US Expands Fingerprint and Mugshot Program for Visitors 1073
prakslash writes "The US State Department has expanded its anti-terrorist fingerprinting program to include visitors from close US allies such as the UK, Australia, France, Germany and Japan. Everytime a visitor enters or leaves the US, they will have to get their mugshot and fingerprints taken - something that used to be mainly limited to your local police precinct. More news can be found here and here. In addition to the huge costs involved, one has to wonder if this will affect tourism to this country." Hmmm, a huge database of digital mugshots and digital fingerprints, which will be kept forever - hope we have enough RAM to search through it quickly and constantly.
what do you want? (Score:5, Insightful)
Just some questions...
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:4, Insightful)
I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:5, Insightful)
- If somebody is going to commit something illegal, he'll probably enter the country illegally. Probably through the porous mexican border or the huge coastline that the US has.
- Secondly, this is downright disrespectful. Detractors will argue that it's for the safety of the US. Well, I really don't see how it'll help. Once the dude is in the country, and has committed the offence, this sort of system is absolutely worthless. Effort should be put into preventing these sort of tragedies. Efforts like putting more effort into the Israel Palestine crisis, managing Iraq more effectively, stop being so patriachal and showing more respect to the citizens of the world.
I for one, will be taking my tourist dollars elsewhere. Where the authorities respect me. Where I'm not treated like a criminal and people realise that not everybody is out to get them.Ex Post Facto (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, a silly example but how far from the truth is it? I just don't think these measures do much at all to prevent acts of terror.
Happy Trails!
Erick
This really sucks (Score:5, Insightful)
My girlfriend is Japanese. She went back to Japan recently for her brother's wedding, and upon her return she had to go through this procedure. She has a green card. It saddens and sickens me what this country does in the name of preventing terrorism.
Futile (Score:5, Insightful)
You're obviously sarcastic... (Score:5, Insightful)
But seriously, what about immigrants? One more way to marginalize that group. They already face language and cultural barriers, stereotypes, and a host of other problems... now they'll be printed, even if they become citizens later.
When the government starts printing people who have committed no crime and may later be citizens, it's clear that we're on the very edge of having full prints taken for something like a marriage license, then for a driver's license, and then at birth.
Even if our government doesn't start printing us for these things, there will be reciprocal arrangements with other countries. Cross any national border into a developed country, get printed, have that shared worldwide.
We already do have footprints taken at birth, so remember not to walk barefoot around the house of your murder victims.
That tears it. (Score:5, Insightful)
The first question I have is: just what does the US think this will achieve? And the second question: how does it think this will achieve it?
Is it to stop terrorists entering the country? Sorry. No such luck. If Individual A joins a terrorist group, but keeps his head low, he won't be on any of the lists. If he's careful, there'll be no way to say that he is a terrorist, even though he is. Would this system have caught the Unabomber, for example?
Or criminals? Same story.
All this system will do is catch those who have been stupid enough to be caught before... if that. It's a dubious step, of dubious usefulness; the potentials for abuse of this information are sufficient that I, for one, will not be visiting the US in the future (unless they drop this requirement). The UK? Maybe. Africa? Possibly. Maybe even Jamaica (via Britain, rather than the US, as I'd have to get a transit visa to go through the US...)
I would suggest that the US can kiss a reasonable proportion of their current tourist dollars goodbye.
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:3, Insightful)
I've got yer huge database of mugshots right here! (Score:1, Insightful)
Haven't you ever heard of a driver's license?
Granted, the fingerprints are another issue altogether.
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, most (all?) of the September 11 hijackers entered the USA legally. The problem was that no-one stopped them.
But I'm not sure how taking their photograph or fingerprints on entry would have done anything to stop it.
A Fingerprint's Rights (Score:3, Insightful)
If a freakin fingerprint is all you have to worry about entering this country, you're still doing pretty damn good.
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:3, Insightful)
Suposedly 9/11 terrorist entered legally USA. Perhaps it will be more effective to remove the people that ignored the warnings [cnn.com]...
stop being so patriachal and showing more respect to the citizens of the world.
That would be apreciated
Absolutely Disgusting (Score:2, Insightful)
The poster has it exactly right -- this is just like treating all visitors as criminals when they enter the US.
Even though terrorism is as disgusting an act as humanity has managed to think up in the past 5000 years, this is an awful move by the US. This goes beyond simple restrictions of civil liberties in the name of security.
What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:5, Insightful)
If you don't have your papers, then you're obviously a terrorist and it's into the slammer with you. That's how it'll work, you see the grounds for that being put into place today; make people afraid, strip away their rights one by one, catalouge and condition them like sheep. Once you've got them controlled enough and you've got absolute control of the media, begin the cleansing of ideals, er, winning of hearts and minds. If you're a blank on their system, you're not a citizen. If you aren't registered and you're on american soil, then you're a terrorist, and subject to the same treatment as the current round of people are getting at guantanimo, or not if they just decide it's too expensive to export you or make you an american citizen and shoot you.
Of course, people will forget their papers all the time. There'll be "mistakes", because as we all know, you can't keep that many people in jail. Or people who burn their papers will be thrown into jail. So, of course, they're going to mandate RFID or some kind of mark that can't be taken off. And after everyone has RFID tags, then all the banks and commerce are going to switch over to that system since it's easier and more secure that way.
Getcha mark of the beast ere', $10!
Call me a troll if you must, but that's where it's going. The only reason it hasn't already happened is because this pesky internet thing is here and they can't stop it and moreso, more and more people are moving onto the internet and getting their info from alternative sources. Last year fox lost half of it's watchers, and CNN lost a good 25%. The internet takes that control away and helps to put people in power that should be in power.
Use the standard model Mcfly! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:4, Insightful)
Security has been "tightened" at airports. Fingerprinting is already in place, on-line systems and the works. And yet, the Immigration officer will turn to you and ask: "For how long did you stay in the US the last time you've been here?". Damn?!? If they don't know this, how do you expect them to catch terrorists?
Also, remember that the terrorists from 9/11 were lawful resident aliens. They would not be caught in the anti-terrorist net.
Moreover, it's a fallacy to think that all terrorists are from abroad. Just remember the unsolved Anthrax cases.
Re: A Fingerprint's Rights (Score:5, Insightful)
The 9/11 problem was that the CIA wasn't sharing the information it had with other government agencies.
One less tourist. (Score:3, Insightful)
Disgraceful
Say goodbye to your science conferences... (Score:5, Insightful)
It will (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:how would you feel? (Score:2, Insightful)
If i visited another country, and it was the policy in that country, it's basically a tough-noogies type deal. Don't like it, don't visit.
Re:You're obviously sarcastic... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:As a Canadian who works in the U.S. (Score:2, Insightful)
In fact, you ARE entitled to equal protection of your rights -US citizen or not!
google " us constitution deny any person"
And fingerprints stop hijackings, how? (Score:5, Insightful)
Fingerprinting hurts far less.
Interesting. I didn't know fingerprinting could prevent people from flying planes into buildings.
How, pray tell, would fingerprints distinguish a legal visitor who wants to go to disneyland, and a legal visitor who wants to hijack a plane and fly it into a building?
If the hijacker has no previous criminal record, as with 9/11 IIRC, why would this possibly be of use?
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:5, Insightful)
Now they will take advantage of other weaknesses, like the ones the parent post mentions (mexican border, etc).
Re:what do you want? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:3, Insightful)
No Problem.
Write to your favourite US airline! (Score:5, Insightful)
I will definitely stop going to or through the US and start using a non-US airline. I think I'll write to AA to let them know. Maybe if enough people do that...
Re:what do you want? (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know if you joke or not, but I am SERIOUSLY entertaining the idea of my first gun purchase lately. I used to think those psychos in Montana were out of their minds. I still think they were, but more and more, I fear that they weren't/aren't.
This sort of thing occurs in steps - gradually. However, eventually, a lot of people may well wake up one morning and say "Holy shit! It's 1984!"
I, for one, am not willing to let that happen.
And, still.... I do not post A/C....
Re:This really sucks (Score:1, Insightful)
Don't go out and fight, and protest in front of the White House, don't start a civil war, and certainly don't do anything.
Just sit here on
Re: A Fingerprint's Rights (Score:3, Insightful)
Afterall if a freakin fingerprint is all you have to worry about to live in your country, you're still doing pretty damn good, right?
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:2, Insightful)
The first thing you can do is to quit pretending that solution to big government is to elect more politicians who favor big government. If you're planning on voting Democrat or Green, you're part of the problem, because those two parties favor larger and more intrusive government.
A government that is given more power to do good is one that has just been given more power to do evil. The solution is to take back the power we the citizens gave them. Only vote for candidates who promise to reduce the power of government in all areas.
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:5, Insightful)
I was just talking to a friend about going to Orlando in June. After this nonsense, it looks like Europe is going to get the tourist money.
Any one want to bet what happens the 1st time the US finger prints an Aussie whos on the jet fighter selection comitteee? I'm betting that will sway the decision about the Euro-fighter. The decision has already been made about buying Boeing jets by two of the local airlines and they declined.
Tourism in the US is just starting to recover in the US (www.bea.gov) but international tourism is flat and its the 4th largest "import" of money into the US. The US Gov't is spending $50 mil [doc.gov] tring to get more tourist. Germany, Japan, UK, Canada and Mexico account for about 3/4 of all visitors in to the US. France used to be major contributor but they seem to be going elsewhere.
Re:what do you want? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:5, Insightful)
However, let's also think about this: name 1 person who has committed a terrorist act in this country who entered it illegally (not who was here illegally, but who enter here illegally.)
For the record, I'm opposed to this as I don't think it'll solve much since most islamic terrorists are dead after they commit their act.
Re:what do you want? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Use the standard model Mcfly! (Score:4, Insightful)
Ask your self this. Would having the pictures and fingerprints of the 9/11 terrorist have stopped them?
Sorry, trick question - the US government did have that information and 9/11 still occured. Quite a few of the 9/11 terrorists used their real identities and despite some of them being on watch-lists, still succeeded.
So tell me again how this extremely expensive initiative is going to make you safer?
Hint: Gathering info about the bad guys isn't the problem - the US has reams of info on terrorist and doesn't need the picture and fingerprints of every person entering the country. The problem is sorting through, connecting and properly and correctly analyzing the data they already have. Wouldn't this money be better and more effectively spent in this area, without insulting and marginalizing the rest of the world?
Think it's not a bother? Ask the US airline pilots who have to get photographed and fingerprinted in Brazil if it's just part of the routine. Or maybe flipping the bird and getting fined is part of the routine...
Re:Ex Post Facto (Score:3, Insightful)
Nothing is 100% secure, but that doesn't mean it should not be implemented. We have always had a very open travel policies in the US, but that doesn't mean it's a human entitlement to travel here with absolute minimum security measures. Particularly at this time, when we are under foreign threat of a kind we're still very much struggling to deal with.
Assuming they have some decent procedures and technology, this doesn't need to be much more cumbersome than the current passport controls that have always been applied. Hopefully they have electronic fingerprint readers, and digital cameras that take the pics as part of the normal passport control procedure.
I'm a lot less disturbed by this "strong authentication" of foreign travellers to the U.S. than I am of all the policies applying to U.S. citizens with no oversight or public review. Those are the bad ones, when the gov't does things behind closed doors, without checks, balances, reviews and reports.. And, that's why I badly want Bush out of office in the upcoming election.
Your identification papers, Fraulein! (Score:5, Insightful)
With computer databases, your image and your fingerprints *are* identification papers, and now you are being forced to hand them over at checkpoints.
Seriously, it was all very funny when we *started* to point out the amazing number of similarities between Hitler and Bush's rise. There was a terrorist act on a national monument (and even, in the 9/11 case, *attempted* on the national legislature, same as Germany) that produced national fear, whipped up by leader, used to convince legislature to pass through critical bills granting extensive police powers. Political opponents were accused of being soft on terrorism. Fear and xenophobia against religious (Islamic/Christian) and racial (Arabic/Jewish) groups was used to greatly infringe those people's rights and persecute them. A number of undesireable people, in violation of national law, were locked up in a camp to isolate them from the rest of society (Guantanamo Bay/Nazi concentration camps). Nationalistic fervor was whipped up and whipped up again to build up a popular base. Personal vendettas were made good upon with the new power (Bush-Hussein/Hitler-a number of enemies). Other countries were invaded and occupied on poor pretexts, banking on the fact that other, less powerful, countries would not be willing to organize or do more than protest (Iraq/several countries). A primary motivation for the invasion was resources (and later Nazi invasion into the USSR was significantly for oil). Business and government had close ties, and war profiteer corporations did a number of nasty things to take advantage of cronyism with major political figures (Schindler's List is a nice example). Right now the third largest employer of armed forces in Iraq (after the US and Britain)are private corporations -- big companies that are answerable only to an extremely friendly occupational government that grants Iraqis almost no rights and consists mostly of people trying to curry favor with their US occupiers to try to get a more advantageous political position in the future. Neither leader is brilliant, but both are prone to violence and grudge-holding. Both managed to seize control of the legislature at about the time they gained office. Neither has much regard for the lives of the people they have conquered -- we have been using unarmed Iraqi guards as inspectors of cars into restricted areas before US personnel come close, making human shields out of them. Neither feels that international opinion is of much import. Both quickly established powerful police organizations with far stronger powers than their predecessors, little oversight, and the ability to bypass much of the judicial system (OHS/Gestapo). Both started their invasions based on punishing the terrorists that attacked their nation, and immediately spread out once they had the power they needed. Both had rising unemployment in their countries, and a growing degree of xenophobia towards foreign laborers.
There are some differences. Hitler respected and even idolized what Britain had done -- Bush treats Britain as a lapdog. Hitler actively physically intimidated his physical opponents -- Bush does not. Hitler invaded, occupied, and eliminated the governments of no countries within his first four years as ruler, whereas Bush invaded, occupied, and eliminated the governments of two countries within his first four years as ruler. Hitler wound up eventually killing many more people than Bush has thus far, though Bush is currently ahead for the first four years of rule. Hitler did not actively attempt to control other countries through diplomatic means -- Bush has a team that works hard to control other contries without needing to overthrow their government. Bush has computers and telecommunication monitoring systems, but Hitler did not.
Screw Goodwin's Law. The man didn't write it in 2004.
I'll leave
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:1, Insightful)
With good software to do face recognition, it's easy to compare photos of against pictures of known terrorists. This helps in the event of phony documentation.
Re:how would you feel? (Score:3, Insightful)
This is great news! (Score:1, Insightful)
Apr 28- May 5
Comdex Baghdad
May 12 - 20
Object World Kabul
May 28 - Jun 6
Computer Coders Ass'n Islamabad
Jun 19 - 25
Infosec Beijing
Jul 8 - 16
Netcom Casablanca
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:5, Insightful)
I just can't wait to plan my next holiday to Disneyland!
Re:what do you want? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:1, Insightful)
Wait for 911 commision (Score:3, Insightful)
Their Congressional charter is after all to make recommendations for how to strengthen security and avoid terrorist attacks in the future.
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:2, Insightful)
The delays are astounding. The whole system, due to endless backgrounds checks, an inept and underfunded administration forced to apply an incredible set of Kafkaesque regulations is simply maddening! I shudder to think these people are now going to track fingerprints for every single visitor to enter and exit the US.
And, all of it applies *only* to those who are actually *legally* trying to move to or stay in the US. This fingerprinting business to me is just another one in a series of insults visitors and immigrants to this country have been made to suffer. And if you think we're just talking about people who are desparate to come here and should be happy to put up with this, have a look at our universities, national laboratories, the computer industry and any major technological ventures in this country. It's just not good policy if prevention of terrorism is your objective.
I posted this before, but Linus Torvalds is a good example:
http://www.usvisanews.com/memo861.html
http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/sili
Some background check...;-)
It's easy to get fingerprinted. (Score:3, Insightful)
Want to be fingerprinted?
Join the military.
Helps them identify the 1-2 kg of your remains after you step in the wrong place or stand under a 2000-lb bomb.
Being fingerprinted is not a big deal.
Unless you plan to be a criminal later in life.
Seriously. I feel better knowing they can identify me from the smudges on the inside of the trunk of the car I was buried in.
prints (Score:5, Insightful)
*I also suspect, really just suspect, they've been doing a closeup retina scan print during the picture taking part of the license, if that's possible at a distance of a few feet. I don't know, though. I can't prove it, but last time I got mine renewed it sure was suspicious, EVERYONE in the line had two pics taken, and I asked about it, because before for years and years it was "one snap, sorry, you're stuck with that one, move along now" and the lady state cop gave me quite a squirrely answer and looked chagrined about it, like she was embarrased/angry at the same time.
And I mean really, what a scam anyway, prints and pics at the OFFICIAL border crossings, yet they turn a blind eye to the MILLIONS who cross illegally, and it's not all "out of work poor hispanics" who cross over, there's all kindsa folks sneaking across. Tell me this ain't weird..
The whole "war on terror" stuff is being taken advantage of in this stealth coup that's been going on, IMO. Look at all the 9-11 government prior knowledge stuff that is FINALLY making the mainstream news the past few weeks.
Political origin. (Score:3, Insightful)
There are many problems with this policy, not the least of which is the good ole' "doesn't fix the perceived problem".
This policy does however, provide an excellent solution to the problem of "politicians in charge need to appear to act decisive to gain re-election". Particularly when the government is running breathtaking budget deficits -- whats a few more billion to implement this?
Re:And fingerprints stop hijackings, how? (Score:4, Insightful)
I posted elsewhere in this thread, but here's my basic feeling.
I don't think this will do squat for actually stopping terrorism directly.
What it will do is make it much much harder for someone to spoof an identity (ie, fake passport) for coming into the US.
Secondly, if a tourist does a crime and leaves fingerprints then it can help track that down. Regarding fingerprinting, I remember getting fingerprinted when I was little at school, do all Americans get fingerprinted as routine? If so, then it kind of makes sense to treat visitors as we do ourselves.
Anyway, the one good thing about this is that they're apparently making all countries citizens get fingerprinted, and hence all visitors have a level playing field. So it'll make a visitor from Morocco feel less humiliated at immigration than a visitor from Spain, for example.
Re:how would you feel? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:5, Insightful)
Please don't lump all Americans into one basket, I'd call that racist, but it's not an issue of race but of country.
Remember - half of the US voters voted for Gore. Actually, more than half. Off topic - Best bumper sticker I saw after the 2000 election - "Re-elect Gore in 2004!" (And no, I didn't and won't vote for Bush).
Anyway, seriously, we are not all the same. We're really not this brainwashed mass that you make us out to be. Yeah, Fox News totally bites and some US TV programs aim for the lowest common intellectual denominator. Yeah, there's crappy stuff about any country's culture.
But extrapolating some things to the general populace is just as ridiculous and dangerous as claiming all Jews are cheap or all Arabs are terrorists.
Business dollars (Score:5, Insightful)
Until recently the US was the undisputed center of the international economy. Recently the EU has risen as a potential threat, and in other fields so has China.
Despite all claims of telecommunications and ecommerce, big business deals are still made in personal meetings, and have more to do with social processes than with economics.
Given these measures, where do you think the business will go?
If you had to choose between making a deal with someone who deals with you as an equal, or someone who treats you like a terrorist, which one would you choose?
Many a good business proposal has gone down because of more trivial reasons: bad personal chemistry, bad food in a business dinner, personal dislike for a national stereotype, etc.
In Latin America, for example, people have been typically happy to do business with Americans:
The stereotype says that Americans like to do business, have money, and keep things straightforward. The US was normally seen as a nation that welcomes you and treats you like a king as long as you bring money to pay for it.
The whole US was for most middle-class businessmen of the region like a mix of Disneyland and a Giant Shopping Mall is for a teenage girl. A business meeting in Atlanta, New York or Florida is a half-vacation.
In short, they're happy and receptive to a pitch while the other team has 'home advantage'.
More recently, it's easy to find people feeling personally insulted by new measures post 9/11. Now this can make them feel like criminals.
People will start to simply refuse to go to the US, for business or pleasure: "if they want to do business, let them come here". And the stereotype will be different as well: Americans are paranoid, make things difficult, think of everyone else as criminals and terrorists.
It wouldn't take much for a friendly European or Asian competitor to take the business. It's not like they have to dazzle them with a better offer, they just have to make them feel better about the deal.
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's pretend we live in a dreamy world where face recognition is correct 90% of the time. Every year, there are about 200,000 airline passengers entering the united states. Suppose 200 of them are known terrorists (probably far too high). That leaves 199,800 innocent passengers.
In this scenario, the system will flag 19,980 innocent passengers as potential terrorists. It will flag 180 terrorists as potential terrorists. So the alarm will be wrong 99.1% of the time. When the system flags someone as a terrorist, the authorities will assume it is yet another false alarm and ignore it. So what good did face recognition do?
Bushies are fscking idiots (Score:2, Insightful)
1. Most of the 9/11 bastard hijackers were Saudi
2. Most of the money flowing to terrorist organizations is Saudi.
3. Most of the "brains" behind all this are from Pakistan.
So what do the Bushies do?
1. Ignore Saudis
2. Invade Iraq - something which could have been done anytime.
3. Promote the pakis to "non-nato" ally status
4. Jerk off visitors to the US with their dumbass US-VISIT program.
Fscking idiots. But hey, you get the government that you deserve and most Americans are fscking idiots anyway.
Re:what do you want? (Score:5, Insightful)
What use is freedom when you're dead from a terrorist attack?
Better to die on my feet than live on my knees. The terrorists can kiss my ass (except for Cheney - eww).
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:4, Insightful)
The real problem is that most had legal paperwork while entering the country, but then did not leave when that paperwork said they had to. What we really need to do is actually enforce the visa laws, which means when a foriegn student skips too many classes, we find them and throw them outta here. Yeah, it's a bit mean to the student who is harmlessly goofing off... but we can't stand allowing the ones who aren't so harmless being allowed to go untracked.
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:2, Insightful)
The U.S. is THE biggest arms dealer in the world.
The US is also the biggest foriegn aide spender in the world, has done more to rebuild countries after major wars/catastrophies than the UN ever has/will/can, and its private citizens give billions of dollars a year to help people from all walks of life, all around the globe.
But yeah, the US, a country of 250+ individuals, can be boiled down to: "they" don't want to do anything about Isreal/Palestine. "They" don't care about any world conflict. "They" all elected some cowboy president. "They" are the enemy. This nebulous "they" entity. You sound like such a bigot/racist/zealot, do you realize?
Sounds like the only one on a high horse is you. And you certainly have one hell of a chip on your shoulder. But by all means, please do tell me where you live. I'd love to go to this great utopia where everyone is free yet somehow agrees on all world conflicts, on all internal policy, has the most enlightened leader ever, and doesn't even need an army because the country is loved by everybody, world over.
Re:Say goodbye to your science conferences... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:0, Insightful)
Re: A Fingerprint's Rights (Score:5, Insightful)
Being a frog in the world's largest pot, you might not think so. But from outside your country, where we do not have a history of routine fingerprinting of people who are not even suspects in a crime, this is a major deal. If my wife wasn't American, there would be no way I would be going to the US at all now. As it is I'm not happy that she insists I accompany her on visits.
Most people don't realise the value of privacy until they have suffered some consequence of its violation. Your time for this will come.
Re:Ex Post Facto (Score:2, Insightful)
While the terrorists send people without any prior travel record as their catspaws.
Brilliant, just brilliant.
Re:how would you feel? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ya know, there were things I didn't like about being behind the Iron Curtain during the hight of the cold war, military officers armed with automatic weapons boarding the train at the border crossing and such, and I vowed not to go back until the curtain lifted, but at least, In Soviet Russia, they didn't strip search me and they didn't photograph and print me. They checked my passport. That's what a passport is for. You should read the fine print on your own American issued passport.
Mine goes something like this:
"The Secretary of the United States of America hereby requests all whom it may concern to permit the citizen(s) of the United States named herein to pass without delay or hinderence and in case of need to give said citizen(s) all lawful aid and protection."
Clearly that must have been written by some former Secretary of State who had read his Homer.
As I might commend you to do.
The Odyssey is an allegory of how to treat guests in a civil manner, especially those of a foreign land.
Reading with careful attention might increase the turnout at your next soiree.
Civility breeds civility, and this step will do nothing to further the cause of our self-appointed leadership of the civilized world.
It will also do nothing to combat terrorism, thus making the injury even more insulting.
I fully expect people to not visit in droves.
KFG
Re: A Fingerprint's Rights (Score:1, Insightful)
If I was forced by a country to undergo this humiliation I'd want my country to start imposing body-cavity searches to their citizens.
The hilarious thing here is is that whilst the american government doesn't think twice about subjecting people from other countries to this humiliation they know if they tried to do this to americans they'd get flayed alive.
Since you're far more likely to be murdered by another american then a terrorist, I'd say they started their finger printing on the wrong people.
Re:what do you want? (Score:4, Insightful)
See 'ya'll. (Score:1, Insightful)
But, I won't be giving my fingerprints to any foreign government, and I expect many Americans would feel the same way.
In the last decade I've made many trips to the US, at least once a year. I've worked in the US for a few months at a time, spending all my wages in that country.
Aside from the time I spent there working, I estimate I've spent $US 30,000 in what amounts to a total of about 70 days travel there for pleasure.
One trip I took, weeks after 9/11 when the entire tourism industry was reeling (to Minneapolis) lasted 3 days and I spent over $1500.00. One 10-day trip to Chicago I spent $5,000.00.
You won't see that money again. I'm going elsewhere for vacation from now on. Just as the US is free to do whatever it feels necessary to protect itself, I'm free to spend my money as I see fit.
The US customs has full access to any records held by police in my country, and state police can call that data up from the patrol car.
If I had been charged with any offense here at home, my fingerprints would be part of that information. Keep in mind shoplifting is a felony here; one bad check is a felony; lying on a loan application is a felony; in fact there's no such thing as a misdemeanor anything beyond common traffic offenses (and serious traffic offenses are felonies).
The fact that I don't have any fingerprint records, to me, is testament to my good character.
But, once I give that information away, I have no control over what a foreign government can do with it. I won't be taking that risk.
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:5, Insightful)
Republicans are not for smaller government. They are for having government intrude in my bedroom and personal life. They are for giving big tax cuts to their rich buddies. The are for gouging the government with fat contracts to their contributors (Haliburton).
And I'm saying this as a Libertarian, not a Democrat. Republicans claim to be better for the economy, but the past 25 years show that to be wrong. At least the democrats aren't as happy to take away my rights.
Notice how the Republicans are the ones always proposing constitutional amendments to take away people's rights. Smaller government my ass.
Re:just got from an amazing race style of holiday (Score:2, Insightful)
1. A big brother mentality, or maybe now is more of a big bully. Anyone who have power (US, and previously, the Soviet Union) all wants to either be the big brother (we must protect the weak) or a big bully (do what we say, or we beat the crap out of you).
2. For above reason, other country generally look upon US with skepticism.
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:5, Insightful)
> from the middleast his country will be safer.
Bull, bull, bull! Will you quit beating up this oh-so-convenient strawman? That is NOT why he is planning on pulling the troops back, but rather because he (and the Spanish majority) opposed putting them in on principle from the start. Now he gets a chance to act on his principles. The media and their willing followers can spin this whichever way they want, but this straw ain't gonna turn to gold.
You'd be VERY surprised. (Score:3, Insightful)
Yet strangely enough, ton after ton of high-grade marijuana flows across the border to New York City alone. Laugh if you will, but if bales of aromatic plant matter can enter the country on a routine basis, then a few clever men will certainly be able to do the same.
====---====
Have you ever traveled to a foreign country? (Score:5, Insightful)
The document they require is nothing simple either. It's an official federal proof of identity. Getting it requires proving citizenship and identity. It's actually much harder in many countries. I'm a US/Canada dual citizen. My US passport was easy, just prove I'm my parent's kid that was that. My Canadian one is a bitch. They need lots more ID (copy of my driver license and US passport, and my physical citizen ID card), a sworn statement testifying to my identity by a notary public (or doctor, lawyer, etc) who has known me for a few years, etc.
Know what? They STILL want me to go through all the shit when I go to the US or Canada from the other. I can get away with less than a passport since I'm a citizen and the countries are on good terms, but it's more difficult. To any other country, forget it. It's a passport or nothing.
ID checks at the border are nothing new, and have needed official ID for a LOOOONG time.
No more US visits for me (Score:3, Insightful)
Most americans I've met are friendly, open, decent, people whom I've really enjoyed meeting and getting to know in my past visits. It's a shame that I can't come and see them any more, or visit any of the great places in the US, but I refuse to be treated as a criminal and have my photo and fingerprint in some foreign nations database over which i have absolutely no control.
So, I'll do the only thing I can and try to stay out. Hope you won't miss my tourist dollars. I'll sure miss the friendly and nice people.
Re:Ex Post Facto (Score:3, Insightful)
No, the same could not be said for any security measure. Some security measures actually would be effective in preventing the harm terrorism does: secure cockpit doors, remote control of passenger airplanes, replacing air travel by other means of transportation, etc. But those require investments by the airlines, whereas these ineffective measures just require spending your tax dollars.
I'm a lot less disturbed by this "strong authentication" of foreign travellers to the U.S. than I am of all the policies applying to U.S. citizens with no oversight or public review.
Well, you should be disturbed by them. Contrary to what you may have been led to believe, most of the protections of the US Constitution are not limited to US citizens, they were intended to apply to all people within its jurisdiction.
But, apart from such legal and political technicalities, think about what both these kinds of policies and your kind of statements send to the world. Basically, they are saying "we don't care about the rights of others; other nations are second class as far as we are concerned; we can treat you like shit, in ways we wouldn't treat our own worst criminals" (foreign visitors to the US already have very few of the legal protections and protection against unreasonable government actin that even US criminals have).
That kind of treatment has grave consequences for the US. You can bet that European voters who visit the US will increasingly vote for politicians that are not friendly towards the US because of this kind of treatment--what point is there in supporting a nation that commits such gross violations of privacy and treats its allies like that?).
Furthermore, tourism to the US will probably drop even further, and tourism is of huge economic importance to the US. That's not just because of the increasing invonvenience involved in traveling to the US. It's also because many of the visitors that the US attracts come because the US has a certain mystique as the "land of the free", but that image is hard to maintain if people who come here are fingerprinted, recorded, screened, and tracked.
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:3, Insightful)
How does this help protect me again?
Oh look bread and circuses...what was I saying?
sniff (Score:1, Insightful)
I'll avoid going to the States while this politic is going on. I don't like to be treated as a criminal.
Re:Your identification papers, Fraulein! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:3, Insightful)
Democrats don't want a smaller government, they want a more efficient big government.
Re:Collect finger prints at radical mosques. (Score:1, Insightful)
and that makes them my enemies.
some will act violently on their beliefs
and those people I have to try to kill, as they're trying to kill me.
some will not
and I won't forget those people are there. Tell me you're my enemy, and I'll keep an eye on you. Show me you're my enemy and I'll kill you.
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:what do you want? (Score:5, Insightful)
Rule Number Two: There are no exceptions to Rule Number One.
You may think you are armoured up like Rambo but you are still as good as dead.
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:2, Insightful)
But then again, may I suggest that it is equally wrong to lump all non-US citizens together and brand them as potential terrorists, hell bent on destroying the US way of life.
I'm from the UK. Although I haven't been to the US tmyself, I do know a large number who have, or who intend to go some time in the near future. Why? Not because they want to destroy the US way of life, but because they LIKE the US!
To be honest, I LIKE the US! I wouldn't mind visiting the place myself (for some reason the image of hiring a Harley and biking through Arizona comes to mind! No idea if this is recommended, practical or even possible). However, I will NOT be doing anything of the sort if my fingerprints and mug-shot is going to be taken on entry and exit. I wouldn't want my own government doing that to me, let alone a foreign one.
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:2, Insightful)
I wanted to go to the US but will not do so, even though my GBP will go a long way over there. But I wont be treated like a criminal for daring to travel there.
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:2, Insightful)
- Now they will take advantage of other weaknesses, like the ones the parent post mentions (mexican border, etc).
The upside of this is you can't fly the mexican border smack into the side of a big buildingGetting back to the topic, though: Most people don't have to realize how terrorist attacks are done and they don't really need to. It would be enough if the FBI did realize it and acted on that knowledge pre-emptively. My personal opinion is that fingerprints and mugshots isn't quite the answer.
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's see... I used to be able to fly anywhere within the U.S. without having to show picture ID. Now, I must carry my papers and be prepared to show them at U.S. government checkpoints.
I feel much less safe than I ever did before since my life and the lives of all U.S. citizens will be affected far more by the U.S. government and the laws and rules it imposes on its citizens than by all the terrorists in the world. I'd rather be able to travel where I wished and read whatever books I wished without the government tracking my every move than have a false sense of being protected by the occasional loon who is hell bent on loading a rental truck full of fertilizer and blowing it up in front of an IRS office. There will always be terrorism as sure as there will always be the human emotions of anger and hate, and it's asinine to erode civil liberties in the name of either.
Anyone who thinks U.S. citizen's civil liberties aren't being violated is either not a U.S. citizen, or they have a poster of Ashcroft on their bedroom ceiling.
Another database... (Score:3, Insightful)
It seems to me that there are really good reasons why fingerprints have not, until now, been summarily taken from people at birth. One of those is civil liberties/preservation of individual dignity and individual volition etc, but one is pragmatic: a repository of such information can be abused, or used by criminals for some illicit purpose.
In the past, this would't have been much of a problem - but with biometrics imbedded in many common documents, and modern technology (say the ability to credibly 'put' someone's fingerprint on a gun) it's going to be.
Every police force and public service has corrupt elements or people with criminal tendencies, no matter how careful they are. The more data held by these sources, the more enticing it will be for terrorists or common criminals to find some way to utilise it. I don't think terrorists, perhaps because of their rather luddite backgrounds, have fully comprehended yet what damage they could wreak through attacks on the very electronic systems we are falling over ourselves to put in place for their benefit.
As the citizen of another country, however friendly, I have no rights AFAIK under U.S law with regards to the way my personal data is treated. Who is to say they won't sell or otherwise distribute that data? Who is to say they won't provide it to my own Government in circumvention of our own Laws? (Remember Echelon?)One can only imagine the ghastly scenarios of identity theft and the consequent tribulations endured by the luckless individual whose personal data has become the plaything of some criminal.
Not sure I follow the logic (Score:5, Insightful)
Solution: insult them and tell them they're all effectively criminals. Then they'll like us more!
Do you ever get the feeling that someone important just doesn't Get It?
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:2, Insightful)
Just ask the the guy with the heorin shipment, I'm quite sure that he knows people with access to explosives..
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:2, Insightful)
That's the sad part
Tourism? (Score:3, Insightful)
US border control is already bad enough without... (Score:4, Insightful)
You're warned that getting the slightest thing wrong on your declaration card will see you thrown into jail and the staff appear to have manners and an abrasive attitude that are certainly the worse than Australia, New Zealand, Singapore or the UK.
You can't help but get the overwhelming impression that, as a tourist, you're not so much welcomed as tollerated as a temporary visitor to the USA.
With all the new measures in place, and the presumption of guilt that accompanies them, I certainly wouldn't put the USA very high on my list of places to visit again.
Once you're through the airport it's a nice place and the people I met there were great -- but that border-control is a *real* turn-off.
Besides which, what's with LAX? I've never had to queue on the sidewalk to get to the check-in counter before -- it's crazy!
Gore irony LT 50% when he won GT 50% when he lost (Score:3, Insightful)
That is merely amusing trivia. Neither Bush nor Gore were going for a numeric majority. Both were going for an electoral college majority. You run campaigns quite differently depending on whether or not you are going for a numerical or an electoral college majority. The "Gore won" argument is not unlike a losing football team pointing out that they moved the ball a greater number of yards during the game. That is interesting and all but that was not the victory criteria agreed upon before the game.
It is also interesting to note that with the three way races the two Clinton/Gore victories had a minority of Americans voting for Clinton/Gore, a majority voted for the other guys. In short, Gore received a minority the two times he made it, a majority the one time he did not. Again, nothing more than amusing trivia.
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:3, Insightful)
Er, why not? I don't think earning a reputation of being total jackasses to everybody who isn't a citizen is worth a miniscule increase in security.
OK, but what happens if....? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:2, Insightful)
After the political ideology conflicts of both media markets, and the USA's nationwide protest against anything of french origin or french background (well, not everything, guess it still wants to retain the freedom statue for some reason), it's no surprise that french people feel a bit uneasy and prefer to rather not walk in a country that seems to be so hostile.
"everyone who's not with us is against us"
Re:prints (Score:5, Insightful)
America thumbs down (Score:1, Insightful)
However, what makes me more angry is that US politics destabilises the world and IMHO terrorism is a selfmade american product which all have to suffer from. Strange that US has been our best friends and now the distance between cultures feels much bigger to America as for example to our Turkish friends.
Re:Your identification papers, Fraulein! (Score:4, Insightful)
I saw this statement in a news story the other day and it still strikes me as highly bizarre. What else would be number 3? The US and Britain are the only countries with any significant troop presence. You have to have a number 3 somewhere, were you expecting it to be "Iraqi gun nuts"?
Re: A Fingerprint's Rights (Score:5, Insightful)
So, you have two countries; one of them does a bit of paperwork and takes your temperature with an infrared camera. The other one fingerprints you, takes a mugshot, and puts it all into a big database. Remind me, which one is the totalitarian dictatorship again?
In all honesty, the US remains a lot more free than China, but the situation at the border sure doesn't help my perception.
Re:I, regrettfully, have to agree with this becaus (Score:5, Insightful)
When you know what 'justification' a terrorist uses to kill innocent people, then maybe you understand that this and previous US governments have provided both wood and sparks to ignite this fire. US governments have shown in the past not to give a damn about people in other countries; US governments support whatever regime as they see best for their own plans. THAT feeds terrorism. If you want to put a stop to terrorism, take away its breeding ground: change US foregn policy.
Fuck excuse me for not giving a fuck about someone who murder INNOCENT people and has a reason for it. I don't give a shit.
Does this mean you are willing to let the reason a terrorist became a terrorist keep on existing? Kill one terririst, another will take its place, as long as that other thinks it's the only way. Take away the breeding ground for terrorism, and it will fade away.
People who kill innocent people should follow the same fate!
No, they should be put on trial in a court of law.
Tell you what the next time someone shoots, burns, mutilates someone from my country (...)
And here lies a mayor source of the problem. Why should it be limited to someone from your own country? Why not have the same feelings for a 14 year old palestine girl who was shot without reason? Or an old lady sitting in a bus in whatever Israelian city? Why do you not ask your government to put more pressure on Isreal to make peace, and not war?
They want the world to be ISLAM-ONly
Sure, some fundamentalists want that. Just as there are fundamentalist christian nutcases who want the whole world to be christian. Just like the US educational system wants to have all students swear an oth to some deity. The fact is, most muslims just want peacefull coexistance, as long as they may hold their own beliefs. Look into history: Spain was once occupied by the (muslim) Moors; under their reign christians as well as jews could openly have their own religion.
You should open your eyes and understand they have one objective and that is convert the world to Islam. Just like the Palestinians want to wipe Israel off of the map and not live with them.
Yeah, right. Most palestines just want to have freedom, food on the table, a house to live in, and decent education for their children; most of these things they do not have. The main reason they are opposed to Israel is because in their eyes Israel is keeping them from their basic human rights and needs, and I cannot blame them for that view.
I'm all for a discussion with groups not out to destroy mine or any others way of life but they wouldn't talk to us if we begged.
??? They tried and talked, but we did not listen. That pushed the extremists among them into terrorism.
They want all of us dead or converted but we know they prefer dead.
Nope, they just want to be left alone, in peace.
They have no value of life period.
And US governments do, right? You stated yourself: you want to put a bullet through the heads of terrorists. Ever thought that those terrorists looked at the US and thought: "Well, they are so peaceful, they have never illegally overthrown a democratic government they did not like, they never invaded another country the last 40 years, they have never lied to their own people."? Large groups of people around the world see the US as a bullying oppressor (even a large number of people in Europe see it that way). Change US government actions, and you'll change that view and take away the breeding ground of terrorism.
The only thing they understand is violence so that's what they'll get.
You did not react on my arguments that this did not help with the IRA, nor with the ETA. You simply repeat your mantra.
Lastly we can try to understand all we want but it w
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:4, Insightful)
That's probably because many EU countries (I'm thinking of the nordic ones and the Benelux) are fundamentally more decent and liberal than the US. Just because the UK (with it's dodgy un-written "constitution") has regressed, it doesn't mean that the rest of the EU member-states have.
For example many of us have civil codes that are built on fair, just and easily understood principles rather than arbitrary precedant, proportional representation that means that every member of the electorate's vote counts, and a respectful approach to the environment.
Re:OK, but what happens if....? (Score:3, Insightful)
Wouldn't your case prove that this new system in necessary? At the time the authorities notice the mismatch in the fingerprints and photos, they know that a person with fake identity has entered the country + they have the fingerprint AND the photo of this person, so they could probably identify him or her. The only problem is to solve out which one is the person. But if this system doesn't exist this people would go unnoticed.
I wouldn't like to give my photo/fingerprint to a foreign country, but as long as secure passports doesn't exist I think this solution is acceptable. Too many people can enter a country with faked passport nowadays.
Hearing this on the news in the UK was amusing (Score:3, Insightful)
James
PS I think gloves will be an important travel accessory in the future!
Repeat after me: (Score:4, Insightful)
Everyone else knew this and yet you yanks still went ahead and invaded the place, thereby giving the Islamic fanatics yet another battle cry. Well done.
Next time, try actually making up your own minds instead of letting the garbage that passes for mass media in the US do it for you.
Now I know I will never visit... (Score:3, Insightful)
Please don't start with the "I have nothing to hide so what" comments, because they mean nothing. The fact that people are treated like a criminal before they ever committed a criminal offense is plain wrong. This, apart from the possibility that people are wrongfully accused.
I think the European parliament agrees, they didn't whistle Bolkestein (yes, the same person that loves software patents [ffii.org]) back from his deal with the US [airwise.com] for nothing.
Time will learn whether perhaps a mass drop in tourism and business-trips to the US will have an impact on this decision.
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:1, Insightful)
Good point!
Here in the UK, the BBC is giving an enormous amount of coverage to the US presidential campaign, as if we have any say (or interest) in the outcome.
Personally, I wish they would forget all about it, wait until it's all over, then make the generic announcement which suffices whenever any other nation (including those in the EU) has a general election:
Today, the people of [insert name of foreign country] elected [insert name] as [insert title of head of state]. UN observers say the election process was fair/flawed [delete as applicable, and elaborate if necessary]. [Insert name of Prime Minister] telephoned Mr/Mrs [delete as applicable] [insert surname] to congratulate him/her [delete as applicable], and said that he hopes the UK and [insert name of foreign country] can work together on [insert vague reference to issue of mutual interest].
Bye Bye America (Score:3, Insightful)
It's you guys I feel sorry for - your entire country is being branded as insane because of your government. In some ways we are suffering it in the UK as well, but in only a fraction of the extremety.
Re:This really sucks (Score:5, Insightful)
The only reason I'm getting away with it is that my father is British, and my mom's American, which means I *inherit* both. But, as the post above mentioned, I only show the US passport to the US customs folks. (and vice versa for the UK/EU customs folks.) While I suspect they'd handle it fine, it's never a good idea to tax their brains.
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:3, Insightful)
bus/train your're riding on when you visit
Do you really think that someone who is prepared to die to kill people will care if the government knows their identity? I'm sure it's really usefull when clearing up the bodies to know who did it.
Re:That isn't necessarily decisive (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:No way ! (Score:3, Insightful)
- I'm not sure the US of the 40's and the US of today are really the same country. The first was a country with strong principles, and applied them, well better than we applied ours. I can't count how many times I was admirative. The last, well, leaves somewhat to desire. Speaking of 4th reich like a previous post is of course BS, but what I admired in the 40's US is for the best part gone with the years...
- We (the whole EU) have as high standards as the US for delivering IDs and passports. The US administration today has full acces to all data from the airlines, comprising passport data and even credit card numbers, so why take it again if it isn't for not trusting us ?
- If you consider my post is "anti-american rethoric", please listen to Gaza or Tehran or a couple of other places in the third world for an example of what "anti-american rethoric" means. Or is it no longer allowable to write the faintest criticism against any US policy without being considered and enemy ?
- If we did the same at Paris airport with US citizens, how would you feel ? honestly ? I too got fingerprints and picture taken for my job, but until now we do not take them from US tourists and I did not hear we plan to do it. Altough some kind of "retaliation" could now emerge.
- About being there when we need you : We sure had an absolute need to join against Irak in 1991. We sure had a deep need to follow to Kabul en 2002. In both cases the reason for going to war were obvious and we followed you. For Irak in 2003 the reasons were, let's say, not so obvious.
I know where the ennemies of my country are, and I do NOT think they're in the US. If you look for someone "spewing anti-american rethoric" you're wrong, but I'm not willing to blindly applause on every american decision, and I can and will "vote with my feet" against this one.
Re:I, regrettfully, have to agree with this becaus (Score:3, Insightful)
Bingo! I take it you mean the Al Qaeda _leadership_. The leadership of such 'organisations' are likely to be the most extreme. The mass of followers are likely mislead and (ab)used by the leadership, which brings us to my original point: the US should change it foreign policy, force Israel to make peace with Palestine; this will take away the power the extremists have over the masses.
To say that Al Qaeda is interested in "freedom" or "peace" is a semantic flaw. Their definition of these terms are incompatible with the western world's at all.
If we were to meet face to face we would probably end up argreeing with each other for 99% about this subject. Al Qaeda, like (almost) all extremist movements, is abusing words to manipulate followers. I used these terms as a sort of devils advocate.
Re:I Just Cancelled My Ticket. (Score:2, Insightful)
We're now approx 2.5 years away from 9/11/01 and the USA is at this moment showing parallels to Germany in the early 30's when Hitler obtained power even though he had didn't have the majority of votes (Bush also didn't have majority), and laws like PATRIOT put large restraints on civil liberties just like many of the early Nazi laws did.
Now I'm not saying the US can't be corrected in its policies and I certainly won't put the Nazi party at the same level as the current administration but still.. it gets you thinking. I can imagine people are worried.
People will always be people. Germans aren't especially cruel compared to any other country so there's always the danger of a new Holocaust occuring. The Holocaust wasn't carried out on US soil so the memory of it may be less lively there. I just hope sometime soon the US government will see the error of its ways. There's no such thing as a "land of the free" with a big electrified fence around it. Many jews behind the Nazi ghetto walls thought they were safe then, many Americans think their modern "walls" will secure them now..
FYI I'm European and worried about developments in the US, Russia AND the EU at present.. the world is a mess and it rapidly got worse when Bush became president of the USA.