US Expands Fingerprint and Mugshot Program for Visitors 1073
prakslash writes "The US State Department has expanded its anti-terrorist fingerprinting program to include visitors from close US allies such as the UK, Australia, France, Germany and Japan. Everytime a visitor enters or leaves the US, they will have to get their mugshot and fingerprints taken - something that used to be mainly limited to your local police precinct. More news can be found here and here. In addition to the huge costs involved, one has to wonder if this will affect tourism to this country." Hmmm, a huge database of digital mugshots and digital fingerprints, which will be kept forever - hope we have enough RAM to search through it quickly and constantly.
Let's hope its reciprocated.... (Score:5, Interesting)
suits me as long as the action is reciprocated (Score:1, Interesting)
btw, I sure hope the state isn't going to pay for all this - I suggest a 20 Euro administration fee per stop.
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:2, Interesting)
George W Bush: Civil Rights Hero!
As a Canadian who works in the U.S. (Score:5, Interesting)
However, I do question the efficiency of the plan. I was fingerprinted and had my photo taken for a quickpass to get over the border called Nexus. It certainly seems like taking extra precautions against people who obey the law, cross the border lawfully every day, and pay taxes in your country is a strange focus for your limited resources.
But then again, it seems to me that attacking a country completely unrelated to the terrorist threat is a strange way to focus your resources.
Overall, this should be the decision of the people of the U.S.. It will certainly hassle visitors to your country, and make it seem unwelcoming even to the friendliest of tourists. It will also not stop the people determined to enter your country to harm you. However, it may make it a bit more difficult. Too bad it only takes one whacko with a suitcase nuke.
Personally, I think a lot of this stuff since 9/11 has been a knee jerk reaction. It's understandable, but it's completely illogical, if your goal is to prevent terrorism. You can't beat terrorism. By definition, it is the tool of the people who've already been beaten. It's a force you can't fight if you want to keep your principles.
I'm sad for you guys. Good luck though! I hope you figure yourself a way out of it.
I question the intelligence of some... (Score:2, Interesting)
I was coming back to LAX from a trip on Saturday, and I saw them taking pictures and fingerprints of "foriegn visitors"
As for me, the Immigrations guy did not trust my passport (its offical, its legal, it was issued by his agency) and demands that I produce a 2nd ID. I give him my drivers lic.
After studying both pieces of identification for a good 30-45 seconds, he comments that both pictures are the same.
I calmly tell him that he is not qualified to look at IDs because the picture on the DL was taken at the DMV when I was 16, while the passport photo was taken when I was 19.
-Grump
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:1, Interesting)
Clearly you're missing the point.
The bureaucrats have decided, in their wisdom, that more bureaucracy will keep everyone safe. Who are we to question their ways?
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:5, Interesting)
it's not the same. a better comparison IMHO would be gun conrols and getting a visa which is a permit to get into the country. Which is a good thing. So I think instead of making everyone feel like criminals by doing this, they should focus on a better way to check backgrounds, etc. when giving out visas. Also it would be a good thing to have very secure visas as to not have someone have their own fake visa.
I dont know if I'm making much sense.. alcohol is not letting me think...
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:3, Interesting)
Well I guess I've had my last trip to the US (Score:1, Interesting)
Quite frankly I like my cousins to the south, it's just the government that scares the living piss out of me.
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:5, Interesting)
I know you mean well, but please do bear in mind that other countries [statewatch.org] had this policy for a while. I can only point and laugh that *all* of you go through this now instead of just a select, singled out minority.
In that particular instance that I linked to above, the choice given was stark: if you go to that country, follow the rules *they* impose on your visit, or don't go. Simple as that.
It's not like fingerprinting you is really a big deal in itself, especially if you don't intend staying on in the US. However, the message that this sends out very clearly is that the country no longer welcomes visitors. Hey, fingerprinting is something that I associate with being done just before you're marched into jail, not otherwise.
Re:Say goodbye to your science conferences... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:This really sucks (Score:5, Interesting)
Upon arriving at LAX on his last trip, he was taken aside and asked how he became a US citizen. What right he had to be one etc. It seems I was born here you idiots isn't enough when you've been to NZ, which we all know is the hot bed of south pacific terrorism.
Don't worry, be happy (Score:1, Interesting)
which will be kept forever - hope we have enough RAM.
In ten years the zoom on digital motion cameras will be good enough to grab your fingerprints on-the-fly.
The algorithms we create for facial recognition will uniquely identify a person with under a dozen factors.
And in ten years those 2 marks will be easily stored and manipulated in just the CPU cache at the rate of 100/ms
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:5, Interesting)
The U.S. is THE biggest arms dealer in the world. They have absolutely NO interest in resolving the Mideast thing, or any other conflict for that matter.
The Mexican border is probably pretty tight compared to the Canadian border, but there's not too many Canadians crossing over looking for the "good life". So, it's not going to get the press coverage.
Man, I would love to see a concerted effort by everyone to avoid doing any business with the Americans until they come down off their high horse and start treat others with some respect. Judging from the American farmer strike a long time ago, entertainment boycotts, etc., it's not bloody likely.
Re:how would you feel? (Score:3, Interesting)
You'd be surprised... (Score:5, Interesting)
The Canada/US border is vast, but people *are* watching. Chances are, it has been determined that you're harmless.
Re:You're obviously sarcastic... (Score:2, Interesting)
Well, in some cases, citizens already need to be fingerprinted even when not suspected of any crime. (Generally when starting a government job)
I was fingerprinted when I started my job four years ago; it's not really a big deal. I'm not one to be overly trusting of the government, but I'm not all that sure why I need to worry about them having my fingerprints on file either.
Re:And fingerprints stop hijackings, how? (Score:2, Interesting)
Some of the 9/11 hijackers were already on a terrorist "watch list". [signonsandiego.com] The US government already had a list of 'bad guys' that was reasonably accurate. But this does no good if you can't match the list of bad guys against the list of people who are entering the country!
Police in charge of state = police state (Score:1, Interesting)
The days of building big old walls to keep people out are over. Bush and his cronies would do a lot better to spend that effort and money on improving the world relations that they are actively severing, not to mention fixing problems that kill far more Americans every year than terrorism, like car accidents and cancer.
This administration is an embarrassment and is turning us into a rogue state. 4 more years of Bush and it won't be safe for Americans to travel.
Re:what do you want? (Score:3, Interesting)
copying fingerprints (Score:2, Interesting)
On the other hand with printers become as good as they are, whats stopping someone from taking prints from the database and printing them on somelatexgloves and leaving someone elses finger prints at a crime sceene? Now I could convict anyone I had a problem with because they entered the country.
My tinfoil hat is comming loose so i better wrap this up.
Purpose to limit foreign visitors (Score:5, Interesting)
If you think I'm being paranoid, consider that the 20th century's worst dictator's unleashed their fury against "cosmopolitan" elements in their societies. Both Stalin and Hitler considered "foreign" elements a threat to their rule and crushed them without mercy. Part of keeping your own population docile in ensuring they never have the opportunity to see how citizens of other countries live.
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:4, Interesting)
You're probably right. I sure hope you are. One night FOX was speculating whether or not there should be "some kind of control" against "liberal" sites like moveon.org, etc. Obviously they're getting nervous. The gov't is trying to pass some new anti-pirate law, linking P2P with kiddy porn in order to whip up the troops. (old story, I know, but some house sub-committe(sp) just "passed" some new copyright resolution) My point is that they are already worried about the net.
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:4, Interesting)
Depends on how you define "legally." IIRC their applications were horribly out of order and if the people in charge of reviewing the applications did their jobs they wouldn't have gotten into the country. It's like saying that driving at 90 MPH is legal because you didn't get pulled over/tire spiked/whatever.
All in all, it's just another example of Congress passing new laws when what we really need is better enforcement of existing ones.
Fingerprints == phlogiston? (Score:2, Interesting)
I mean, I've been told that - we've all been told that for at least a century, maybe two. But has there ever been a significant study that actually checked that?
I'd love to see that, just to put my conscience to rest. The biggest assumption that biometric identification makes is that it is actually a unique identifier, but I haven't seen any evidence that this has been proved to be true.
Anyone who wants to point me to such a study would put my mind at ease.
The irony of this is ... (Score:4, Interesting)
just got from an amazing race style of holiday (Score:3, Interesting)
generally, i view their country peaceful. i don't see any necessity with it. i view that the people in malaysia and thailand are particularly friendly and that reduces terroristic attacks to them, imho. they are also very friendly to tourists and others.
on the other hand, the usa keeps on irritating people entering their country. the only thing it affects is tourism. i have a us visa. i have plans to go to the usa for some vacation but given this, i'll probably go to china, japan and korea instead.
usa is indirectly challenging the terrorists. it's like we keep our systems secure so crackers/hackers would not mess with us. of course, someone will be able to break in stealthily and the us government will not have any clue (just like the 9/11.) after something happens, the us government will patch some things up and the thing repeats all over again.
i would like to say that maybe if the usa will be more friendly (i'm not saying they are not, but i don't see it) to others, then maybe other parties will be open. much like fighting, you will not achieve anything by hitting the other person. it just aggravates the situation. though i cannot provide any contrete examples now, maybe they can start by being friendly to countries and opening and increasing dialogue talks. you wouldn't know the problem unless you ask the party about it.
Kiss My Ashcroft (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:3, Interesting)
No...just the American voter. Why won't they even nominate a decent person into one party or the other?
Re:what do you want? (Score:5, Interesting)
What's scarier? That s/he posted that, or that I take him/her seriously?
I used to be highly anti-gun...
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:0, Interesting)
I thank your government for supporting us. There are still some countries that are lying to themselves including the US. Our borders are unprotected. Thousands of container ships come into our country each year. Most (about 90%) are not checked.
The new Spanish leader thinks that by removing troops from the middleast his country will be safer. Well they found another bomb on the train tracks today. I hope he realizes that deals cannot be made.
Radical people (not just terrorists) do not listen to reason. Trying to work out a deal peacefully with a terrorist is not possible. If a person does believe it is possible I'll allow them to go over there and work things out. I'm sure they will be successful.
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:4, Interesting)
Obviously in the 3rd paragraph that should read "250+ million individuals."
And now, before anybody goes off on me about the individual faults of US policy (internal or external), I'd like to again state that I know things are only getting worse. It needs to change, but that is the way every country goes. The politicos grab power and impose law to keep their power. The people have to get that power back (or just stop giving it away). And even those methods don't last forever.
No great civilization in history has lasted forever. I doubt the US will be magic #1 in this regard. But this country certainly has a solid enough foundation (Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc..) that it can at least remain free for many more generations, if we as a citizenry choose to stand up for ourselves.
Anyhow, thats it for my addendum/rant/what-have-you.
Re:how would you feel? (Score:2, Interesting)
As a canadian... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:As a Canadian who works in the U.S. (Score:3, Interesting)
What I don't understand is why forigners care. You already have to stand in a long line, get talked to by some semi-literate GS-6 while they look at your passport. What does it matter if also while that happens a camera snaps your picture and a digital reader grabs your finger print? I mean, this changes anything how?
I think people are right to question the utility we get for the cost, but are WAAAAAY over reacting to what is actually being done. The government has photographed and/or fingerprinted me a couple times, and never for a crime. I don't care, it IS their right to know who I am. It isn't their right to watch my every move, but that doesn't mean they aren't allowed to know who I am.
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Let's hope its reciprocated.... (Score:1, Interesting)
China started today to take the same procedure.
I Just Cancelled My Ticket. (Score:5, Interesting)
This was not a decision taken lightly, but we just can't bring ourselves to donate any of the little money we have to a nation rapidly becoming the Fourth Reich and which treats its guests and visitors as if they are apprehended criminals undergoing processing down at the jailhouse.
Re:Your identification papers, Fraulein! (Score:5, Interesting)
Joseph Goebbels, the Third Reich's equivalent to Karl Rove, was a pioneer of the "wired office". He used radio, phone, and teletype links extensively. German had a very good switched teletype network in that period, and the Reich used it to control much of the country from Berlin, rather than delegate to local authorities.
Re:Let's hope its reciprocated.... (Score:3, Interesting)
I tended to think the same for a while, but having considered it, I have to admit that most international US travellers who I've met here (I'm in New Zealand) have been much more enlightened about the rest of the world than the people who probably back this type of legislation in the US.
I don't know if it's a smart thing to punish them just because their government does something stupid, and I also don't want to contribute to discouraging US citizens from actually getting out and seeing the rest of the world.
On the other hand, I'd have absolutely no problem with requiring tedious entry procedures for US government officials. The thought of Bush and his entire travel comeraderie being required to have their photo and fingerprints taken before entering other countries just makes me laugh. It won't happen, of course -- the US just has far too much international influence.
Re:I, regrettfully, have to agree with this becaus (Score:5, Interesting)
And why do you think this happened? Because terrorists do not like Mickey Mouse?
I am an independent/idealist who operates on common sense.
Then please, use that common sense.
We, as people in the US, are walking around daily as the biggest targets in the world.
Why not do something about it? Why not find out why you are hated so much by groups of people? Why not try and step into the shoes of a 16 year old palestine boy who had his brother killed simply because he was at the wrong place at the wrong time? Why not try and see how supporting a dictatorship (Cuba before Castro, Persia (Iran) when the Shah ruled there, Irak!!!) makes the people under that dictatorship view the US as a whole? Years and years of dirty tricks and interfering and meddling in other countries' are causing what you see now. Why not criticize your government and tell them to order the CIA to keep its nose out of other people's business?
I love my country and I love my life.
Why in that order? Why do you put your country before yourself or your loved ones? Do you know that 'training' people in pre-WW-II Germany to 'love' their country no matter what (Blut und Boden, blood and ground) let to the rise of nationalistic fascism?
(...) kill for twisted beliefs (...)
Sure. Whatever you do, do NOT try to understand the other side. Just call their believes 'twisted' and be done with it. Thats so much more easy than having to think about why the status quo is as it became.
They were bombed, the innocent died, and they came together as a nation.
The innocent died; yes, this is exactely what the terrorists want. In their eyes innocent people on 'their side' die every day, while the 'civilised' world actively supports their killers. They see no way out, except by terrorism. And as I see it, the spanish people did not come together as a nation, but they 'rewarded' their right wing government with a clear defeat in the elections, resulting in a left wing government.
I hope people can understand and Turn-about is fair play if they want to mug/print me.
Either you never read 1984, or you did not understand it fully. This is exactly what Bin Laden wants: he wants the people in the west to have to go through road blocks, random searches, an overall loss of personal freedom. Why, because in his eyes we then suffer the same as a lot of muslims under US-backed governments.
Extremism is a world wide infection that if we don't squash it then we are all doomed as are our freedoms.
Sure! Squash 'em all. Just like the ETA, they should be squashed! Yeah, that's what really works! Just squash em long enough, and they will stop. Know what? Spain has been trying to squash the ETA for > 35 years now. Guess they haven't tried long enough, ey? Same goes for the IRA; they are illegal since 1936. Yup, kill them all. Once the current generation of terrorists has been killed, there will not ever be a new generation of terrorists, no sir.
Please get me straight: I strongly dissapprove of terrorism; I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who kill or injure innocent people. There is however no way we are going to get rid of this by the kneejerk reactions seen in the US and some other countries. Trying to understand terrorists and seeing how and why they came to be terrorists in the first place might just be more useful than fighting them, because you simply cannot win. History has taught us that. Please, for the love of freedom, open your eyes and your mind; do not let yourself be brainwashed by power-hungry politicians and their media. You seem like an intelligent person, please use that intelligence to try and look further than what you are being shown.
Hassled at Airport (Score:2, Interesting)
I recently went to the US for a job interview. At immigration, they asked me to justify why I was staying for only two days. As soon as I mentioned I was here for a job interview, I was taken to the police center where a couple of ex-convicts without appropriate visas were also waiting.
I had to wait 30 mins for a police officer to take me to a small room for questioning! He was concerned that I might be working illegally and reminded me of the visa procedures.
As a british citizen, I have never dealt with the police and usually never get stopped for anything. This was a first for me. I felt accused, unwelcomed, rejected and insulted.
Also, the skilled worker H1B visa have run out this year, which means I can't start working until November earliest. This means that I'll probably look for a job elsewhere. In my opinion this is a loss to the US, since they should try to attract highly educated people like myself (in all modesty of course ;) ).
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:3, Interesting)
Fourth Reich indeed.
Re:I Just Cancelled My Ticket. (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:what do you want? (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Alright, this isn't even funny. (Score:3, Interesting)
This tendency for first-past-the-post systems to create 2-party systems is called Duverger's Law [worldhistory.com], and a common consequence of it is the spoiler effect [worldhistory.com]. For example, in the last US presidential election Nader's candidacy "spoiled" the election for Gore, by taking away enough votes from Gore in many states to give Bush enough votes to win the electors in those states.
No matter how appealing a third candidate may be and how unappealing the 2 front-runners, you must vote for one of the 2 front-runners. Often this means voting against the front-runner you dislike most rather than voting for the front-runner you prefer.
If you think this situation sucks, campaign for proportional representation [worldhistory.com], where everyone's votes count.
Re:Your identification papers, Fraulein! (Score:3, Interesting)
Exile was the proposed answer instead.
I have, on my refrigerator, a picture of a man in the Netherlands. The picture dates back about a month ago. He has sewn his own eyes and mouth shut with heavy thread. He is being held his tearful Dutch wife. He is one of thousands of Iraqis that is now being forced out of the country, to go back to Iraq, thanks to pressure from Bush. I would like to know what more people have to do to get their message across -- that they they are desperate and being treated horribly badly.
Re:what do you want? (Score:2, Interesting)
Also, please stop fucking up countries all over the world, yeah we're greatful you helped us stop hitler and all, but that doesn't give you the right to bully every country in the world.
Re: A Fingerprint's Rights (Score:2, Interesting)
I lived in China for 6 months and crossed the HK/China border about once a week. One day while waiting in line to cross, I saw security going to each booth and collecting those 'papers' that you fill out from each station - in garbage bags! So your assumption is right - they are certainly not verified.
Re:I, regrettfully, have to agree with this becaus (Score:3, Interesting)
>Look into history: Spain was once occupied by the (muslim) Moors; under their reign christians as well as jews could openly have their own religion.
Under the Moors, the Jews were allowed practice of their religion and so forth. Under the Christians, we had the Spanish Inquision, and mass slaughter of Jews. If we're going for interolerance, in this case the Christians come out quite far ahead. Of course, there are examples to the contrary as well.
Lea
Degrading and useless (Score:3, Interesting)
I really don't blame anyone for not wanting to come here. When visiting other countries the worst part of the trip was coming home through US Customs. It was bad before 9-11 and that was for US citizens.
It does feel more right wing and intrusive lately. I love my country, but I'm really concerned by the spread of quasi-religious angry dogmatism of the right. We're losing the image of the US being the greatest place in the world to live. More people are now thinking, "Whew, glad I don't live there." And for many here the American dream has gone from a house in the country to a house in another country.
We were seriously thinking about moving to NZ before 9-11. The other day I saw a bumper sticker that said, "If you don't like it, get out." It reminded me to get my application of interest ready.
Re:Let's hope its reciprocated.... (Score:2, Interesting)
Seriously, this is how it happened. A judge just said that due to the concept of "reciprocity" in Brazilian law, it must be done. He did not even give time for the infrastructure to be put in place. He signed his law to take effect within a week. The first groups through got inkpads and polaroids.
The Brazilians are no happier about this than we are. They don't want to tick off tourists. They didn't know where they money was coming from to pay for the cameras and fingerprint readers and computers.
The reasonable Brazilians petitioned to be removed from the list of countries who require visas and fingerprints.
I went to Brazil a couple weeks ago. Coming in through GIG (Rio de Janeiro) was a joke. All the Americans waited in line with everyone else. This was a good couple hours. Once we got our passports and visas checked and stamped the Americans were told to join another, longer line for the photograph and the fingerprints.
It was unrelated to our entry into the country. With the stamp in the passport we had already "entered." This was just another step in the spirit of "reciprocity." It took another couple hours. The camera was a Connectix web cam attached to a laptop. The Windoze "asterix" sound played when the technician took my picture.
Good times, good times.
Re:Let's hope its reciprocated.... (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:I wouldn't visit the United States (Score:3, Interesting)
Depends somewhat on exactly what type of bomb you want. For conventional explosives your are probably better off making your bomb in the same country as your target.
On the other hand you might have a need to smuggle that nuclear warhead you bought off those nice Pakistani scientists into the US. In that case hiding it in the heroin shipment might be your best bet.