InfoWorld 2004 Salary Survey Results 320
tverbeek writes "InfoWorld has released the results of their Salary Survey for 2004 [pdf], and in the intro they declare that there's less bad news and more optimism, as IT budgets and salaries in particular are starting to creep back up. So now we get to witness the curious phenomenon of Lake Anti-Wobegone, as all the techies we hear from complain that their salaries are still below 'average'."
Cry me a river (Score:5, Insightful)
Then there were suddenly a lot of people with computer skills.
Surprise surprise, the salaries went down. It's all about supply and demand.
Meanwhile, those of us with a love of the subject have the actual deeper understanding of computers that allow us to command a decent salary.
Who is complaining? (Score:3, Insightful)
Page 9 (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Salaries (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:More power to you. (Score:5, Insightful)
I came into the field when I got tired of digging ditches and sweating my balls off for a living at $10/hr shortly after high school. Talk about being underpaid...I'll take rediculous deadlines and long (air conditioned) hours, and clueless managers in the IT field over the same conditions (sans air conditioning) working in a shitass labor job EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK. Working conditions can be shitty in any field. I don't expect to make millions in the IT field but it's better that digging a fucking hole for shizel.
Re:This is why my company is changing their scale. (Score:2, Insightful)
But let's not forget, they hire "only the best"! Surely the best will work under their conditions, right? Right? Right?
50% are never gonna be happy! (Score:1, Insightful)
Remember, people, average is only a line that everybody deviates from! Nobody is average.
Re:Cry me a river (Score:3, Insightful)
For everything (even health care) there are good times and bad times. We just happen to be in a bad time. i.e. Health care will see the bad times when population rates drop (either after some massive plague, or if more govt's impose laws on reproduction).
And there is nothing wrong with being a web monkey - as a part-part time job during college (and even on the occasion now) it has helped make me some good extra cash (about 10k a year)
Re:Who is complaining? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Cry me a river (Score:4, Insightful)
Taking a job because you think you can make a living from it is not a bad thing. Millions of people earn a living doing things they dont particularly care for, that a large part of the reason its called work and not playtime or doing what I enjoy time. If you dont like it you can change career. Development is a job, not a divine calling.
There were suddenly lots of people with computer skills available because the technology sector took a major dive, not because Jonny and Mary took Comp Sci 101. Obviously then it becomes an employers market and they are going to pay the minimum possible so lower salaries. Outsourcing also help drive salaries down by allowing empoyers to offer take it or leave it terms. Gotta expect that in a free market given the preceding conditions.
I know several guys who make good money and dont give a crap about coding, they just happen to be quite talented and adopt a professional attitude. I find dealing with them quite easy because they tend to focus on getting the job done properly rather than arguing over ultimately irrelevant minutae as many, shall I say some more 'loving' developers do. Its more about ability than love.
Things *have* been good... (Score:5, Insightful)
I did the normal IT stuff, but I also introduced new (free) tech, held training classes for staff, and generally took honest interest in my job (something I don't always see in the 19-year old wire contractors we sometimes hire).
This January I basically presented myself as a needed member of the team, explained my salary adjustment request (using an Infoworld-like survey) and got my boss to back it up to management (not hard, because we treat each other well). There's methods to increase your chances of getting a good pay raise.
Re:Or... you can go to Iraq and make $500-$1000/da (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Listing? (Score:3, Insightful)
Very rarely will an HR person come around and say "here's where our company stands when handing out salaries". The only time most do is when they've just been given a much larger payroll to work with and they have holes in key positions.
I know when I fill out these surveys, I don't list my company. I'd rather the survey stay semi-anonymous.
Re:50% are never gonna be happy! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Garrison Keiller wasn't a math major (Score:5, Insightful)
Garrison does not claim that most of the people to be above average. In Lake Wobegon, all of the children are above average. Oh, and if you didn't know, Lake Wobegon is fiction.
This is why artistic license is a useful concept.
Ugh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Those graphs should include cost of living and a calculator for getting "your area's" average salary.
Re:More power to you. (Score:5, Insightful)
Dead on! Myself, I'm a network engineer and a hog farmer. I can't testify first-hand to what conditions were like in the late 90s for programmers, because at that time I was cutting all the pine trees off our property for pulp wood (everyone around us was getting pine beetles, so I figured if I was gonna loose the trees I might as well make some money off it). I think I averaged about $8 an hour for my work, after you count expenses for my saw, my truck, my trailor, my tractor, etc.
I'm also a born and raised hog farmer. Hearing some one bitch that he'll only make $35,000 this year as a programmer just strikes me as whining. What babies! If you want to talk about a market that's hit rock bottom, it's farming. These days, when I take a #1 hog to sale, I'm lucky to get $70 for it. It costs me just under $100 to raise one! This of course isn't sustainable. The few hogs I raise now are for personal consumption. The farrowing barn is empty.
Sometimes I wonder just how big a whimp these people are. They bitch and moan about poor working conditions in a cubicle that is both air conditioned, and quiet, all while other people in the world are slaving in the hot Georgia sun all day, digging ditches, cutting trees, raising cattle, paving roads, roofing houses, etc. Give me a break.
Independent Contractors? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:More power to you. (Score:5, Insightful)
Just because the environment is different doesn't mean it is better or worse. Remember, the grass is always greener.
I remember a manager of mine once said, "While working at a big company that was building a new facility, we programmers looked out and saw a big ass crane and said to each other 'wow, how neat would it be to be out there operating that big toy' while the crane operators were saying 'wow, how nice would it be to sitting at one of those air conditioned desks all day.'"
RTFA; averages deceive (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder how people are saying that this survey shows wages for IT workers increasing. It doesn't - in fact, it shows exactly the opposite.
I can see how you might believe this if you read only this paragraph:
But go ahead and read the next two paragraphs:
So the message is this: if you're not upper management - that is, if you're not part of the system that sets the salaries - the people who are part of upper management will continue to screw you. It's not going to get better on its own.
The salary of middle management and IT staff went down. It's just that the salaries of upper management went up by enough to raise the average.
Re:Yeah, I was thinking the same thing... (Score:1, Insightful)
Uhm, what's the value of $Christian_Fundamentalists here?
There's quite a spread. Generally, I'd say you're high if you think fundamentalists are reserved. Haven't you ever heard of being "born again." This is not a subtle procedure, it's literally meant to be a second birth for crying out loud. How could you call that reserved?
Furthermore, fundamentalists sects are a common element of American history and literature. Your assertion that most people know them from the distorted lens of the media is a distortion in its own right. Fundamentalism had an obnoxious reputation before the camera obscura was harnessed to ambumin silver nitrate papers.
Fundamentalists are notorious in American literature for thier revival stage shows that are literally direct relations of the circus and freak show. Introspective, reserved?!
You obviously have some agenda partner, but your attempt at distorting the facts ends right here. You're under arrest motherfucker. Get in the car.
Re:Or... you can go to Iraq and make $500-$1000/da (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:More power to you. (Score:4, Insightful)
While I agree with you on your carpal tunnel, heart desease, and eye problems, how exactly does sitting in a chair all day hurt your back more than doing physical labor 7 days a week?
As some one who's done both and still does, I can honestly say that white collar work is not nearly as demanding as blue collar once you weigh in the pros and cons of both. Honestly, when was the last time you heard of anyone ever dying on the job while coding from the working conditions? When was the last time you or a co-worker was hospitalized from an injury suffered on the job?
Point is, every job has its ups and downs; you have to find one thatyou personally enjoy. But white collar jobs tend to have more ups and fewer downs than blue collar. You'll have a damn hard time convincing me otherwise.
Re:More power to you. (Score:4, Insightful)
It's all relative. My dad owns several small retail stores, and he wants me to help out more, since some day, he'll leave them to me. I have a full-time, fairly demanding job in IT (which is why I post on ./). Working at my dad's stores, I can appreciate my cushy IT job more.
The problem arises when you compare our positions to the positions of others. Let's take the boss for example. I've been on plenty of projects with ridiculous deadlines. I've literally worked 15-hour days and weekends in order for a project to hit a deadline. In hindsight, I'm not really sure why. But the biggest insult is when the boss leaves the office and says with a smile on his face, "don't work too hard!"
On another project (at a different company), we had a client that basically lied to us on when they needed an application finished by. We were already looking at a doomed project, and it got worse when suddenly we had 2 fewer months to finish it. Leave it to the almighty sales guy to start trying to blame the developers on this one. He even went so far as to try to volunteer people's personal time for the project, while he went on ski trips.
Those are the times I feel I'm being underpaid. :) So, there are definitely people who work harder than us IT folks, but there are also people who are in cushier positions than us. I think I saw someone post this on Slashdot a couple of years ago: "At the very best, your job will suck sometimes."
Re:More power to you. (Score:5, Insightful)
First, I make decent money. This I am not bitching about. I just did a check on the "How rich am I?" calculator (don't have the link handy) and according to its data, I make way more money than most people in the world. I realize how fortunate I am to have as much as I do.
Second, people are people and inherently valuable. They deserve to be treated as such. Is it worth it to be paid well if it drives you into an early grave? Perhaps it's better to work two less stressful jobs than one highly stressful job where you are expected to work 80+ hours per week. But isn't this all up to the individual to decide? We should all live our lives how we each personally see fit. I hear tell of a job in Alaska fishing for crabs or some such that pays over $200,000/yr but has one of the highest death rates of any job there is. On each trip out (supposedly) at least one member of the crew dies. You're on a boat for six months in the worst hell-on-earth conditions there are. But then you get a six month vacation and make a crapload of money. Anybody who wants that job can take it. I'll sit on my ass and develop thrombosis, thank you very much.
Third, about the plight of farmers: WAAA!!! Poor freaking farmers! I'm so sick of hearing about the poow widdle fawma. Fuck 'em. And before you get up in arms, my grandfather was a farmer all his life until he died in his late eighties two years ago. And guess what: he did well at it. All his freaking life. Do you want to know why? Because HE WAS GOOD AT IT. He knew how to raise hogs or steer or chickens or corn or tobacco or whatever and make money at it. He knew how to cover his ASS in case there might be A DROUGHT or FLOOD one year.
Why is it every time there's a freaking flood or drought there's a freaking lobbyist in Congress getting a bill passed to BAIL OUT THE POOR WIDDLE FARMERS??? Why? I know why. Because Agribusiness is big freaking business with a powerful political arm. So the poor little farmer isn't necessary any more. Big commercial farming is running the show. There are too many family farmers in America. WE overproduce food anyway. Those farmers should take a hint from people like you and learn a new freaking skill.
Next time there's an IT crisis ("Oh, no! We've outsourced all our IT infrastructure to China & India now we have a million IT workers out of work!") let's see how many freaking bills make it through Congress to bail us out. ZERO.
I'm fine with making whatever my wages will get me in a competitive market. I'm sick of farmers bitching about the horrible financial situation they're in when there are more subsidies for farming than you can pack in an eighteen-wheeler.
Fourth, some people like slaving in the hot sun digging ditches or roofing houses. I know two people personally who basically said, "Fuck this" and quit their IT jobs and do something different. One paints houses for a living now. Less wages but he's freaking WAY happier. The other does his own deck/patio/landscaping business. Again, he makes less wages, works harder physically, but LOVES his work. And he gets to go home and be with his family when he wants regardless of anybody's arbitrary deadlines. So saying we're bitching when other people have it worse because of what job they do is subjective. People tend to work at the job they like or can put up with because it pays well enough. Period. I get sick of this comparison because so many manual laborers in my family wouldn't take my job even for the money I make because they HATE computers and technology in general, they are OUTDOOR types, and prefer the feeling they get after a day of hard physical labor over the feeling they get after staring at a 17" monitor for 12 hours. I'd hate to have their jobs because I hate the outdoors. It's too freaking hot, too muggy, and full of WAY too many insects. But the fact is, they deserve better than they get and I probably do too.
Which lead me to this: if
Re:More power to you. (Score:3, Insightful)
I know plenty of people who sweat their balls off pouring concrete or laying pipe, but they got into a union and make more than I do as a salaried computer engineer. Sometimes MUCH more than I do. just cuz you don't know how to look for the right job doesn't mean that all labor jobs are for shit. There's plenty of money to be made. If you don't like computers, or like to be outside, or in shape, or whatever reason, it doesn't mean I have to feel bad for you because of your "tough working conditions."
Re:More power to you. (Score:2, Insightful)
During the summer I had one heat stroke, cut myself fairly badly a few times with a machete, sweated so much you only urinated once a day in a painful dark yellow stream (yes really, ask anyone who works in high heat). During the winter your glasses froze up and you could not see, toes and hands were numb at the end of the day, you alternated between sweat from exertion and then it freezing on your body.
None of this could slow you down too much, the job had to get done. If it did slow you down too much (past what it is given you should) you worked voertime for no pay. If the job wasn't finished and you were about to pass out from exhaustion you worked overtime (with pay at least). In most outside jobs if it rains you can not work and do not get payed.
The only thing it really won at (unless you were a part chief) was stress. All this for about 10 dollars an hour.
So, yep, I considered it whining. Like most of the people that this is expressed to they do not seem to believe it. I encourage you to try one of these jobs. Lets face it, if you hate your current working conditions *that* much you ought to try soemthing else. "Office Space" withstanding, construction work is terrible. There are the occasional outfit that are lazy (say, state road workers around here, though amusing enough they also wine constantly about having to work too hard - yea buddy, if private industry is so grand why don't you work for one) but they are not the norm.
Usually people do not like working outside, they hate working indoors more or are uneducated and can't get a white collar job.
Re:More power to you. (Score:2, Insightful)
Farmers aren't just given free money, they are given low-interest loans. Rarely are they able to pay these loans back and most often the farmers go out of business. The family farmer does need to be saved. Everywhere I look family farms are being bought by developers who turn them into houses, which have people, which have cars, which clogg the roads and pollute my air. I would rather smell cow manure, than car exhaust. At least you get used to the cow smell.
Right now only agribusiness is what produces most of your food, and they don't care about taking care of their animals, genetically modifying your food or using pesticides. Anything they can do to increase food output and profits, they will do. We don't want a food monopoly and we don't want to depend on foriegn countries for our food. To put this in a way geeks can understand, can you imagine if you depended on microsoft not for your OS, but for your food? You would go hungry.