Bootlegged Music in Russia

Guppy06 writes "MosNews.com has an interesting article on the thoughts and opinions of everyday Muscovites on the rampant music (et al) piracy in their country. It seems that some of them don't have much trouble justifying it to themselves, with quotes like 'Yes, I know that some of the sellers are here with burned CDs. But they have to earn a living too, I can understand them.' The article also mentions 'In a country where the average monthly salary is about $240, buying the latest album for $15 is a grotesque luxury, let alone spending $600 on Adobe Photoshop or a similar computer program.' Apparently, catchy slogans like 'Listen up, you pirate, I choose copyright!' just aren't working."

Rampant Music! GASP!

[Frennzy]

`Especially that 'et al' type of music.

Man, I'm glad I don't live somewhere that I would have to listen to 'et al' music. And I'm sure there's a lot of people who agree with me, but don't have the space to be a signatory to that here...

When I went to Russia...

[mOoZik]

...EVERY single CD I found in shops were bootlegs. I couldn't believe that people were actually buying them. Some of them were so bad that you could see the inkjet printer lines on the cover/back. Needless to say, I didn't buy any of it, but in some places, people have no trouble with this kind of behaviour.

Thanks Russia for cheap music downloads!

[lothar97]

I guess since things are so cheap in Russia, they get music downloads at $.01 per meg downloaded at allofmp3.com [allofmp3.com]. I wonder if they can afford that. Hey, wait, I can get downloads from there for the same price as the Russians as well!

My research indicates that it's legit, and has been online for awhile. According to the copyright laws of the US, you can "import" things from outside the US, even if they violate US law if purchased here. As long as it's legit where you get it, and you import it for your personal use, you're OK. Kind of the same how you can buy bootlegs outside the US and bring them home. Heck, it even gets good reviews [thetechguide.com]

Plus, they have not ripped me off since May, and so far no one has shown how this is illegal.

While I know it's not Soviet Russia, it's damn cheap. You can download an album for $1.50- and it's legit.

The slogan says it all maybe?

[Saven Marek]

> Apparently, catchy slogans like 'Listen up, you pirate, I choose copyright!' just aren't working

Well if respecting copyright is a choice then why would anyone choose to pay?

The iPod Lite Project [theipodliteproject.com] taking orders soon.

i for one...

[to be a troll]

am quite thankful for the Russian bootleg economy. When travelling through Nepal and India really the only music selection I had was that of Russian imported bootlegs. Which is actually quite vast!! as I recognized many (if not most) US titles... They were also priced cheaply enough that I would not be over-concious in keeping them protected while traveling... In fact it was there I first picked up and listened to an album by the band called Portisehead, whom to this day I would say is one of the best bands in all of existance and who's music is THE perfect soundtrack for touring the third world!!

Re:15 bucks

[Stanistani]

Then again, when I went to my last Comic-Con in San Diego (a huge show, hundreds and hundreds of vendors), at least 50% of the DVDs and CDs were bootleg... my son pointed this out to the security folks... and they almost threw HIM out... what's OUR excuse in the US?

Same in America, comrade.

[Seumas]

Accidentally posted anon (and want to be able to see replies):

It's hard to justify the cost of a CD (or DVD, etc) to anyone in any country, if they've done the math and figured out where the $16 to $20 from each CD is going. Break it down and you'll find that about 75% of the points are going to the label in one way or another. Worse, as much goes to pay for advertising and promotion of the CD as goes to all other places (artist, representation, printing and pressing, shipping) *COMBINED*.

I found the best way to deal with this is just to avoid paying. I don't have cable anymore. I ditched it because the terrible programming wasn't worth $110/mo. I also don't buy DVDs or CDs and I don't go to the theater. Few movies are worth $10 per person these days. What, am I going to blow $20 so myself and a date can go watch Eurotrip? Get real.

I've taken the money I would have spent on the MPAA/RIAA/BSA goons and redirected it toward buying USED books. Instead of $30 to buy the latest ridiculous Spielberg rehash (ooh, this time he added three lighting effects in this one scene that weren't there before!) - I can use that $30 to buy half a dozen good reads. I've been working my way through the Top 100 Science Fiction Books of All Time (excluding the ones I'd previously read). Much better value. And when I'm through, I can hand them off to someone else without worrying about the MPAA/RIAA/BSA sending the FBI to break down my door and put me in prison for four years without due process.

Re:When I went to Russia...

[Skuld-Chan]

Whats funny is you don't have to go all that far to see this sort of thing. Last time I was in BC (in Vancouver) I saw pirated cd's, pirated dc games (in this case they were burned copies with nicely printed covers) and pirated VCD's - these were silver and had nice covers etc - but they sold for like 2$ usd.

Fair Assessment of Russia

[reporter]

In order to do a fair assessment of Russia, we must compare Russia against another state with a comparable standard of living. Let's bite the bullet and directly compare China and Russa.

The Chinese deliberately steal Western software, videos, and music, make millions of copies of such intellectual property, and then proceed to export the illicit goods into the American market [duke.edu]. The pirated copies of, say, Windows XP compete directly against the real McCoy in the American market. The FBI have arrested numerous Chinese for pirating software, music, and videos.

The piracy rate in Russia [state.gov] is 87%. The rate in China (which includes Taiwan province and Hong Kong) is 92%. The rate in Russia is lower than the rate in China; moreover, the Russians do not export the pirated software into the USA to compete against the original manufacturers of the software.

Clearly, piracy in Russia is a problem but is nowhere near as bad as piracy in China.

Re:When I went to Russia...

[pagal_paanda]

I believe what music labels should do is sell localized versions of their music in these countries. What I mean by that is, companies need to sell their music at "localized" rates, so that instead of making no money from these sales, at least they could make some money. Just my two cents.

Same thing in rural parts of China

[psoriac]

I just returned to the US from a vacation in China, and in many of the rural areas (near Yunan, Dali, I was in the southern area) 400 RMB a month is enough to eat, rent an apartment, buy clothes, and still afford a few vcds and dvds a month. That's roughly $50 USD. Do you seriously think those people are going to see a $9.99 USD CD and think "oh what a bargain!"? No, they'll grab the 7 RMB copy next to it instead.

A Dream...

[Brakz0rz]

I dream of a day when the big labels have been completely plundered and real music is again produced by artists/managers/promoters/executives that aren't becoming insanely rich beyond what they deserve. Britney (insert artist of your choice) has not EARNED her millions. Same for movies. I also hope television dies a slow painful death.

If you watch Survivor (insert reality show of your choice) you are crapping on your own brain.

So, kudos to the Russians from a Canadian who cares.

Re:Well duh!

[roman_mir]

Buddy, your hatefull slur has nothing to do with my post. It is beside the point what you are trying to say here. Hodorkovskiy's case is exactly representative of what is wrong with that fucked up country (I have a right to say that, I was born there.) Of-course noone in that country owned anything before 1991. Didn't I say that already? I talked about the elite robbing the country. But it is not the point. Roman Abramovich is free. Hodorkovskiy is not. What's the difference? One is interested in Chelseas and the other in politics.

Putin is a good representative of that culture, after all, he is a former KGB agent.

Everyone tries to make a living ...

[slavik1337]

I was born in Odessa, Ukraine ... which damn close to russia :P (I lived there for 11 years) and just about EVERYONE tries to make a living ... you know those plastics bags that every store gives u in US? in Ukraine you came with your own bags! or you bought plastic bags :-\ (you'd wash them, too) college students re-sell Turkish made ripoffs on markets because after going to a uni, there isn't much hope for them to earn an honest/legal living ...

Re:When I went to Russia...

[Anonymous Coward]

I know for certain that Australia doesn't have any such laws. We have what is known as "parallel importing legislation" over here, which means that CDs, DVDs and software can be imported freely. In fact, a Government-funded organisation (the Australian Competition and Consumer Legislation) started a campaign to get region-locking in DVDs prohibited, with the result that region-free DVD players are widely available here.

I imagine that the same problems with localised prices would arise in the EU, even if the CDs and DVD were imported from Russia through one of the newer members in Eastern Europe.

In fact, the EU is a bigger conundrum, as localised prices would not work at all there, since there are virtually no trade barriers between EU states.

Re:Hey Why Not

[Anonymous Coward]

The independent film industry is rapidly drying up because in part due to piracy. I sold a film earlier this year and was warned if I gave copies to actors before the release and it was pirated then it would be impossible to sell. This was from the distributors. Already the amount they were willing to pay was less than a third what they would pay three years ago. They have a short window to make money before piracy eats into profits. It's easy to call it a victimless crime but it simply isn't true. Music company profits are dropping and the film industry is going through a fundimental change due to piracy. The big guys can absorb a certain amount of piracy but the little guys can't. Ironically in recent years low budget films have made the bulk of their money overseas. Piracy is the strongest in those countries so many of the distributors aren't interested since before they can't even release the film before a pirate version is likely to be on the streets. Even in the US films are showing up on DVD on street corners days or weeks before they hit the theaters. Others turn around so fast they video tape the first showing and by that afternoon bootlegs are being sold. Bootleggers are making money what's wrong with the film maker making money? Same hold true for the music industry. Films are expensive, Albums cost money to produce and software companies have to pay their workers. How do all these people make a living if they are expected to give away their work? That's ignoring all the hardcosts like film stock and sets for films and Computers and offices for software companies. The communist business model only works if the government is paying all costs then you get to pay through your taxes and the government gets to choose what is produced. The capitalist system of buying what you like is a tried and successful model. If the profits go away trust me the availible material will be severely limited. Instead of big budget block busters you'll have some one's home movie to watch. For music bar band gigs don't pay. If they can't make money off albums they can't make a living. All you'll be left with for professional music are the larger groups that can fill big venues. You complain about the Britney Spears types but that's what you'll be left with. Not that many bands will try to turn pro if they know going in there's no chance to make a living at it. What's wrong with capitalism? Shouldn't artists be paid for their work? A collector buys a painting from an artist for $50. Fifty years later after the artist is dead he sells it for 50 grand. Is the artist the greedy one for asking $50? The 50 grand is supply and demand. Few people are concerned with the artist who is struggling to make a living. Most music groups make little or no money for their work as it is. The film industry is headed down the same road. Don't these people have a right to make a living? If their work has no value then why do you want it so bad? You may say it has no physical value but trust me most of it costs a lot to produce. Movies cost hundreds of thousands to millions to produce. They have physical value. You aren't pirating electrons you are taking some one's labor without paying.

Re:The price of music

[suckmysav]

"cover the costs of development and to underwrite further research.

I heard an interview on the radio a few weeks ago regarding just this. I cannot remember the interviewee's name, but I do recall that he was presented as a very credible person from a university who sits (or once sat) on the Pharmacutical Review Committee*. Of course, he may have had a barrow to push, but he certainly didn't overtly bash the drug industry during the interview. If I recall correctly he was being interviewed over the ramifications of the Australia-U.S. Free Trade Agreement and how it might affect Australia.

Anyway, according to that chap, R&D costs account for about 10% of the retail price drugs are ultimately sold at.

Proportionally, most of the costs of drugs (more than 50% IIRC) are taken up by advertising and marketing. He said that executive salaries generally cost the big drug companies more than their research does. He made a point of clarifying that he meant executive salaries, and that he was not referring to the salaries of the scientists at all.

* In Australia, most drugs are placed into the Pharmacutical Benefit Scheme (PBS) which caps the cost of drugs to the consumer (the government makes up the difference) Consequently, any new drug that comes along has to apply to the PBS for entry onto the register, lest consumers be forced to pay full price (which would in turn mean far lower sales of the drug, very often ZERO sales). The PBS is overseen by a committee, which is made up of representatives from drug companies, academics, doctors and politicians. The committee decides on which drugs will be admitted and which will not. Hence, anybody who sits on the committee should have a fairly good idea of how the industry works.

Re:A Dream...

[DarkMantle]

As a musican I've researched the music industry, and decided I want nothing to do with it. I find it funny that Artists are the first on your list of the rich from album sales... Lets break it down...

1.) Band signs deal with label
2.) Label LOANS band money to record/produce their album, this also costs photography/grapic work for the jacket and disk.
3.) Label LOANS band money to have disks made and marketed.
4.) Label LOANS band money to make music video.
5.) Band prays they sell CD's
6.) Album starts selling... 75% of each disk goes to the LABEL the other 25% is divided between the store, marketers, and the artists (and bands split that between memebers.)
7.) Album goes platinum *whew* band now broke even. (After paying back the record label all the loans.)

FACT: Artists usually take 40% of ticket sales for themsleves (travel/food must be paid from this.) The other 60% pays the rent for the building, road crew, ticket vendors, and advertising in the local area.

FACT: Ticket sales have gone up 28% since 2000 (when MP3's became more common)

Conclusion... MP3's are good for the artists ;)

Re:Been there

[t_allardyce]

A great example of how it would be if record labels were taken out of the chain!

Several points to make

[ceeam]

1. I have yet to see a _legal_ foreign origins CD anywhere around here (except MS Windows Home Edition). If they don't want to (properly) sell them here they are better not to complain that people "pirate" them. Also - very few people have international credit cards to pay over Internet.
2. Average salary is a bit of a myth. Hardware costs are higher here than in the "civilized" world but every household has a computer (those who want) and it's probably pretty pepped up.
3. And yes - those russian companies that sell software (1C and stuff) have an ok business around here. I guess MS is also well in the black.
4. Localization! If Autodesk makes a half-assed russian version of AutoCAD they better not expect people rushing to buy it when bootleg localizations are of better quality.
5. Same about music - you do realize that songs in English for most people here are not quite as cool as they are for those who can understand lyrics. Would you buy Hindu songs at the same price?

And anyway - what was the point of posting this article?

Re:15 bucks

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, if they lowered the prices for Russia, then we could just buy music and software there for peanuts, and the publishers would be fucked.

Just hope that what happened in Japan doesn't happen in the U.S. Apparently Japanese pops are a hot thing in many cities throughout Asia right now. But, most people can't afford the $25 a CD (I kid you not!) that most Japanese CD's cost. So naturally, piracy goes rampant. The manufacturer's idea was to lower the prices in Asia, like Taiwan where there is a big market. The CD's are the same, even the liner notes are the same (in Japanese), but the price is lower.

I'm sure you can imagine what happened next. Discount CD shops started importing Japanese CD's from Taiwan, and sold them for roughly half the price back in Japan. Record labels started to shit in their pants.

So they lobbied up and got a law passed. It is now illegal to import Japanese CD's back into the country. Period. Rape your own people will you?

Another issue here is that U.S./European artist's music is also expensive when pressed in Japan (about $20 a CD), but an imported version costs about $13 to $15. What the Japanese record companies did made more sense, in that they released the same CD in the Japanese market with bonus material to compensate for the price. So basically you get a choice: cheap, original version, or expensive but added value version. Sounds fair, and the market seems to work fine.

However, this new law is so broad that it technically makes importing ANY music CD illegal. The importers went crazy, but the gov't assured them that "we won't prosecute non-Japanese music imports. We promise. For now, atleast."

Yeah sure.

My experiences with allofmp3.com

[Anonymous Coward]

I had been using iTunes for a couple of months, and I must have dropped about 60$ in a couple of months, which is a lot of money for me as I basically never buy CDs.

I actually really like iTunes because (to me) the price is reasonable, there is a fairly decent selection and the interface is very nice.

The main problem I had with iTunes is that they didn't have any Beatles songs and there were some Beatles songs I really wanted.

Enter allofmp3.com:

(1) They have ALL the Beatles albums ever released.

(2) You can download in any format you like with no DRM.

(3) $0.01 per megabyte.

(4) You can download a FULL preview of the song (at lower bitrate) and keep it indefinitely. This made me realize that 30 second clips are crap. You can't really tell if you like a song you haven't heard before after listening to it once for 30 seconds.

The downsides:

(1) The interface is kinda clunky. Functional, but thats about it.

(2) You have to give your credit card to shady Russians. That made me a bit uneasy, but so far its been cool.

In short, well worth checking out.

Re:Been there

[nordicfrost]

When I was in Estonia during the Soviet Union era (Just before the revolution), they had a lot of western music in the official stores. These were LP records, republished Beatles etc. Being from Norway, I had never, ever, seen a pirated record and thought it was quite cool! A friend of mine bought a LOT of records there and brought them home, as we are allowed to do here. But the most striking thing was the attitude to piracy. I ask if they knew that the creators of the content weren't getting paid when they bought a Beatles album. The girl I hugn out with there said 'Sure! But culture is the property of people. Besides, you can only sit in one Rolls Royce at the time', refering to the fact that all of the Beatles members had gotten paid for their work, in abundance already.

Re:Maybe they need a new slogan

[beholder]

Actually, this goes both ways.

I believe America has been blatanly violating Russian's copyright for a very large product category for many many years.

What's the product you ask? Machine guns. Specifically, Kalashnikov design that had a world copyright (AK-47). US even resold unlicensed AK-47s to other countries.

I think there was even an article on slashdot about it.

Tit for tat? One Madonna for two pointy AK-47?

Also in other Eastern European countries...

[swiftstream]

I lived the past two years in Ukraine, and it's the same thing there. I remember one of my Ukrainian school friends once complaining that her Photoshop CD got broken... darn, she was going to have to go spend another 5 dollars on a new one. She wasn't one of those $240/month people, either.

I don't think I ever saw legal foreign music being sold there, in fact. Often CD's from local groups were legal, but those are much cheaper than legal american or other foreign ones (about on par with what they were selling the copied foreign ones for... a dollar or two.)

Funny thing in China

[Anonymous Coward]

Since I am working and living in China I am used to the huge amount of DVD piracy here.

We had some korean customers coming to the China office and over dinner we offered to take them to a good quality and very cheap pirate DVD store.

The two koreans looked at eachother and then one replied:
"Why buy DVDs when we can download for free ?"

I guess the piracy industry is getting killed by Kazaa and eMule these days.

Re:Maybe they need a new slogan

[Cryptnotic]

With space shuttle tragedies and experimental satellites crashing into both Mars and Earth, I don't think we would want a rocket scientist in charge of the most powerful country in the world. Personally, I don't think that Bush cares about what other people think. I'm also sure that he trusts his researchers and advisors, the people to whom he delegates the task of finding out what's good for the U.S. So if for example his advisors decide that it is a bad deal for the U.S. to sign the Kyoto treaty, then he won't do it, even if all the other nations of the world are doing it. And yes, I'm sure they weigh the negative effects of not signing on to the treaty along with their calculations too. Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's a good idea.

By the way, the U.S. does adhere to the Geneva convention. Non-uniformed soldiers are not subject to the convention and are not required to be treated in accordance with it.

The real answer is that the music industry realizes their market is "mature" (i.e., not growing at a fast rate). They know that they will sell about N +/- 5% CD's per year, growing at a slow rate of maybe 1-2% per year. Now they want to maximize profits on those N sales per year. The way they do that is keep to keep prices high. Since competition from illegal copiers is unfair competition according to the law, they can use the justice system to shut down those copiers. Despite what you may think they've thought about their business more than you have.

likewise

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never been able to fathom how shallow, repetitive, and, well, stupid popular music/television/etc. is (or, more precisely, how people can make mega-millions off such crap while intelligent music is ignored by most).

On a related note, I have become a big classical music fan in recent years. I would love to see something like "Gnu-Classics", a compilation of recordings of the classical (broadly defined) repertoire where permission is explicitly granted to allow unlimited copying and sharing.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

BS Argument

[gtaluvit]

You could make a CD in Russia from their service and bring it into the US since it would then be a tangible object and be legit. There is no difference here.

Not to mention, we have software "export" laws governing what crypto can go to other nations. By your argument, if I make that software available to someone in North Korea, I'm not exporting, I'm letting them reproduce.

I noticed your arguments on this way back in September and you were one of only two people arguing that this was illegal yet you were nearly HALF the posts. I have no idea why you feel SO strongly on the subject but considering KCTL radio switched to using AllofMp3 (site down, can't confirm) for their content, I don't see where you have a leg to stand on.

English living in Russia

[Loki_666]

Lived in russia (not Moscow or St Petersburg) now for just over 6 months.

I still havnt seen a single legal copy of anything apart from Night Watch (big Russian blockbuster film... totally strange plot but enjoyed it anyway).

When i buy games here (not really bought much music) they are usually on decent quality disks. Sometimes not, youve just got to learn which sellers to go to. Customer service is fantastic. You go up, ask for something. 90% of the time they do, or if they dont one of their mates will have it.. you should see them running around. Went and asked for UK version of X2: The threat. Guy ran around like crazy for 10 mins. Couldnt find it. Said come back tomorrow and the next day it was waiting for me. Most of the games/applications cost (in my city... cant say about moscow) between 60-160 roubles, which translates as roughly £1.20-3.20 or $2-5.5. This is an acceptable price for Russians. Read on one post that average salary is $240/month. I believe most people here are (officially) on less than that. Basic wage for a nurse here is around $50-$100/month. My mother-in-law as head of her department at the university is on $200/month. Of course everyone is on the take and generally supplement their incomes in various ways. The most obvious example is the road police. They will pull you for anything and everything. You can even get fined for having a dirty car or so ive heard. Anyway, they get a decent wage compared to many but the actual money they make is very good because you have a choice. Pay the official fine (and spend a day in a queue at the police headquarters - which is out on the edge of the city) or give them 50-100 roubles and go on your way. Obviously most people give the police money. Been pulled 3 times now. First was for parking in a no-parking zone (the no-parking signs are quite hard to spot sometimes... i think its deliberate). Was still new to russia and didnt understand they system and got robbed for 500 roubles. Next time was just a random passport/licence check, no fine. Next time they claimed i wasnt wearing a seatbelt. Now knowing how to behave i indignatly annouced that "... i am english... we always wear our seatbelts!!" And they let me go without a fine. The policeman still tried to get 10 roubles out of me but couldnt find a reason. Fortunatly i had washed the car recently :-)

One thing to note is that the wife and I left the UK because we couldnt afford to live there. The cost of living is stupid. One of the richest countries in the world? My left bum cheek!! One of the most expensive more like. Both me and the wife had good jobs but by the end of each month we were scratching around for money. And dont even get me started on house prices. Because my wife is Russian and didnt have extended leave to remain they wouldnt take her income into consideration for a mortgage and on my wage alone (just to reiterate... it was a good wage) i could just about afford a one bedroom flat in a crappy part of town. At least here in Russia i have a good job which keeps our heads above water and a nice flat in the center of town. Ok, my car is a Lada but if youve drove on russian roads you will know if you have a foreign car the repair bills will kill you financially.

Ok, got slightly off topic there but back to the main point. Russian people cant afford full price CDs/DVDs. If piracy in russia was somehow obliterated it wouldnt help sales of originals one bit. Who could afford to buy them?

On the point about free trade (notice how companies are all for free trade when it benefits them, and run to the courts crying when they are big fat monopolies and rely on trade restrictions keeping their profits)... oops wandering again... If the company can afford to sell CDs for example $5 in China but charge $15 in the US then its blatantly obvious that they are ripping off those closer to home. Im sure that a lot of people on /. are aware that music and games in the UK cost on average twice what they cost in the US.

Come the revoloution (what revoloution?) im sure the RIAA and MPAA will be the first against the wall....

same for romania.

[mindwar]

I live in Romania. the situation here is as close as rusia. Avarage sallary is WAY low.. in the lines of $100 - $150.. well there are extremly welthy people too but the avarage joe duznt make more then $150. I have no clue how MS expects to sell windows xp for $200 when a new top of the line vid card is at the same price wich would be a great replacement for my almost 2years old geforce4mx440 card, and a pirated winxp sp2 coroprate cd comes at as little as $1. Another problem is lack of software in stores.. the only piece of software you can get here is MS products.. windows xp/me/9x, office, and visual studio(costing in the lines of $1500 or somethin) what should we do? order outside the country? you mean next to software cost wich is this high we should chip in the transport, taxes - this presuming you'd have a way of paying internationaly. Regarding music.. i for one like psytrance. there's no way you can get any cd here. order from http://www.psyshop.com/ [psyshop.com] you tell me? well.. not any good either.. a cd's price is about $16 + transport it will get pretty high. well this presuming you can provide a form of paymant accepted my the site.. (most people here dont have international credit cards or cant use other serivces without paying alot) you guys are crying about $16 per cd? how about $25 or so wich is the price u probably get after all expenses. I have no doubt of the quality of the material in this case and i'd gladly pay it if i'd be able to afoard it. Some idiot was stating earlyer that if you dont wanna pay for the content dont get it. How about if you cant aford it? We should be deprived of all music/movies/software just coz we're not as rich as other people?

Re:Geneva Conventions

[Firethorn]

Actually, the Geneva convention requirements for a uniform could be satisfyed by having requirements for wear with some patches or something. There are also exemptions for counting militia type fighters who 'don't have the chance' to organize and get uniforms. A Baseball cap could count.

The Taliban don't count because:
1) They're not a signer
2) They're a previously organized group, and had plenty of time to get some sort of uniforms
2a) The US revolutionary army managed to get uniforms, were the Taliban poorer than we were in 1776?
3) They were mostly foreign to Afghanistan
4) Deliberate usage of civilians and protected sites in an attempt to protect their forces

On the other hand, we mostly treated them as POW's. The only real problem is the lack of allowed communication(I think they should of had it) and the duration of holding them. The conventions assumed that both governments would still exist at the end of the conflict, and that you'd have strong national ties.

They're a poor fit for the current situation. Something like a third of the prisoners released from Gitmo have been found to have involved themselves with terrorism/freedom fighting again. For them the conflict isn't over. This in and of itself is enough to not release them, even without a trial. You don't have to release POW's until the end of the conflict, unless other factors intervene that renders the POW uncapable of further fighting anyways.

Re:Maybe they need a new slogan

[chthonicdaemon]

a company that actually has to pay royalties to the artists *and* pay the salaries of all the people working to produce and distribute that music CAN NOT "compete" with someone who contributes 0% to the artist or the company that produces the album.

Not so, say I. Imagine someone wanted to sell you a copy of something like a newspaper. Do you honestly think they would be able to produce a reasonable copy for less than the pittance you are paying now? Newspapers have people working for them, writing for them. They have found a model where they get revenue from advertising[1] and can put out a product so cheaply that there is no real fear of 'pirating' newspapers[2]. Of course, large companies also benifit from the economies of scale more than the small-scale "pirate"

The point? Changing markets need new models. The market is changing to a point where perfect copies of CDs are the norm. Time for a new model.

[1] I am not saying that advertising is a valid way to get the music distribution going - it's just an example.

[2] I guess the fact that news ages very quickly helps

Not such a problem for Adobe or Britney

[Keith_Beef]

Look, the whole problem that the corporations (whether Music or Software) is that they see "piracy" as depriving them of revenue.

The argument is, that if I couldn't get a "pirate" copy, then I would fork out the full price for an "official" copy; that my choosing a "pirate" over an "official" copy deprives the copyright owner of revenue.

Of course, if I earn two thousand thalern a month, and can afford to spend twenty-five thalern on the new Britney album, but I choose to buy a "pirate" version for two-fifty, then the record company is right; I have deprived the delicious starlet of some revenue.

However, if I earn 2000 finbinks a month, and when the choice is between spending 1000 finbinks on the "original" or 25 on a "pirate" copy, then there is no real choice. I'm going to buy the "pirate" copy. Since there was no way I was going to buy the "original", even in the absence of the copy, then there is no loss of revenue for the delicious starlet.

Beef.

Organized Crime and the Major Labels.

[clawDATA]

I live next door to Russia.

Several years ago the big labels came over here and made offers to the largest of the criminal underground who were producing pirate music discs.

Several friends are radio DJs, one of them working for a "pirate" distributor (keep in mind, that to these people these are legitimate businesses -- they still pay taxes and keep their noses clean.)

The Western labels told the "gangsters" that if they shut down the other pirates, they can have a monopoly on distribution. They destroyed a true "free market economy" and replaced it with an American/British system of closed distributorships.

As a result, people have died brutal, senseless deaths in the mad scramble to prove to the Western labels who deserved the right to the monopoly.

The end result has been to kill music sales. Simply nobody buys licensed discs. Not only that, but the selection of discs over here has dropped severely. It used to be that you could walk in to a "pirate" music shop and pick up Coil or Autechre, but all there is now is Britney, Back Street Boys, Eminem -- the lowest common denominator that would sell (since the masses aren't buying music, they're only selling what would be most popular.)

The one shining light is mp3.ru, and other similar sites which allow cheap "licensed" downloads (very popular over here). But also peer-to-peer apps are popular.

Interesting point: Russians don't have pirated software or music. It's either licensed, or it's unlicensed. They buy licensed if they require better quality, a warrantee, or technical support, but if they don't need that they'll just get the unlicensed version.

Re:Geneva Conventions

[justins]

I'm no fan of Bush, but I have to give him this: he's not summarily executing people in Gitmo.

How do you know?

A Bitter Protest Against Copyrights

[argoff]

There's nothing wrong with piracy accept for the name "piracy" ....

Preface: At the beginning of the industrial revolution (USA), many bright and well educated people believed that it's entire meaning and purpose was to leverage inventions like the cotton gin to expand their plantations for unlimited growth and profit - they were dead wrong. Today, in the information age, there those who believe that the entire meaning and purpose of the information age is to leverage technologies like the Internet to expand their copyright controls to the ends of the earth. They are also dead wrong, their greed has blinded them to the facts, and they must be stopped at all costs. Like always, they tout their prosperity, impose false (property) rights, and declare fradulent incentives. And like always, their arguments are worthless, evil, and must be challenged....

A Bitter Protest Against Copyrights

If someone said there was no incentive to grow potatoes unless they could rip up your yard and plant some, or there was no incentive to say good things unless can control your speech - most people would see these for the worthless values that they are. But if it was said that there is no incentive to make beneficial or creative works without the right to restrict what people copy (copyrights), then all of a sudden people just take it on faith. They don't even question it, they just assume that society would fall apart without them. But the Renaissance happened without copyrights, so why can't the information age?

Incentive does not a right make, and calling copyrights "intellectual property" is intellectually dishonest. While the moral and historical foundation of property derives from physical limits and mutual respect, the foundation of copyrights derives from kings who granted publishers monopolies in return for not publishing bad things about the monarchy. So rather than being an equivalence relationship, copyrights are more like a form of censorship. In fact, copyright monopolies cheapen property rights by treating things that have natural limits in supply such as food, shelter, and medicine like information that does not.

Worse, is how people who copy are slandered with names such as thief and pirate, as if copying was akin to boarding a ship and murdering people. They are even accused of stealing food out of the mouths of starving artists. However, these verbal assaults hide a cruel lie, the one that says - "copyrights benefit creative people". Well, the truth is that for every artist or writer that has made it big, there are literally unmentioned thousands who copyrights haven't helped a bit, hindered, or even destroyed. For most creators free copying simply increases the share for their personal demand. But with copyrights, some are even bared or sued from sharing their own creations in public. Others die with the world never truly knowing their artistic genius as the mass media drowns them out. Rather than helping the creative, copyrights destroy them, and deceive them while doing it.

However, these aren't the only problems associated with copyrights. They are just a sample of many that are constantly blown off, glossed over, or ignored. Like the failures of Hollywood culture, the failures of big media to provide quality material, the failures to provide reasonably priced books to college students while tabloids are dirt cheap, and massive anti-trust behavior in the software industry to name a few. And then these very same industries ask, well "how will we make money without copyrights?" Like a disingenuous thief asking "how will I feed my children without old ladies to mug?"

The problems associated with copyrights might have been bearable a quarter century ago when the biggest issue was copy machines. But today, in the information age, information is so easy to copy and manipulate that there can be no middle ground. Our society will either have to control all of it or none of it. Our communications will either have to be monitored or free,