Japanese Digital TV Viewers Complain About DRM Restrictions 371
Riktov writes "The Japan Times reports that that viewers of digital broadcast TV, which started this past April, are complaining to national broadcaster NHK about restrictions on recording. Many of the complaints seem to arise from viewers who are confused as to why they can't copy rather than angry that they can't copy, but in the end all viewers are learning the hard way about content restrictions."
B-CAS card? (Score:4, Interesting)
I guess this begs the question as to why do you need a card to watch TV when the purpose is to not allow duplication?
Sure.. I guess it could have it's positive uses... Like if you ground your kids from the TV, you just take away their access card and they can't sneak in a program or 2 when returning home from school. It could also lock out programs that children cant watch, depending on the V-chip ratings. But this is in Japan, where they don't have the same censorship the US now has. The article really doesn't get into it...
Leading the way (Score:5, Interesting)
I think right now an easier solution would be to just get a hdtv card in a htpc and use that to record shows.
Best part of the story: (Score:5, Interesting)
The duplication controls have been adopted to protect broadcast copyrights, an NHK official said, adding, "Easy violation of copyright would make movie and music copyright holders reluctant to provide their works and prompt actors and singers to refuse to appear on TV."
Really? You mean they're not going to act or sing anymore? How are they going to get paid?
This guy is a total fuddite.
By the time they know it, its already too late (Score:4, Interesting)
What do we want? (Score:5, Interesting)
People like Apple slipping in the unreasonableness slowly so you gradually ajust to it (compare the 'no DRM at all, don't buy it and let the market kill it' position pre-iTunes to the current 'reasonable DRM is ok, it's not their fault' now*) are FAR more dangerous that the flat footed attempts of the WMA crowd.
The more violently the content producers introduce this stuff the better the chance of the populace waking up for the tenth of a second required to scare the media companies really badly and getting rid of DRM for at least a good long while more.
So this kind of thing is a good thing, not a bad thing. In the long run it'll mean less arbitrary restrictions and presumption of guilt for everyone.
*This is not a flame, this is the truth. I can't think of one slashdot post pre-iTunes (that was modded up anyway) that said that DRM would suffer anything but a crippling death because people would refuse to buy restricted products, then they would HAVE to come back with unencumbered goods. Now we see people falling over themselves to offer a misguided company congratulations because they fuck you over SLIGHTLY LESS THAN EVERYONE ELSE. Wonderful.
We'll have the same problem with HDCP flag in HDTV (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do... (Score:5, Interesting)
we don't have any explaining to do. we've got TV modding to do! enter a new mod-chip industry. i'm thinking you stick a little doo-dad in between the signal decoder and the output to the screen.
if i'm thinkin' it, then chances are there's an enterprising korean kid somewhere who can actually do it with little more than some chop sticks and a little chicken wire.
This could come here, nothing stops it. (Score:5, Interesting)
See, the Betamax ruling gave us the right to time-shift programming that comes down from TV stations, but that time-shifting implies that we're not going to keep our copies forever. It's impossible to keep an analog VCR tape forever because it will age and degrade over time, and analog copies are always lossy as well. However, a digital copy that you can recopy to avoid media-aging issues can in fact be kept forever.
There's no such thing at this moment as a law that enumerates all of our "fair use" rights when it comes to media that we have legally obtained. "Fair use" is just the result of things that Hollywood wishes we couldn't do but they can't take us to court over them because they're not (yet) against the law.
Right now, there's really nothing at all that prevents American broadcasters for using encryption on their HDTV broadcasts, and leaving only a low-quality MPEG stream available for those who don't want to play along with their scheme. Some stations in Utah are in the process of proving that with the current cable-over-DTV scheme, where they use their DTV channel to relay only an SD copy of their analog content, and then instead of ever going HD they use the remaining bandwidth to relay pay-to-watch cable channels.
key cracking effort (Score:3, Interesting)
A couple months ago, I came across a program with very little documentation that was a distributed key cracker/finder for some sort of DTV encryption key. It was being publicized by an anime group- with encrypted DTV, the fansub groups can't get high quality 'raw' versions to subtitle and re-encode.
If anyone has details or can find it, please reply...
Interesting (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do... (Score:5, Interesting)
Forward to FCC and Sony (Score:5, Interesting)
I hope this gets the electronics manufactures to lobby the FCC to lighten up - it will affect their bottom line if people do not want to upgrade their TVs and VCRs/DVRs because of consumer unfriendly restrictions.
Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do... (Score:1, Interesting)
I personally don't understand why so many people 'make a fuss' about DRM, when the companies are adding it in to protect their property that is being pirated!
The sad reality is that people steal. So people do what they can to protect their property from theft. We can get philosophical about how DRM infringes upon my fair use rights, but if people did NOT steal- then we wouldn't have this problem. The corporations who are spending tons of money to implement DRM would rather not have to spend that money. But Joe Self-Righteous who feels that he can make a copy of anything digital that crosses his path, forces DRM to become a reality we all deal with.
I am a big supporter of paying money for the intellectual property I use. I buy software, I buy music, I buy games. I know that if we all stop purchasing these products, they will no longer be produced. If I want games to come out next year, I need to buy them this year. If I want free broadcast television, I need to allow the networks to charge for advertising. Advertisers won't spend money, if they don't know that their message won't get across.
Explaining This... (Score:5, Interesting)
I couldn't pay for it if I tried! I love the show, so you're saying I shouldn't download it? I should just forget the show even existed? Not my fault people edited out the commercials.
Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Best part of the story: (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the most insightful comment I've seen. This is all about disintermediation, it is not about whether or not actors, singers, writers, or whatever will be paid.
If we want people to make stuff, we're going to have to figure out a way to pay them. All this DRM garbage is about making sure the way we pay them still has money going through the same hands it always did.
Personally, I'd rather a completely collapsed content industry than this dangerous, freedom-sucking garbage. The content industry would rebuild itself around a model that actually worked for everybody instead of a model that largely padded the pockets and insured the profits of the current set of middlemen.
Re:it's not long.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Consider one group that's going to have problems with this setup-the anime community. Check the links Taco put on the front page and you'll see it's a well organized international community of thousands of hardcore enthusiasts. Some of them put a lot of effort into getting high quality copies of Japanese TV shows. As soon as these DRM schemes start getting in the way of fansubbing Naruto within 24 hours of its Japanese airing, you're going to see a lot of smart, technical people with too much free time dedicated to breaking the restrictions.
I predict that people like the anime fansubbers can make a laughingstock of the DRM in a matter of days. So imagine what professional pirates will do. Even without beowulf clusters. There's groups making millions off the bootleg videos that have become ubiquitous in Asia. They have professional-quality printing equipment and the ability to make packaging the average consumer can't tell apart from the real thing. The perception that DRM prevents copying will just make it easier to convince people that bootlegs are real, and it won't slow down the pirates at all.
So whether you're getting your Japanese TV shows from groups that encourage buying DVD's [animesuki.com] and respect foreign licenses or greedy pirates [slashdot.org] flooding the retail market with bootlegs and providing the argument in favor of these systems, the DRM won't be much of a problem.
It's only going to screw you over if you're an elderly Japanese couple that wants to watch your TV the same way you could with your fancy VCR (that still blinks 12:00).
Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do... (Score:1, Interesting)
Similar situation, I can re-encode my videos so I can watch them on my lowly 650MHz laptop when I am travelling. Oops, that's another copy. Can't allow it.
The most basic scenerio is that a friend taped last nights episode of 24 that I missed. Damn, I can't just borrow a copy anymore like I would with a VHS tape. And since FOX won't be showing that episode again until summer re-runs, I miss out.
Re:Explaining This... (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:key cracking effort (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Explaining This... (Score:3, Interesting)
- Nobody bought the broacast rights to the show in your area... meaning that the station/network that used to pay the producers for the right for you to see the show with their ads inserted stopped paying. You should be complaining to either that station to start paying again, or telling another station in your area to pick up the show instead.
- Somebody has the rights to the show, but are sitting on it... meaning that the station that was airing the show is likely still getting the exclusive rights to the show, but is simply not using them. Yeah, that's a selfish thing to do, but one that stations and networks often do to assure that nobody can run a program that happens to be similar to one they are showing against it. In effect, they're paying the producers to make sure you can't see their show.
If there is no price on how much it costs to see the show where you are, then that's interpreted as positive infinity... no matter how much money you have, it's not enough. Things without a price tag aren't always free...
Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do... (Score:5, Interesting)
This poses a bit of a problem for me. At the moment, I have made it my goal to record all six seasons of CHiPs (yes, I have a thing for cheesy police shows), and put them on DVDs for my personal viewing pleasure (as it is highly unlikely to come out on DVD). Part of that involves removing the commercials from the recorded episodes.
Using MythTV with a PVR-250, I can do that (the resulting stream is just MPEG-2, I can edit it in any MPEG-2 editor), and then throw it into a DVD authoring program, add a menu and maybe some special effects, and there I go. I can't do that with this new setup.
Plus, what's up with having to insert a card into your TV? Why the heck should I have to identify myself to a TV? (The article doesn't say what the identification is used for.)
-- Joe
Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do... (Score:2, Interesting)
Publishing the tools to do so may be under DMCA, though.
IT's not really like DirecTV... descrambling encrypted signals without permission falls into a different category than simply bypassing a trivial recording blocker... if you are descrambling DTV, you had no rights to view the material in the first place.
Re:B-CAS card? (Score:3, Interesting)
(especially if combined with measures like those I consider here [slashdot.org]...)
Miss sold a HDD/DVD recorder with CPRM (DRM!) (Score:3, Interesting)
I purchased Panasonic DMRE85HEBS (me things they got the 2nd and 3rd letter in wrong order!)
product [panasonic.co.uk]
They did not mention in any technical description that it had CPRM (DRM for hard discs and DVD-RAM). Bad customer support or what? I've not be encombered so far.
CPRM the register article [theregister.co.uk]
Here is some info from the manual.
From the Glossary
CPRM technology is used to protect broardcasts that are allowed to be
recorded only once. Such broadcasts can be recorded only with CPRM
compatible recorders and discs.
From the information on use of the player
* You can record broadcasts that allow "One time only recording". You
can transfer (dub) a recorded title to a CPRM compatible DVD-RAM,
however the title is erased from the HDD.
The future is bleak - the future is CPRM and other DRM
Cheers, now3d
Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do... (Score:5, Interesting)
The ability to make a backup copy, maybe? The ability to edit it. The ability to run it through some filters. The ability to re-encode it to another format. The ability to send it to my other Tivo, maybe? They don't keep track of how many copies you currently have, they can only keep track of how many generations of copies it can go through. I could be doing everything perfectly legally, by deleting old copies, but this DRM would stop my perfectly legal activities.
Just because they own it, what right does it give them to dictate exactly how I'm allowed to watch it? If I want to remove every violent scene from a movie, why shouldn't I be able to do so? If I want to edit out the intro and the credits, why shouldn't I be allowed?
I can't believe there are people like you that actually think companies should be able to literally micromanage our lives.
Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do... (Score:5, Interesting)
To me, it's timeshifting. It comes on at 4AM (CHiPs does come on at strange hours on TBS here, sometimes I get the Emergency Broadcast Test in the middle of the episode), so I'm going to have to record it anyway (I have to work during the day, I can't stay up until 6AM to watch TV). The only difference is that I'm not deleting the file after I have watched it - much like I might do with a real videotape.
Would it be any different if I just left the unmodified episodes on the PVR hard drive, as if it were a VHS tape (with commercials still there), and skip the commercials every time (FF/REW)? Or is the editing/archiving the episodes to TV that makes this non-legal?
As for the TV card... If it comes to the point where I have to insert a card into the TV (currently, with analog cable, I don't have to do this), or my existing recording equipment is disabled, I just might have to give up TV for good. Currently, it plays a very small role in my life, I'd rather fire up an editor and write some software, with the exception of the few shows I record.
The media needs to learn that not everybody wants things pushed into their brain - a lot of people want choice, and they want to exercise those choices.
-- Joe
Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do... (Score:4, Interesting)
No, that is factually incorrect. It is in-fact the same thing. You are simply time-shifting the TV-shows so you can watch them over and over again.
Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do... (Score:3, Interesting)
I hate to get drawn into a conversation like this, esp. with an AC, but with the rise of the Internet, non-corporeal goods (mp3s, e-texts, etc.) no longer have any monetary value. You might argue that companies like Apple *are* selling music online, but you have to understand that, since they have no resale value (they can't be resold), they have no intrinsic value in the first place. It's not that people are being suckered into buying something that's really free; it's more like consumers are convincing themselves that the mp3's they're purchasing have a dollar value attached to them. Even perishable goods that might not last for longer than an hour (say, ice cream on a hot day) still have a resale value, if you sell them at the right time. Even this is not possible for non-corporeal goods - no refunds, no exchanges.
Getting back to DRM restrictions on TV: satellite companies are broadcasting signals over the face of the entire earth. There's no way I can block out these signals; if I go outside, whoops, they're slamming into me. If these signals are being broadcast into my house anyway, without my permission, then why shouldn't I exploit them? "You can't," you say, "because they don't belong to you!" Well, the air I'm breathing doesn't belong to me either, but it's being shunted into my house without my permission either. Next thing you know, there'll be a new utility on the block: SaskAir (I'm from Saskatchewan).
And to slam home the point: I actually don't pay for either cable or satellite, because PeasantVision (TM) beams three channels into my house for absolutely nothing. Theoretically, there are restrictions on what I can and cannot do with these channels, but in practise I could have three VCRs recording all three stations 24x7. "But Digital TV has higher resolution!" you might say. "It's paid for by advertising, too!" These are good points, and I'll give you a cookie for them, but truly, what's the difference between watching Law and Order for free (a la rabbit ears), or Law and Order in Digitallifantastic Vision?
Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do... (Score:2, Interesting)
I guess there are those who feel that Joe Content-Creator has the right to dictate to others how others watch, view, listen, and use the work that was created.
I'm sorry, but neither Copyright Law nor common sense supports this radical viewpoint. Last I heard, Copyright allows for broad control over reproduction and distribution of a work, but (1) that control is NOT absolute, and (2) no one needs a "license to view" lawfully obtained copies.
There is much precedent and law here in the States (like the Sony Betamax case) that says I have the right to make limited copies for my own personal use. "Fair Use" does not mean "limited to one copy", or "limited to copies only under the terms dictated by the content owner". IANAL and I'm not sure what the legal situation in Japan, though.
Second, there seems to be this view where "you're not allowed to use the content unless someone grants a license". Copyright says nothing about "use licenses"-- its a myth that started with the software Industry and onerous EULAs. And only in software is there any precedent (Zeindeberg (sp) vs. Pro-CD) that validates "licensing".
I don't need a license to:
- Listen to a song off the radio.
- Watch a show broadcasted off of public airwaves.
- Listen to a CD I legally obtained.
- Watch a DVD that I legally obtained.
- Read a book that I legally obtained.
- Use something I learned from a textbook to a real-life problem.
Content creators like to think: "Either you take it with all of our restrictions, or you don't listen/view/use". But that's bogus because I don't need the content creator's permission to use what I legally obtained. I don't need some "sacred or holy right" to use the stuff I legally bought-- the content owners should instead be wondering to themselves why they have some "sacred or holy right to control something that they sold or broadcasted to me over the public airwaves."
Re:Confused? (Score:5, Interesting)
Yup. Maybe Riktov has missed some of the finer points of Japanese culture. The article itself doesn't even suggest that "most" customers are confused, ...drawn a flood of complaints from TV users... ...more than 15,000 inquiries and complaints...
The only references to confusion/lack of understanding are "Customers often ask me about 'duplication control' but I have difficulty in helping them understand it," said store manager Yuki Kanno. and "But the duplication control is difficult for elderly people to understand," a sales clerk said. - both from the industry side of the argument. Customers are pissed, and they aren't accepting the explanations given to them by sales people. Maybe that's because it was a bad idea?
They suggest it's due to popular TV dramas being copied and mass marketed around Asia. Imagine that - broadcasting media and then people having it for free! I'm not saying selling the copies is right, but if the media companies aren't competitive in that market, they should be addresing that rather than screwing their bread and butter customers. I wonder which particlar media companies are behind this? The article seemed to leave this snippet of information out...
Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do... (Score:3, Interesting)
-
I usually support the software and music industry regarding their copyrights but in this case it doesn't make sense. When I purchase a piece of software I'm bound by a licence agreement, a contract on my use of the software that I paid for. With broadcast TV, you have not agreed nor signed to such a contract, therefor, how can DRM be enforceable?
In general (in the US at least) I agree with you. However in this case they may have signed a contract. Every household is supposed to pay for a license for NHK (I believe that's the correct one) in Japan. If you get cable, you're supposed to have paid that license. It's LAW. So it very well might be that the license limits what you can do with NHK (and perhaps others, although that's probably getting iffy) broadcasts.So in Japan at least, such a contract may exist. If it doesn't, I'm sure the NHK license will be modified to make it so shortly.
Re:copy once (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do... (Score:3, Interesting)
(Knock, Knock, Knock) Sumimasen
(Silence we try to pretend we're not home, we know the NHK man's knock)
(Knock, Knock, Knock, a little louder) Sumimasen, NHK desu kedo (Excuse me this is the NHK man, unspoken I know your in there!!)
(Silence)
(Bang, Bang, Bang)
I tell the NHK man I don't watch their shows....
The man tells me not to lie he knows I do and please pay up as the law requires....
So anyway if I am paying/being taxed for their stupid shows why shouldn't I be able to make more than one copy for personal use?? If not give me back my NHK money.
Re:Explaining This... (Score:1, Interesting)
I did so feeling sure that Fox didn't have a problem with it, because of the following that I found on Fox's website in its "FAQ": [fox.com]
8. Can I get tapes of FOX Network Primetime Shows sent to me?
ANSWER:
The FOX Network does not provide nor sell videos of any of shows, specials or movies that air on the Network.
Our recommendation is to ask co-workers, friends, family and neighbors for anyone who may have taped off-the-air the show you are looking for.
And yes, I did buy the DVD set when it came out. But that was much later.