PVR's Head-to-Head: MythTV vs. Microsoft MCE 327
asciimonster writes "AnandTech has completed its second review of set-top box Personal Video Recorders. After checking out the Linux-based MythTV, previously covered here on slashdot, they compared it to Microsoft's Windows XP Media Center Edition 2004.
'Our analysis has proved that though Media Center Edition 2004 is a boxed package that is easy to set up and configure, it looks amazingly beautiful, has great features such as On-Demand content, and is fully supported by Microsoft. However, for the enthusiast, MythTV takes the gold for its greater support for a variety of hardware and software codecs.'"
Re:MCE is really nice but I am partial to Linux... (Score:3, Informative)
Transcoding happens after the program is finished recording. For best results though, use something with a hardware MPEG encoder to avoid said sacrifices. A Hauppauge PVR-250 does the job nicely. Two do it even better.
I love my MythTV HTPC... I thought about acquiring a Tivo several times, but the benefits of MythTV are too attractive for me.
Re:Myth install (Score:3, Informative)
Re:MCE is really nice but I am partial to Linux... (Score:5, Informative)
If you're channel-surfing the traditional way (up, up, up, up, up, up, up), then yeah, the IR transmitter sucks. There's a good 2 or 3 second delay before the new channel comes up.
However, if you use Tivo the way it's supposed to be used, via the on-screen program guide, or even better -- time shifting -- it's not as much of an issue.
Re:Subscriptionless (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The barbarians have won (Score:3, Informative)
US usage: "It's official,"
UK usage: 'It's official',
Stylistically, the proper punctuation would probably be "It's official:", or "It's official!" for emphasis. Many of us like the em dash, though: "It's official - ".
Re:MythTV and HDTV? (Score:3, Informative)
I'm based in the UK so don't know much about HDTV, but IIRC the only HDTV card that'll work under Linux (and Linux only) is available from PCHDTV http://pchdtv.com/ [pchdtv.com]
Re:DirecTV compatable? (Score:4, Informative)
There are instructions on how to get your Mythbox to change channels on your cable/sat box in numerous tutorials all over the web.
KnoppMyth is a good way of getting Myth up and running quickly, although most seasoned Myth users seem to prefer to use a full fledge distro in order to give easier configuration of all those peripheral devices. Gentoo, Debian unstable and FC1/2 are very popular choices.
Error in the article... (Score:3, Informative)
the feature that puts MCE on top in this screen is the live display on the bottom left.
they must not have used mythtv much, if you enter the programming guide while watching tv, you get a miniature tv display in the corner as well.
Re:MythTV (Score:2, Informative)
Buy a TiVo! (Score:3, Informative)
I speak as someone who put together a Myth box. Used a Via Nehamiah chipset, 120GB HDD, CD ROM, Hauppauge 350 PVR card, all in a box the size of one of my programming texts. And running Gentoo (found some really nice Gentoo specific kernel patches and ebuilds).
Total cost was over $700. Biggest problem I had was that the Hauppage 350 drivers were literally months old. Yes, my Myth box kicks much arse. The web interface is slick, there's plug ins to do MP3 and video (and soon DVD IIRC), but for the amount of $$$ and time invested, a TiVo would have been so much easier.
Re:cost? (Score:5, Informative)
1) I got the (dual 633mhz PIII) PC with TV-out for free. It isn't *quite* fast enough sometimes. Most (95%) of the time it's fine.
2) I got the TV Tuner cards with hardware MPEG encoders for $50 each... 1/3 the normal price.
3) I traded a laptop hard drive for an ultra quiet Seagate Barracuda V 120GB
4) The other $50 was for an I/R keyboard.
My machine is definitely is not quiet, but it can be done (for more money).
Case wise, a lot of people are happy with the ASUS pundit. A lot just use something painted gloss black.
A few people have reported 802.11g to have enough bandwidth to handle video playback. 802.11b will definitely not cut the mustard. I got rid of my wireless gear after getting MythTV and wired my house up. It is (much) cheaper than getting wireless gear, and now I can copy the 2GB video files off at a decent speed. Wireless (802.11g) was SO slow. And the microwave next door or a cordless phone would kill it.
But yes, MythTV is pretty mature these days... In fact, my hardware let me down before the software did. (old 10GB os drive died).
Re:The barbarians have won (Score:2, Informative)
Re:The barbarians have won (Score:2, Informative)
1. That's not irony.
2. That was the point of the parent poster.
obligatory mention of ReplayTV (Score:5, Informative)
Not to beat a not-dead-yet horse, but ReplayTV [replaytv.com] recently dumped a lot of their 5040 units for $50 each, or $30 with a special coupon code (the latter seems to have been a mistake that they cancelled quickly). These are previous-generation models that can transfer shows to other Replay units of the same 50xx model line, something Tivo has not been able to do natively, before, and which is unfortunately dropped in the 55xx line. The 50xx line also has the controversial commercial advance feature, which was dropped on the 55xx line for legal reasons(it sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, but is nice when it works). With lifetime activation at $299 (or monthly fees that now vary depending on number of units), that means RTV is still a platform worth comparing against. Especially when you consider third-party tools like DVArchive [dvarchive.org] (java-based!) that exploit the XML interface of the units to copy programs off for safekeeping and later streaming, without any hacking of the box or transcoding of the native
Oh, one more thing: people outside the US have managed to set up their legitimately-subscribed ReplayTVs with another tool called WIRNS (which you can find in AVSForum [avsforum.com], to scrape local show listings. I mention this because, even if ReplayTV as a company dies, owners will still have alternatives to keep their schedules from going dark. And a lot of owners are also joining Poopli [poopli.com], a website with the objective of making transfers between Replays easier.
(No, I don't work for anybody making or selling these, nor do I own any of these websites. I'm just an owner of a 50xx that I've bumped up to 200GB with a simple patch-and-swap [sourceforge.net], very much like a Tivo owner would do. Before I bought my box, I had almost given up on tv entirely. Now, I'm looking forward to my next hard drive upgrade. And I really regret not buying another unit on sale).
Re:It's great except... (Score:3, Informative)
I haven't done it... but couldn't you use the gatos project drivers [sourceforge.net] with Myth, or no?
just a thought...
e.
Re:the ultimate linux pvr wouild... (Score:1, Informative)
#3 - Myth has both "frontends" and "backends" so that you can have a main backend server that supplies content to any of the frontend machines on the network. My kids have their Myth frontend for watching and scheduling their programs and we have ours (combined frontend/backend) for our programs.
There is a project for MS boxes to watch programs (see sourceforge for details (DsMyth?). You can also use an XBox for a Myth frontend as well.
Re:The barbarians have won (Score:2, Informative)
Re:the ultimate linux pvr wouild... (Score:3, Informative)
If you install KnoppMyth, 2 is taken care of (using the ATI Remote) by executing the command 'install_ati_remote' see http://knoppmythwiki.homelinux.org/index.php?page
I already use MythTV to record on a computer sitting in one room, and play video content through a much quieter computer in my entertainment center that I have set up as a front end. If you want to use a Windows box rather than a Linux box as your front end, have a look at http://knoppmythwiki.homelinux.org/index.php?page
I seem to recall there being instructions as well for using an Xbox as a front end, though I have not been looking for those. From one of the Wiki links you can do a search for Xbox if that is of interest to you, or search elsewhere as well.
Have a great weekend.
-Rusty
Re:As a happy MythTV user... (Score:3, Informative)
i generally agree with your comment
Unfortunately, MythTV took its first real stumble at DVD playback. Using the machine that we installed from scratch in Part I of the analysis, we had zero issues playing DVDs. Under KnoppMyth, the DVD completely refused to play. We would hear the DVD start up, spin and then just hang. Part of this may have to do with copy-protection, part of it may have to do with poorly constructed code. In either case, we can't watch "Nip Tuck" on the KnoppMyth machine without some serious changes to the install. The ability to make changes to KnoppMyth after it has already been installed is one quality that it severely lacks.
i dont think they relized mythtv cant play dvds, you need to setup xine/mplayer to do it (or maybe knoppmyth has a default setting or something). and this is one of the huge features i wish mythtv had. xine functions alright, but it is difficult to setup and sometimes weird things happen like the windows manager will keep mythtv on top while the dvd plays underneath. how i dream of mythtv coming with out-of-the-box dvd/vcd play capibilities. (note mythvideo can be used to files by using the 'internal' setting). otherwise im keeping mythtv. and another note: the brand new .16 release has a revised menu layout which is much more intuitive over the previous version. maybe if they did an update to the article it would be a more accurate comparison. also anyone who hasnt tried out the purple galaxy theme (not yet updated to .16) or the ithmus OSD, should really check those out. They are IMHO much more professional looking than the default look.
Re:Tv guide like CDDB? (Score:3, Informative)
All XMLTV did anyways for North America was query Zap2It, and the DataDirect service of Zap2It that Myth uses now is much less errorprone and much faster, although you have to take a survey every 3 months if you want a free account there.
Re:As a happy MythTV user... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Question on Myth TV (Score:3, Informative)
KnoppMyth can run a front end from the CD, so you don't need to touch the hard drive for watching what has been recorded, but it does not include a back end, so your recordings will have to be on a seprate system.
You can set up a back end system stand alone sitting in the basement, or wherever it is convienent to grab your video feed. Basic specs for a 2 card capture system would be a 1 gig or faster processor, motherboard with 2 pci slots, as much hard drive space as you can afford, and 256 meg of memory. You may be able to do with 128 meg of memroy, but 256 will give you some head room should you decide to expand later.
You can use the same KnoppMyth CD that you are going to use for your front end to build the back end, as you are going to want the software running from the hard disk for that. If you use multiple hard drives you will probably want to learn something about lvm as that is not something that is set up by default.
Hauppauge PVR250 cards are what I recommend as a capture card, and they capture to about 1.1 Gig per half hour of video. (Yes they do go into the back end system.)
The capute cards vary in price but figure around $100 to $150 depending upon who you buy them from.
Hope that helps. Getting the back end running is a geeky experience, so if you are not interested in doing that, then the CD based PVR idea is not going to be much help.
Enjoy
-Rusty
Aaargh (Score:3, Informative)
Just off the top of my head you need to set up:
- XMLTV grabbing and channel numbering. In the UK this is murderous... I ended up writing a scraper for the NTL EPG called tv_grab_uk_ntl, I'll prolly post it to the xmltv mailing list or summat.
- Dual head X. nVidia makes this easyish if you're happy with XF86Config but running GNOME alongside is absolutely infuriating. It insists on drawing those damn bars on the TV display as well, and Myth needs to be focused to work properly. I still haven't found a solution to this. Not being able to use a desktop alongside is kind of a no-no. This is unforgivable because marking a window Always On Top makes it go above the bars. Why doesn't Myth do this.
- Infra-red is a nightmare. You have to muck about with settings.pro to make it link against lirc (ever heard of autoconf?), and there's no graphical toolkit for it so you have to edit lircrc and restart and try it and edit and restart and... Oh yeah did I mention the keyboard interface is REALLY damn hard to usefully map to a remote control? It doesn't even have an explicit PLAY button ffs!
- Infra red part 2. This isn't so much a problem with MythTV but setting up an infra red blaster to work with a cable box is also a pain. I subscribe to NTL so I bought something called RedEye (google for Pace Redeye) and modified the software that came with it a bit to run as a daemon that listens of a FIFO to avoid the startup delay on the device every time the channel needs to be switched. I shall release that patched version back to the owner too once I've got some time spare.
I think this is more to do with LIRC, but LIRC as it is now really feels like some sort of hobbyist kit (complete with the circuit diagrams for rolling your own IR hardware... I just went with an Irman and Redeye to save the hassle). Some GUI setup tools would really not go amiss.
- PAGES AND PAGES AND PAGES of settings, the defaults for which don't make much sense usually. Here's a suggestion, when in doubt do what TiVo does. The default ffwd/rewind behaviour is unusable, it doesn't remember where you left off watching a programme unless you tell it to (why not?). To name just two problems.
- Weird menu system. The setup menus are split almost arbitrarily between mythfrontend and mythsetup, using the system from a remote is very strange (menu navigation and channel switching seems to collide). There is no warning about scheduling collisions so you always have to check the recording schedule. There's no at-a-glance "season pass" editor, so if you want to cancel a season pass you have to find the next instance of the show. Many many minor niggles like this.
- Inexplicable encoding weirnesses everywhere. It either skips and stutters or records in awful quality (on a 2GHz hyperthreading Xeon with half a GB of memory, which the site claims should be able to record TWO streams in MPEG4 at once AND play one back at the same time). Or you spend ages messing about with the recording profiles to get it just right (would it really be so hard to add a 'PAL/NTSC/VGA/Custom' resolution option instead of having to guess that the encoder will only be happy with 740x578 or whatever the hell it is?). I got frustrated with this and got a Hauppage MPEG2 hardware encoder. After getting IVTV up and running on Linux 2.6 with some oddball patched version it then encoded great... except the A/V then began to drift. Back to another round of messing with the settings then recording another programme to test it then messing with them again. Yes I have messed with all the AV sync settings. Should this REALLY require user intervention?
- NUV format with opaque filenames. WHY? Okay if you have it set up to use RTJPEG/NuppelVideo for realtime encoding then yes I can understand this but why use the container after transcoding when the data is in MPEG4/MP3? I know about mythtranscod
Re:Tv guide like CDDB? (Score:3, Informative)
XMLTV is a combination of site scrapers and XML downloaders that myth can use to insert records into the database, and is available for lots of common regions. However, as the parents says, this was often quite ugly. We're beginning to see a shift to commercial services offerring flat XML files for download via Myth, usually for a price (be it marketing info, money, whatever).
From the article.. (Score:3, Informative)
er.. did they not figure what this meant on VCs 1-6?
Login:
In fact it is *necessary* to login to a Knoppmyth install and type lines starting with "apt-get install...." a lot and make changes in an energetic fashion to get things to work! Like setting any IDE DVD drives and HDD's to use DMA before mplayer will actually play a DVD, If I remember correctly, there are also some libs missing - libcss? or something like that. I also added some "luxuries" like the telnet service, NFS client and ftp server to my protoype box...
"..For example, MCE continues to record even if the program is not open
er.. and did they not grasp the concept of MythTV's ability to split the backend (that does the recording, scheduling etc) from the *frontend* - ie the pretty bit you point the remote at. They can even be on seperate machines with several front ends talking to one backend (and probably vice versa but I've never tried this).
Aprt from these strange glaring gaffs a fair old comparison. Strange they chose Myth over MCE in the end though. I love MythTV, but for most punters, it's just not even close to ready yet - it's not exactly hard to install, but to get it working with a high SAF (Spouse Acceptance Factor) takes some effort, and some trial and error with hardware purchases. MCE is ready to go.
Re:Macintosh PVR? (Score:2, Informative)
The rest - Myth{phone|recipe|radio|tivo} (Score:3, Informative)
MythFM Radio, MythRecipe [napsi.net]
and MythTivo [sourceforge.net]
Re:Buy a TiVo! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Second Question (Score:2, Informative)
At the moment it does everything other than PVR functionality (DVD, video, music, pictures, weather etc.), but the TV component is due in the near future. There is a large user base and great community support on their forums [meedio.com].
Re:How Loud is that System? (Score:2, Informative)
You can hear it at POST time (the fan spins up and runs at full speed for a second or so) but apart from that and the awfully noisy DVD-ROM (an old Pioneer DVD Slot-in) there's not a sound to be heard at normal load. I still have to try and run a CPU burn-in test to see how loud it gets then and as long as we're not finished it's standing freely whereas later on it will be put away into a small compartment in a shelf that should further isolate the noise the case fan makes. I can only recommend the Spinpoint HDD though, it's very silent!
Re:semicolon (Score:2, Informative)