Shifting From P2P To Stream Ripping 577
An anonymous reader submits "As users continue to try fending off the ever more litigious music industry, some
seem to have dropped P2P entirely, moving to ripping instead. While
they lose some control over what they are downloading, it's a untraceable way
to download music (no way for the RIAA to track users or sue). With some
of the more powerful software that's been coming out recently, stream
ripping has become more main-stream. Some of the more well known software
packages, like StationRipper, allow
users to download several thousand songs on a daily basis. And, depending
on how you read the law, it's 100% legal. How will the RIAA respond?
As more users move to this type of technology to avoid the P2P lawsuits, how
will the music industry respond?"
Re:Just make sure... (Score:5, Interesting)
The one time I let it rip a channel for an entire day and ended up with every song being useless, unless I play it back in the same order DI did, as a good 3 second shift occured in every song compared to the ID3 tag being broadcast... pain in the ass!
What's the equivalent for movies? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Expect "internet radio" to disappear (Score:4, Interesting)
Satellite Radio XM PCR (Score:5, Interesting)
How about this from the article itself (Score:5, Interesting)
"Well, some of the comments are a bit misleading. It's not clear just how mainstream this technology really is, and it's certainly not nearly as user friendly for users as basic file sharing applications. The idea is that it records songs directly from streaming radio stations (though, right now, it looks like only certain kinds of streaming radio stations work with the software). Also, copying a song off the radio (which is this basically equivalent to) often involves a lower quality offering with songs cutting into each other, DJs talking over the music and other radio-related reasons why it's not the same as getting a full track. "
I used to tape of the radio too, and ended up knowing songs as ending with 'And that was Vanilla Ice on 2KBY7 with the HOT Ice, Ice Baby... Keep rockin' dude... yeaaah'.*
It's not the same as a pure track... plus, as it says... crap quality.
* No, I didn't actually have any Vanilla Ice tracks on tape... no... really.
Keys to the kingdom for $9.95?!? (Score:5, Interesting)
$9.95 a month to Real Rhapsody will get you access to Real's entire library of 500,000ish songs in Real's streaming format, and $9.95 a month to the new Napster will get you access to Napster's library of 500,000ish songs in Windows Media format. In both cases, they've yet to establish a limit as to how many streams you can get per month.
Clearly, there's a rather gaping hole if you're able to save either of those sets of streams into any non-DRMed format.
De-mucking songs? (Score:3, Interesting)
However, couldn't software recognize the same song being played repeatedly by a station... and then identify the actual layers within the overlaps by what's found in all instances. In the end, it could take 8 hours of music in, and give back the 25 or so songs the station played more than once nice and clean.
Ohh... would the RIAA hate that. No distribution, just the recording of a legal broadcast.
Winamp - ml_www (Score:5, Interesting)
All you need is a Winamp running with the plug-in, and someone--probably someone you trust--drops in your IP in a browser and one of these two windows pops up [flet.ch], depending on which template you're using. You can download the newest versions here [chrisdsmith.com].
There's a sourceforge project [sourceforge.net] going on for the plug-in, but they haven't really brought that site up to speed yet. Most of the progress is in this Winamp Forums thread [winamp.com], with some occasional updates on Winamp Unlimited [inthegray.com].
So what's the difference (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't really see much of a difference here. It's not the downloading that the *AA have been getting people for it's the sharing. If you leached only the *AA would let you do it to your hearts content.
If someone is legally broadcasting that's basically the same as someone legally sharing a file unlike illegally broadcasting content which is the same as someone sharing a file they don't have distribution rights to. Legally it's the same to put out a stream you don't have rights to or put share out a file you don't have rights to.
Everybody gets wrapped up in the "download" portion and unfortunately get screwed because they've only paid attention to download instead of upload. Maybe if the fined P2P users had been worrying about uploading instead of downloading they wouldn't be getting fined.
Sony Betamax and Grokster (Score:2, Interesting)
1. Under the Sony Betamax case, time shifting is fair use. Under the Rio case, space shifting is fair use. So long as those cases hold up - the only difference between time shifting your TV with a VCR, and stream ripping is the quality. Basically, there may be no copyright violation here.
2. Even if there is a copyright violation (I don't think there will be), the Grokster case said that where a software provider doesn't know about infringing uses, they are not contributing to copyright violations. Stream rippers, like Grokster, are out of the loop. There's no central database here. Don't forget, that even if RIAA is successful (which I don't think they will be here), who would they sue? Many streamrippers are open source, and distributed development projects. Lots of stones to turn over.
What will RIAA do? Shut down the stations. I'd be surprised if Roxio's Napster 2 will be allowed to continue to use their 9.95 all you can eat streaming service for much longer.
Re:Expect "internet radio" to disappear (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Just make sure... (Score:3, Interesting)
When congress was trying to get web radio to pay royalties, my favorite station was acting funny. So i setup a box to rip the entire library. took a week, but I got 6 gigs of music, none identical.
Now when i hit random play my radio station comes back on the air.
just for the RIAA, I have been buying the songs slowly through second stores. You won't ever see my money.
Re:My parents used to do this (Score:5, Interesting)
"CD's? Bah... Who needs 'em! They cost twice as much as the cassettes and LP's, and you've got to be some kind of music nut if you think you can actually hear that much of a difference. Besides that, you're just going to end up making a tape of it anyway so you can play it in your car."
Ah... Them memories... <sigh>
Re:Expect "internet radio" to disappear (Score:2, Interesting)
Heh.. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm the president of a huge club on campus, and I know many, many people. NO ONE has CDs. No one.
We do, however, have two OC-3s and a T-3...
Re:Good idea but... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:cant see why i'd want this (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, there are p2p applications that do prevent tracing. There's MUTE [sourceforge.net], which seems to have promise, although it's not particularly well documented. There's also GNUnet [gnu.org] , which seems to be really intelligently designed, but I have no idea how well it works in practice, I don't think it's ready for mainstream use yet. And of course, freenet [sourceforge.net] with FROST [sourceforge.net] , but it's as slow and unreliable as the rest of freenet.
Ultimately, I think we can all agree that anonymous internet, especially filesharing, is coming and is going to render the RIAA's efforts useless.
As far as stream ripping, however, I think the idea was just that you could leech mp3s all day long and make a collection of whatever the stream is playing, not as an anonymous way of getting specific mp3s you want.
Re:Just make sure... (Score:3, Interesting)
radiolover for the mac allows you to shift the cutoff point by whatever amount to rectify this situation. I'm sure there are comparable solutions on other platforms.
Re:My parents used to do this (Score:3, Interesting)
You just have to love the RIAA's arguments. Remember the anti piracy bit they had on the beginnning of video movies. In Australia it went like this:
"Have you ever owned or rented a movie that wasn't quite right... poor sound and picture quality... " (I can't remember the rest).
They argued against copying back then because the quality was reduced and would "harm" their reputation as the viewers enjoyment was reduced.
Nowdays, they argue against copying because they quality is the same as the original (in theory).
They can't argue thay you can't make copies because it reduces the quality and argue that you can't make copies because the copy is as good (in theory)
Re:Good idea but... (Score:1, Interesting)
Does anyone know of a ripper or modification I could use to circumvent this? I'm using a ripcast 3 ripper and have tried their newer version 4 as well.
And as to quality I've been quite happy with what I've gotten in the past & I have trouble finding other sources for the Raggae music that I like.
Re:Good idea but... (Score:1, Interesting)
Let me guess, you support the RIAA?
The reason I don't do this is because I have no clue what/when/where I'm going to find something I like and chances are my friends don't have them. If i just rip the stream, then I can find the songs I keep hearing on the radio and find out who they are since it seems like the radio never says who the bands actually are.
This means I can then in turn by the CD of that group (since I now know who it is) and rip a better quality song.
see what i'm getting at.
Re:Expect "internet radio" to disappear (Score:4, Interesting)
There are more than one way to skin a CAT. (Score:2, Interesting)
music channels, by Genre. 80's, 90's, Jazz etc...
I use a video capture to bring it into my machine.
I then use a recording package to rip the songs,the audio comes in on it's own channel, and
Total Recorder or Goldwave works fine, for doing this, then convert to whichever compression you want. I
want from the blocks I recorded, and process them,
myself. the quality is fine, for me. I find this a good enough alternative.
Streaming fees (Score:2, Interesting)
How much of those royalties do the artists see? (Score:3, Interesting)
Slightly OT: I have a friend who's an upcoming musician and he paid a company to get his stuff on iTunes. He's had 4-5 paid downloads already but hasn't seen a dime.
Re:My parents used to do this (Score:4, Interesting)
And yes, I have a cassette deck next to my computer, hooked up to my sound card's line out. My car is getting kinda older, so it doesn't have a CD player - never bothered to get one. I record MP3s from the computer onto the cassette deck, so I can use it in the car. I use Type II cassettes - I was too cheap to buy the Type IV 10-15 years ago, whenever it was that I last bought one. I've just reused them over the years, taping over old radio songs, and tossing them when they wear out.
Type I and Type II have a drastically different frequency response. Type IV is only slightly better than the Type II, in my opinion.
Hmmmm... maybe I should consider building a Line In for my car cassette deck, so I can hook my portable MP3 player directly into it.
Dave
Re:Heh.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Same here... I personally (well, between my own collection and my SO's) have over 500, though I haven't bought all that many in the last few years, due to the RIAA's antics. All of my close friends have at least 100 or so; I have one FOAF, who does semi-professional remixing (like for local DJs), with literally 10k+ CDs - His collection occupies a full room, with a few thousand of his "favorites" in floor-to-ceiling racks, and the rest in gigantic (but alphabetically sorted) piles in the closet. Sadly, with all that to pick from, he doesn't have much I like... I enjoy most of the Techno family of genres, but not House (go figure), which he mostly deals with.
Perhaps this has some sort of regional influence (I live in New England, myself)? Or just a college-kid thing (why spend what little money you have on CDs when you can download them)? I dunno. I personally had a pretty nice collection even in college, although I didn't really get into CDs until midway through HS.
Re:Using a new legit tech for piracy only hurts it (Score:3, Interesting)
They aren't; they are going after some users of some P2P systems. P2P is a very wide area- with lots of protocols- most of the internet is P2P- the IP protocol itself is P2P. USENET especially is P2P.
Because its used mostly for piracy.
No; well maybe. But that's not necessarily true for all P2P or for all time. For example Skype [skype.com] is P2P, but there's presumably little or no piracy going on there.
Here is why I buy CD's (Score:5, Interesting)
l: It's not illegal.
2: A hard drive crash doesnt erase my collection. Burned cd's, backups, what have you get scratched, and aren't reliable. My factory made cd's will last much longer.
3: I can legally rip them at a high-bitrate in whatever the common format is.
4: A lot of my collection is indie / small label punk, these bands probably make less than I do, stealing their cds instead of buying really does affect them.
5: The main reason I buy cds is that when I rip them, there are no pops, none of my tracks are cut short, there are no duplicates, and the tags are 100% correct. I can put them in a database, and magically all the songs by the same artist end up together. When you buy cds, you get much better quality.
If I do use an MP3 service, it is just to see if a cd I'm thinking about buying is any good. I generally use Limewire, and store what I download in a seperate folder away from my collection, so I can easily delete it.
The RIAA does some stupid things, but I still think it is worth the money to actually buy the CD, and I view boycotts as one of the most in-effective tools to combat the RIAA. I think a well-written letter will do so much more than 1% of the population boycotting cds.
Did anybody consider (Score:3, Interesting)
A smart app could figure not only when the songs change, but OCR the picture to try and parse the artist, album and track info.
Re:My parents used to do this (Score:3, Interesting)
They should be afraid because their business model has not changed over the past decades. I want more content for my $.
I recently purchased a CD for $12 that came with a live concert on DVD. I think this is a great idea. I doubt that the larger labels would do this because they could sell the two items seperately and make more $.
Are you listening RIAA? I am happy to spend my money but want more content.
Re:Good idea but... (Score:2, Interesting)
Wouldn't that mean that all of the software, even back to the BIOS would be illegal? Seems like a large daisy-chain to me...
The BIOS allows the installation and operation of hardware, the hardware allows the installation and operation of an operating system, the operating system allows the installation and operation of the offending software.
Heck, the hardware manufacturers allow the installation of the BIOS. What's next, suing computer retailers for aiding piracy?
Re:Tired old formula (Score:1, Interesting)
I also highly doubt that 20 cents a song will ever happen. Or at least not as long as you need a bank to process the cash transfer.
Re:Here is why I buy CD's (Score:2, Interesting)
I was in WalMart here in rural Virginia the other day and saw a chick wearing an anti-RIAA shirt.
I think you underestimate the number of people the RIAA has pissed off.
Huh? (Score:4, Interesting)
For DI.FM's MP# streams, it would be ID3.
Home recording laws an exception to copyright (Score:4, Interesting)
Now, as people on
Re:Here is why I buy CD's (Score:1, Interesting)
That format has been and will continue to be MP3 until such time that storage makes compression irrelevant (another couple years) for everything but the cheapest portables. I've been using LAME VBR mp3's since 1997 and since they pass a double blind sound test with my good equipment on 90+% of my collection I see no reason to switch to anything else. I've tested MP3Pro, AAC, ATRAC high quality, and Vorbis and none of them have any overall advantage over MP3 (they all have some weakness, and to my ears they are all roughly the same but for different pieces of the content), then again I think the studio setup makes more difference in quality for most recordings.
Re:Here is why I buy CD's (Score:4, Interesting)
Here is why we download music:
1. Contrary to popular belief, downloading music (pirated or not) is NOT illegal. Since all you have to rely on is the NAME of the file you are downloading, you can claim negligence. Hey, how are we supposed to know if the song is pirated or not? What if we live in a cave? Brittney Spears, who?
2. Backing up mp3s (ogg, whatever) is cheaper than backing up CDs. (And you're going to backup your CDs anyway unless the RIAA intends to reimburse you for your scratched CDs.)
3. If we like the music, we'll "legally" rip the song at a high-bitrate in whatever format we like from another source (ie. library CDs, friends, used CD stores, etc.).
4. A lot of indie bands release their music for free online, [audiolunchbox.com] because they dont have enough $$ to distribute CDs. Sometimes they'll print their music on real CDs (not mp3 burns), but only if the demand comes. Hence, a better business model than printing 400,000 Cds, driving around to every CD store and FM radio station and risking a load of $$ if noone is interested in your music. Sometimes the artist is from another country and not on the radio, so no luck in finding the CD here. You can try to buy CDs for your favorite indie, but if it exists it will probably only be an mp3 cd. Sometimes if you ask the artist you can find out if a REAL CD will be released, but only if the demand is there.
5. the main reason for downloading is not to to fulfill your deepest orgasmic audiophile desires, but to test the water. We know CD quality is better, but why pay for something you've never heard, or for an album which has only one song you like? Or sometimes you can find out what the music sounds like in different countries, like say the DJ/Techno/Rave scene in UK (as opposed to the crap they call DJ here in the US).
Re:Here is why I buy CD's (Score:1, Interesting)
And here is where the RIAA will prosecute criminal procedings aggainst you. In a criminal court, your other 'noble' and 'respectful' actions are less relevant than a civil court case. In fact your decision to move what you download to a separate folder for easy deletion will be interpreted as an attempt to 'get away' with breaking the law.
It it interesting to note that the RIAA lobbies for copyright breaches to be held under criminal law, where the burden of proof is higher (than civil court), but so are the jailtimes and fines.
Given time, the RIAA will change the laws to make ripping explicitly illegal and will propose jail times, and/or X dollars per second ripping fines.
Re:Dear RIAA (Score:2, Interesting)
They use figures to describe how much piracy hurts their profits.. I wonder if that includes their investment AGAINST piracy? Should seem fitting for the RIAA that it does.. because I'd imagine it's into the billions by now.
What about a real estimation of the damage piracy inflicts? I'm wagering in dollars, it's far less than the amount spent to stop it.
Hmm?
Re:Good idea but... (Score:2, Interesting)
They're out there, you just gotta find them.
Re:How much of those royalties do the artists see? (Score:3, Interesting)
I used to do this (Score:2, Interesting)
Maybe RIAA could make part of their problem go away if record labels made lower quality downloads of tunes available for free. Good enough for blasting out the dorm room window, but bad enough so that if you can afford the real thing you'll want to pay for it. Artists could build markets, not alienate listeners, and still make money from people who can afford to pay for full-bandwidth versions of the music. They obviously aren't making any money from people who can't pay anyway.
Re:Here is why I buy CD's (Score:4, Interesting)
Most songs just aren't worth $1 per song, especially for a lossy, low-bitrate, DRM-encrusted file. And that's before the major labels try to hike the price up [arstechnica.com].
Every previous change in standard formats has been an increase in audio quality and/or consistency.
- Examples:
- Vinyl was prone to scratches; 8-tracks weren't.
- Cassettes were an evolution in tape technology (and, iirc, CrO2 was higher quality too).
- CDs brought the consistency and durability of optical digital media to music.
MP3 just doesn't add anything. It's a lossy encoding of the CD audio, it's easily destroyed by virii, worms, and particularly nasty windows crashes (other OSes are unfortunately statistically insignificant in the end user market). AAC doesn't either. It's got all those risks, plus DRM out of the box. I haven't heard of anything else of comparable or better quality being used for music sales.it's actually unlikely to (Score:3, Interesting)
audio ripping made simple, part 1 (Score:3, Interesting)
The fun part is that it also pretends to be -- well, it is -- a USB mass storage device. So now you just mount it and read back the raw PCM files.
Alternatively, if you already have the necessary software for playing audio from a stream anyway, why can't you just hack the source code a little so that it outputs data to a regular file as well as or instead of the DSP device?