TiVo Plans More Functionality Reductions 521
TiVo has been in the news recently with a couple of plans to make their service less useful than it could be: first, TiVos will now auto-delete pay-per-view and video-on-demand movies, and second, TiVo is making sure that you can't use a TiVo to view NFL games outside the specified market area. TiVo's lawyer explains.
Glad I have myth (Score:5, Insightful)
Should read (Score:5, Insightful)
-phixxr
TiVo Shoots Self in Foot (Score:4, Insightful)
Knew it (Score:2, Insightful)
PPV (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't understand the problem. With Pay Per View, you are QUITE SPECIFICALLY buying a license to watch a movie once. You are PAYing PER VIEW.
There's no ambiguity about buying physical media vs the content, about buying a license, and so on. You're paying to have a movie playing to your sat/cable box at a specific time and date. Done.
Too Many KneeJerk Responses (Score:5, Insightful)
No, what will kill TiVo is all of television, TV, and sporting leagues suing the pants off of them for providing something that the can prove is illegal (like viewing NFL games outside the specified market area). This is a setup to allow people to share shows amongst TiVos, but making sure they have a legal basis to not get sued.
TiVo has already been hacked (and TiVo doesn't punish for it), so how long do you think it'll be between when TiVo allows program sharing and someone hacks it so you can avoid these new rules?
probably due to new tivos with dvd-r (Score:5, Insightful)
like this one tivo / burner from pioneer [pioneerburner.com]
Jesus, don't blame Tivo. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:PPV (Score:1, Insightful)
I mean, who in their right mind is going to spend $50+ on a wrestling PPV if I don't end up with copies for everyone who pitched in for the event? Sure, we did it with VHS tapes, but the concept is the same!
Movies are no different. I still have a few tapes floating around with old PPV movies on them. I even remember my cable provider had a special channel dedicated to describing their service, and they talk about why you would want to hook your cable box up to your VCR: to record PPV events, as well as anything else you see.
Next time you order a PPV, tell me where you sign the license entitling you to one viewing and one viewing only. Or maybe you can point it out in the terms of service of my cable provider.
Or, maybe not.
Who can blame TiVo? (Score:2, Insightful)
Not a big deal (Score:4, Insightful)
All the NFL is asking TiVo to do is not make recorded programs available for transfer while that program is still being aired. Once the game is finished, feel free to shoot it over. Of course, that would take hours of bandwidth at current speeds, so it's not really an issue anyway.
I'd rather have companies like TiVo work with the content providers to reach agreements rather than have companies sue each other over supposed 'copyright' violations.
Re:Too Many KneeJerk Responses (Score:2, Insightful)
Not a big deal (Score:4, Insightful)
Plus, TiVos are indeed pretty hackable. In contrast to other manufacturers (eg. Microsoft put in a lot of effort to make sure the XBox was "unhackable"), TiVo doesn't really seem to mind people modifying their hardware all that much. And there are a lot of people who have "modded" their TiVos, even if it's just to swap out the harddrive for a bigger one. If you really want to permanently record a show, there's really nothing they can do to stop you. All they can do, is make it harder.
Business vs. Business (Score:5, Insightful)
Where I can see this being used is the sports bar market (for example). You get a bunch of sports bars nationwide which agree to stream each other the games from each market. Now the major cable/dish networks lose the revenue from each of those bars buying a premium sports package. Multiply this by tens of thousands of interested businesses, and it adds up to a significant amount. It seems to me that this is the real issue at hand.
Well, I've owned a Tivo for (Score:5, Insightful)
These debates always boil down to those who are willing to pirate and those who aren't, but we can mask it as a "Fair Use" or "Consumer Rights" issue to keep the post count rolling. As far as Tivo goes, I watch a show, I delete it, I don't need to archive it for historical purposes and I have no right to do anything else with it. If it's really great I'll buy it on DVD and if it's like most shows I won't care. I'll bet I am in the majority of Tivo owners on this usage pattern yet people act like this policy somehow infringes on my right to use the device and it's content as described.
I know it's hard for some of you to accept, but not everyone purchases consumer electronics to discover exploits and alternative uses, and most people are willing to accept some limitations for the added convenince that Tivo brings. Most people aren't pirating off ST:DS9 and editing out the commercials for their personal archive or for uploading to usenet. It's hardly a stretch to imagine your downloaded copy of Gigli is time limited and you have no friends, so stop playing that hacked version of Counter Strike Source with the aimbot you just found and watch your damn rental.
Victimhood (Score:5, Insightful)
[Wish I could offer you a job, but (a) we're not hiring and (b) we're not in Ohio. But integrity and understanding right and wrong are high on my list for qualifying applicants. And getting harder to find.]
a counterpoint to the Tivo will die threads (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:PPV (Score:5, Insightful)
So quite why your post is rated 'Insightful' is beyond me.
Re:PPV (Score:4, Insightful)
Huh?
Party 1: Give me legal ownership of your house or equivlent money and I will let you watch/own this movie.
Party 2: Agreed.
Ok, the Party 2 might be dumb or smart depending on the worth of his house or if he gains rights to something he believes is worth the house.
But how does Party 2 knowing all his rights makes the agreement invalid?
Re:PPV (Score:5, Insightful)
Or, more likely, they're doing it to stave off possible legal challenges from the purveyors of PPV movies and NFL football. Said purveyors may have already made an issue of it behind the scenes.
Re:PPV (Score:5, Insightful)
That may be what the provider intends, but unless there is law backing that up, I am entitled record it and view it later as I please.
Standard copyright case law allows me to timeshift, and I didn't sign any contract with the cable company that said I specifically couldn't record a PPV show.
There's no ambiguity about buying physical media vs the content, about buying a license, and so on. You're paying to have a movie playing to your sat/cable box at a specific time and date. Done.
As I just pointed out, you're just plain wrong. I don't need a license as an end user because standard copyright law allows me to timeshift the show without one. There is no license. I payed to have the movie play on my box, and I'm entitled to save it for later viewing.
Re:Too Many KneeJerk Responses (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Who can blame TiVo? (Score:3, Insightful)
Wow, even my rednecked father has stop using this particular turn of phrase ...
Who uses TiVo to "keep" things? (Score:3, Insightful)
sensational? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:They just lost 3 sales. (Score:3, Insightful)
Why? Were you planning on building a huge library of PPV movies and blacked out NFL games?
Not much to see (Score:3, Insightful)
The PPV one is a little more disconcerting. Don't really like the idea. Not that I ever get PPV movies, but I don't like auto-deletion like that.
But let's be real: does anyone think TiVo WANTS to do any of this?? This is TiVo making small concessions to help hold back the onslaught.
Re:PPV (Score:4, Insightful)
If you aren't going to watch it again, then why do you need to keep it?
if anything (Score:3, Insightful)
accelerating their own death (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent is right about this one. Tivo's real fear should be all of the cable/satellite PVRs that are on the market. The true tivo "fans" will quickly turn when unremovable restrictions are enforced. Let's face it, the guy who's hacking a tivo could just as easily build a mythtv box or a windows equivalent.
This whole issue illustrates a point I've been pointing out on /. for quite some time: It is impossible for movie/music companies to stifle the free flow of information. So tivo's going to be controlled now, oh well, time for any capable geek to move on to another technology which circumvents these measures. More importantly, time for the inept masses to look to the geek for their solutions as well.
Something that the majority of people don't understand, even our president doesn't understand, that, is that you cannot rule a mass of intelligent motivated people with mandate. Look at the comparisons, prohibition, the war on drugs, the "war" on music "piracy", all failing, and rather miserably. Why? Because the motivation of the people and the means to accomplish these goals is far superior to that of the government trying to prevent them.
So sure, let tivo slit their own throats an inch at a time, I'll still watch my ripped movies and I'm sure NFL fans will find a workaround as well.
Re:PPV (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:PPV (Score:3, Insightful)
There are alot of assumption you are making.
Suppose my house is a cardboard box?
Suppose you gain ownership of Gone With the Wind or Citizen Kane?
In any case, I would find it hard to believe that any serious judge would hear the case just based on single, sole fact that one party feels they paid too much, with no other factors involved.
If that was true, the courts would be jammed and you would never buy or sell anything.
Re:Knew it (Score:3, Insightful)
PPV doesn't preceed DVD/Video, because otherwise the purchase and rental markets would suffer.
The movie industry is all about milking the customers completely before going on to the next field of cows.
Re:PPV (Score:3, Insightful)
"We've been selling media for years and nobody has had the equipment to make perfect copies (because it was too expensive or completely unavailable), so that now the technology has made the equipment widely available, it should be banned".
Re:Who can blame TiVo? (Score:1, Insightful)
actual TiVo users know... (Score:2, Insightful)
I Would/Will be Furious - Bait & Switch! (Score:5, Insightful)
To reduce functionality after you've bought a unit sounds like fraud. Bait & switch. Like buying a fast sports car, and then having them download a patch into your engine computer that speed limits it to 85MPH so that the car company won't be sued for selling fast cars. I'd be looking for a class action lawyer to sue the pants off of TiVo if my box suddenly stopped doing something it used to do -- regardless of any license agreement that may have come with it.
And it's such a great way to advertise to new customers. Buy the new TiVo. It does less than the old model!
Now my question is: will this apply to my Dish Network PVR?
Violation of fundamental consumer's rights (Score:1, Insightful)
If corporations can invest, produce, sell their goods and services globally in order to take advantage of the lowest costs in different regions, then consumers should have the same right: to buy goods and services globally, in order to get the best price.
Any attempt to block this right should be considered as violation of fundamental consumer's rights and illegal.
Period.
If you want global economy, fine. But global should mean global both for corporations and customers.
Re:Not much to see (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe so, but does blacking out the TV actually increase ticket sales? Our city is doing the experiment, and as far as I can tell (they're not releasing numbers as far as I've heard) bringing the blackout back doesn't seem to be upping attendance.
I live in San Diego, where we didn't have black-outs the last few seasons, courtesy of an a$$-raping contract between the Chargers and our crooked-as-a-twisty-straw city council that guarenteed them the revenue of a sell-out for every game-- the city would pay them full ticket price for every unsold seat. After much wrangling and public outcry, that clause has been terminated, and every non-sellout home game (which is every game excapt the Raiders) is now blacked out.
Know what? I don't know a single person who's gone to more games because of it. My group of friends averaged one or two games a year, and we're going to one this year. They lost the TV revenue, and it doesn't look like they're upping seat sales-- the blackout just makes people not care as much. I used to watch pretty much every home game, and the Chargers got the TV revenue from it. This year, I don't even know what their record is, haven't made the effort to watch the away games in a while, just don't care anymore. That is not good marketing.
Tivo, here is what needs to happen (and some tech) (Score:3, Insightful)
People laugh about the Xbox, Linux, and Microsoft loosing money since the thing is supposidly sold as a loss leader. But Tivo, Nooo can't touch that.
I called Tivo to inquire about how to add one of those "Press thumbs up to record" to a commercial. They wouldn't talk, they referred me to buy a $30,000 system that inserts the "push thumbs up to record" into the program signal. A EEG Line 21 encoder/decoder in raw mode and a commercial on VHS later I figured out how it was stored but haven't continued to research. They weren't nice, they weren't overflowing with joy. MY opinion is they took Replay's business, kind of like a Microsoft if you will.
So how does the Tivo work? Is there a software framebuffer rendering the menus to MPEG2 then pushing it to the decoder hardware? My roomate got a new Tivo and upgraded for someone, and I got the chance to peek inside. The new Tivos are using Broadcom KFIR-II chips for MPEG2 encoding (and probably decoding?). These chips are already usable under linux via the Pinnacle PCTV Deluxe USB unit. They use the exact same MPEG2 chipset, I put one of my PCTV boards next to the tivo, and the chips are identical in revision, size and everything else.
It is my guess that people could make an open source OS replacement for the Tivo hardware platform that would introduce all of the features that Tivo is taking away. Hell, might even be able to make it run on a BSD varient, NetBSD powered Tivo... bring it ON!
I'm really curious how the Tivo renders the menus... outside of this, I can't think of any really difficult obstacles, unless the architecture is very very proprietary (MIPS core on the new boxes, PPC on the old..).
Re:PPV (Score:3, Insightful)
It's a copyright violation, not a depriving-me-of-income violation.
-ec
Re:PPV (Score:5, Insightful)
Because it's a perfectly good and valid argument: if someone looks at my house, considers buying it, but then decides to build a copy instead, I have no right to demand they pay me money.
No, it isnt a perfectly good and valid arguement, and that analogy is just plain laughable.
The simple fact is that 'intellectual property' is an attempt to artificially create scarcity in an environment where there is none: at best it's a moronic abuse of government power, at worst it will prevent a truly information-based economy from arising. It's nothing more than the modern equivalent of buggy-whip manufacturers conspiring with the government to keep those new-fangled automobiles off the road.
If there wasnt an artificial scarcity on hard to produce, easy to copy items then really how many films would we be enjoying now? How many authors would be producing best sellers? How many musicians would be producing works? How many computer/console games would be being released? I will tell you now, not many at all. When it comes down to it, the majority of items produced for this 'artificial scarcity' are produced for money, not love, and without the artificial scarcity we would have rather less entertainment.
Like it or not, Hollywood is a huge industry which employs a massive amount of people. Those people arent doing it for love, they are doing it to eat. Would they be there if their wages were on a charity basis? Hell no. They are there for the same reason you are at work, money. There may be a very few at the top end that are doing it for love.
If we had to rely on amateur works to fill the void this industry would leave behind, then the world would be a dull place. Sure, youd get some gems (like Linux) but then you would get tonnes and tonnes of drivel (majority of sourceforge). Tell me when the last popular free book written in modern times came. Tell me when the last popular free 3d FPS was released. Tell me when the last amateur film made it big, got shown in cinemas world wide. You cant. For the most part, a lot of people dont have the resources to produce Doom3 or Titanic in their spare time (for that is what they will be doing, they have to earn money to eat as well).
Next time you claim the artificial scarcity is an abuse of power, just think of the diversity and entertainment value that that scarcity has produced. Unless theres money involved, chances are it wouldnt happen otherwise as people dont have the resources. Software is an exception, because resources required are small for entry into this field.
MythTV, Freevo etc.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Has taken me a good week and a half just to get a DVB card functioning in Linux. Had to play with bios settings like PCI delays to get the card to function. When it works 100% it will be great, but it's not friendly enough for most people yet (it's been ruining my sleep and i'm relatively good with Linux).
Re:Too Many KneeJerk Responses (Score:4, Insightful)
For the past decade or so, blackouts were prevented by the city purchasing all the unsold tickets-- every home game was a sell out, courtesy of the taxpayers. This year, the clause was killed and so non-sold out home games (which is every home game) is blacked out. By the NFL's logic, therefore, you'd expect higher attendance at the game, right?
So far, with three home games this season, average attendance is DOWN 14% [canoe.ca]! It looks like even the perennial biggest seller of the year, the Raiders game this weekend, won't sell out and so will be blacked out. The net result of the blackout? NOBODY CARES. The chargers are having a pretty decent season (4-3 so far, usually we're 1-6 at this point) and NOBODY CARES. When you take the games off the TV, the audience doesn't take it upon themselves to spend $100 each to go to the game, they just find something else to do Sunday. Lost ticket revenue, lost TV revenue, lost fans. Idiots.
Re:Should read (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Build your own... (Score:1, Insightful)
Potential Problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Screen Scrapers are counter to revenue models so at a certain level you can expect an arms race.
If Zap2It offered a reliable data feed for $3/mo, how could you argue with that? A good service costs money to operate. Heck, I pay $7/mo to listen to a radio show online, but that's alot more bandwidth.
If you figure a 5-person shop could offer a data feed with operating costs of about $350,000 per year you'd need twenty thousand subscribers to make a meager profit. Probably do-able.
If I were Zap2It I'd probably offer the $3/mo feed or a free feed that could be decrypted by authorized players which would agree to show ads.
Someone smarter can work out the crypto on how to do that when you have the source.
It's called pay-per-view for a reason (Score:1, Insightful)
Because you can't trust them. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:PPV (Score:4, Insightful)
Each of those occurrences similarly highlighted the same thing: people are willing to pay for content, particularly if it is made convenient and useful to them.
Similarly, plenty of music, art and literature was created prior to the institionalization of modern copyright. Modern technology lowers the barriers to entry into the content-creation world; even without imposing artificial scarcity, if content was created absent such protection while it was harder to make, by what rationale is it predicted that less will be made when it's easier to make, even without that protection?
Re:Glad I have myth (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:PPV (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, yes I can.
Books: "Free Culture", "Down and out in the Magic Kingdom"
Film: Blair Witch
FPS: Don't game much, but I'm quite sure others could fill the gap here and point out some amazing stuff done by amateurs without profit in mind.
Sure, lots of amateur stuff is shlock, but lots isn't, it just doesn't get the publicity of corporately sponsored products and thus often doesn't get noticed irrespective of any value. Don't you read whenever a story on major label music comes up on Slashdot and everyone starts posting about all the good indie music they've found once they tuned out the corporate media?