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Education Programming Technology

Northface University - Computer Science in Half the Time? 666

prostoalex writes "Associated Press runs a nationwide story on Northface University. The school, founded by a pair of venture capitalists and former technology chief found a niche with its highly intensive curriculum and corporate software development specialization. For example, a BSCS degree can be completed in a little over 2 years, and it comes with IBM's WebSphere and Microsoft's MCSD certification. Northface is also promoting its corporate partnerships, which allow current students to feel more secure about future employment. Grady Booch from IBM is quoted to be 'jazzed up' about the program, although there are many who oppose such approaches to college education."
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Northface University - Computer Science in Half the Time?

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  • by Shadow Wrought ( 586631 ) <shadow.wroughtNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday August 05, 2004 @01:58PM (#9891209) Homepage Journal
    Half the money

    At $60,000 for 2 years, it certainly doesn't sound like half the money. A four year degree from the Art Institute of Portland [artinstitute.edu] in game programming or game art is $64,000 for four years. Although the extra couple of years might seem like fluff there is alot to be said for the knowledge and thinking skills that can be obtained during that time.

    But that's my $.02

  • by GileadGreene ( 539584 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @02:03PM (#9891268) Homepage
    Perhaps Im wrong and this cariculum will teach excelent data structure usage, and algorithim analysis and AI and compiler design and low level architecture. But at this point i kind of doubt it.

    Looking at their curriculum course descriptions [northface.edu], I'd say that your doubts are well founded. Looks like a trade school with a few classes in logic and discrete math thrown in. I don't see much on software engineering (aside from lip service to "the complete software life cycle"), let alone any actual computer science.

  • by xenocide2 ( 231786 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @02:12PM (#9891389) Homepage
    This two year degree is pretty much the kind of crap you'd expect. No theory, little exposure advanced topics. The cirriculum [northface.edu] is pretty much a lesson in writing web applications for a small set of technologies. Apparently a critical part of all software is the Web.

    This is no drop in replacement for a well rounded and indepth degree you'll find at your local University. Accrediation means something, you know.
  • Re:Accredited? (Score:1, Informative)

    by siraim ( 473110 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @02:18PM (#9891465)
    They are accredited, but only in that community college / technical college way. You can get your BS from these guys, but not a single graduate program will touch you.
  • Re:Wow (Score:3, Informative)

    by Bellyflop ( 681305 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @02:21PM (#9891510)
    Can you believe that 26.5 credits of the degree are "externships"? Is that some kind of joke? Sure you'll get a little bit of project experience but no one is going to take your little college project seriously when you're applying for jobs.
    15 credits is "certification" courses in various random technologies. Most schools would consider them 1 credit courses at most for a total of 7 credits.
  • by siraim ( 473110 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @02:24PM (#9891536)
    They are accredited.. check their website. The ACICS accredited them. Which is good and bad. They are in the same boat as technical colleges and other online "universities".

    They'll give you a degree you can use to bolter your job opportunities, but gives you no chance for advancement. Graduate programs at any real University will absolutely laugh if you try to use this BS as meeting the requirement for admission.
  • by Facekhan ( 445017 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @02:25PM (#9891559)
    Anything that gives traditional colleges something to worry about is good. Its called healthy competition.

    Northface.edu runs 47 weeks a year and the program is composed of ten 10-week quarters.

    10 quarters x 10 weeks=100 weeks of class in two years as opposed to 8 semesters x 13 weeks=104 weeks of class in four years.

    Its a 4 year degree just a faster, cheaper (by a little bit), stronger one with additional benefits.

    It makes you wonder why traditional colleges don't do this. Perhaps it is because they like raking in inflated housing fees and food sales and the annual tuition hikes. Perhaps they are simply milking their aging business model of enslaving their grad students and treating undergrads like cattel instead of customers. For Profit Colleges and technical schools continue to innovate and traditional colleges are still living in the 1950's.

  • by Ellen Spertus ( 31819 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @02:33PM (#9891669) Homepage

    Mills College (Oakland, CA) has a program with similar goals [mills.edu], although a more academic focus. Specifically, Mills has post-baccalaureate programs [mills.edu] for people who already have a bachelor's degree in another field. Graduates go on to industry or to CS PhD programs, such as University of Washington, MIT, and UCSD. The coursework is primarily upper-division undergraduate CS courses, which are taught by faculty with PhDs from top schools, such as MIT, Princeton, and UC Berkeley.

    FYI, I [mills.edu] direct the program. We're having an Open House on Thursday, August 19, and are still accepting applications and awarding aid for this fall. Contact me [mailto] for more information.

  • by AuMatar ( 183847 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @02:42PM (#9891826)
    I used calculus just yeasterday- I needed to code a program, and there were two answers- an n time solution, or take the derivative on paper, and plug into the resulting equation in constant time.

    Physics- daily. Of course I work in an embedded field, so I deal with physical hardware every day.
  • So I was sitting in my project room during my lunchbreak here at Northface University, and was glad to see that we finally made it to /.! About time! But a lot of the comments have been pretty derrogatory. I don't know that I can defend against the deluge of posts, but at least I can let you in on what it's actually like here.

    Yes, Northface gets you through in 2 1/2 years as opposed to 4. We're also here at school, in classes, from 8 a.m. - 4 p.m. While the total number of years is less, I think the total amount of time in school (including homework) is quite comparable.

    Yes, I'd like to see a bit more math. I personally love math, and have passed up to Calc II. That's the one thing I miss about traditional Universities.

    Umm, not teaching critical thinking or hardware architecture? Okay, I agree there's no class specifically titled "Critical thinking" or "Hardware Architecture". But it's definitely there sprinkled in by the professors in their lectures. Dr. Halpin (ORM and databases) in particular puts a lot of logic problems into his assignments and lectures. Algorithm development has not been specifically taught yet (i.e., can you write a B-tree), but I'm only in my 2nd quarter here.

    The software development cycle and software architecture are heavily emphasized. I'm in a project team now that's working on things that my brother-in-law (who graduated with a BSCS from the University of Utah) never dreamed of getting into. Homework assignments in the traditional setting get you to work on problems. Project work at Northface gets you to work on all those problems and then see how they interact with each other.

    There's lots more to say. But there are probably a hundred other posts in the discussion that I need to catch up on. I emailed the other students here at Northface and encouraged them to post their experiences, so we'll see how this goes. It's no Ivory Tower over here, but I'll disagree with anyone who says we're not getting the people skills or the critical thinking experience that comes from a 4-year.

  • by ADRA ( 37398 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @03:06PM (#9892121)
    Amen brother!

    I know so many people with university education that are incompetent and I know some that are absolutely briliant.

    The school doesn't make the man/woman, its their own drive, determination, and their capacity for knowledge.

    As for grand-poster: I personally don't relate to the relevence of Calculus or Physics to Programming. I've been in many jobs, and the extent of my math usage has been algebraic. Yes, if your working on weather patterns, then sure it'll help, but look at it this way: If your working on an accounting software package you're better off having a diploma in accounting. If you're working on GUI's you may decide that User Interface Design courses are more applicable than calculus.

  • by siraim ( 473110 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @03:06PM (#9892128)
    Trust me, I'm not saying your degree won't provide you valuable information and training for a successful career in IT or software development. I'm simply saying that graduate programs at major universities do not look favorably on certain accreditation, ACICS included.

    Call a few local Universities with graduate programs in Computer Science and ask if they accept a degree with ACICS accreditation as sufficient for admission to their graduate programs. I'd be willing to be most will say that it is not. The University of Phoenix has the same problem.

    If you're not going to grad school, this is completely irrelevant.
  • by GileadGreene ( 539584 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @03:42PM (#9892617) Homepage
    Actually, if you stop to read their course descriptions [northface.edu] you 'll se the following (this just from the first quarter):
    LA 120 Written and Spoken Communications I

    Students strengthen their composition and oral presentation skills. Students examine the purpose, structure, logic, and language of expository writing. Students explore and apply appropriate skills for writing and public speaking, including the principles of rhetoric. Students learn the speech, composition, and delivery techniques needed to prepare for a variety of effective presentations.

    LA 125 Collaborative and Interpersonal Communications

    Students develop collaborative skills for successful interpersonal interactions and group work. Students learn and apply principles related to interpersonal communications, group dynamics, leadership and followership, benefits and caveats of group work, and the collaborative group life cycle.

    Not to say that I think this degree has any merit at all. But you are wrong about the fact that they don't teach "communication skills".
  • by MeShel ( 803069 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @04:10PM (#9893009)
    I also enjoy my non-CS classes often more than my CS classes. The funny thing about that is that I attend Northface University. One of the things I learned in a recent non-CS class is to check my sources and make sure I have the story straight before I present an idea. I transfered to Northface from another university, and I feel safe in saying that the reason we are here for only half the time is that we work twice as hard while we are here. Nothing is being left out of our curriculum.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 05, 2004 @04:15PM (#9893048)
    I am behind a firewall, so that explains my name, I can't create an account.

    I am a student from NU. Many people have made a lot of very uneducated assumptions about this school. I would just like to set them all straight.

    1. It is a trade school.

    This school is accredited by the accredidation board because the college is actually Morrison University (Which has been around for more than a century)

    2. It doesn't have enough life classes(ie pointless electives).

    I personally find that electives distract me. This school does require writing classes, language classes, history classes, and yes, even a PE credit or two. We have to jump through all of the same hoops as everyone else at other universities.

    3. 28 months isn't enough

    We actually spend more time than the average person seeking a BS. We spend 9 hours ever day in school. On average, I also spend about 2 hours a day outside of school working on homework. This totals out close to 5800 hours for this school.

    4. You won't learn enough

    I went to a pre-med school before this one. Including HS and pre-med, I have learned more at this school in 5 months than the rest of my education combined.

    People who get on here and rag on this school have no idea what they are talking about. The motivation of this school is not to make mindless drones. We actually determine what our own assignments are (as long as they contain elements thay are wanting us to learn ie. new algorithms and implementation of databases and/or XML) I have worked on everything from a game where you kill Orlando Bloom to a program our team jokingly called "InLook" (an OutLook look alike)

    Is it that other people and other universities are feeling threatened by a new "something" or is it just that people are ignorant?

    Email me with questions and/or comments please, don't knock the school until you know a bit more.

  • Strange Approach (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 05, 2004 @05:03PM (#9893582)
    Northface can do whatever they like, but I wouldn't drop my money there. There are a couple of issues that I have with their curriculum that make me glad I pursued a traditional university degree instead.

    For example, they are accredited, but it isn't because they had to work for it. From what I understand, they bought a small college that already had been accredited and then changed it and rebranded it as "Northface". Thus, I would be want to see how they fare in their next accreditation cycle before I spent two years there.

    Also, look at their curriculum [northface.edu]. They require 54 credits of General Education, including communications, history, philosophy, and physics. Sound good? It's really not; the same professors that teach the CS classes also teach the general education classes! That sends red flags up for me -- do you think that a Ph.D. in CS knows much about the American Revolution, Mark Twain, or, most of all, Healthy Living (PE 170 in their catalog)?

    In the end, I suppose Northface is perfect for some people, but I am glad that I wasn't one of them.

  • by NorthFaceStudent ( 803165 ) on Thursday August 05, 2004 @09:36PM (#9895804)
    Actually if you were familiar with the curriculum at Northface University you would understand that "training a code monkey" is exactly the opposite of the intentions. I asked some employers what they looked for from a software architect the response was the same, "We need someone that can not only code, but someone that can work on a team." This is something that I have not been able to find at ANY other university. The project teams are hard to get used to, however working in a project team helps "code monkeys" how to work together. Maybe you can't understand this and I don't blame you because I used to feel the same way. But after careful consideration I decided if I was going to make the good money I had to be able to work in a group as well as writing the code.
  • by angryargus ( 559948 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @02:18AM (#9897132)
    For CS what really counts is CSAB accreditation (http://www.csab.org/ [csab.org] ), and Northface University doesn't have this.

    CSAB is now part of ABET (i.e., the accreditation organization for CE and EE). The list of accredited schools is at:

    http://www.abet.org/accredited_programs/computing/ schoolall.asp [abet.org]

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