HD-DVD Wins Support of 4 Studios

An anonymous reader writes "Looks like HD-DVD has won the latest round in the Blu-ray/HD-DVD format war. Toshiba announced today that 4 major studios (Warner,Paramount,Universal, and New Line) have endorsed the HD-DVD format. Toshiba also said it will use AACS for content protection, which is basically just CSS with better crypto & no ability to recover from security failures."

Re:ETA & MSRP?

[igny]

Someone does.

HDTV != DTV

[The Cisco Kid]

The mandate makes absolutely no requirement that broadcasts be HD (High Def) - only that they stop using analog transmission and go to digital. The FCC's motiviation is to get a lot of spectum back, and MPAA/broadcasters motiviation is they get the 'do not copy' concept.

While I wouldnt mind if the spectrum was freed so that there could be some unlicensed bands to enable 802.11 style equipment for consumer use, I'm sure licenses for the newly freed TV bands will be auctioned off to megacorps instead. I'm just hoping that they dont just sit on them to prevent competition for high speed services.

Why do so many people confuse High Def and Digital - they are *NOT* the same thing, nor do they always go hand in hand.

You *CAN* broadcast HighDef in analog, and you *CAN* broadcast digital, and still be using standard definition (and if stations are forced go digital, it isnt all that likely that they will switch to HighDef)

Re:Windows Media 9

[the_2nd_coming]

umm, actually, no. HD dropped it because MS lied about its abilities.

Re:Even if...

[elfezzer]

The author(s) of the cryptography.com article agree with you (though it seems likely that the encryption itself will not be the primary subject of attack):

Unfortunately, pirates will attack high-definition disc formats. Due to the large number of different player designs and usage scenarios, some attacks will succeed. As a result, long-term format security depends on having the ability to recover effectively.

Revocation can help contain some attacks by preventing future titles from playing on a pre-chosen set of players. For example, if studios learn that pirates have hacked a player with a specific serial number, revocation makes it possible to author future titles so they will never play on that player.

Missing the mark?

[GoRK]

SPDC and Format Security

Formats with Self-Protecting Digital Content(TM) solve this problem by enabling discs to carry their own security software that runs in a tiny security interpreter (VM) in each player. This software can identify and correct security problems in the player, re-establishing secure playback without revoking legitimate users' players. This capability is called system renewability or true renewability.

Who thought this up? Emulation of a player's security VM in software would eliminate the renewability of the security anyway, just as a comprimised key would. You'd have to resort to revoking the ability of a certain hacked or emulated VM to decrypt the content anyway.

This whole thing is asinine. With the right equipment you can make bit-for-bit copies of CSS-protected DVD's, thus "pirating" them withouth having to break any security whatsoever. It would be reasonable to assume this may be possible with any HD disc format as well. With any HD player, unless you integrate the codec processor into the security processor, you can probably build some hardware to get at the decrypted datastream too (169time.com [169time.com] does this type of hack).

DirecTV and digital cable and all that use this same model, only this replaces the smartcard with essentially a more limited type of smartcard on each disc. The model works with directv because to hack it you must be able to decrypt the live stream for immediate viewing. With a DVD this is not the case - you only need to be able to decrypt it once then distribute the decrypted copy. Only one person need have a hacked piece of hardware to accomplish this. This is where the true "priacy" is taking place anyawy. All this new junk does is just make players more expensive and discs harder to watch.

Re:WTF?

[shades6666]

So just because you own a DVD player that was hacked, you won't be able to play future DVDs? That's a load of crap.

I'm not sure if you're trolling for people who haven't read the article or posted before you finished reading it yourself, but the paragraph you quoted was arguing against revocation. It's quite clear from the next two paragraphs and the first requirement listed.

From TFA: Revocation is completely ineffective, however, if pirates develop tools or instructions for hacking a popular player model. This is the most common kind of security failure in consumer devices, because attackers who have figured out how to compromise one device can repeat the same technique against others with the same design. While some revocation technologies could shut off all players in an entire model line, the harm caused to legitimate consumers makes this unacceptable.

SPDC and Format Security Formats with Self-Protecting Digital Content(TM) solve this problem by enabling discs to carry their own security software that runs in a tiny security interpreter (VM) in each player. This software can identify and correct security problems in the player, re-establishing secure playback without revoking legitimate users' players. This capability is called system renewability or true renewability.

Requirement #1: High-definition disc formats must support renewable security logic.

Re:Windows Media 9

[PeeCee]

HD dropped it because MS lied about its abilities.

Where did you hear that?

Here [slashdot.org]. But it says they were considering dropping the WMV format... who knows what'll happen in the end.

Re:HDTV != DTV

[R2.0]

"While I wouldnt mind if the spectrum was freed so that there could be some unlicensed bands to enable 802.11 style equipment for consumer use, I'm sure licenses for the newly freed TV bands will be auctioned off to megacorps instead."

Yes, they will be auctioned; part of the point is for the Feds to make money.

" I'm just hoping that they dont just sit on them to prevent competition for high speed services"

Unlikely; one of the basic FCC rules is that licenses must be used. If a licensee doesn't use the spectrum, it becomes subject to having the frequencies reassigned to someone else.

Re:Very misleading

[tuffy]

That is incorrect. CSS was designed to use lots of keys so that some could be revoked on future DVDs if they were compromised. The problem is, because CSS' encryption method was so poor, Xing's unencrypted key was all that was needed to break the algorithm. So no matter what keys CSS uses on a disc, DeCSS can find a matching one in a very short amount of time.

The Xing key helped get to this point, but it's far from necessary now.

Re:Plus Minus

[natron 2.0]

Actaully BR and HD DVD formats use the same laser, so it should still be compatible with the HD format.

Re:Very misleading

[tuffy]

Okay this makes sense except...wasn't CSS encryption 40-bit? That's obviously not as secure enough to be impossible to brute force...but it's still fairly difficult even by today's standards.

The Wikipedia article [wikipedia.org] claims a home computer can brute-force CSS in 24 hours. I don't doubt it. But DeCSS runs in seconds, so it's largely a matter of convenience now.

No MP3 in VCD

[benwaggoner]

Actually, VCD uses only Layer II audio, not MP3. There aren't any controlling patents or licensing fees for MPEG-1.

Your general point is very apt, of course. Except for VCD, virtually all media technologies require various patent licensing, and in practice these haven't resulted in any company gaining undo control over the technology. It just means that makes of encoders, players, and/or content have to pay a fee to make the stuff. But the licensing contracts don't let a company revoke or re-negotiate the license after it has been launched.

Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD

[djohnsto]

Blu-Ray is a better format than HD-DVD. They will both include security measures to prevent copying, but:

- blu ray has a special coating that is meant to eliminate 90+% of handling scratches to the disk.
- blu ray holds more data (changes in materials and tolerances).

They both require the same 3 codec support in the player (MS WM9 (VC-1), MP4 (H.264) and MP2). They both need blue lasers. They both will use next generation Dolby Digital and DTS sound formats for 7.1 (or higher) surround sound. The only reason HD-DVD is even in contention is because the manufacturing methodology is nearly identical to normal DVD. Therefore, the same factories and materials can be used to produce HD-DVD and normal DVD content. With Blu-Ray all new equipment needs to be purchased and the per-disc materials costs is higher. So, the studios are faced with the following choices:

- Use a more consumer-friendly (scratch resistant, more data) format, or
- Use a format that gives us more profit.

Wonder which one will win? :(

Re:Not on your life.

[dougmc]

Fair Use allows you to copy your DVD, no matter what the corps say.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. I am quite aware of my fair use rights, and certainly pay attention when they're whittled away. I even give money to the ACLU and EFF in the hopes that they can slow the whittling somewhat.

The post I was replying to was talking about `professional pirates' --

Actually, the professional pirates would not have to decrypt anything

...

and assuming that piracy here means copying DVDs and selling them, and not plundering ships at sea (I don't like the definition, but nobody consulted me before first using it), then this copying wouldn't fall under the fair use provisions. Or do you disagree?

What I was saying is that you don't have to break encryption to violate the DMCA. There are other ways ...

Re:Plus Minus

[marcansoft]

Not so basically, +R has much better lossless linking support and +RW offers Mt.Rainier support (although i've yet to see it used) and a better technology for modulation of information (wobble instead of pits between tracks. Easier to manufacture too).

Otherwise, they are read the same way.