Why Offshore When Canada's Next Door? 1111
Roblimo writes "A study by accounting and consulting giant PriceWaterhouseCoopers claims Canada could lose up to 75,000 IT jobs by 2010 to offshore outsourcing, but could also *gain* 165,000 jobs through U.S. outsourcing contracts. The trick is, according to this story at IT Manager's Journal, that while Indian, Chinese, and Russian programmers may cost 80% less than U.S. programmers, the time zone, language, legal, and other problems involved with sending work half way around the world can eat up much of the labor savings, while Canadian programmers are nearby, speak English with nearly American accents, have a similar culture and legal system, and get paid 40% less than U.S. programmers. Might be time to think about moving North, eh?"
Well, I'm one example (Score:4, Interesting)
And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:4, Interesting)
40% Less Pay (Score:2, Interesting)
very few IT jobs in canada. (Score:1, Interesting)
this alone make the difference. in canada you would have to pay engineers $40 CDN an hour while in india is $4 CDN or equivalent. this allows more engineers to sit on the bench, allowing faster scale up.
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:5, Interesting)
Always a good thing (Score:5, Interesting)
Canada really is the ideal place for US companies to outsource. If you have a Roadrunner cable modem and have ever called tech support, chances are you've been talking to someone at a local Ottawa firm called Convergys. I bet you never knew it, either.
Its been happening for years..... (Score:3, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:5, Interesting)
But since the cost of living is so high in L.A. and San Fran things start to work out. From what I've seen living in both countries is that dollar for dollar many items are the same price or at least close. An American $499 Dell is Canadian $550. An American $2.00 loaf of bread is $1.00 Canadian.
My standard of living will not be changing too much when I move from the States to Canada. Even though I'm taking a pay cut.
It's The Productivity Rate, Stupid (Score:1, Interesting)
Indian programmers cost 1/4th the amount typically paid for an American programmer. A 4:1 bang-per-buck ratio.
What outsourcing firms wont tell you is that you're also buying into an average 6:1 loss in productivity [allianceibm.org]. American coders are better educated, and have more experience -- This results in _better_ quality code that's produced _faster_ than their Indian counterparts.
Sure, you're saving your company money, but you're also taking an enormous hit in productivity. Your offshore project is putt-putting along at 15 MPH when the rest of the industry is doing the equivalent of 10 over in a 65 MPH highway. By the time your product hits the street, your competitors are already dominating the market AND working on their next release.
Something to think about.
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:5, Interesting)
It's no wonder why we're home to Bioware, Quicken, and large support centers for General Electric and Hewlett Packard.
Personal experience. (Score:3, Interesting)
For example, a typical, 2500-3000 sq ft house around Poughkeepsie (Hopewell Jct to be specific) went for about 300-800k USD. A friend of mine bought a 2500 sq ft (ranch) house 15 min drive from down town Montreal for 140k CAD, with a pool and a very nice neighbourhood.
140k CAD is aprox 100k USD(at about 70 cents to the canadian dollar). So by this rough (I am sure prices in Hopewell have soared even higher), at worst the price is 66% less, and at best upwards of 88% less than the US counter part in that area.
Is it worth it? Thats for you to decide. I know I have more disposable income, even when converted to USD.
I do have the added benefit of being a dual citizen, but that is a minor issue. As long as you have a degree and a letter from a company stating you have a standing job offer in Canada, it's a matter of going to the border patrol office and they will do a little paper work (from what I have been told, less than a hour) and you are all set.
Canadian Accents? What's that aboot? (Score:3, Interesting)
This quip really made my day. Now I know that accents vary over North America, but the idea that the "Canadian" accent is distinctly different from an "American" accent is really laughable.
Compare a New England accent to a Southern accent to a Maritime, to an Ottawa valley, to who knows what other region. Accents vary by much greater degrees within the two countries than they do between them. Or do most Americans feel like Canadians all talk the same, and that is somehow different from all Americans? I'd love to hear opinions on this... Cue South Park quotes now...
Too Bad (Score:3, Interesting)
I think outsourcing is fine (Score:2, Interesting)
Not to mention the fact that freeing up millions of dollars the company is currently spending to invest elsewhere can only be good in the long run. Yes, I know your job might be eliminated in the short term, but that doesn't mean you can't get back out there and learn new skills or take on a completely different job. No one ever said that living in America was a free ride. We've all gotta work hard to make our living here. More money being pumped back into our economy due to outsourcing will, IMO, continue to raise stock prices, make the rich richer who will in turn spend their money on more frivolous products, which drives business further ahead. Besides, when the mega-rich have more 'stuff' they need more people to upkeep it, which is a good place for the poor and unemployed to get themselves back on their feet in the short-term so that they aren't wasting their earning potential in the long-term.
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes. That truely is what matters. Am I correct in supposing the cost of living in Canada is similar to that of the Northern US? I'm sure it is significantly less then tech-heavy places like California.
If US companies are considering outsourcing to Canada, it seems like they could try other places in the US where they could hire people for less then in California or NY.
I live in Lexington, Ky which, despite being in a state with an agriculture based economy, has a fairly large tech community. Some big name companies here are IBM and Lexmark (LEXmark LEXington.) I read somewhere where Lexington is ranked 9th in US cities in percentages of persons with at least a Bachelors degree. It's a city where you can live lavishly or have a quiet and comfortable life. Hey, I've even seen Shatner in a coffee shop here.
I think there are still lots of opportunities in the US before the Canada route is taken. There are places other then the West Coast available for programming/tech jobs.
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:2, Interesting)
Health Care Costs (Score:3, Interesting)
The down side, of course, is more tax. And the CBC.
It isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be (Score:5, Interesting)
My wife has family all over Canada, and I can tell you that from their experiences, the healthcare system isn't all that great. While everyone has coverage, it can be pretty tough to get in to see a doctor. Things take longer because their system is swamped. And I remember something about how the banking industry isn't that good up there, so you don't get decent interest rates. Or something like that, I can't remember. I just meant to say that it is no "wonderland", they do have their own issues.
But damn, are they polite up there. We went there on our honeymoon, took a 2 day tour on the Rocky Mountaineer [rockymountaineer.com]. When we were pulling out of the station in Vancouver, there was graffiti sprayed on a nearby overpass. What did it say?
"Welcome to Vancouver".
Cracked my ass UP. Victoria was absolutely beautiful, I would move there in a second if I thought I could find a job.
Re:sorry (Score:1, Interesting)
I find that people often lack context when they make these accusations. 100% honesty and integrity does not exist anywhere. its a human failing and realistically any government, regardless of its checks and balances, is prone to it by virtue of the humans that comprise it.
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:3, Interesting)
I take 20% of my salary now and save it away. It has grown to about $100,000. If I had a job in Canada, that would mean I would only have $60,000 saved up isntead of $100,000.
YEs, moving to Canada after you retire makes a lot of sense, but to anyone that is currently saving to retire, it makes FAR more sense to get the higher paying job.
If I lived in Toronto I could only go tango dancing 5 days a week, not 7. And I would not have choice of Milongas. I would HAVE to own a car, and have to worry about how I am getting home when I am drunk because your public transportation system is not as good as NYC's, especially late at night. You do have some nice plays and museums, but NYC has a slight edge there.
While in New York City, I have NEVER, NOT ONCE, seen a gun in the hands of anyone except a NYC cop. NYC is currently one of the safest cities in North America, and like you said , you we have to compare Toronto to NYC, not general Canada to general USA.
Canada is a nice place to retire too, but I wouldn't want to work there.
Outsourcing to India & China (Score:1, Interesting)
Outsource to the US (Score:5, Interesting)
Where I live in Illinois, the cost of living is:
And my city is slightly above the national average for cost of living.
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Where do I sign up (Score:3, Interesting)
(a) finangle a job offer from a Canadian company, which of course will be conditional on you getting the permit
(b) show up at the border with the offer letter, your resume showing a couple years' experience, and proof of your education, and
(c) convince the border worker that these docs are legit and, very important, that they are consistent in their content (trying to take a sysadmin job with an English BA will be problematic). Then
(d) start work, find the beer store and buy suitable seasonal clothing, in whatever order suits you.
The hardest part is (a). But keep an eye on workopolis.ca, and be prepared to cover your own travel for interviewing and relocation.
S.
UN says Canada is a better place to live (Score:4, Interesting)
Pay Scales in Canada (Score:3, Interesting)
As an example, im in London, Ontario, which has a population of about 350K. Im a fairly high level developer, basically one step below IT manager. I pull in about 60K a year. From my understanding, I could go to New York city and basically double my salary, and have a 10% less tax to pay. Ditto, I could go to Toronto, and make about the same almost double what I make now ( more like 40% more ), but really what does that money buy me.
I am in the process of buying a luxury loft, 1,700 square feet in size, for about 150K. From what I understand, the same would cost me about about 400K in Toronto, and probrably well over 1/2 million in either NY or Cali. After, expenses, taxes and all that crap, im probrably left with about 1,500 a month of disposable income. That includes my mortgage, car payment, getting reamed for taxes ( that part aint a myth
As to currency differences, to be honest, I dont really see any. When I go visit our Lansing site in Michigan, I pay basically the same as I would in canada when I eat out, get a hotel, order a beer. It used to be we could cross the border and save a ton of cash on things like gas, smokes, groceries, etc... but now, thats no longer true. Actually, I have a friend whos business consists of buying vehicles in Canada, and driving them up to the States for resale. Gives you a hit at how the exchange rates work
There are plenty of reasons to chose one country over the other... but wage sure isnt one of them. Cost of living/standard of living is the most important thing... wage is... when comparing one location to another... just a useless number.
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:3, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be (Score:5, Interesting)
One of the biggest problems we have here is with medical imaging. The cost of MRI equipement and technicians is absolutely astronomical which makes funding these clinics publically much more difficult than normal clinical staff in a hospital. Imaging is a pre-operative necessity in and this respect the entire system is gummed up at one point. Of course to the ignorant it looks as if the whole system doesn't work. That's not the case at all.
Upon inspection of most public healthcare programs here the major stumbling points usually have nothing to do with the talent of the staff or funding as such but more so to do with economic pressure from the south. Millions of Canadian tax dollars are used to train RN's and MD's who take work south of the border every year. Canadian healthcare workers are a rare breed who get paid peanuts compared to their US counterparts because they believe in equal access for all. The idea of uncomprimised equality for all is a very much a part of our culture in Canada. It is indeed no wonderland however our detractors from south of the border usually don't know all the details.
Why not the Midwest or South? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Well, I'm one example (Score:3, Interesting)
Horrible place to work for, though. $11 / hr for phone support, $9 / hr for customer sales support. Great benefits, but doesn't make up for it at all. All trainees spend 3 months doing the 5am - 1:30pm shift. After that, they change your shift based on your test / training scores. They're the biggest employer in the city, yet have the highest turn over rate of any business in the city (gee, I wonder why?).
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:1, Interesting)
Our police doesn't do shit. They way that they operate is wait until something happens then go after the guy. Legal system is very skewed to "be fair" on the side of criminals. They spend great money on education, result? greater output of stupid people.
How about: (this was in my high school) "If you are stupid that you cannot spell, TDSB (Toronto District School Board) will buy them a laptop with M$ software and will pay for all additional software they want to install, while sometimes we didn't have toilet paper in toilets.
Also a big mafia regarding textbooks. Schools can only use "certified" textbooks (I don't mind that part in theory, but read on) which cost $120+. There is no way that a picture book can cost>$100. What is happening is that folks in government make deals with publishing companies and sort of split the profit while taxpayers tout their public education.
Similar things happen in various other government "funded" tax-funded branches. The result is that they are getting the same product but paying four times more for it.
For fellow Americans this is also similar to 'defence' contracts where money is often split between companies of relatives and friends.
So no, Canada is not much different, they just find more creative ways to hide connections and brush off trails.
~omi
Lots of good Canadian companies (Score:3, Interesting)
MSN pays C$9/hr in Canada (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:3, Interesting)
That study is probably misleading in this case because it doesn't take into account the local pay scale. Vancouver is still damned expensive. The houses cost a fortune, gas costs 10% more than Eastern Canada due to taxes & transportation, groceries cost more due to transportation and because the union at Safeway has such a sweet deal, and golf costs 20% more. Internet costs the same though.
-a
Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm a software engineer living in Vancouver, making $50k Canadian a year. That works out to about $33k Cdn after taxes.
Rent for a 1 bedroom basement suite in a nice area (Kerrisdale) is $825/month, includes basic utilities, but phone ($40/month) and ADSL ($25/month) is extra.
Car insurance is about $1400/year, I get a 40% safe driver discount, and I'm a 20-something male that drives a Firebird.
Food costs me about $200/month although that isn't very accurate since that includes making dinner for the girlfriend, etc.
Gas is fairly expensive, it's been hovering around 92c/L.
CD's are cheap in Vancouver because of A&B Sound. Top 40ish artist picked at random:
http://www.absound.ca/ProductDetailMusic.aspx?P
$18.00 CDN for a new, popular CD.
The best thing about living in Vancouver is the range of outdoor activities available to everyone, hiking, fishing, hunting, climbing, sailing, etc.. I'm not into the bar scene so I have no idea what that is like.
Re:French-Canadians? (Score:2, Interesting)
It's not the plague you know; as a french speaking IT worker I can say that most of us speak at least enough english to be functionnal in the workplace. As for non-IT workers in Quebec it's another story. The thing is, english is basicaly a necesity in computers since most litterature and jargon associated with CS is english. We do have some lousy translations for things like E-Mail (Courriel), Software (Logiciel), Freeware (Gratuitciel) but they never really got momentum as far as common use goes.
You don't lose 40% (Score:3, Interesting)
You gain free universal health care, safer streets, lots of water, better beer and you get to live in the homeland of the most famous TV and music stars