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Music Media Businesses Apple

Real Begs Apple for Alliance 387

hype7 writes "In a an extremely forward move, CEO of Real Networks Rob Glaser has emailed Steve Jobs, imploring him to open up Apple's AAC Digital Rights Management System - FairPlay - to Real. The upside for Real - all music sold by them would be compatible with the iPod. The upside for Apple - Real would make the iPod its primary device for the RealNetworks store and for the RealPlayer software. However, Mr. Glaser wasn't just dangling carrots - he implied that should Apple not be a receptive partner for an alliance, he would be forced to look towards Microsoft. There was a similar post made not too long ago, with BusinessWeek's take on the whole thing." There's a Reuters story as well.
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Real Begs Apple for Alliance

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  • Good! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Steamhead ( 714353 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:20AM (#8869565) Homepage
    I say good! No matter how much we thing real sucks here, this can only be good, a good easy DRM (hopefully) and another thing that will work with iPods. How can this be bad?
  • by MurrayTodd ( 92102 ) * on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:22AM (#8869594) Homepage
    As much as I love my Macs, having shifted away from Linux the day the first OS X Public Beta was released, I have to admit I really get annoyed by Apple's draconian behavior when it comes to holding onto hardware monopolies.

    It's very much like Microsoft, but with a twist. Some of my least favorite stunts:

    1. Not allowing a person to upgrade a DVD/CD drive to a Superdrive. I bought my PowerMac two months before the superdrive was released. I get to use stupid DVD-RAM disks, but I can't burn DVD's unless I buy a whole new computer.

    2. Apple keeps its iSync API locked up. There are millions of really cool things I could do to make Apple able to synchronize with things like LDAP servers, competing browsers, PC's, etc. But then Apple could use it as a leverage-point to keep people subscribing to the overpriced .Mac program.

    3. USB video cameras, like the ubiquitous Logitech QuickCam, just don't work (well) and Apple seems to have put blocks into place to refuse iChat AV from working with anything but their iSight hardware product. (I exaggerate a little bit here, but not much.)

    The iPod Quicktime-AAC is just another example. Where Microsoft fights to protect it's OS dominence, Apple refuses to make its customers' lives better if it suggests that they might loose the odd dollar in missed hardware sales opportunities.
  • by novakane007 ( 154885 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:23AM (#8869612) Homepage Journal
    I love the AAC format. I use Winamp Pro to play and encode songs with AAC.
    I despise Real Player and it's unreasonable level of pop-ups and advertising. It is one of the most invasive pieces of software out there.
  • by Ars-Fartsica ( 166957 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:23AM (#8869621)
    It won't find one. For whatever reason - a crappy client, death-by-Microsoft, etc...Real is no longer relevant in the media marketplace. It had to happen - between Quicktime/AAC, Windows Media, MP3, and even Ogg, there was no room whatsoever for a codec, client, and company with nothing to offer.

    Real won't be missed, it hasn't done anything of value to the marketplace or userbase for years now.

  • by ThomasFlip ( 669988 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:23AM (#8869622)
    Is that really a threat ? Does Rob Glaser really think Microsoft would ally with Real networks ? I could see Microsoft maybe buying them out, but has Microsoft ever allied with direct competition ? It seems like more of an empty threat to me.
  • by Dark Paladin ( 116525 ) * <jhummel.johnhummel@net> on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:26AM (#8869661) Homepage
    Granted, I don't care for real, even though "Air America" seems to like it (hello? Streamed MP3, folks - more universal, damn it!)

    Anyway. It all boils down to "What does Apple want?" If it wants to sell iPods, this is part of the whole "killer move" thing. Right now, I can use my iPod with iTunes Music Store and Audible.com. And since I already shelled out $300 for this portable hard drive/music player, if you're not compatible, I don't want to hear it.

    Licensing Fairplay to Real (and yes, I know that Fairplay isn't owned by Apple, but I'm willing to bet they've got an "exclusive agreement" and enough clout to convince the actual owners to let Real in on the fun) would, as the header notes, make the iPod work with Rhapsody. I'm not about to sign up for Rhapsody, but all of the sudden, those "Apple's trying to lock you into their own technology" arguments go out the window. And it sets a good precident: ask Apple nicely, and you can use their service.

    But - this is only if Apple sees the prize as iPods. If they see the prize as becoming the de facto standard for online music, which would put them in a very powerful position, they could say "Hm - we have about 60% of all legal music downloads now, and the #1 portable MP3 players. Forget it, Real."

    Personally, I think a combination of the two is in order: license with Real as they did with Audible.com. Let Real sell "iPod compatible" songs off of Rhapsody and whatever - but make those same tunes available through iTMS, just like you can buy Audible's site or through the iTunes interface. Everybody gets to sell something, and Apple will gain the "subscription services" so people can pick and choose thier poisen.

    Of course, I could be totally wrong - but I won't mind if this scenario plays out.
  • by Altima(BoB) ( 602987 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:26AM (#8869664)
    Exactly. Even though Apple may be accused of high prices, when it comes to software and things like iTunes and its music store, Apple seem to have pleasing consumers as a top priority, the whole Fairplay system is only as cool as it is because Apple wrestled with the Music Indistry on our behalf. Okay I know they are far from altruistic, they are there to make a profit, but they do this by not pissing customers off.

    Cut to Real. Ouch, just finiding their free player on their site is a pain in the ass, not to mention all the spyware, the bloated nature of their products... their number one seems to be their advertisers, then their bottom line, then the consumer. My opinion of Apple would go down if they associated themselves with these fools.
  • by Seth Finklestein ( 582901 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:26AM (#8869672) Journal
    When I switched to Mac OS X 10.3 "Panther" last year, one of the key reasons was the complete lack of adware and spyware on the Mac OS platform. My computer is my own, and is not for sale to the highest bidder. That's why I don't use RealPlayer. It's my choice.

    Frankly, RealPlayer should not pressure Apple to do anything. Real represent all that is evil with software: they took a mediocre player (RealPlayer G2) and made it into a horrible mess of marketroid-fueled insanity. You can't even "quit" RealPlayer without being assaulted with pop-up ads begging you to buy the so-called "Gold" version.

    Apple respects the consumer. That's why I pray they will never, ever, bow to this so-called "pressure" from Real.
  • Thoughts (Score:2, Insightful)

    by dolo666 ( 195584 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:28AM (#8869705) Journal
    Here is why monopolies are really harmful for business. What if Apple wasn't there for Real to look at for partnership? Monopolies only help deteriorate the creativity and human progress. Foward thinking companies realize that in order to perform excellent corporate execution, symbiotic relationships are not only necessary, they are profitable.
  • by Rethcir ( 680121 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:28AM (#8869713)
    It seems like everyone is overlooking how RealPlayer is one of the most obnoxious programs in the universe. It puts itself all over your computer (system tray, explorer bar, etc), is loaded down with ads and spyware, and so forth. I pretty much refuse to ever support anything involving real, since it's such a crappy crappy suite of programs. I would laud the kind folks at apple (even though I'm a PC user) for making themselves as much of a pain in the ass to Real as they are to their users!
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:30AM (#8869737)
    Real Audio is a dying format and Glasser knows this. This is a last ditch effort to try and make something before they begin to fold. Why would Microsoft suddenly work with them after Real just fucked them over in Europe?

    What a crack addict.

  • by BortQ ( 468164 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:31AM (#8869749) Homepage Journal
    I'd think that such a 'strategic alliance' would be discussed in person, or at least over the phone. A single email message doesn't really say commitment.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:33AM (#8869775)
    No kidding. Every time Microsoft has gotten itself raked over in a court of law, Rob Glaser and crew have been the guys holding the pitchfork. Real can "look towards Microsoft" all they want, but MS has absolutely no reason to work with them, and every reason to tell them to go purify themselves in Lake Minnetonka.

    Funny thing, karma. Suck it down, Real!
  • by Grimster ( 127581 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:33AM (#8869777) Homepage
    Please, let them BOTH ignore Real and let the bastards die the slow agonizing death they so RICHLY deserve.

    Has anyone really used their junk since like version 3 or 4 when it became so laden with addons and hidden hitchhikers that no one in their right mind would install their crap?

    So hopefully both M$ and Apple will ignore Real networks and then Real will hopefully die soon.

    Yeah I know, dream on, but hey, I'm a romantic at heart.
  • by Seth Finklestein ( 582901 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:35AM (#8869798) Journal
    1. Not allowing a person to upgrade a DVD/CD drive to a Superdrive. I bought my PowerMac two months before the superdrive was released. I get to use stupid DVD-RAM disks, but I can't burn DVD's unless I buy a whole new computer.

    Or you could just buy an superiour quality DVD recorder [macminute.com] from a third-party. Unlike Microsoft, Apple allows you to use all standards-compliant hardware with their DVD burning software.

    2. Apple keeps its iSync API locked up. There are millions of really cool things I could do to make Apple able to synchronize with things like LDAP servers, competing browsers, PC's, etc. But then Apple could use it as a leverage-point to keep people subscribing to the overpriced .Mac program.

    Funny that you mention LDAP; Apple supports LDAP in its acclaimed Mail application [macosxhints.com], so you don't need to write so much as a speck of code to enable it. Getting LDAP support to work is easy as pie.

    I don't subscribe to .Mac, yet I can still use every iApp with ease. Perhaps Joe Sixpack needs his hand held, but I don't.

    3. USB video cameras, like the ubiquitous Logitech QuickCam, just don't work (well) and Apple seems to have put blocks into place to refuse iChat AV from working with anything but their iSight hardware product. (I exaggerate a little bit here, but not much.)

    Such is the price of progress. Face it: USB cameras simply don't have the throughput to push television-quality video the likes of which iChat AV with Pixlet can support. Would you take vacation photos with a so-called "camera phone" [mobog.com]? I know I wouldn't. My wife and children enjoy seeing me using iSight: it's a high-quality multivisual experience. Sorry that your piece-of-junk QuickCam won't work with it.
  • Let Real Die (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Facekhan ( 445017 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:35AM (#8869800)
    "they are dying."
    "Let them die."

    I will not miss Real too much and I know very few of us will. They make a buggy crappy player and it competed with another buggy crappy player for a different equally crappy format. The company with the bigger bank account won. No surprise there. I play my .rm files in WMP anyways thanks to the RealAlternative codec.

    Apple has nothing to gain by helping Real and it is unlikely that Microsoft wants anything to do with Real except maybe to wait until they are about to collapse and buy them out to own the format.

    No one uses Realplayer to play mp3's except for those systems that downloaded the RealOne operating system and can't use anything else to play media files anymore.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:38AM (#8869843)
    I'm sure Glaser has "no idea" how his proposal was leaked.

    There's no way Jobs (or anyone at Apple) is going to respond to such a blatant PR move by a floundering company less than 1/10 its size.

    Microsoft has the deep pockets and market power to win with these kinds of strong-arm blackmail tactics, but Real? Come on.

    I think it's sad Glaser is doing it this way, because there are good arguments for Apple opening up Fairplay to other music services. But Apple is very secretive about its partnerships and alliances (Apple writes into its contracts with manufacturing outsourcing and component producers that they can't publicly admit to it) and they won't want to be seen as even responding to this kind of public pressure from a piss-ant company like Real.
  • by SlamMan ( 221834 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:38AM (#8869850)
    Well, that first one's not to accurate. Pop out your combo drive, toss in a Superdrive. You can't buy it directly from Apple but what other computer manufacturer sells you upgrade parts?

    Or get an external one. They work great too.

    The iSync API pisses me off as well though. We'd love to develop inhouse syncing conduits, but can't.
  • by BrerBear ( 8338 ) * on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:40AM (#8869886)
    Real Audio is a dying format and Glasser knows this. This is a last ditch effort to try and make something before they begin to fold. Why would Microsoft suddenly work with them after Real just fucked them over in Europe?

    Probably for the same reasons Microsoft would want to work with Sun after Sun dogged them for years. Microsoft would look at the deal objectively, and not emotionally, the way you did.

    There are still plenty of sites out there that use or require the RealAudio format, and it's not dying anytime soon. Getting Real to switch to WMA would give Microsoft a slam dunk monopoly in streaming media. Why wouldn't Microsoft want that?

  • by Seth Finklestein ( 582901 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:41AM (#8869892) Journal
    I'll need to see the source code before I'm inclined to believe that.

    Sorry. Real lost my trust years ago, and it'll take a tarball of C code to restore it.
  • by SurfTheWorld ( 162247 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:41AM (#8869905) Homepage Journal
    Apple has come a *long* way in the past few years against really long odds. The OS X platform has revived interest in the PowerPC platform, and nowadays people with Macs (G5 desktops or G4 laptops) are prevalent. Combine that with Apple's music revolution (online music store) and their iPod and I think it's safe to say that Apple has really pulled itself up out of the dungeon.

    Real on the other hand is one of the most misunderstood companies out there. Legitimate on the exterior, Real is all but that at it's core (http://jogin.com/weblog/archives/2004/03/06/real_ reply).

    Real is deceptive, not technologically innovative, and unfriendly towards Linux.

    Apple partnering with Real would be a horrible position to take.

    It took a lot of work to get Darwin and Panther to work. No doubt Apple has *very intelligent* people working for them. Take some of the talent pool, and direct them towards developing a streaming media protocol that leverages existing formats (mpeg for example). Real hasn't done anything quite innovative lately (yes, their protocol was innovative when it came out ?5? years ago).

    I have no doubt in my mind that Apple could put together:
    a.) a more efficient wire protocol
    b.) reach more people than Real
    c.) make the interface intuitive and able to be skinned / themed
    d.) do this in less time

    Real is dying (search /. for Real and you'll find posts about MLB suing them and radio stations considering ditching them in favor of media player). Apple hitching their wagon to Real is flat out dumb.

  • by Jeff DeMaagd ( 2015 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:44AM (#8869945) Homepage Journal
    USB cameras simply don't have the throughput to push television-quality video

    Apple's camera isn't TV quality either. TV quality video requires at minimum a three-chip camera, and they don't sell for less than $1500.
  • by Octagon Most ( 522688 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:49AM (#8870011)
    At the risk of being labeled a fanboy, I disagree with part of your assertion. Apple does indeed lock hardware owners into an upgrade cycle of buying a new computer for new technology instead of easy upgrading. That's the Faustian bargain of being a Mac owner. I accept it but understand why many don't. Part of the equation is that the hardware is tightly controlled to maintain the usability standards. Would you really want the platform open to the point that you could slap any old hardware in there and pray for no driver conflicts? If so then there is a platform already that works that way. But that's another topic....

    Where I differ in opinion is with your complaint about Apple locking their software to their own expensive hardware and services.

    "2. Apple keeps its iSync API locked up [...] keep people subscribing to the overpriced .Mac program.

    3. USB video cameras, like the ubiquitous Logitech QuickCam, just don't work [...] with anything but their iSight hardware product. (I exaggerate a little bit here, but not much.)"


    It's Apple's sales strategy to develop free, or low cost, software to sell additional hardware and services. I hardly see anything wrong with that. In fact it's a great strategy since the software is excellent and there are alternatives available so you are not locked in. You can use AIM or Yahoo messenger instead of iChat if you choose. Yes, I wish my Logitech camera worked with iChat AV because I don't want to buy the expensive iSight camera. But I think it's fair that they give me a great IM program and offer advanced video features if I choose to use the supported hardware. Again, I can choose otherwise and am not locked in. Same with iSync, it's free and works with a lot of things out of the box. But you get more if you buy their .Mac service. It would be nice to have great software for free that does everything we want it to, but it's perfectly legitimate for Apple to recoup their development costs for those programs by using them to sell more stuff.
  • by brutus_007 ( 769774 ) <slashdot@cod e - j e d i.com> on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:50AM (#8870037)
    "You can't even 'quit' RealPlayer without being assaulted with pop-up ads begging you to buy the so-called 'Gold' version."

    Unlike Apple's Quicktime, which assaults you to buy the full version every time it starts up. No "Do not show me this again" or "Never" option and no way to navigate to the only possible option - "Later"
  • by artemis67 ( 93453 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:51AM (#8870046)
    Maybe I'm missing something, but if Real switches over to WMA, then why even bother with RealPlayer?

    At first, I thought an Apple/Real alliance might be a good thing. After all, it's well known that iTMS is a loss-leader for Apple, so why not let Real have a share of the red ink?

    However, if Real is trying to form an alliance, it can only mean that they believe that they are in trouble. In that case, having no alliance would mean that the market would only shake out Real that much more quickly, leaving Apple and Microsoft as the sole competitors.

    Still, Apple is not good at forming strategic alliances. They always underestimate Microsoft. Always. An alliance with Real might slow Real's departure, but it also might slow Microsoft's advance, and for that reason should be seriously considered.

    But here we have Glasser insulting Jobs in the press. Gee, when was the last time YOU were won over by public insults.

    So yeah, Jobs should probably accept, but he's not gonna, because he's got too much pride.
  • Re:Image! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 15, 2004 @11:52AM (#8870073)
    Last time I tried it, QuickTime was bugging me to buy a "pro" version.
  • Re:Image! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dave420 ( 699308 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @12:26PM (#8870613)
    Your comparison is slightly skewed... Apple makes a tiny, miniscule proportion of its earnings from Quicktime players. Real, on the other hand, gets most of its revenue from them. Apple makes its money charging creative prices for hardware, so pissing people off buying a media player is not a good idea at all, as it serves no purpose.
  • by AKnightCowboy ( 608632 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @12:43PM (#8870939)
    They did that for realplayer 10 for the PC to, no spyware. Looks like they are changing their tune.

    When someone comes up and takes a dump on my desk it's very hard for me to take them seriously from that point on. I've very reluctantly gone back to using TurboTax this year, but Real has continually defectated upon not only my desk, but my keyboard, chair, and my new living room carpet. They can suck it.

  • Re:AirAmerica (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Hassman ( 320786 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @02:04PM (#8872139) Journal
    Email them! I have. The best way to get things to change is to take an active role and tell them what you would like to see.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 15, 2004 @03:06PM (#8873064)
    When you agree to the End-User Licence Agreement for those commercial products, you acknowledge that the software's author has the right to confirm that you are using the product legitimately. You have no right to use Photoshop without having paid $700 (or $50 if you're a student) for it, and you have no right to use MS Office if you haven't paid $500 (or $10 if you're a student).

    Honestly, you PC users are terrible. All you ever do is pirate software and think you have a right to do so.

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