cutting edge stuff being developed that never ceased to hold my attention. Now I am designing software for systems that are nowhere near the level of sophistication as what I was used to at school. Its just all so bland now.
Re:1 in 7 :) (Score:5, Insightful)
And, to generalize in a different direction...
(Was that too dark?)
money != power (Score:5, Insightful)
Power disparity in the workplace is a big factor. Here we are, we know what is going to work best, what is going to save money, what is going to make people's lives easier, what should be automated and what it a waste of time, and we have PHB's telling us they know best, decisions based on superficials or unneccesary complications, spending based on budget cycles not needs, systems too powerful or too weak. And we shut up and do it, since there are plenty out of work who want your job. Then we have to tiptoe around [L]user egos, baby boomers who fancy themselves technologists but forget how to make a printer the default.
There was a study of "determinants of health" conducted in the early 90's in 5 different industrialized nations, which discovered that power disparity was at least as big a factor on well-being (heart disease, depression etc.) as wealth/poverty or difficulty of job--upper middle managers who felt stifled were worse off than low-income workers with relative independence and greater unfettered responsibilty. Poverty=poor health studies may be weighted wrongly due to these findings: it's not just about money, power on the interpersonal scale counts strongly.
Re:What?! (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes your coworkers (lusers) may reinstall bonzi everyday but as a plumber, people urinate, and shit, and whatever down the toilet everyday, and you have to work in it! Wouldn't you think that gets more annoying?
The shit just keeps on coming, whichever job you may be working.
It's funny that ... (Score:2, Insightful)
The other 1 out of 7 actually know how to do something, so technically could be said to be doing a 'hands on' job as opposed to a pointless paper-pushing type job
Apples and Oranges. (Score:2, Insightful)
I can think of a few differences between IT personnel and the other service-oriented professions listed that, in my mind, make the comparison between them invalid.
First, consider that when something goes wrong with your plumbing, fixing it is a relatively simple task--maybe not easy, but not something that would take years of college to figure out in and of itself. Fixing the problem efficiently, on the other hand, is something altogether different and is something not everyone is cut out for.
Second, people can usually expect immediate results from a hairdresser, a plumber, or a florist. The hairdresser gives you a perm; the florist produces the arrangement you want; the plumber fixes your leak or your backed-up sewer line; and for the most part, all these jobs are done in a matter of a few hours, in contrast to the days that it can take to fix a PC (most of that time spent waiting for parts from the manufacturer if the system's under warranty).
Third, most people can tell a plumber or a hairdresser or a florist exactly what the problem is. The majority of people, on the other hand, cannot describe in specific terms what's wrong with their PC. It's not because they're inherently stupid--it's because there are so many things that can go wrong inside a PC, between the hardware and the software. The fact that they can't precisely explain the problem makes them feel stupid, which in turn makes them feel more frustrated. And guess who gets to bear the brunt of that frustration?
Finally, I doubt plumbers ever have to tell a homeowner, "Sorry, but I can't find that leak you're talking about, but give me a call if you notice any more small ponds in your kitchen."
MONEY == HAPPY (Score:1, Insightful)
Plumbers charge rates of 45-65/hr. Show me where those
IT jobs are that pay more than than!!!!
Hairdressers get paid 40-50/styling with the ability to do 2
in an hour, and they get tips!!
Every get a tip from an IT manager???
Paid more? I really doubt it. Yes, 2 years ago. Sure, I knew guys making 200-300k/yr consulting, but now they've been unemployed for 2 years, so averages to 65-100k.
And you will never see plumbing or hairstyling being outsourced!!!
Programming is the funnest job in the world, until those A-holes in the suits step in and try and nickle&dime you to death for lower wages.
-my $.02
Re:What?! (Score:2, Insightful)
it's what's popuar right now, so of course you are going to have a lot of people doing it work they don't enjoy.
when the next popular field comes along, that will also be flooded with miserable employees.
wash. rinse. repeat.
Re:We're not all tech support. (Score:4, Insightful)
The disconnect between value provided to the business (which, despite the stereotypes, is quite high in my experience) and the perception/treatment of the "IT nerds" (what a contemptuous term BTW) is what causes a lot of the unhappiness.
sPh
[1] Yes, I know: you can cite a counterexample. And everyone gets the occational humiliation, particularly in smaller companies. But no - not on the daily basis that the IT people get.
IT is a step-parent job... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Money does not equal happiness (Score:2, Insightful)
How do you end up working 12-14 hour days? Are you just doing support and fixing mission-critical servers? It seems that if you are doing new projects, you might benefit from giving your bosses reasonable estimates based on 8 hour days. If they don't think it's fast enough, ask 'em to hire an assistant for you.
I dunno. I just don't understand unpaid overtime. If I stay late, I take some time off next week. I never work more than 8 hours a day when averaged out. Why is it so hard?
90% of all statistics are useless! (Score:2, Insightful)
also your conclusion shouldn't be that money != happiness, it should be that generaly the more you make at your job the less likely you are to like it, your personal life may be very happy, which is the definition that counts for 99% of people
Re:1 in 7 :) (Score:5, Insightful)
8% of teachers are happy??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Different situations (Score:5, Insightful)
How many of us in IT want to do a *good* job? How many of us would like to show what we can do and the quality by which we can do it? Alas, how often is the time there? Instead you do your second best, if you are lucky, to meet insane deadline.
Contrast this with a hairdresser or any of those other positions. Those people are hired to attract customers. Take for example a plumber. When something breaks most people will trade time for a proper fix so this doesn't happen again. Those people can take pride in their jobs and are generally expected to exhibit their creativity.
Very few in IT are in a position to take their time to adhere to best practices when managers are screaming as a group to have *something* now and not later. When their desire to rush doesn't work out, who is to blame? Not them! At the end of the day it is hard to feel good about whatever you've done especially when you know if you had a bit more time you could have done a better job.
Re:Tell me about it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Would florists be happy if people kept coming back and complaining that all their new plants had died (from not watering or feeding them, and keeping them in dark rooms), and that the florist had sold them crappy plants? I doubt it.
If people played with their plumbing without turning off the water, and the plumber had to fix it for free, or if they put tabasco sauce and steak spice and a half shaker of salt on their jello and the chef had to replace it.
The problem is that people do stupid shit with their computers (that they don't know is stupid shit), and then IT professionals have to fix it (for free, every time, because they're on contract). If IT services were contracted out and cost $50/hr, you can bet people would start being more careful about downloading shit onto their computer after a few hundred dollars.
--Dan
Re:WRONG! (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, how does your theory apply there?
sPh
4 out of the 7 got in for the money... (Score:2, Insightful)
There are 2 kinds of developers - the ones love and understand developing - and the ones who really don't get it, and just got into development to make money during the go go dot com days. You know the type - the ones who don't understand even basic concepts like hashtables - the ones who make you grind your teeth noiselessly at having to put up with their ineptness.
I am pretty sure a large portion of those unhappy IT people are the latter kind of developers. They won't find any sympathy from me, I have had to deal with too many of them.
Just my $0.02 -naeem
Re:My interest has waned (Score:2, Insightful)
Sure, I still program, but it has taken a backseat to high level problem solving. High level problem solving will get you noticed as well.
I hear you on the hardware - I hate computer hardware now, even though I used to be a big upgrade geek. Now, I never use the computer at home anymore.
That's what IT professionals do! (Score:3, Insightful)
Plumbers have to deal with people who flush super balls down the toilet and turn off the heat during winter break, causing pipes to freeze and burst. Do plumbers complain about this? No! That's how they make a living!
Re:WRONG! (Score:1, Insightful)
Never work for a software development company. Try to impose that stuff, and you would be lucky to escape the building with your life. No installing applications? Great...no testing.
I find that kind of policy generally stupid anyways. Perhaps I would impose it for people like secretaries, but there are PLENTY of good reasons to let people install any software they want. If you implemented that kind of policy and somebody wanted to install a piece of software, what would you do? Install it for them? What if people wanted new software installed five times a day. Guess what...while they're waiting for you to arrive they're going to get annoyed. When you do arrive, guess who they'll take it out on. You, of course. So now you're back to the same situation as before, except now even the people that know what they're doing are mad at you.
No, sorry. That policy is OK sometimes, but it is stupid to think it should be universal.
Its not always users (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not the work that makes me dis-satisfied with IT... 90% of the time its caused by my fellow IT colleagues. Am I alone?
The Deferred Life Plan (Score:3, Insightful)
The Deferred Life Plan
Randy claims the above plan is a surefire recipe for unhappiness, because Step 2, the happy part, will seldom be reached. Step 1 will almost always take up all your lifespan.
Like most geeks, I started out in IT because I thought I was on step 2. Over time, it got so boring & bland I was certain I was on step 1. When I finally realized I was never going to get to step 2 again, I quit. Now, I'm living the "Whole Life Plan" -"Do what you want to do".
Re:1 in 7 :) (Score:5, Insightful)
Ditto. I work in a small shop (300 or so users) and we have four people in our group. In some places you would have your help desk people, your network people, your pc techs, and so forth. Not here though.
We do a little bit of all of it so things stay interesting. I do primarily work in front of a screen all day but I value highly the time I get to go out and do other things. We run our cables, we help the CAD users, it's variety that keeps me in the "satisfied with my job" group.
I once had someone on Slashdot remark that if I was out swapping out a users broken mouse then I wasn't a network administrator which made me laugh. I bet the majority of those happy in their profession work in smaller shops where they get to do more than a single set of tasks.
Re:Not many professionals are happy. (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe they're just happy because they're too stupid to realise they're not...
Re:My interest has waned (Score:3, Insightful)
Bow down before the almighty dollar! You put your "things" before your happiness. Consider what your life would be like if you had less stuff and more job satisfaction. Would you be happy?
Comparing Apples to Oranges (Score:3, Insightful)
Given that the average IT professional has a college degree, comparing the salary of an IT person with that of a hair dress, plumber or any other trade degree job is comparing apples to oranges. The salaries suck, especially after dumping $100k into your college degree.
Re:What?! (Score:3, Insightful)
sPh
Re:I'm happy with my job (Score:5, Insightful)
I LOVE my CAREER, I HATE my JOB
by that I mean I love doing what I have chosen to do for my life, I just hate working at the current place of employment. That has all changed now that I was laid off, spent 10 months goofing off, traveling, testing the waters elsewhere(photography), and I am now back with a better place and love both my career and my job
Re:My interest has waned (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:1 in 7 :) (Score:5, Insightful)
It's generally understood that IT pays "a lot" of money. Whenever there is an opportunity to make a good living at a job that's not back-breaking or dangerous, you are going to attract people who are pretty much only in it for the money.
On the other hand, nobody becomes a florist just for the money. The only people who become flortists are the sort of people who need to be doing a job that brings them contentment and happiness, and really like working with flowers, regardless of the low pay.
So, in my mind, the real shocking story is that 2 out of 3 florists hate their job.
In the interest of full disclosure, I'm one of the 1 in 7. I enjoy IT office work.
Re:Not many professionals are happy. (Score:2, Insightful)
Okay, most of this seems to make sense, but why are plumbers relatively more happy than electricians?
Is it the profession? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What?! (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, it's even worse than that. Tech support is in no wise different from working at any job where you're interacting with the Great Mass of Idiots. Motel desk clerk, 7-Eleven counter guy, McDonald's, you name it. They're ALL THE SAME, INCLUDING TECH SUPPORT. Zillions of fucking idiots who think that they've somehow "got you cornered" and vent all over you for shit they caused themselves.
But there's a catch.
In any of the "standard" jobs where you deal with the public, you knew you'd be doing this when you walked in the door looking to fill out an application.
Tech support folks oftentimes have no clue where they're going to wind up, and if that's not bad enough, being technical types in the first place causes them to be less than, ummm...shall we say 'robust,' when it comes to dealing with the slings and arrows of the Great Shoal of Idiots.
Net result: You've got somebody who's poorly adapted to deal with the emotional stresses (vastly worse than mere physical stresses, unless those consist in taking bullets to the chest or some such similar) of working with the public, working with the public. The plumber goes home from work and washes his hands. No more shit. The McDonald's clerk goes home from work secure in the knowledge that all them assholes can no longer get to him. No more shit.
The TECH WORKER goes home from work, and grinds away mentally over all that happened and all that's going to happen again tomorrow and slowly goes down the emotional drain over a period of weeks, months, or perhaps even years, before finally blowing a fuse and bailing out.
People who belittle the effects of this sort of thing are unable to integrate the fact that identical stimuli will have differing effects on different people, and in their ignorance of the actualities of the situation can only make things worse overall.
Yes indeed, tech work is one of the most corrosive environments you could work at, and if you're not adapted to it the way a weight lifter adapts to plucking large masses of iron off the floor, it's going to be the death of you.
I wonder what those stats would be like (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Tell me about it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not many professionals are happy. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Of course (Score:3, Insightful)
For me, it is depressing to know that a significant percentage of the people in my class *are* doing it for the money, and really don't have much of a clue and/or don't particularily care about the subject. It is extremely frustrating to try to work with people like that because for a large part they are willing to freeload on others to do their work, slipping through using tricks and (as my university puts it) "excessive collaboration".
These are the people that will be unhappy when they get a tech job, because they are unhappy with doing the tech work at school to begin with.
Unhappynes and reconision. (Score:4, Insightful)
I like IT Programming, Administration, even helping people with all the dumb little problems. But if I dont get any thanks or apreaction at all it feels like I am not doing anything good.
Well said (Score:3, Insightful)
I know exactly how you feel. There's about 15 minutes of fun rolling out a new application to users, then it's back to the salt mines.
The only thing I'd add is I think I just got tired of the fight after a while and burned out. Made up my mind this is my last IT job...at least for a while Not even going to accept another position on the same contract. If I ever do go back to IT it will be on my terms, not someone else's.
Re:8% of teachers are happy??? (Score:3, Insightful)
Teachers have to deal with the great, immature idiot masses.
I'm not suprised. I would never consider a job in teaching unless it was at university or college level. I know the kind of pupils we used to be, and I hear discipline is worse now than before. No way. No fucking way.
Kjella
Re:Tell me about it. (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't get it; is it done for free or does is the IT person(s) paid a blanket fee to cover all incidents?
In the case of an internal department doing it for 'free' this is bad internal accounting. The IT department should bill its customers for time even if this is all internal paperwork where no real cash changes hands. The IT department's budget becomes paid by other departments who get paid by external customers.
Re:8% of teachers are happy??? (Score:3, Insightful)
1) You take on the burden of society's failure to instill basic virtues in children like respect, patience, discipline, etc.
2) There is almost no "down time" on the job, you always have to be looking out for the kids to make sure that they aren't talking, fighting, vandalizing, cheating, etc. You do have a planning period but you almost always work through it to keep up. If you miss something, that makes you look bad.
3) Expect to work 12-14 hour days during the school year if you want to get everything done properly. Including after school meethings with , students that want free tutoring after not paying attention in class, and parents who think their kids deserve better grades. The "summers off" thing in s whole myth. You get maybe 2 weeks and they you have to start attending inservices and possibly classes (most of the time at your expense) if you don't want to look like a slacker.
4) For individuals with a college degree and the amount of work and stress involved, the pay is pretty measly
5) Unless they go into administration, there is just about no room for advancement Yeah, your pay increases by about 2% every year, regardless of how good or poor a job you do. Whoopdeedo.
6) The administration often kowtows to pushy parents - changing grades, not supporting disciplinary measures, etc.
7) You get blamed(maybe just collectively) for the education failures of public schools
I'm not sure what the solution to these problems are. I wouldn't advocate going to back to the 1950s with uniforms and switches etc. but I do believe that parents don't pay enough attention to their kids during the critical ages, probably because both parents now work, and for longer hours. And the school system pays the price. I wasn't perfect when I was younger, but if I tried to pull some of the stuff they try now I would have been whapped upside the head.
Re:Other stories too... (Score:3, Insightful)
That's funny, because it's the opposite of what my father always said. He' a pilot, and has been for forty plus years. He's flown fighters (back when they were real fighters), helicopters, and commercial planes of all sizes. He may not have liked every minute of his work, but he's always considered himself reasonably happy and looks back on his life with no regrets about his choice of career.
I used to call it the "subjective pay" concept. If I walk into work and walk out twelve hours later feeling like only six passed by because I was having a good time at it, I made more per (subjective) hour than if I worked only eight hours but watched the clock for twelve of that.
Assertiveness (Score:2, Insightful)
I wonder how many techs would be more content - and more in control of their own destinies - if they'd had some assertiveness and social skills training.
Andrew Klaassen
Re:That's what IT professionals do! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:My interest has waned (Score:2, Insightful)
What is interesting, at least for me, is doing new things. I started doing C programming with serial ports. Then did embedded systems. Then moved to java and RMI. Then did SQL and stored procedures. Then did threads.
And now? I do this XML encryption and digital certificates for web services. I moved to a new country - brazil - which also is new and challenging.
My point is that if I was still doing C with serial ports, I might hate my job too. Lots of people do the same thing for the same company, irrelevant of carrers, for years just because human nature is scared of change. And talk to any of those people and they'll likely say they hate their jobs, but are scared to leave. That's not bad, just normal.
iksrazal
From the perspective of one unemployed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Programmers in IT get treated poorly (Score:3, Insightful)
Horrors - you mean I can't make $90K/year playing in my digital sandbox?
Don't get me wrong, it is important to stay current and do appropriate design work up front to identify appropriate technology for a project, but tossing new elements into your build because they are new is trolling for trouble. If you want to implement some new or emerging technology be prepared to do your homework on your own time or find an organization that is willing to accept the risk to their schedule and budget for the R&D.
Don't forget uncompensated overtime (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Programmers in IT get treated poorly (Score:3, Insightful)
What I wanted to point out is that my job where I sit in front of a screen all day has become boring. And that it's possible that I would be happier in a more hands-on job, like the post I replied to describes. I guess I could try applying for a support job here to lay cabling and setup servers. But the Ops guys look like they're working a lot harder and longer then me, and for about the same wages. So I think I'll stay here for now.
But you are right. Corporations don't want free-thinkers. They want fast and easy systems that they put up with little thinking needed by the programmer. I know, because I'm working on putting one of those systems in. They call it PeopleSoft. I call it a quick and dirty solution that will only need mind-numbing table edits and the minor Peoplecode updates. Constant mind-numbing table edits and Peoplecode updates. Just like the old Synon system...
I'd like to try going back to "craft" programming, as you called it. It's like what I did in college. At that time, everything was new. We were throwing anything we could think of together, an be amazed when it worked. And some of it worked really well. The final project was some of the most fun I've had as a programmer. About the only thing the advisor did was make sure we were on track to make the deadline. Other then that, we were free to code whatever we wanted, however we wanted. He didn't care how we did it, as long as it worked and was on time. I miss that. Now most of my work is nicely pre-packaged for me, spelled out how to do it. Except for when it isn't, and you have to hunt down the person who made the documentation to figure out what they meant, which may take a few days, but are still expected to follow the documentation exactly and deliver on time. Nobody ever does, but it's still expected.
So I'm still left with the same question that I need to ask myself. Should I start looking at different line of work, doing more physical hands-on work? Or should I continue in this field, and look for a job that's more free and creative? It's just something I have to work through myself. But it's still relieving to vent to complete strangers and know that I'm not the only one...
Re:It's the "Big Fraud" (Score:3, Insightful)
whoa............
dude
Just chill, man.
I'm certainly not a big advocate of this, but I think you need to get high...badly!
Re:What?! (Score:2, Insightful)
But you don't remember the average ones and the nice ones. You just let the assholes give us all a bad name. Maybe I should become an asshole, so you will remember me.
There for the love of money go I. (Score:1, Insightful)
Don't they? Ask your boss if he enjoys what he's doing, and does he want recognization of his efforts?
The answer will fall into two catagories:
Those who do their job for all the wrong reasons and are unhappy, but hide it well.
Those who actually enjoy what they're doing, but may have trouble understanding other people's motivations(1).
(1) I suspect you'll find that it's not the "love" part he's having difficulty with, but the "compensation for effort" part.
Re:Programmers in IT get treated poorly (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:My interest has waned (Score:3, Insightful)
Or you could just find a girl/woman that doesn't require money. Trust me, there are plenty -- I've met a bunch and married one.
Start by looking for those that don't like being referred to impersonally as "females."
Re:I'm happy with my job (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Programmers in IT get treated poorly (Score:5, Insightful)
Working with organizations requires the practices you so despise because of the many types of people that you must effectively communicate with. This is one of the reasons there is a certain disdain for programmers--they insist on being somewhat schitzoid, shying away from working with other people. I have heard this at EVERY interview I've had for fifteen years--"we hired you over the other candidates largely because you have social skills and can speak plain_fscking_English, which we hardly ever find in programmers." If you left or died, would someone else be able to continue your work or would it be more efficient to just start over? It's almost impossible to continue the work of an "artist." You can hardly fault anyone for encouraging practices that make continuity possible over mere aesthetic appreciation for the beautiful enigmas left by some mad scientist.
Re:Not many professionals are happy. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:1 in 7 :) (Score:4, Insightful)
Manage your career (Score:3, Insightful)
I've said it before: manage your career. Find out what you like to do and look for work that lets you do it. It's not always possible to get exactly where you want to be, but by working at it you can get close enough. And keep correcting so you stay on your chosen career path.
In your case I see the attitude that works well in safety-critical development. I am a software developer who works on medical instrumentation. Your attitude is exactly welcome in this kind of environment because we can't afford to screw up; so you tend to find a high percentage of devs who care about the quality of their work and get lots of management support with the attitude that Quality is more important than Release Date. Those who think we're too anal about getting things done right or following process tend to quit pretty soon.
Try to identify industries where software quality is of high concern and look for positions there. It can be hard to break in, but once you have that kind of experience you become much more valuable in the field.
Contracting's Where Its At... (Score:3, Insightful)
The one caveat is that you've got to be good, as in GOOD, 'cos you are going to generally be expected to be up and running and implementing new features on an unfamiliar product within 2 days of arrival.
Bob
Re:Time prediction on projects. (Score:4, Insightful)
Simple rules of thumb.
The smallest unit of code that is going to be monitored will always take about two weeks. Ask any contractor.
When you get the final total adding all those two weeks up, double that and present it as your estimate of the development time. Allow an identical amount of time for QA testing and bug fixes.
Then, when the PHBs tell you that you have to cut 60% from the schedule you came up with, you'll still be able to get the job done and have time for proper QA and bug fixing.
Re:My interest has waned (Score:3, Insightful)
The only answers i've been able to come up with are 1) programming is no longer valued as an activity by itself, and 2) there are relatively few new problems to handle in industrial/commercial setting. When i first started programming back in the dark ages, programming itself was regarded as a fairly high-skill occupation. There wasn't an API for every imaginable task, and you had to carefully craft your own data structures and be aware of performance and memory usage. The people who really thrived in this environment were people who could "design in their head" so to speak. I'd equate the process to writing-- it was often hard and required numerous attempts, but the end product could have a sort of beauty that your peers could recognize.
The high-value task these days is design. I don't really agree with this viewpoint (see Paul Graham's articles for a more eloquent viewpoint on the role of hacking), but i've got the shelf full of UML books and i can churn artifacts with the best of them. It's just not nearly as fun because you can't execute a design and watch things work.
The second issue is the lack of new problems. I am sometimes convinced that everybody in the world is working on the exact same application integration project. Do you use the word "metadata" 10 times a day? Are you trying to build a query service? Are you trying to untangle message-oriented architectures? Yeah, me too.
Yeah, i know i sound like a sour old bastard, but i miss the days when you could sit down at your computer and write an actual application.
MOD PARENT UP! (Score:2, Insightful)
And putting up with the constant "We don't want it right, we want it now" management attitude that demands I write and ship code that hasn't been designed, that skimps on error checking because it takes time to figure out beforehand what might break, and writing/testing the code to handle it, and that I haven't had sufficient time to test in the environment they specify.
Not to mention not being told of all the user's requirements (or being told an incorrect interpretation of the requirements) which leads to "bugs" that have to be fixed by ripping out large chunks of the code and quickly slamming in new untested functions NOW because "we promised to have it fixed tomorrow."
When I first started I had so much fun you couldn't keep me away from work, I even stupidly worked incredible hours for low salary. Now, I'm independent, and if you're going to make me work those hours due to your mismanagement, you're going to pay.
Re:Programmers in IT get treated poorly (Score:3, Insightful)
There is, though, a difference between "reasonable profit" and "maximizing profit".
How it looks to me, reasonable profit is more sustainable over the long term (both for the buisiness as an entity, and for the employees).
Many of the things that are done in the name of MaxProfits look pretty unsustainable. Sure the company shows huge profits this quarter, but there is no capacity left to do anything next year.
rank them by control over what they do... (Score:4, Insightful)
It isn't until you get down to lawyers that the professions begin to become mired in procedural straightjackets, where what the practitioner does is dictated by a set of obsolete/seemingly unrelated set of process rules or changes in direction while the work is ongoing.
How many plumbers (hairdressers, chefs, florists, care assistants) have the "blissful" experience of having the customer (or worse yet, some third party -- say insurance companies or HMOs in the case of MDs) butt in to change direction or tell them to hurry up or I'm not gonna pay you? Just look at how bureaucratic teaching has become, with the book used, material covered (and in what order according to a fixed timetable), and pretty much every aspect of the job dictated by someone other than the teacher.
This is a function of the direction our society has taken -- away from individual craftsmen/women whose reputation is their bond, and into some Orwellian corporate nightmare where people are turned into interchangeable machines, leaving no room for the exceptional practitioner.
All too sad that this should be the case when we have the perfect media for maintaining public customer satisfaction metrics -- the web.
Re:1 in 7 :) (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, according to SAGE [sage.org], programming is a skill sysadmins should have. For everything above a Level 1 admin programming is a desirable or required skill. Yes, yes, scripting isn't really programming, but still. The upper level admins should be required to have knowledge of an actual programming language.
I'm fairly certain that a straight sysadmin job will most likely not require the same level of programming skill that a job that has programming as a job duty would. My sysadmin job doesn't require it. But it sure beats clicking a dozen times through some GUI on 800 different computers. So first it saves me time, then it saves my organization time, which ultimately saves money.
"Hey, look at me! I'm replacing redundant co-workers with very small shell scripts!"
Re:Programmers in IT get treated poorly (Score:2, Insightful)
or from a business management text book:
"Corporate responsibility is to maximize profit to benfit the shareholder"
Yes, this is MBA think and it's the business mind gone to seed. The problem is that this is what students are being taught in business school and it's where this last generation of Enron CEO's came from. Business exists to fullfill needs in the community and it (should) have responsibilities to that community. Business provides products and services as well as jobs and taxes. Profit is but one of it's reasons for existance. As the previous reply stated most of the current business models don't work long term. They do make a big splash on the books for the current CEO which is why they're so common. More responsibility on the part of business owners and boards of directors is what is needed. Not salary caps (or facism or communism, we know they don't work) but controls that govern corporate behavior just as the current laws govern personal behavior. I can't just kill you and take your wallet because it's the most profitable and easy way for me to make money. Microsoft shouldn't be able to negotiate to buy a company, steal it's intellectual property, and then include it into it's next release of Windows (it's done this several times). That's the type of behavior that just makes working life in this country suck. You get one guy with 100 billion dollars and 200 million with $20. That's not capitalism, it is in fact, why communism and socialism don't work. They both lead to huge social splits of have everythings and have nothings. Precisely where "uncontrolled" capitalism takes us.
Re:1 in 7 :) (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you ever thought that it could be your attitude towards others? Not a dig on you, personally, just a serious question. I'm quite well liked in my organization, and I'm the disabler (as opposed to enabler) in restricting what people can and can't do on the network.
I listen to their concerns and questions and always explain myself in ways that they can understand. Not because they are stupid, but because they don't have my job. I don't know the first thing about home appraisal or horticulture. Why should I expect them to know about my job? I'm always pleasant on the phone when they call, or when I'm respoding to email, or when I speak to them face to face. I even go out drinking with them.
I sometimes wonder if IT people generally have an animosity toward end users that's bleeds through and gives off a "bad vibe".
Of course, I also believe that 25% of a sysadmin's job is being a politician, so maybe I'm biased.
Great Depression == Unhappiness (Score:2, Insightful)
Reagan's economics advisor Paul Craig Roberts estimates [vdare.com] the decrease of software development/design jobs in the US the last 3 years at about 17%.
During this same period, substantial numbers of aliens were "subsidized"(in the words of Nobel prize winner Milton Friedman) to take American jobs in software development and design via the H-1b/L-1 "temporary" worker programs and various immigration programs. There were something like 600,000 corporate sponsored H-1b visas alone issued-about 50% of which were in the computer industry and about half of which might fit the category Mr. Roberts is talking about-that doesn't include L-1 visa holders and folks immigrating by other means [h1b.info].
The total displacement of US IT workers is near 40% or as bad as unemployment ever got during the Great Depression of the 1930s.
This is clearly not a stable situation-but the current trend is temporarily maintained with the aid of hundreds of millions in campaign donations [opensecrets.org].
When not only editorial authority over "news for nerds" is taken over by the advocates of this situation, but "representative" government itself, there are good reasons for IT professionals to be "unhappy".
Re:Other stories too... (Score:3, Insightful)
Somewhat true, and somewhat false. First off, computer science != computer programming, it's much more than that. Second, if you had good professors and course material, you would have at least been taught how to code things much more efficiantly and using better methodologies.
Re:Programmers in IT get treated poorly (Score:2, Insightful)
Identifying your life as your profession (Score:4, Insightful)
IT people often think of themselves as innovators and creators - but unfortunately most business/marketing types see IT people as technicians and implementers. This is especially the case when you want to program, not just dole out the work.
Variety is the spice of life (Score:5, Insightful)
You, my friend, have hit the nail squarely on the head.
When I started my current position, it was "a little bit of everything." I did scripting, server builds, maintenance, desktop support, planning, EVERYTHING. I was quite happy. Then slowly, we started "corporatizing" our environment to conform to the rest of our company...Our happy little well-run shop didn't match up, so we had to change. Now we've assigned the more interesting things (the server builds, the planning, and whatnot) to engineers at corporate headquarters, and I'm stuck... Pigeon-holed to desktop support (I installed Bonzi Buddy again!) password monkey (I can't remember the 8-character password I made up myself!) and backup tape duties (I erased my presentation from the server again!)
While I grant you, all the things I have to do are neccessary for continued operation of our business, my job was about 100 times more interesting when there was a little variety involved. I used to love my job and wanted to stay and make a career here. Now that we've been merged into a corporate behemoth and I'm prevented by rule from solving 85% of our problems, it just isn't interesting or exciting any more. I'm looking elsewhere, and will go when I find the right position.
Re:1 in 7 :) (Score:5, Insightful)
gid-goo
Re:Programmers in IT get treated poorly (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Programmers in IT get treated poorly (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think part of the reason industry is going this way has to do with the meaning of "ego-less". There are good and bad aspects to having your ego involved in your work. Obviously it's good when it results in you caring about the quality of your work. But it can also be bad when a programmer is so ego-invested that they want all the credit for a group project, or become blind to or defensive about the possibility of bugs in their own code. I've seen this happen many times. I've actually known of certain corporate cultures (**cough** Ora **cough** cle) where this kind of immaturity seemed to be encouraged.
The ideal (IMHO) is something like the ideal for a sports team, where you have a group of people, each with different talents that are needed at different times in a game. "Ego-less" in that context means someone who will use their unique talent to the fullest at the appropriate times, but will step back and support the others to the best of their ability at other times, always remembering that the goal is for the team to win the game. Such a person is usually both highly valued by team owners and well respected by their peers.
The trick, I think, is to put your ego into creating the best "you" you can be. Make yourself the work of art more than the code.
Re:1 in 7 :) (Score:4, Insightful)
That is why I love all those meetings, and user interviews, and focus groups...our target audience is HERE- not on a different continent.
Having people skills- and using them- is probably a good way to avoid getting outsourced. If I did sit and code all day, my only value would be my ability to take instructions from a supervisor, and churn out the code they requested. Instead, I try to figure out what we want to do, by interviewing the people involved.
I think this makes me far more valuable to the place I work, and less likely to get replaced by someone who is a great coder- but not familiar with what we are really trying to achieve.
I once followed the paper trail on a 7 part form that we were trying to 'computerize'. I followed each of the 7 parts to its final destination. I found they all ended up with the same person, who told me:
"Well, on the invoice form, they'll have the white copy attached- they just use that when the job is started, so now I throw it away.
On the packing slip, they'll attach the green copy, we don't need that anymore, so I throw it away.
On the shipping receipt, are the yellow and pink copies. I just get rid of both of them."
You can see where this is going- a huge mountain of paperwork, that everyone thought that someone else needed. Yet every copy was thrown away. Obviously I didn't spend too much time streamlining that process.
Sometimes the best answer isn't just great code- sometimes you have to figure out they why's and how's of the process before you can deliver a good product. Personally, I really like doing that part...even if it does mean that I sit through some meetings...hell, we usually have bagels and juice or something like that. (Back in the good ole days, we would get lunch...but budget cuts, etc. etc...)
Re:My interest has waned (Score:3, Insightful)
And *I* absolutely agree with you. I feel pain when I see people on
Re:The Unhappy World of Clients of IT Professional (Score:2, Insightful)
Have you looked at it from his perspective?
There's could be many reasons why he's come back to you with that response.
Is he overworked / very busy - does he have time to learn this things in order to support your project?
Has his manager aproved this project, what's the process of getting this guy to do work? - is this one of those companies that just continually shovels stuff to certain IT groups and expects them to figure it out without any support / resources etc?
You did say he's job is to "maintain the SAP database on Solaris" perhaps that's precisely what he's doing (I know our DBA's have basic unix knowledge but they rely on a unix team for the rest)
I could go on and on with reasons why he is saying no, but in the long run he probably is lazy yes.
I normally find attitudes like his actually boil down to bad companies.
I personally would love to work in a company where the IT team has a decent budget, respectable managers - an understanding across the entire business of how long some things take etc.
That same guy in the right company with the right pay / incentives / structure and mentality of managers / other IT staff may be far more inclined to pick up those things in his spare time if he enjoyed his job more or even had the time / resources / rewards / thanks / something from others to make it happen.
I'd REALLY love a job where if someone comes with me to a strange / new request that I'd have time to research it possibly acheive it for them.
This is only possible (IMHO) with systems that are (mostly) reliable and an IT team which is more about supporting / helping / advising the users with their requests and needs, RATHER than fixing problems with ongoing issues / problems / gripes etc (I happen to be in the latter unfortunately)
(also, over management of IT is a burden - the amount of silly forms and paperwork we have to do in order to create or delete a user on our systems is atrocious)
So ultimately - I might just be another bitter lazy support guy supporting this lazy SAP fellow, but I can certainly understand why someone would feel inclined to not want to "take on more shit"
Re:Overwork makes people unhappy! (Score:3, Insightful)
You mean that employees who wish to keep their jobs can do this.
The whole point in making restrictions mandatory is that when they are voluntary you get lots of pressure from your boss to volunteer.
That is why it is illegal to employ children in most civilized nations, and why minimum wage is dictated by law. Otherwise you end up having 12 year olds who "volunteered" to work for $1/day. Oh sure, it doesn't start that way. If you were to get rid of minimum wage today, tomorrow nothing would change. However, your local Walmart would have a meeting and share how hard things are in the industry and suggest that employees work a little longer without overtime. New hires start at 25 cents below minimum wage. The next group of works start out 25 cents below them. Then, the boss looks at Joe and Suzy and points out to Joe that he gets paid a whole lot more than Suzy (he came onboard while there still was minimum wage), but doesn't get any more work done. So now Joe works harder. Eventually the next group of 25 cents less comes in and Joe is disposed of - he's getting paid a fortune ($6 an hour) and the company can't afford him.
This is no different from voluntary safety regulations in the workplace. I read an article about a major computer vendor where the packagers kept getting all kinds of injuries to their hands (paper cuts, staple wounds, etc). If anyone threatened to sue it was pointed out that the company did provide suitable gloves for protection. Of course, nobody used them since they slowed you down, and every week the slowest x% of the workforce was let go. So it becomes a race for the bottom.
Union rules are of course completely absurd these days, but this is how they got started. Employers asked employees to give a little, but that became permanent, and then they asked for a little more, etc. Finally there is a strike and union organizers ending up dead and all that fun stuff from back in the day, and when the union finally gets control they start making rules like working to the contract and if the employer lets anybody work 40.1 hours in a week everybody else goes on strike. While I think that these rules are overkill and harmful to society, can anybody really blame them? Remember back when those unions formed employers were willing to just ANYTHING to get rid of them. Killing people or at least making sure that they never got another job anywhere was just good business practice.
It is like anything - people are selfish and you end up swinging from one extreme to the other. Obviously the US unenployment rate can't hit 50% without there being riots in the street. It won't get that bad - but it will keep getting worse until the pain is so great that people don't care how many expensive ads they see for the politician with corporate backing - they're going to vote for the guy who sounds like Karl Marx. Then the economy will swing the opposite direction and become stagnant and overregulated, and then we'll have calls for more privitization, and then we'll eventually be back where we are now...