PVR's Head-to-Head: MythTV vs. Microsoft MCE

asciimonster writes "AnandTech has completed its second review of set-top box Personal Video Recorders. After checking out the Linux-based MythTV, previously covered here on slashdot, they compared it to Microsoft's Windows XP Media Center Edition 2004. 'Our analysis has proved that though Media Center Edition 2004 is a boxed package that is easy to set up and configure, it looks amazingly beautiful, has great features such as On-Demand content, and is fully supported by Microsoft. However, for the enthusiast, MythTV takes the gold for its greater support for a variety of hardware and software codecs.'"

MCE is really nice but I am partial to Linux...

[garcia]

Unfortunately, we have a large issue with the amount of disk space that the MPEG2 codec consumes. A 15-minute clip of video can take as much as 400MB. MythTV does not perform much better when video is downloaded at high quality, but we have the option to transcode, or re-render the MPEG stream into something a little more versatile. For example, we can compress our cartoon captures down to a lower quality MPEG1 codec without sacrificing much quality; or with a XviD plugin, we can transcode our entire library into MPEG4 in the background. Note that we are using the same Sempron 3100+ processor in both machines!

How well would the transcoding to XViD work when they have sacrificed the CPU to the encoding gods? Wouldn't the machine take a serious hit trying to record and transcode at the same time when they aren't using a hardware encoder?

In this analysis, we are taking video capture from analog cable. We are able to capture digital cable from a digital cable feed as well, but it requires the MCE machine to use a special IR module that actually controls the digital cable box. This can be done with MythTV under LIRC as well.

I have a Tivo and attempted to use the IR modules to control it before caving in and getting the serial control. From what I read the IR control is a pain in the ass and switches channels extremely slowly giving you a lag feel which for some is rather annoying. They don't mention that in this review though.

Of course, on the MythTV machine, we are actually able to skip the commercials entirely. MythTV surpasses MCE completely in this respect. During our tests, 9 out of 10 commercial breaks were skipped flawlessly. ReplayTV's accuracy may be slightly higher than this, but for a free solution, Myth does an excellent job.

This is a minor annoyance for me being a Tivo user. I really wish I could easily do this. FF'ing the commercials is easy and the Tivo does do a good job once you get the hang of it but I would LOVE to see them just gone completely.

From what I can see MCE is really beautiful. You get what you pay for though. I'd love to have the time to play with MythTV (and buy all the hardware) but it seems like you can get the package complete with your DRM'd OS from MS with little pain.

Honestly I am glad that I went w/even less painful option of Tivo but that's me.

Myth install

[JoeNiner]

The biggest problem I remember them having the first time was the Myth (and Linux) install. Then in this review they go with KnoppMyth and gloss over the 20 minute setup...

cost?

[Chuck Bucket]

I looked into this last year, but the holding out point was the cost...it didn't seem to be cheap enough to warrant not buying a Tivo. Still, you wouldn't have to pay the monthy fee (yech!)

Has anyone 'rolled their own' and have a price/features overview? Is it worth it yet?

CBSDFEW@#$%^&*))(

MythTV

[polecat_redux]

It seems great for cable, but how well does it interface with a satellite-based service such as DirecTV? Since in that case, all tuning is controlled by the receiver, MythTV would be helpless - unless you could wire an IR emitter to it. But even then, the software would still have only passive control over the receiver (what if it goes to change a channel, but the reciever is off?).

Tv guide like CDDB?

[Chuck Bucket]

Is there databases out there operating like CDDB for TV shows? I always thought this is what would (eventually) kill the monthly pay Tivo like services.

That would have the 'wow' factor that would make me start to build one of these MythTV beasts.

PCBVS&D*

Re:Myth install

[garcia]

Yeah, they do make it seem trivial to get everything setup with Knoppix Myth as if there is nothing really required from the user to get it going.

From what I understand you still have to install from the CD to the HD in order to get it all setup. It's not exactly like you can pop a KnoppMyth CD into a machine w/a WinTV card and start timeshifting.

You get what you pay for though. If you spend the money on the software you are locked in to what MSFT wants to do (DRM, on demand, etc) but you don't have to spend the time tinkering to get it working.

IPTV

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally I couldn't care about either live or recorded television. I want on demand content integrated into the interface, and so far only MCE does this. Tivo owners will get this too if things go well. The race for the living room has just begun.

Re:MythTV

[JoeNiner]

I believe there is an IR controller plug in (software and hardware). The bigger question with DirecTV is, "Is MythTV worth the trouble and expense, given that a DirecTivo can be gotten cheap, and the monthly fee for DirecTivo is the same as what DirecTV would charge for the 2nd Tuner (which is included in the DirecTivo Box)?" I went with DirecTivo, because it simply works. I get two tuners controlled on one screen, and it is smaller than any HTPC I have seen, especiallyt if you include the 2 (necessary) Sat Tuners. There was a previous thread where a lot of people complained about speed, but I recently had to restart my DirecTivo (due to it not receiving channel info) and it seemed to speed it up as well. Hopefully it is just a software issue that can be improved (though DirecTV may not bother...)

Where does freevo fit in?

[iso]

I'm curious to know where Freevo [sourceforge.net] stands in all of this. I installed MythTV and found it to be very clunky. I recently installed Freevo from the debian packages and had it up and running in literally 30 minutes! It seems a lot smoother than MythTV when using it, and it seems to be more extensible. On the downside all of the Freevo setup is done by editing a text file, but I've found it to be more solid than MythTV so far.

Admittedly I only looked at MythTV for about a day on and off. Does anybody here with more experience with MythTV have an opinion of how MythTV and Freevo compare?

Come over to the Dark Side

[meehawl]

I would LOVE to see [commercials] just gone completely ... I am glad that I went w/even less painful option of Tivo but that's me."

It's not too late to renounce your youthful indiscretion and come over to the dark side. ReplayTV, no commercials [replayfaqs.com], no DRM, internet show sharing...

Re:cost?

[squeegee_boy]

Has anyone 'rolled their own' and have a price/features overview? Is it worth it yet?

Well, since I can't get Tivo service at any price (Canada), Myth works better for me. It's cost me well over $1500 so far, but that's for a 3-tuner backend and two frontends. Not too bad for 3 complete computers.

It sure as heck didn't save me any time, but I learned waaay more than I ever wanted to know about video on Linux. You probably won't ever same money on a roll-your-own, but for me and others, money isn't entirely the whole story :)

Re:cost?

[ePhil_One]

My DirecTiVo's cost me $99, the monthly fee is just $5. This makes it way cheaper than standard Tivo and it can do things the other two boxes can't.

The downside is now I can hear the siren song of the HD DirecTiVo calling to me... Man I need a price drop!!!

Re:Myth install

[rusty0101]

One of the FAQ questions for KnoppMyth is if they will ever build a CD where the server can be run from the CD, rather than having to install it to the HD.

I think the logic is that you could then have pre-defined partitions set up to be the hosts for the database, and the video capture files. Optionally the entire hard disk could be used for program information and recorded video.

With sufficient system memory, you could do what some ISO distributions do, and load everthing to memory, and you would even have the cd/dvd drive available for use.

From what I understand there is no current intent to implement this solution.

-Rusty

It's great except...

[otopico]

It doesn't have support for ATI AIW products. Granted, that isn't their fault.

You can compare features, but until you can compare hardware, it's difficult to say which is more functional for the average user.

That said, I'd go with MythTV just to keep from sending cash to Redmond.

Re:Where does freevo fit in?

[iso]

I got MythTV installed OK, but it was after the install that it felt clunky. The interface was laggy, and it didn't seem to have nearly as many features as Freevo + some choice plugins.

When you say "Freevo doenst have nearly the options or hardware support of Myth," what do you mean? I found exactly the opposite, so I may have missed a lot of stuff. If so, I'd like to know what.

But no one discusses actual output to a TV?

[eufreka]

I got burned a few years ago with a ATI AIW-Radeon...because I wanted to watch the stream not on the monitor but on a big screen TV.

I never could get a good output signal using either a 27" tube or 65" rear projection.

It really put me off of PVRs. But now I do have 3 TiVos which are very popular with everyone in the house...

But does anyone *really* output their PVR (MS or Myth) to an actual TV? (or better yet--modulate it into a housewide video distribution system)?

Re:Uh-huh...

[Combuchan]

You should be mindful of the codec. The .dvr-ms files that MCE produces are ENORMOUS and you can't do a flippant thing with them. I've searched for recoders but my efforts have been fruitless...maybe they're out there now but I don't care anymore as I have myth working mostly OK now.

With Myth, you can automagically transcode to DivX in the background, and have the ability to store far more video files in the same amount of space. Thus, Myth lets your ass-groove flourish because you're not getting up nearly as much to go to Fry's to buy a new hard drive to store recordings. :P

It should also be noted that the latest MythTV also has direct DVD ripping, and has the live TV in the on-screen guide. KnoppMyth should be incorporating this in the future.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

What about the rest?

[LilMikey]

The review adequately covered the TV watching aspects but oddly enough only covered the DVD and CallerID(?) plugins. What about MythGame, MythMusic, MythWeb, MythNews, MythWeather, MythVideo, etc? Does WinMCE have something like these?

The reviewer also seemed to imply that the only way to get an MPEG4 is to record it in the default codec and then transcode it in the background to MPEG4. You can record directly from the card to Mpeg4 (if you have a software based card).

How Loud is that System?

[Greyfox]

Between the combined noise of fans and disk drives, my last system sounded like a freaking 747 taking off. One of the things you get with that commercial PVR is a lot of engineering to keep it quiet. And I can STILL hear my Tivo's hard drive seek when the TV's off.

You could go water cooling or go with an architecture that doesn't need cooling but that will either drive the price up or the CPU power of the system down. Or both.

I'm just curious if the systems they built at the quoted prices would be something you'd want running in the living room 24x7...

I'd love to use Myth, but...

[DHR]

...the only guy working on a linux driver for a MyHD mdp-120 card packed up and went on a Mormon quest until Nov. 2005. http://myhd.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]

Re:I believe they ignored their own observations..

[oGMo]

Actually it seems to be more like saying:

...McDonalds Happy Meals come packaged in a really nice box, looks good to eat, and comes with a nice toy, and is fully supported by McDonalds.

...However, the Home Cooking Restaurant gets our recommendation because it will fit a wider variety of tastes with its various food, drinks, and dessert.

Of course neither one is really accurate; analogies never are. It depends on what's important to you, in the end. MythTV supports a large set of plugins you'll never find from MS (games, ripping, etc.). Plus it's more fun and hackable, and you can get it prepackaged.

Hello? Beyond TV?

[jreberry]

I haven't read every single comment yet, but I've read more than half, and UNBELEAVABLY not a single person has mentioned Snapstream's Beyond TV. I've been using this for a while now and it beats the snot out of a TIVO. First, using two PVR250's I can record two things at the same time, and watch a third program from the Library. This is great for Thursday's because Survivor and The Apprentice are on at the same time. You can skip commercials with just 1 button press. Shows can be automatically compressed to WMV format in the background saving TONS of space. Shows can be burned to DVD's if you want to save space (but with 510Gigs it's not a big problem). This is done at a low priority so you don't notice any performance hit. If your CPU cycles are needed for something else the encoder waits until the CPU has more cycles to spare. Channel lineups are provided free from a web server, this means no monthly fees. Shows can be scheduled to be recorded from ANY COMPUTER WITH AN INTERNET CONNECTION. This means if I'm at work watching TV and something comes on TV that I want to record I just type in my Beyond TV server address, click the channel, and click record. This can be done from many wireless phones too. It's easy to upgrade parts if you need to (more space, HDTV capture card, yada yada). Someone mentioned the drawbacks of using an IR emitter to control your box, but most/all serious HTPC users use a serial cable to control their box/dish. Doing it this way is much more stable than using an IR device. And I challenge anyone to watch my TV and notice any quality difference between Beyond TV versus straight cable, or a TIVO. All my shows are recorded at 8Mb/s, but if that's not good enough, PVR250 cards have the ability to record up to 12Mb/s max. Top notch. I'm just really surprised no one has mentioned this software yet. --Jon

Re:How Loud is that System?

[jreberry]

You can sit 2 feet from my system with no ambient noise in the room and still not hear a thing. I custom made my HTPC box to accomplish just that. The actual computer is disguised as a Subwoofer Box. The outside is half-inch MDF core then a layer of foam then another half inch of MDF core. This gets rid of most noise. All internal components with moving parts are suspended by elastic cords to eliminate vibrations to the box itself. All internal fans have temperature controlled speed sensors to lower their volume. The box was internally designed to efficiently and quietly control airflow. All air comes it through two air vents at the bottom back, air goes across the motherboard, up a chute across all 5 hard drives, across the power supply, channeled horizontally across the upper level of the box and across the DVD burner, and then up and out two exhaust vents on the top of the Sub Box. This keeps all temperatures very low, all components have airflow, and no fans are located near the vents so you can't hear them. It works pretty well, you can't hear it, and everyone always asks where my computer is. --Jon

semicolon

[lakeland]

Coming from a UK background, I would have used a semicolon myself. As in:

"Its official; I'm the ..."

But if I were to use something other than a semicolon, I would choose a comma rather than a full stop.

Content, Uninterrupted

[meehawl]

I have a hard time believing the ReplayTV option is much better

Here's the thing... the ReplayTV commercial skip really is that much better. The fact that it's so much better than Tivo is one major reason the TV companies spent so much time suing the various RTV owners but left Tivo untouched.

As it records the RTV monitors the record stream and analyzes for commercial break cues such as fade-outs, fade-ins, sudden increases in volume normalization, stuff like that.

Along with the MPGs it writes, it also writes associated XML info files with chunk sequence information. So during playback, if you decide to "Skip Commercials", then the RTV just jumps right past those ad blocks. You don't even get a notification that they were there. No fiddling with remote buttons. It Just Works.

Well, around 95% of the time it works. For those other times, you can of course hit a manual 30-second skip on the remote, or customize a button for longer skips, or punch in the number of minutes you want to jump ahead. I'd imagine the Tivo is similar.

The fact that the RTV tags the content chunks has some cool applications. The first is that when and if you decide to move the MPGs over the LAN to your PC/Mac/Linux for editing or conversion to DVD or XVid, then with the excellent RTVTools and ReVue you can choose to transcode the entire stream, or just output the commercial-stripped stream. It's a time saver.

The second cool feature is a consequence of tagging the commercials: inverting playbvack to skip all content and play only commercials. I use this for the Superbowl - just play it back on "Content Skip" and you don't have to fast-forward through several hours of tedious homo-eroticism and tight bums but can just sit back and watch all the adverts uninterruped.

And as for hacking your Tivo to add extra disks and network connectivity, then Bravo! But you know all those things come standard with ReplayTV, right, and the network sharing is unencumbered by HMO's clunky DRM?

I would like to see a better review...

[jriskin]

Unfortunately, to do a real review, you would have to 'live with' each solution for at least a week to get a good feel for it.

There are a ton of solutions these days:
SageTV - Windows
SnapStream - Windows
BeyondTV - Windows
MythTV - Linux
MCE - MCE...
Tivo - Linux Dedicated Hardware
ReplayTV - ? Dedicated Hardware
EyeTV - OS X

Now THAT would be a nice roundup. Start with a feature comparison chart, price, compare the look and feel, reliability, benefits, expandability, etc... Then really get in to how living with each system was and how good the support and updates are, since PVR software is changing so rapidly.

Unfortunately, looking at some specs on a web page just doesn't give you a good feel for what you are getting with PVR's.