Clones Are Overwhelming TiVo 402
jfruhlinger writes "The first line from this CRN/Associated Press story says it all: 'Debra Baker tells people she has TiVo. But she really doesn't.' As cable companies offer their own DVR boxes to customers for no upfront cost and a lower monthly fee than the original, people are using TiVo as a verb but are frequently not using using the product or service itself in real life. The article notes that the cable company's DVRs don't have some of the archtypical TiVo features, such as the ability to guess what you'd like recorded based on your viewing habits."
they also lack the ability to (Score:5, Informative)
as it is now, they record all showings.
Re:Privacy concerns (Score:5, Informative)
Me... I kinda like the fact that it reports what I watch. I've always wanted to actually count in the ratings...
Re:Problem Seems to be Marketing (Score:5, Informative)
There's really a "Tale of two TiVos" going on...
The integrated TiVo and DirecTV combo boxes, known officially as a "DirecTV DVR with TiVo" and commonly called a "DirecTiVo", have fallen in price dramatically recently. The units that were first sold for $299 are available for just $99 thanks to major subsidies from DirecTV. The service fee is only $4.99 per month and covers all TiVo units on the same household account.
Meanwhile, the prices of the Series 2 stand-alone TiVo units have not fallen, and in fact their service costs went up to $12.95 per month with no discounts at all for having more than one. Clearly, being able to integrate with service providers is key for TiVo's survival...
Nothing in TiVo's DirecTV contract prevents them from working with cable companies, only other DBS companies like Dish Network and Voom... clearly TiVo would like to have a dual-tuner-integrated box for digital cable, but the hardware makers aren't giving up the specs for that...
Well there is 1 thing Tivo does have... (Score:5, Informative)
You are an idiot. (Score:2, Informative)
TIVO didn't work for me (Score:2, Informative)
When I bot it I thought I could program it like a VCR. Turns out you can, if you pay them.
The idea is great, no more tapes, but TIVO's
version isn't it.
mike
Re:Privacy concerns (Score:1, Informative)
whirrled peas.
The Scientific Atlanta interface sure isn't TiVo (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Closed captioned for the standards impared (Score:2, Informative)
While that's true for broadcast it's not uniformly true for CATV - though HRC and IRC are now mostly losing the battle - check out http://www.jneuhaus.com/fccindex/cablech.html [jneuhaus.com] for a list of freqs
Re:How is this different then say . . (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Closed captioned for the standards impared (Score:3, Informative)
- Faster response to changes. If there's a last-minute change by the TV networks due to something like a presidential speech, the signal providers are usually good about updating their guide data as soon as they know about it. However, if you don't have a "daily call" between the change and the event, you're going to record the wrong programs because you don't get word of the change.
- Another data source. It'd be great if TiVo could just use the data that's being pushed out by the system operator instead of having to license it from Tribune. There would be coverage for company-specific Pay Per View channels that Tribune doesn't cover, and channel lineup changes would be detected and adjusted for as they happened. (The cost of the data and piping it over a modem are the main reasons they have to charge so much for a subscription.)
- No missed changes. TiVo's pretty reliable at getting digital cable boxes to change channels by IR blast, but they're not perfect. However, when it's all on the same board there's never an accident that way.
- System timekeeping. Ever notice that your digital cable box is a very accurate clock that you don't have to set? There's already a time signal on the wire, and TiVo could benefit from that instead of having to use NTP over a modem connect. Also, this time broadcast would account for any relay delays inherent in the network, if any.
Re:they also lack the ability to (Score:5, Informative)
The other thing I like about the TW DVR is the ability to record two shows at once. You can even record two shows at the same time while watching a third recorded show. I haven't heard if the for-real Tivo's can do that.
Re:Privacy concerns (Score:4, Informative)
Re:TIVO didn't work for me (Score:4, Informative)
Sorry, wrong. Tivo can be operated like a VCR without paying the monthly. (The series 1 units can, anyways.)
And I'm sorry but it sounds to me like you're a bit of an idiot to buy something with a basic understanding of how it works.
Re:they also lack the ability to (Score:5, Informative)
The Directv ones definitely can... I don't believe that any of the standalone ones have two tuners though.
Re:Privacy concerns (Score:5, Informative)
Comcast is more likely to use their DVR to spy on their subscribers to make sure people aren't "stealing" extra channels that they aren't signed up for. To my knowledge, Comcast is not offering viewer information to advertisers, although it would be an easy way for them to increase revenue or use it in negotiations when Viacom or Disney start demanding fee increases for channels that Joe Public doesn't care to watch yet is forced into the programming bundle.
Either way, Comcast's DVR does not offer the functionality that TiVo does. It is a shame that Comcast won't roll out actual set-top boxes with TiVo built in considering Comcast is a shareholder in TiVo. The same goes for Cox and Time Warner Cable. Yet none of them are deploying TiVo boxes. I think most of them believe that if they hold stock in TiVo, TiVo won't turn around and sue them over IP violations like TiVo did with Dish Network (Echostar) over the DishPlayer PVR.
However, Joe Public will have a remedy come July 2004 when FCC rules take effect that allows us all to buy our own digital set-top boxes instead of being at the mercy to rent whatever cable box is best to the cable company financials. That means we might actually see TiVo-branded digital cable set top boxes for sale at Best Buy.
The only area of concern I have for this digital jump is the lack of support for recording digital audio. I had an indepth conversation with a TiVo tech last week and he basically said the reason why existing TiVos do not offer SPDIF ports is that TiVo is afraid of being sued over DMCA violations because it would mean that the TiVo is making an exact copy of a digital audio signal from a program and archived on the customer's DVR. Perhaps they have their hands full fighting behind-the-scenes the "broadcast flag" requirements the FCC is trying to hoist on the whole industry while fighting the IP lawsuit against Echostar...
Re:Closed captioned for the standards impared (Score:5, Informative)
July 2004 is when FCC rules go into effect that you and I can go to our local Best Buy and buy a digital cable set top box. Call up Comcast Customer Service. They will confirm it. I know I did after they installed a crummy General Instrument digital set top box that had a hole in the place of an S-Video port, had a covered up SPDIF port, and didn't offer a serial port for a separate device (like my TiVo) to change the channels. If you are upgrading to digital cable before the July 2004 timeframe and you are with Comcast, specifically request that they install the Motorola set-top box. That has all of those ports. Its too bad it doesn't have component outputs though...
Re:they also lack the ability to (Score:3, Informative)
1. Lag -- changing channels or bringing up the guide takes way too long.
2. Buggy software -- it will crash on rare occasions, or get screwy and need to be rebooted. Every once in a while when I'm watching something recorded, it cuts away to live TV.
3. There's no way to quickly skip ahead say, an hour. You have to just fast forward for awhile, and it's not fast enough. Also, a 30 second skip ahead would be nice, but I wouldn't expect it from a cable company.
4. When you turn on the box, it may dump you live into something that's currently being recorded. Sucks for recording sports!
Those are a few off the top of my head, but there are others. Of course, I've never used a TiVo so I have no idea how it compares.
Also, for HD aficionados, TimeWarner doesn't have an HD DVR yet. Last I heard, it was supposed to come out in May.
Re:Better than TiVi (Score:2, Informative)
Re:they also lack the ability to (Score:2, Informative)
Re:You'd think it would go the other way. (Score:2, Informative)
You want TiVo Basic (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It's called propriety eponyms (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Why "TiVo" is (nearly) the accepted generic ter (Score:3, Informative)
"A word formed from the initial letters of a name, such as WAC or Women's Army Corps".
DVD - Digital Versiatile (or video) Disk
VCR - Video Cassette Recorder
ATM - Automatic Teller Machine
SUV - No idea don't have them in this country
They are not abbreviations.
Obligatory Mythtv reference (Score:5, Informative)
It is licensed under the GPL.
http://www.mythtv.org/
The interface makes Tivo look like a weak sister in most areas, and has FAR more capabilities.
On well tested hardware and using well tested distributions, it can be set up in less than an hour, including Dling the software and deps/updates. YMMV, severely on poor hardware.
(via KT333/400) There are numerous well written how-tos, and one of the better mailing lists you will ever see.
Sound setup under Linux is typically the headache, as you can imagine.
There is a Knoppix based CD version, knoppmyth, but R4 is bit dated. It CAN be installed and VERY carefully upgraded, as mythtv is available for Debian.
One good, well suported setup---NF2 MB, Athlon XP, OSS audio, GF4 MX400, and FC1. (There are folks using it all dists tho)
I personally found Mandrake Cooker to be just as easy, easier in fact as it is "current" to the point of bleeding continuously, as my "backend" is my "workstation", and that's my comfortable distro of choice. Again, YMMV.
My new frontend is an Xbox, and it works beautifully, excellent TV out, DVD remote works perfectly, fully mapped to run Mythtv properly.
It runs Debian, xbox-mythtv, a tweaked version of Xebian.
Re:Mod This Up (Score:3, Informative)
These analog channels need to be MPEG encoded before being saved onto disk and before you can enjoy your DVR functionality. Not only do cable DVR's need an MPEG encoder, but they also need full blown tuner which is expensive. So I wouldn't say that cable has any unfair advantage at all.
Murdock wants TiVo (Score:4, Informative)
He could also dictate the direction of TiVo, optimizing them towards DirecTV support even more so than currently. HDTV makes no sense outside of Satellite, so I would expect Murdoct to have the first availible direct-digital integrated HDTV DVR.
Then suppose they add a digital out connector to a computer for archiving, which would work with ATI Video boards? Cable companies would become the low-end prole option overnight.
Re:they also lack the ability to (Score:2, Informative)
6. 15 minute shows are not handled properly. On the guide, Aqua Teen Hunger Force takes up a whole 30 minute slot, but if I set it to record it'll only record the first 15 minutes. I had to create a manual recording to get Sealab. (BTW, who wants to worship Alvis with me?)
7. One time it erased all my stuff (except for the one thing that I had marked "keep until manually erased"). So now I feel compelled to set everything I care about to "Keep Until Manually Erased." My nachos supreme loses heat while I do this.
And yeah, channel changing is wicked slow.
Re:TiVo clones?? (Score:2, Informative)
For those that might not know, they were required to release the source by GPL. TiVo is based on Linux (my Series 1 runs on the 2.1.24 kernel.) The source code is primarily just the UI you see on the screen, though. A good portion of the real magic is in a custom ASIC.
However, I would maintain that no one else has been able to "easily copy" TiVo. The bugginess and lack of a friendly UI in competitors is ample evidence of this. TiVo was created by a talented group of folks who invested a lot of effort and did their homework. However, never underestimate a cheaper price coupled with barely adequate functionality that slowly improves but never quite gets there. Heck, that's Microsoft's entire business model!
Re:they also lack the ability to (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Are you really that dumb? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:It's called propriety eponyms (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Program Guide (Score:5, Informative)
It's also worth mentioning that the guide info provided by TiVo is quite a bit more detailed than what you're likely to get for free. I have an upgraded TiVo (a Philips HDR112 with 200 GB of disk (it shipped with 14), 32 MB of RAM (it shipped with 16), and a TurboNet), and I've recently started fooling around with MythTV. While it's much easier to rip video from a MythTV system (export the video files with Samba), I've noticed that the program info it provides isn't nearly as comprehensive as what TiVo provides. TiVo provides a more thorough description of most programs. It also lists the major actors in a show, which is how you can tell it to record everything with your favorite actors (whoever those are) whenever it comes up. A wishlist entry for William Shatner, for instance, would dig up stuff like his Twilight Zone episode(s) and Incubus. (It'd also pull in Rescue 911 and T.J. Hooker...whether that's a Good Thing is an exercise for the reader.)
The TiVo interface is also a fair bit easier to get around. In fairness to MythTV, it's not been around nearly as long, yet it's reasonably useful. It'll get more refined as time moves along.
Re:Obligatory Mythtv reference (Score:4, Informative)
I'm not a Tivo owner, so I can't speak about how they compare, but I must say that MythTV's interface sucks.
The interface is clunky and inelegant. It's extremely slow to navigate through. Conflict management is extremely complicated. You have to escape out several levels just to get back to the main menu so you can go back to a different branch of sub-menus (imagine if your VCR's menu had sub-menus, with sub-sub-menus, etc.)
And the final straw that got me to uninstall MythTV? It doesn't play anything but recorded TV programs on it's own. You need MPlayer to play you videos/audio, in which case you have an entirely different interface, different key bindings, different reactions to events, etc.
Personally, I just have a shell-script doing the TV-recording, and I playback using a basic filemanager that lists my videos (or playlists) and launches them with mplayer. I can play recorded TV programs, DVDs, Internet Streaming Video/Audio, etc. I never looked back after dropping MythTV.