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Microsoft Operating Systems Software The Almighty Buck Windows

Microsoft Outsourcing High-Level Work 660

philistine writes "The Seattle Times reports
A Seattle labor group said it has new evidence that Microsoft is shifting high-level work to foreign contractors, including work on the next version of Windows. The evidence is a cache of Microsoft contracts with Indian technology vendors that were leaked to the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, an AFL-CIO affiliate that has focused on outsourcing in its effort to organize tech workers."
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Microsoft Outsourcing High-Level Work

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  • Comment removed (Score:2, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday July 29, 2004 @04:26PM (#9836260)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Re:Come on! (Score:5, Informative)

    by strictnein ( 318940 ) * <{strictfoo-slashdot} {at} {yahoo.com}> on Thursday July 29, 2004 @04:30PM (#9836315) Homepage Journal
    hmm... that is interesting. if you just drop the "it." from the front, the color scheme disappears and you get the normal slashdot colors.
  • by RussHart ( 70708 ) on Thursday July 29, 2004 @04:33PM (#9836372) Homepage
    Simply change your DNS records to resolve it.slashdot, games.slashdot, or whatever colour (yes, I'm British) scheme you don't like, and Robert's your proverbial uncle...

    Personally, I've done so, except of apple.slashdot, which I quite like...
  • by Kunta Kinte ( 323399 ) on Thursday July 29, 2004 @04:39PM (#9836444) Journal

    saying-good-bye-to-the-middle-class dept.

    Forget the many economist that make arguments like this one [economist.com], stating that outsourcing will ultimately benefit consumers...

    Forget government data that downplays the significance of offshore work...

    Forget the fact that companies like Microsoft sell millions of dollars worth of software to foreign countries around the world...

    ...and just jump to the conclusion that the entire US middle class is doomed.

    Nice!

  • by gilroy ( 155262 ) on Thursday July 29, 2004 @04:57PM (#9836724) Homepage Journal
    Blockquoth the poster:

    they'll have miles and miles of new spaghetti code introduced by programmers who's native language isn't English. Yes they may know English but since they're not located in the US they'll likely be using another language to communicate in their local workplace.

    Um, they're contracting with India. English is spoken quite well there -- perhaps not the accent you're used to, but still the Queen's English.
  • Re:Come on! (Score:3, Informative)

    by NanoGator ( 522640 ) on Thursday July 29, 2004 @05:10PM (#9836906) Homepage Journal
    "Here's the god awful color again. How tough it this to change?"

    It's easy. From the Slashdot login page, look to your left. You'll see your username. Click on 'preferences' right under it. Then click on the 'Homepage' tab. Just under the timezone bit, there's a checkbox next to 'light'. Click that. Slashdot will look barren at first, but it's easy to get used to. No more ugly color schemes and you get a less complex page.

    Simple. Now quitcherbitchen. The color scheme isn't that bad. It aint great, but it's not +4 insightful.
  • by Percy_Blakeney ( 542178 ) on Thursday July 29, 2004 @05:13PM (#9836942) Homepage
    For all I know the Indians might be better programmers but working on the law of averages the problem solving ability of an indivdual is probably independant of their location.

    Since when did the law of averages have anything to do with programming ability? I would say that Indians generally are not only better programmers, on average, but better theoretical computer scientists, too.

    Go look up some of the premier computer science departments in the country (or even around the world) and take a hard look at the number of Indians (and Chinese) PhD students. Then go look at the average quantitative GRE scores of Asians [ets.org] and compare them to other races. Seeing anything interesting?

    The reality is that the education system in India is generally more rigorous, especially when it comes to math. I doubt that Microsoft's primary motive for outsourcing is money -- they're not hurting for cash -- but instead is simply an effort to try and find a large number of great computer scientists. Unless we start increasing the effectiveness of our own elementary and secondary school systems, we're going to be slowly left behind.

  • by JustNiz ( 692889 ) on Thursday July 29, 2004 @05:23PM (#9837050)
    I'a a 25-year veteran of working as a software developer as both a permie and a consultant.

    I know the politically-correct policy is to consider that programmers from countries such as India do reasonable work, but my experience is that it is just not true. I keep finding that the resultant source-code from outsourcing is abysmal.

    I've worked on projects for several different companies where programming has been outsourced to India and Russia, and it has always cost way more money to put it right than outsourcing the project has saved.

    I expect Microsoft will also find this out the hard way, and to the end-users disadvantage.

  • by johnnyb ( 4816 ) <jonathan@bartlettpublishing.com> on Thursday July 29, 2004 @05:42PM (#9837274) Homepage
    "I did my duty"

    You started your own company and are employing others?
  • by pe1chl ( 90186 ) on Thursday July 29, 2004 @05:43PM (#9837279)
    My experience is that it does not matter to where you outsource it. Any job outsourced to another company can result in bad quality code.
    Remember that every company will tell you how good the quality of their programmers is, how good their methodology is, etc. But in the end they just allocate a bunch of programmers to your job, and every time a new (= always more important) job comes in, the best people are moved to there and a new load of trainees continues on your work.

    This can happen when you outsource to India, but it may just as well happen when you outsource to a reputable company in your own country.
  • by john_smith_45678 ( 607592 ) on Thursday July 29, 2004 @05:46PM (#9837305) Journal
    I think the motive of this story, and the slashdot editors publishing it is to take a swipe at Microsoft (yet again) as well as those who outsource. It's ironic and hypocritical then that the banner at the top of Slashdot's page was for this:

    Keep Offshore Development On Track

    Managing application development with both in-house and international teams is difficult, especially with 20th century LAN-based tools. Lack of visibility and control make it hard to stay on top of projects, changes and quality. IP security and traceability take on increased importance. And disparate tools, systems and processes create inefficiencies that contribute to project delays and higher direct and indirect costs.

    The best way to streamline and manage distributed development is with a Global Development Platform: a centralized, secure, web-based system that can integrate with &#151; and provide a common view into &#151; heterogeneous tools and systems to optimize team productivity while providing superior visibility and control.

    To learn more, simply complete the form below. An email will be automatically sent so you can download the "Keeping Offshore Development on Track" white paper.

    http://www.vasoftware.com/gateway/offshore21st.php [vasoftware.com]
  • by jaydonnell ( 648194 ) on Thursday July 29, 2004 @07:23PM (#9838310) Homepage
    "It sounds like a lot when you hear the numbers totalled up, but in the grand scheme of things it's not that much."

    Unless your one of the thousands laid off. I was a couple years ago and I still make about $10000 less than I did 4 years ago.

    "Protectionism is always self-defeating in the end"

    This annoys me more than anything. I do not have to be a protectionist to be critical of the situation. I can say that corporations should not get subsidies (our money) if they send jobs oversees. That's not protectionism. Another legitimate criticism is that we shouldn't trade "freely" with countries that don't allow unions, or that don't have reasonable labor and environmental standards.
  • by EmagGeek ( 574360 ) on Thursday July 29, 2004 @08:34PM (#9838910) Journal
    My employer has offices in several Indian cities. Not only is our high level work going over there, but the company actually brings them here on L-1 visas, pays them $10/hr to do our $70k/yr jobs, forces us to train them, and will not under any circumstances hire anyone in the US to fill vacancies before exhausting every L-1 or H1-B loophole they can find - and if they DO hire an American, it's a temp job w/o bennies or vacation or anything. Here's the kicker - if they end up contracting an American, that person is always someone of Indian descent that can speak the language - so they can communicate with all of the L-1 folks. Nice, eh?
  • by vrai ( 521708 ) on Friday July 30, 2004 @03:31AM (#9841385)
    I concur. The last two companies I've worked at have made some attempt to outsource high-level work (usually Java). In both cases the experiment failed because of the abysmal quality of code that was produced. It was pretty clear that the 'expert, degree level' people we'd paid for had about a weeks programming experience between them.

    Companies do not, have not and never will outsource because it results in good quality work. That's merely a lie to placate their customers. They outsource because it cuts costs and lower costs means higher stock price. Now given that most company directors have bonuses tied to rises in stock price, and the damage the outsourcing causes won't become apparent for a few years; it's pretty obvious why outsourcing is occuring.

  • by haggar ( 72771 ) on Friday July 30, 2004 @07:49AM (#9842240) Homepage Journal
    Our experience was exactly the same. In the end, we decided to try to hire the better performing individuals (if legally and contractually possible), and mostly dump the indian companies. Since a few years we are mostly using hungarian and polish contractors, in-house.

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