Why Offshore When Canada's Next Door? 1111
Roblimo writes "A study by accounting and consulting giant PriceWaterhouseCoopers claims Canada could lose up to 75,000 IT jobs by 2010 to offshore outsourcing, but could also *gain* 165,000 jobs through U.S. outsourcing contracts. The trick is, according to this story at IT Manager's Journal, that while Indian, Chinese, and Russian programmers may cost 80% less than U.S. programmers, the time zone, language, legal, and other problems involved with sending work half way around the world can eat up much of the labor savings, while Canadian programmers are nearby, speak English with nearly American accents, have a similar culture and legal system, and get paid 40% less than U.S. programmers. Might be time to think about moving North, eh?"
Big $$$ in the Great White North (Score:2, Informative)
Seriously, most of my fellow Canadians where I live are happy to have jobs in IT at all, and guys working in American call centres doing dubious 'IT' work like selling photocopiers make more than the programmers I know.
Re:Well, I'm one example (Score:2, Informative)
I'm moving to Vancouver next month (Score:3, Informative)
I'm part of what Canada calls the "Brain Drain" where large numbers of highly (yet cheaply) educated Canadians rush to the States after graduating. The U.S. (California in particular) provided an opportunity to make a lot of money. My company stopped hiring Canadians (and actually anyone out-of-state) soon after I started, to cut out relocation costs.
I've been saying that companies should out-source to Canada ever since this out-sourcing thing became a big deal. Now that the tide is turning, I wonder what they will rename the "Brain Drain" to!?
40% is all relative. (Score:5, Informative)
As a point of interest, my company tranferred me to London, England for 2 years. Overnight my salary more than doubled, but my costs more than tripled. I've since moved back and despite the large paycut from returning to a Canadian salary, it works out better for me in the end due to cost of living differences.
Mercer human resources has a chart [mercerhr.com]outlining cost-of-living differences in the world. Ottawa - my current home - is almost exactly 40% cheaper than New York. Canada's most expensive city (Toronto) is only slightly higher than the US's lowest city (Pittsburgh).
Re:Always a good thing (Score:3, Informative)
Strictly speaking, Convergys is headquartered in Cincinnati, Ohio. It is the result of what happended when a firm called CBIS aquired, merged and otherwise assimilated variety of other firms then changed its name. CBIS (Cincinnati Bell Information Systems) was, as the name implies, a spin-off of the local telephone company.
They are no doubt taking advantage of wage advantages described in the article.
#endif
Re:The land of the free (Score:2, Informative)
Re:I should have it so well. (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Canada, a Freedom Loving America (Score:2, Informative)
Canadian Sysadmin (Score:3, Informative)
If I moved, I could make a lot more, but I'm also currently living in a small town. So if you wanted to compare:
If I moved to a larger city, rent could probably be around $600-800+ for about the same accomodations as I have now, gas would be up a bit, car insurance insane... but I'd also be expecting to make a fair bit more so it would probably still put me ahead.
Where do I sign up (Score:5, Informative)
"Looks like I'll be moving up north" or
"Where do I sign up?"
Well, you can Sign up here [cic.gc.ca]
Thats the Citizenship and Immigration Canada website, with all the forms and whatnot for admission to the country. Enjoy!
Re:What about piss testing? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:1, Informative)
Real estate is a bargain compared to the major US cities. As mentioned by others, Canada is very similar to the US in most ways, but a little different in others. I would not expect that many Americans would notice much difference in their day to day lives. You would at tax time, and you would after a hospital visit, you certainly would if you wanted to take your Glock out with you. But as far as the normal daily routine, not so much. Fewer people, more natural beauty (the US is beautiful, we just have more areas that haven't been developed yet), a little more laid back. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, even with the cold, and the taxes. Nothing is perfect, but for me, Canada has a pretty good balance.
Eh. (couldn't do a whole post without at least one, for authenticity)
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:5, Informative)
Consider that a chocolate bar or a can of Coke costs $1cdn here and when across the border the same candy or Coke costs $1usd, that alone accounts for the cost of living savings. Americans can't buy new Canadian cars and import them back to the US because they are cheaper here.
Granted living in NYC has its advantages, but don't compare a large city such as NYC to some small city in Canada. Compare it to cities like Toronto, and Montreal, where you can do just the same things, and probably experience MORE culture there than in NYC. These are large international cities that host world events such as NYC, and dramatically a lot safer too. No worries of gun toting bandits in Canada.
- I once went to a sporting goods store in the US, and found stacks and stacks of bullets sitting on the floor without any sort of security with a sign marks "On sale, 25% off all calibre bullets and shotgun shells". Don't they lock up dangerous goods behind secure areas???
Re:Because Canada is fucking freezing (Score:3, Informative)
I live in BC. In a desert.
Seriously.
Portions of the interior of BC, around the Thompson-Okanagan region are actually considered deserts. We get little precipitation (ie: snow) and in the summer temperatures can hit 40 degrees C or 104 F.
In winter, we don't usually drop below -10 (about 15 F).
Vancouver, a 3 hour drive away, gets almost no snow in the winter (although a lot of rain) and is more temperate in the summer.
Please, don't. (Score:5, Informative)
You'll find it even harder to find a job then we do being a foreigner without a permanent visa.
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:1, Informative)
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:3, Informative)
However my trips to the states have shown that getting premium liquors (i.e scotch but not beer) is cheaper in Canada (esp Alberta and NorthWest Territories)
Re:I should have it so well. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:2, Informative)
In general when companies ask for a 'graduate engineer' (an an example) that's what they want, some-one inexperienced, docile and easily trained to their way of thinking. Its no good being an experienced guy who insists he's happy with the money and the responsibility. They won't believe you.
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:1, Informative)
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:2, Informative)
Under NAFTA, don't the US and Canada have the same policy towards each other?
I'm a Canadian who came to the US under the Canada-US free trade agreement (the precursor to NAFTA) and all I had to do was show that I was a Canadian citizan, that I had a degree in one of the listed areas, and that I had a job offer from a US company. I paid a $50 processing fee at the border, and was given a one year work visa renewable indefinitely.
Admittedly, I came to the US 14 years ago, but I was under the impression things were pretty much the same under NAFTA.
Is it more difficult than that for US citizens to work in Canada?
Re:It isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be (Score:3, Informative)
Wow, now that's a concrete and profound statement.
Canada has Chartered Banks [www.cba.ca]. This is a wonderful thing. It means that when you travel, you can find a branch of your own Bank! It also means that there is excellent inter-bank co-operation and the level of service is generaly quite good. It's certainly less risky and less confusion than all the Mom & Pop S&Ls that seem to dot the landscape south of 49.
In fact, they look to be in fine shape. [statcan.ca]
50% tax rates?? (Score:5, Informative)
The approximate tax rates are (fed+prov combined):
Up to 35,000: ~22%
Up to ~70,000: ~31%
Over 70,000: ~38%
But we also receive tax credits, and if you contribute $ to your retirement savings plan you can greatly reduce the amount of tax paid.
Overall I pay about 26% tax on my yearly income. Nowhere near 50%!
Re:French-Canadians? (Score:5, Informative)
Here's some census in fo for you.
1996 Census info on Language [communication.gc.ca]
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:It isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be (Score:3, Informative)
If you want to see a specialist. Well, that's another story...
Re:sorry (Score:5, Informative)
The maximum tax rate in Canada at the federal level is 29%, and that kicks in when you make more than $113,000. Since the tax rate is progressive, you pay nothing on the first $8000, 16% on the money between $8000 and $35,000, 22% on the money between $35,000 and $70,000, and 26% on the money between $70,000 and $113,000.
The highest tax rate in the country is in Newfoundland/Labrador, and at it's MAXIMUM, you pay a TOTAL (that means including federal tax) of 47.02% on money over $113,000. Remember that the tax rate is progressive. If you make $113,001, you pay 47 cents of tax on that ONE DOLLAR, but everything below that is taxed at a lower rate.
Nowhere in Canada does you full tax approach 50%. You may be paying anywhere from 30% - 40%, depending on how good a job you have.
In Alberta (the lowest tax rate in the country - a flat rate of 10%), your personal exemption is $14,337 and the federal exemption is $8012. You pay 16% federal tax up to $35,000, and a flat 10% provincial tax.
So, we'll do provincial tax first. You only have to pay tax on $20667 because of the exemption. It's 10%, so you pay $2067 provincial tax.
Federally, you would pay tax on 26988. The rate is 16% in this bracket, so that's $4318. That's a grand total of $6385 on $35,000. That works out to a total of about 18% of your gross income.
Please stop saying that we're taxed at 50%. It simply isn't true. I've given you the number, and you can do the math yourself. NOBODY IN CANADA PAYS 50% TAX.
Whether or not there's corruption and waste in the government is another discussion. (Though it is worth noting that while the government pissed our money away, the books were still balanced. We haven't had a deficit budget in years.)
Oh, and here's where I got the tax info from. Check my math yourself. It's possible that I made a mistake, but the conclusion is still true.
http://www.taxtips.ca/tax_rates.htm
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:3, Informative)
I just got my paycheque. My income tax deduction was 20.097%, and I have extra taken off to ensure that I won't owe at the end of the year.
I'm a technical worker, and my income is higher than the median income, nationally.
Even if I paid GST and PST on every dollar I spent, my total tax rate could not be higher than 34.597%, logically, given 7% GST and 7.5% GST. Sure, there are those hidden taxes, such as on gas or liquour, but I think it all balances out. My tax rate is not more than 35%.
I have read that in Norway it is possible to be taxed at a rate that is higher than your income, so I suspect that their median tax rate is hgiher than Canada's.
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:5, Informative)
Try using the International Salary Calculator [homefair.com], it's handy. According to that, if you made $80,000 USD in San Francisco, you'd need to make just over $60,000 USD in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada (a.k.a. "Silicon Valley North") to enjoy the same standard of living. Also, Ottawa is one of the top 5 most expensive places to live in Canada.
The biggest difference, of course, is that housing is cheaper in Canada, and so is food. You save a LOT on your medical expenses, since Americans spend on average $5400 USD per year on medical expenses, and Canadians only spend about $3500 on average, (if I remember correctly), but get better care than the average American, though I suppose not as nice as the richest.
Also, depending on the province you live in, you can save a lot of money if they have non-profit government run auto insurance. As well, automobiles themselves are cheaper, even ones built on the same assembly line. If you want to check, go to gm.com and do a "build your own vehicle", then do the same exact thing on gmcanada.com, and compare the final MSRPs. You have to do the conversion for the exchange, but it's much cheaper in Canada, even with the higher tax rate.
Gas is more expensive in Canada (about 25% higher, depending) due to taxes, but the cities are smaller, so you tend to spend less time commuting. Other things taxed more are alcohol and cigarettes, but that's supposed to help pay for the health care. Might as well be the drinkers and smokers that carry the burden there, eh?
Food is cheaper in Canada, but clothing is more expensive. Electronics are more expensive, but you can always get a buddy to pick something up for you in the U.S. at cheaper prices.
Broadband internet access is generally wider spread in Canada, and cheaper, because Canadians are more urban than our American counterparts.
Income tax itself isn't that much different anymore, though it used to be. I know for certain, since I have to file both. I'm a computer engineer, and I find that I would pay the same in either country, within a couple hundred dollars. Sales tax, of course, is higher in Canada.
If you're right leaning, you can always move to Alberta, which is a booming wild west place. If you'd prefer the government pay your way, there's always the east coast, and if you're a greenpeace member, there's always the west coast. If you're an accountant, then you'll be at home in Ontario, but Quebec's always close by for those big let-your-hair-down parties. In particular, if you can't shovel snow, Toronto's the place for you, because if it ever snows more than 3 cm, they'll declare a state of emergency and call the army in to shovel your driveway for you.
Just to be fair... Manitoba's population density is 1.9 people per square kilometre and if your dog runs away there, you can still see him running 3 days later, and Saskatchewan is a cooler version of Arizona (dog thing also applies, but the dog will probably be eaten alive by grasshoppers by the 3rd day).
Re:Canada, a Freedom Loving America (Score:4, Informative)
Even getting citizenship in Canada is a breeze compared to the states, especially for us "third world escapees". After I had lived here for 5 years, I applied for citizenship, and within a year and half, had gone through the entire process.
I don't know where you're getting those statements from, but they definitely don't reflect my experience with Canadian immigration. I find the bureaucracy here to be much more tempered than in the states. Not nearly as much red tape to deal with.
-Laxitive
Re:But the flipside... (Score:2, Informative)
This kind of misinformation is annoying. I make about $55,000/year (CDN). About 23% of that goes to taxes. Other deductions (SuperAnnuation (Pension Plan), Uninon Dues, CPP (Federal Pension Plan), and EI (Employment Insurance)) work out to about 12% of my gross pay. So, I take home about 65% of my gross pay.
Now I live in Saskatchewan (Regina to be exact) which is by no means a tax haven compared to the rest of the country. Living expenses are incredibly low. $150,000 will get me a 1600 sqft house. Property tax on that... say about $3500. Our provincial government has a mandate to provide the lowest utility rates (water, power, gas, phone) in the country. Registering and insuring a car? It depends on the car of course, but I pay about $850/year for my '99 Intrepid. However, since I have a positive rating (accident free for several years) I get about 2% knocked off that. Gas is pricey. Its floating between 80 and 90 cents/litre right now. However, I only drive about 20K to work (maybe 10-15 mins). Parking is $70/month. My wife and I can get groceries for a month for under $300, and we aren't just getting KD and dried noodles.Regina also has a very thriving tech sector as well. The low cost of living has attracted several call centres including Staples and StarTek.
If you are interested in outsourcing here, or moving here, check out http://www.ir.gov.sk.ca/ [gov.sk.ca] The Sask Gov Industry and Resource Site.Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:2, Informative)
Oh, it would be so much funnier if it weren't true! Good ol' Mel!!! And I must say, it wasn't really that bad, ok, my car had some issues getting up this one hill on the way to class, but seriously... CBC - Toronto Calls in the Army [cbc.ca]
Re:Too Bad (Score:3, Informative)
Second, the way these polls happen and the questions asked really bias the results. I will paraphrase what I interpret to be the majority opinion here: "Americans are really cool, and they're our best friends. But their government SUCKS ASS and some of those hardcore NRA members and Right Wing Christians really freak us out."
Additionally... (Score:3, Informative)
Small businesses get taxed at a much lower rate. In Nova Scotia (where I currently reside), the combined provincial/federal tax rate on small business is a mere %18.1 for the first $300k AFTER EXPENSES, and you can expense damn near anything that's biz-related (trips, meals, cars, computers, etc). You can then also take personal funds from the company out up to $25k/year as a tax-free dividend (may be going up soon!).
The upshot is if you incorporate and you have your wife on board as a signing officer, between the two of you you can pull out $50k @ %18.1 total tax, and the rest at a relatively low marginal rate, all while providing yourself with the trappings of money on the company dime through junketeering and expensing. And if your company grows, you can use additional corp funds by issuing yourself a shareholder loan for basically any amount, at any time.
The mantra that Canada is 'business unfriendly due to taxes' is basically just a warcry for those who want even MORE tax breaks in a country where many businesses would already operate with less tax burden than US counterparts. The reality is that I pay at or below the tax rates of many people to my south (particularly california).
If you're in Canada and making more than 70k/year, seriously look into incorporation. Your tax situation will improve dramatically.
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:3, Informative)
For Americans this could be a downside:
You can't be called an Engineer if you didn't do a 4 year college program... like, for exemple, MIT...
So no "Sales Engineer" around here...
Our company already "off-shores" to Canada (Score:3, Informative)
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:3, Informative)
Where does this 50% figure come from? The most I pay in combined Provincial & Federal taxes is about 35%.
News is already old (Score:1, Informative)
And if you're an American programmer , you still will lose your job. What does it matter if it goes to Canada or India ? The only reason I could see is that it would be easier to move to Canada and integrate yourself into their society.
Re:Tax Freedom Day .... (Score:4, Informative)
From the site's FAQ:
In short, they're throwing in things that none of us consider to be taxes on income. They're saying "we" pay for corporate taxes and mining and petro royalties.
If we did this to the U.S., it would work out the same because the U.S. also has price controls on tabacco, sugar, corn and a host of other foods. Not to mention the county and state taxes on the phone bill, etc. Don't buy the propoganda.